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[G] PvZ 7:30 3rd base

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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CodECleaR
Profile Joined November 2010
United States395 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-15 14:25:18
August 09 2012 15:17 GMT
#1
Preface: I'm a 14 year old high masters protoss player, currently hovering around 1.5k points, and I was growing fed up with the style of pvz; the timing centric nature of it, being forced to attack before broodlords finished or crossing my fingers for a lucky vortex. Playing versus zergs who denied pre BL timings and spread their army well enough to negate vortexes, I was prompted to find a composition/style of play that was reliable and was viable no matter how long the game went on. This is the result.
_________________________________________________________________________

Part 1: FFE and Zealot/Stalker Poke

Open up with your preferred FFE opener; this is the one I use:
+ Show Spoiler +
9 pylon
14 forge (rally 12th probe)
If he didn't go early pool (11poolish), 15 pylon at his natural, if not 15 pylon at your's
18 nexus (rally 18th probe, should be CB'ing probes until now)
18 cannon
20 pylon if you planted the earlier one at his natural (chrono on 19)
20 gateway
20 Grab both gasses
21 chrono probes


After opening up with your fast expand build,
+ Show Spoiler +
-Chrono +1 weapons once
-Drop your cyber core and build a zealot.
-Build a stalker and start warpgate research, chrono'ing both--don't forget to build a pylon before or during stalker so you don't get supply blocked!
-Constant probe production throughout this phase, no additional chrono's spent on probes.


You want to be rallying zealot to watchtower by your base, then either to his natural or his 3rd, with the stalker following behind shortly thereafter. The goal of this poke is to scout a speedling timing or sling/bling play, and to force zerg to produce more zerglings than usual (perhaps getting a queen kill and drone kills in the process). Try as best you can to keep the zeal and stalker alive as they are essential to defending a reactionary speedling bust at your 3rd.

If you see speedlings or more zerglings than normal, abort your early 3rd mission and instead go towards twilight tech, maybe a charge/archon or blink timing, depending on if you see only speedling (maybe banelings) or roaches peppered in, respectively.

Note: One of the reasons why a zeal/stalker poke is better than a zeal/sentry opening is because most pressure builds look the exact same to the zerg as this part of the build does. If you are a player who uses zeal/stalker openings constantly, no matter what build you do, it makes all of your builds opaque and keeps the zerg guessing, preventing them from executing a blind or slightly uneducated counter.
_________________________________________________________________________

Part 2: Back at home during your zeal/stalker poke and securing your 3rd base

Right after the stalker finishes building,
-Build a sentry and a pylon
-Construct a robo when resources permit (robo production order is observer->3-5 immortals, with chrono being constantly spent on the robo)
-Grab third and fourth gasses after robo, again as resources permit
-Pylon at 3rd OR Pylon at ramp to natural (always put it at the ramp to natural if you can; obviously you can't on all maps)
-Continue making sentries and probes throughout all of this and spend all your chronoboost on probes.
-Cut probes once you are fully saturated at each base.
-Throw down your nexus anywhere from 7:30-7:45
-Put down 3 more gateways either at 3rd or ramp to natural, a cannon behind them as well. Here are the positionings on various maps:
+ Show Spoiler +
Daybreak: [image loading]
Cloud Kingdom: [image loading]
Metropolis: [image loading]
Ohana: [image loading]
Entombed Valley: [image loading]

-Resume probe production
-Start hallucination and +1 armor, chrono boost both constantly

Rally all units to your 3rd, using warpins primarily for sentries (obviously adjusting if you see speedlings at a tower, or something of the sort). Hug your nexus with units at 3rd or put them in minerals if it's a map where you wall off ramp to natural. After your 2nd immo finishes, rally 3rd and 4th immo's to natural ramp/natural and warp in 4sentries at the top/at natural.
_________________________________________________________________________

Part 3: Midgame Responses and Priorities

Assuming you have secured your 3rd (not finished up, just have units there in defensive position), have immortals on the way and you have defended a slow ling attack/one hasn't happened, your observer should be reaching his base. As soon as hallucination finishes you want to constantly have a phoenix patrolling his bases until you see a tech structure thrown down. You can also opt not to get hallucination until you dont see anything in his main base with obs, then you know he might be hiding something and need to get a faster scouting unit (poser phoenix). Another option is to start halluc but cancel it if you see a tech structure finishing up with obs (meaning he cant cancel and juke you).
Note: In all of these responses it is necessary to get 5th and 6th gasses at your third as soon as it finishes.

Here are the responses I've come up with for various zerg tech paths:
Spire:
+ Show Spoiler +
Dedicate all warpins to stalkers, start twilight council and focus on armor upgrades rather than attack upgrades. Remember to wall off your 3rd (if applicable) and start cannons in 2nd and 3rd mineral lines. Initial stalkers should be in main. Tech to storm and have 2 templars each base with a few stalkers. Take your 4th and defend it while either going for a timing, if he's made a lot of mutas and they haven't done much damage, or defensively macro until you have a super army.


Quick Infestation pit, all gasses taken, waves of drones being produced, and fourth (or fourth and fifth if z is inexperienced playing vs quick 3rd style):
+ Show Spoiler +
Start up a twilight council immediately as you see infestation pit, start charge and templar archives. Continue building immortals, stop at 5 or 6, start warp prism(s), and go up to 12 or 14 gates, going zeal/archon warpins. Attack once all your additional gates finish up. The reason you go for this timing is that an early infestation pit lends itself to ling heavy play as all of the zerg's gas is going towards infestor/roach or infestor/hive tech. If they go early hive, you can't take a 4th base and passively macro because z will have bl/infestor army before you can get vr's. mothership, and archons out in time. On some occasions I have been able to secure a passive 4th while executing warp prism harass, but it only works some of the times and therefore doesn't seem like a viable followup.


Quick infestation pit, all gasses taken, drones not being produced en masse, macro hatch, no fourth on the way:
+ Show Spoiler +
Ling/infestor attacks on your 3rd and natural. You want to follow the same response as you would versus the quick infestation pit with 4th/5th otw, except you want to cut immortal production (few roaches will be mixed in), and prioritize getting a high gateway count over starting +2/using your robo. Bank as much gas as possible b/c you need archons to defend infested terran spam. After defending his attack(s), go kill him or take your 4th and 5th (you should be able to defend both because his army will be small and tech inefficient).


Hydralisk Den:
+ Show Spoiler +
Rather than going twilight then robo bay, go robo bay then twilight, sim city up your 3rd with cannons and gates, continue upgrading attack and grab blink+collosus range along with collo's. Blink/collo doom push with warp prism after you hold off hydra/ling or hydra/roach bust and have at least 3 collo along with forcefield energy.


No tech choice seen with obs or first phoenixes, only roach warren, no 4th taken, macro hatch, and not all gasses are taken:
+ Show Spoiler +
Roach 200/200 timing is coming. Continue making immortals until you have six total, three at natural ramp/natural and three at third. You want to rely on immortal/sentry with a splash of stalkers, as well as your walloffs with cannons, to defend this. Start a twilight council and robo when money permits and keep defending with forcefields and ranged units while preparing for your own 200/200 timing with +2 attack/+1 armor and 2/3 ranged collo. Defend, tech up to death timing, attack, win because he can't afford broodlord/infestor when a max roach army deals little to no damage.

_________________________________________________________________________

Part 4: Late Game Army Composition and Control

Preface/The Composition: + Show Spoiler +
The current metagame in pvz revolves around landing a vortex or two to negate part of the zerg army while engaging the rest, hopefully getting an archon toilet off. However, you cannot negate a large portion of zerg’s army if he splits his broodlords up, so much so that you can get only 3 or 4 in a single vortex. Sniping off fringes of his army in that situation doesn’t really work because of infestors/spines under the bls. The solution to this is a voidray focused composition, complete with ht’s, archons, carriers, and a mothership.


The Beginnings of Your Very Own Super Army: + Show Spoiler +
While either taking your 4th passively after holding a timing, or taking it while doing a pre BL timing, you want to add a stargate and a fleet beacon once that completes. Start +1 air attack and continuously pump out vr’s from your stargate, and add on a MS when fleet beacon finishes. While your 4th is going up, use zealots left over from mid game and/or warp prism harass in order to buy time/slow down zerg even more. After your 4th is up, along with your 7th and 8th gasses, add on 2 stargates--3 if you have gas floating--and keep pumping vr’s out of them while researching storm and finishing up all your ground upgrades as well as your air attack upgrades. Grab 5th base along with 9th and 10th gasses when you feel secure. Continue to do zealot/dt harass all the time throughout these phases! Doing that will only make your composition stronger by taxing zerg’s resources, and to an extent, mechanics going into your final engagement(s).


Exact Composition/Priorities in Engaging: + Show Spoiler +
The exact composition you’re aiming for is 8-10 ht’s, 6-8 archons, 4-5 carriers, 1 mothership, and the rest of your army supply should be in skillrays...er voidrays. With this composition and constant harassment, you never have to attack into the zerg, instead relying on base/tech snipes with your army+recall or with drops to deal offensive damage. Never, ever attack into zerg--the most sure way to win is to never attack and continue doing damage to him and keeping him on few mining bases. Play like Dimaga. Except Protoss. In the event that the zerg doesn’t concede and tap out losing half his bases to zealot/dt harass and he comes, attacking into you, the priorities you should observe during/before the battle are as follows (in descending order; from most important to least important):
1. Feedback infestors; fungal is the only thing that can beat this composition, so you don’t want any going off. You might ask, “Well, why can’t I just spread vr’s and not worry about denying fungals?” The answer is that if you spread the high number of vr’s you have to the extent that only 3-4 can be hit with a single fungal, you allow corruptors to float around the fringes of your army, quickly destroying portions of your army and retreating.
2. Land storms on corruptors; with your voidrays stacked, corruptors tend to stack up in a group too, when attacking, allowing you to destroy his corruptors in a few storms. If he does spread his corruptors, you still have enough storms in ~10 ht’s to kill them all, and you need not worry about fungals going off on your vrs. If he does fly over your army and wants to force you to storm yourself, instead use archons to focus fire the corruptors, doing even more damage to them than storm would.
3. Land good vortexes, nullifying whatever part of his army you can, getting a huge archon vortex if you’re lucky.
4. Make sure your army is not on a move command...that would be bad.

_________________________________________________________________________

Replays:
+ Show Spoiler +
Vs. Mutalisks: http://sc2shr.com/uo
http://sc2shr.com/vD
+ Show Spoiler +
1st Replay Notes: We both played poorly, I allowing ling runby’s constantly, losing bases, while he didnt upgrade his air units properly. More of a replay showing how to deal with mutas with this build rather than a replay exhibiting good late game play.

Vs. Hydra first: http://sc2shr.com/up
+ Show Spoiler +
Notes: This is vs. Daisuki in the NA playhem daily; he said he was trying out something new so not sure about the quality of this hydra/ling/roach bust/style. I do think that since mr. daisuki is doing it, though, it will be up to par with a high masters player doing a refined version of the build.

Vs. Early Infestation Pit; Charge/Archon timing->late game: http://sc2shr.com/uq
Vs. Early Infestation Pit; Passive macro while using prism to slow down zerg’s attack:
Vs. Roach max timing: http://sc2shr.com/vF
+ Show Spoiler +
Notes: The most important aspect to holding off this timing attack is having good mechanics. Use location hotkeys, split your army up, don’t get supply blocked, remember your tech, and you will defend it without a problem. In this particular game, I didn’t have enough sentries at the natural ramp and ended up having to walk back and forth b/t bases relying on obs scouting. In an ideal situation, you want to be forcefielding the ramp and picking off units every time with a few units up top. As long as your 3rd stays up, you are going to win. However, it is hardest to hold on daybreak due to width of ramp, but it is possible to do in a much cleaner way than I did. It’s hard to get replays of this play style because no one does it anymore, but I’ll try to convince my practice partners to do it and will have more replays for you guys soon .

Vs. Roach/Infestor 3base:
+ Show Spoiler +
Notes: Whilst playing vs any infestor based timing, using any strategy in PvZ, remember to spread out your army pre engagement.



More replays on the way
How do you beat a terran who's hardcore turtling off 3 base? Flip him on his back and walk away."
CheesusCrust
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany58 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-09 15:38:42
August 09 2012 15:32 GMT
#2
I salute you as a zerg for trying to go into late game in PvZ. I think the 2base timings from P has hold this match-up back in its development for too long. Can you also hold off the aggressive responses (200 roach, roach/inf, ling/inf) from zerg if they complement drops + burrow in?
Depetrify
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
978 Posts
August 09 2012 15:38 GMT
#3
On August 10 2012 00:32 CheesusCrust wrote:
I salute you as a zerg for trying to go into late game in PvZ. I think the 2base timings from P has hold this match-up back in its development for too long.


The problem is the mother ship and death balls.
CodECleaR
Profile Joined November 2010
United States395 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-09 15:46:37
August 09 2012 15:46 GMT
#4
On August 10 2012 00:32 CheesusCrust wrote:
I salute you as a zerg for trying to go into late game in PvZ. I think the 2base timings from P has hold this match-up back in its development for too long. Can you also hold off the aggressive responses (200 roach, roach/inf, ling/inf) from zerg if they complement drops + burrow in?


Personally, I've never played against roach/inf or ling/inf drops and those come so late that you should have a collo out in time. However, roach/ling max with drops (comes 1min-2min ish later than stephano style roach max) is the hardest timing to hold as protoss across all the matches, in my opinion. With this build, you want to utilize hallucination and observer to scout lair researching something, along with a macro hatch and lack of tech besides roach warren. Cut probes and go up on your gateway count, adding cannons everywhere and switching from sentry/immo production to zeal/stalker/immo production. Don't mine from 5th and 6th gasses. Seal off your 3rd. Split units according to how many ovvies you scout going in which direction with your hallucinated phoenixes (sp?). A cool little trick to dealing with drops is if they decide to unload in a zone (pressuing d and clicking on a map/zone rather than clicking on ovvies so they unload whilst moving) is forcefielding under the overlords, forcing everything to squeeze into a few hexes of space. Not sure if this works after the patch though, considering they fixed it with medivacs...
How do you beat a terran who's hardcore turtling off 3 base? Flip him on his back and walk away."
Serdiuk
Profile Joined January 2011
Belgium145 Posts
August 09 2012 15:53 GMT
#5
I like the buildup, it seems really safe.

But when you take a third base, don't you try to kill the Zerg in the pre broodlord timing with near max Colossus Blink stalker around 15-16 mins before taking a 4th and going lategame?
CodECleaR
Profile Joined November 2010
United States395 Posts
August 09 2012 15:58 GMT
#6
On August 10 2012 00:53 Serdiuk wrote:
I like the buildup, it seems really safe.

But when you take a third base, don't you try to kill the Zerg in the pre broodlord timing with near max Colossus Blink stalker around 15-16 mins before taking a 4th and going lategame?


I'll only go for the collosus/blink stalker timing if the zerg goes roach max or hydra opening; then the collo/blink stalker timing is the most effective pre broodlord and it's best to punish the z for going a weak opening that delays his bl's if you can. You can still do this vs a ling/inf opening or a hive rush as it is very effective, but it's not the ideal optimal timing/style in that situation. Effective but not optimal. However, you should take a 4th right as you push out as the push shouldn't kill a 'competent' zerg. Your aim in this push, rather than killing the zerg, should be to kill 4th/5th (if applicable) and reduce his infestor count, even killing his 3rd if you can. Then you want to retreat to your 4th, which should have 7th/8th gasses done, and fill up the supply you lost in the timing with vr/mothership/ht. Then do attacks around the map, recalling if you get chain fungalled/will lose your army, slowly replacing supply for super army.
How do you beat a terran who's hardcore turtling off 3 base? Flip him on his back and walk away."
Mahv
Profile Joined April 2011
Denmark4 Posts
August 09 2012 16:18 GMT
#7
Good guide as it is thorough and covers almost anything. However, what do you do against roach, hydra, corruptor?
I am not young enough to know everything.
CodECleaR
Profile Joined November 2010
United States395 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-09 16:41:12
August 09 2012 16:28 GMT
#8
On August 10 2012 01:18 nagthirteen wrote:
Good guide as it is thorough and covers almost anything. However, what do you do against roach, hydra, corruptor?


You can go blink/stalker collo and a-move. Mr. Morten...why? :S

EDIT: On a serious note, defend with sentry/immortal/stalker while getting quick collosi out, 3base timing, don't take 4th so you can commit more heavily. If z puts that much gas into hydras/hydra tech then they cant have bl's finishing at nat/3rd while you take out 4th/5th so you can just kill him.
How do you beat a terran who's hardcore turtling off 3 base? Flip him on his back and walk away."
myRZeth
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany1047 Posts
August 09 2012 16:33 GMT
#9
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342021

what do you think makes your build better than mine?
i mean you re going robo before 4 gates, that means you re open against mass ling attacks, they basically just kill your 3.
i think your build is too greedy to be considered safe

CodECleaR
Profile Joined November 2010
United States395 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-09 16:53:58
August 09 2012 16:38 GMT
#10
On August 10 2012 01:33 myRZeth wrote:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342021

what do you think makes your build better than mine?
i mean you re going robo before 4 gates, that means you re open against mass ling attacks, they basically just kill your 3.
i think your build is too greedy to be considered safe


I never made the assertion it was better than yours. Or even similar to yours.
Nevertheless, I'd say that it doesn't probe cut as much, I've read your guide and I think it's a reliable, safe style You're not open to mass ling attacks with good building positioning/ffs on the maps I've put building placements for in the guide. However, on a map like condemned ridge or shakuras/antiga I would choose to go 4g robo then expo rather than 1g robo expo because there is too much space b/t bases or 3rd is too wide open to just defend 3rd off of a few sentries and building positioning.
How do you beat a terran who's hardcore turtling off 3 base? Flip him on his back and walk away."
myRZeth
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany1047 Posts
August 09 2012 16:45 GMT
#11
On August 10 2012 01:38 CodECleaR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2012 01:33 myRZeth wrote:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342021

what do you think makes your build better than mine?
i mean you re going robo before 4 gates, that means you re open against mass ling attacks, they basically just kill your 3.
i think your build is too greedy to be considered safe



I'd say that it doesn't probe cut as much, I've read your guide and I think it's a reliable, safe style You're not open to mass ling attacks with good building positioning/ffs on the maps I've put building placements for in the guide. However, on a map like condemned ridge or shakuras/antiga I would choose to go 4g robo then expo rather than 1g robo expo because there is too much space b/t bases or 3rd is too wide open to just defend 3rd off of a few sentries and building positioning.


yeah i think your build is just a some kinda greedier version of mine
and without offending you, but i don t think you can hold your expo vs the opponents i play against
las91
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States5080 Posts
August 09 2012 16:59 GMT
#12
Great build, and I'm stoked to see some younger talent that isn't Korean changing some of dat metagame. I personally love the air/ht composition so I'll have to give this build a try next time I ladder!
In Inca we trust
AGIANTSMURF
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1232 Posts
August 09 2012 17:01 GMT
#13
The weakness to this build is when zerg decides to go for an earlier speed timing.

I use a similar build to this on occassion. I played against Destiny and as I poked with my stalkers he made about 20+ lings, I thought to myself i can just retreat to my cannon....

Nope! speed finished at like 7:20 and killed all my stalkers and then continued to just do enough damage that I was forced out of the game
Thats "Grand-Master" SMURF to you.....
CodECleaR
Profile Joined November 2010
United States395 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-09 17:26:45
August 09 2012 17:04 GMT
#14
On August 10 2012 01:45 myRZeth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2012 01:38 CodECleaR wrote:
On August 10 2012 01:33 myRZeth wrote:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342021

what do you think makes your build better than mine?
i mean you re going robo before 4 gates, that means you re open against mass ling attacks, they basically just kill your 3.
i think your build is too greedy to be considered safe



I'd say that it doesn't probe cut as much, I've read your guide and I think it's a reliable, safe style You're not open to mass ling attacks with good building positioning/ffs on the maps I've put building placements for in the guide. However, on a map like condemned ridge or shakuras/antiga I would choose to go 4g robo then expo rather than 1g robo expo because there is too much space b/t bases or 3rd is too wide open to just defend 3rd off of a few sentries and building positioning.


yeah i think your build is just a some kinda greedier version of mine
and without offending you, but i don t think you can hold your expo vs the opponents i play against


Your build probe cuts for a minute and ten seconds, approximately, which is unneccessary versus a gasless 3 hatch player (assuming no gas after 3 hatch->speed finishing around at 6:45). I also don't think that in your guide you explain in detail responses in the mid game; efficient responses which lead up to a very strong late game. That is not to say your build/guide is poorly written or bad--I'm not saying that at all. Just would like to make it clear that at every level of play there are always going to be ways for people to exploit a scouted build order. For example, I have lost to my clan mate mahv a lot with this build when he knows it's coming for sure. It goes without saying that there are zerg players that are capable of taking advantage of this or any other build, but the fact remains that it is a solid, defendable build against an opponent of equal skill. There's no such thing as the perfect build order or everyone would do it, and then it would get nerfed. Take the example, reactor hellions. Therefore, this is a build like any other, it has strengths and weaknesses and benefits from scouting and reactive play.
I'm around the middle tier of high masters, so I wouldn't say I know everything about this game, and I'd love to have better players than myself try it out and validate/destroy it.

EDIT so no double post:
On August 10 2012 02:01 AGIANTSMURF wrote:
The weakness to this build is when zerg decides to go for an earlier speed timing.

I use a similar build to this on occassion. I played against Destiny and as I poked with my stalkers he made about 20+ lings, I thought to myself i can just retreat to my cannon....

Nope! speed finished at like 7:20 and killed all my stalkers and then continued to just do enough damage that I was forced out of the game


Hey guy, remember me from ladder (our record is 0-5, in your favor ....or is it 0-6 now)
Disregard what I had wrote previously. You need to scout gas at ~4:20 ish to deviate from early 3rd build. Zerg can't do a reactive speed build that can threaten you, only grab gas early for some schenanigans, which you need to scout and react to. My mistake.

How do you beat a terran who's hardcore turtling off 3 base? Flip him on his back and walk away."
myRZeth
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany1047 Posts
August 09 2012 17:16 GMT
#15
On August 10 2012 02:04 CodECleaR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2012 01:45 myRZeth wrote:
On August 10 2012 01:38 CodECleaR wrote:
On August 10 2012 01:33 myRZeth wrote:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342021

what do you think makes your build better than mine?
i mean you re going robo before 4 gates, that means you re open against mass ling attacks, they basically just kill your 3.
i think your build is too greedy to be considered safe



I'd say that it doesn't probe cut as much, I've read your guide and I think it's a reliable, safe style You're not open to mass ling attacks with good building positioning/ffs on the maps I've put building placements for in the guide. However, on a map like condemned ridge or shakuras/antiga I would choose to go 4g robo then expo rather than 1g robo expo because there is too much space b/t bases or 3rd is too wide open to just defend 3rd off of a few sentries and building positioning.


yeah i think your build is just a some kinda greedier version of mine
and without offending you, but i don t think you can hold your expo vs the opponents i play against


Your build probe cuts for a minute and ten seconds, approximately, which is unneccessary versus a gasless 3 hatch player (assuming no gas after 3 hatch->speed finishing around at 6:45). I also don't think that in your guide you explain in detail responses in the mid game; efficient responses which lead up to a very strong late game. That is not to say your build/guide is poorly written or bad--I'm not saying that at all. Just would like to make it clear that at every level of play there are always going to be ways for people to exploit a scouted build order. For example, I have lost to my clan mate mahv a lot with this build when he knows it's coming for sure. It goes without saying that there are zerg players that are capable of taking advantage of this or any other build, but the fact remains that it is a solid, defendable build against an opponent of equal skill. There's no such thing as the perfect build order or everyone would do it, and then it would get nerfed. Take the example, reactor hellions. Therefore, this is a build like any other, it has strengths and weaknesses and benefits from scouting and reactive play.
I'm around the middle tier of high masters, so I wouldn't say I know everything about this game, and I'd love to have better players than myself try it out and validate/destroy it.

EDIT so no double post:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2012 02:01 AGIANTSMURF wrote:
The weakness to this build is when zerg decides to go for an earlier speed timing.

I use a similar build to this on occassion. I played against Destiny and as I poked with my stalkers he made about 20+ lings, I thought to myself i can just retreat to my cannon....

Nope! speed finished at like 7:20 and killed all my stalkers and then continued to just do enough damage that I was forced out of the game


Hey guy, remember me from ladder (our record is 0-5, in your favor ....or is it 0-6 now)?
On your post, by 7:20
a) your obs should reach his base and see speed+lings popping
b) +3 gates should finish and you should dedicate 1st round of those warpins to 4 zeals
c)2/3 pylons should be down at 3rd, allowing you to have a semblance of simcity and forcefield properly
Again, these are assertions that I'm making--haven't seen the replay so I can't be certain for sure. If you have the replay lying around please PM it to me or post it. Would be much appreciated.
Also you mention stalkers; did you poke with more than one stalker? Just curious if i can make some improvements to the build!

Of course, on the topic of early speed, by 6:45 if you see speed with zeal/stalker poke you should transition out of this build into a 4g +1 -> blink stalker or chargezealot/archon allin as you cant hold the 3rd on most maps vs that early speed.



the guide i wrote is just about the opening
it s not about the transitions in particiluar, i m just explaining the defence vs mutas, because this is the only agressive counter my readers could think about
also it s not easy to write a guide in a foreign language, so i m trying to keep it short
i don t like your build, because just like AGIANTSMURF said, it s has a hard counter, this is a big point i don t like
CodECleaR
Profile Joined November 2010
United States395 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-09 17:31:31
August 09 2012 17:28 GMT
#16
My mistake on the stuff i wrote above--need to scout early gas or see tells (a lot of lings being produced/queens on 2nd/3rd late) in order to deviate and counter 3base sling. Worst scenario is that you cant scout gas due to queen range/good micro and you are forced to cancel 3rd and retreat to nat. In that case stay behind a few warp in rounds then move out and take 3rd
How do you beat a terran who's hardcore turtling off 3 base? Flip him on his back and walk away."
Kreos.Z
Profile Joined March 2011
United States37 Posts
August 09 2012 17:28 GMT
#17
I don't think there's any one build that can or should be able to be strong against every single viable opener. In order for a zerg to have speed finished by 7:20, he would need gas started by 4:20. There's no way that a zerg could reactively scout for a quick third base (before 8 mins) and get speedlings up to "hard counter" the build, it would have to have been his intentions from the beginning of the game to get early gas, which is not beneficial/characteristic of a 3 hatch build. Against early gas, you would be forced to deviate and take a slightly later expansion which is completely okay since the zerg will have lost drones mining gas, and lost drones making the 20+ speedlings needed to force the expo to cancel. There is absolutely nothing wrong with turtling up a couple of warp-in rounds and taking a later expo if the zerg is also cutting economy.
Eifer
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States138 Posts
August 09 2012 19:12 GMT
#18
On August 10 2012 01:59 las91 wrote:
Great build, and I'm stoked to see some younger talent that isn't Korean changing some of dat metagame. I personally love the air/ht composition so I'll have to give this build a try next time I ladder!


This won't be 'changing the metagame' as players have been doing it for over a year
FabledIntegral
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States9232 Posts
August 09 2012 19:20 GMT
#19
On August 10 2012 01:59 las91 wrote:
Great build, and I'm stoked to see some younger talent that isn't Korean changing some of dat metagame. I personally love the air/ht composition so I'll have to give this build a try next time I ladder!


While Koreans may responsible with changing the metagame due to their refinement of strategies and number of spectators that view their games, they are, in my opinion, not any more likely to come up with innovative strategies than NA or EU. Rather, strategies originate elsewhere and are popularized once seen in a big game.

Just as in this case, if this build was to change up the metagame (which isn't even completely accurate since it's already been used), it wouldn't be due to this user, but rather a Korean executing the build in a televised match.
basballguy
Profile Joined November 2010
United States35 Posts
August 09 2012 20:40 GMT
#20
Why did you put your "age" in this post like it was relevent? More importantly, why would you lie and say you''re 14?

You can accomplish everything you're asking for in this thread without pretending to be 14.

User was warned for this post
It's not always rainbows and butterflies; it's compromise that moves us along.
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