Preface: I'm a 14 year old high masters protoss player, currently hovering around 1.5k points, and I was growing fed up with the style of pvz; the timing centric nature of it, being forced to attack before broodlords finished or crossing my fingers for a lucky vortex. Playing versus zergs who denied pre BL timings and spread their army well enough to negate vortexes, I was prompted to find a composition/style of play that was reliable and was viable no matter how long the game went on. This is the result. _________________________________________________________________________
Part 1: FFE and Zealot/Stalker Poke
Open up with your preferred FFE opener; this is the one I use: + Show Spoiler +
9 pylon 14 forge (rally 12th probe) If he didn't go early pool (11poolish), 15 pylon at his natural, if not 15 pylon at your's 18 nexus (rally 18th probe, should be CB'ing probes until now) 18 cannon 20 pylon if you planted the earlier one at his natural (chrono on 19) 20 gateway 20 Grab both gasses 21 chrono probes
-Chrono +1 weapons once -Drop your cyber core and build a zealot. -Build a stalker and start warpgate research, chrono'ing both--don't forget to build a pylon before or during stalker so you don't get supply blocked! -Constant probe production throughout this phase, no additional chrono's spent on probes.
You want to be rallying zealot to watchtower by your base, then either to his natural or his 3rd, with the stalker following behind shortly thereafter. The goal of this poke is to scout a speedling timing or sling/bling play, and to force zerg to produce more zerglings than usual (perhaps getting a queen kill and drone kills in the process). Try as best you can to keep the zeal and stalker alive as they are essential to defending a reactionary speedling bust at your 3rd.
If you see speedlings or more zerglings than normal, abort your early 3rd mission and instead go towards twilight tech, maybe a charge/archon or blink timing, depending on if you see only speedling (maybe banelings) or roaches peppered in, respectively.
Note: One of the reasons why a zeal/stalker poke is better than a zeal/sentry opening is because most pressure builds look the exact same to the zerg as this part of the build does. If you are a player who uses zeal/stalker openings constantly, no matter what build you do, it makes all of your builds opaque and keeps the zerg guessing, preventing them from executing a blind or slightly uneducated counter. _________________________________________________________________________
Part 2: Back at home during your zeal/stalker poke and securing your 3rd base
Right after the stalker finishes building, -Build a sentry and a pylon -Construct a robo when resources permit (robo production order is observer->3-5 immortals, with chrono being constantly spent on the robo) -Grab third and fourth gasses after robo, again as resources permit -Pylon at 3rd OR Pylon at ramp to natural (always put it at the ramp to natural if you can; obviously you can't on all maps) -Continue making sentries and probes throughout all of this and spend all your chronoboost on probes. -Cut probes once you are fully saturated at each base. -Throw down your nexus anywhere from 7:30-7:45 -Put down 3 more gateways either at 3rd or ramp to natural, a cannon behind them as well. Here are the positionings on various maps: + Show Spoiler +
-Resume probe production -Start hallucination and +1 armor, chrono boost both constantly
Rally all units to your 3rd, using warpins primarily for sentries (obviously adjusting if you see speedlings at a tower, or something of the sort). Hug your nexus with units at 3rd or put them in minerals if it's a map where you wall off ramp to natural. After your 2nd immo finishes, rally 3rd and 4th immo's to natural ramp/natural and warp in 4sentries at the top/at natural. _________________________________________________________________________
Part 3: Midgame Responses and Priorities
Assuming you have secured your 3rd (not finished up, just have units there in defensive position), have immortals on the way and you have defended a slow ling attack/one hasn't happened, your observer should be reaching his base. As soon as hallucination finishes you want to constantly have a phoenix patrolling his bases until you see a tech structure thrown down. You can also opt not to get hallucination until you dont see anything in his main base with obs, then you know he might be hiding something and need to get a faster scouting unit (poser phoenix). Another option is to start halluc but cancel it if you see a tech structure finishing up with obs (meaning he cant cancel and juke you). Note: In all of these responses it is necessary to get 5th and 6th gasses at your third as soon as it finishes.
Here are the responses I've come up with for various zerg tech paths: Spire: + Show Spoiler +
Dedicate all warpins to stalkers, start twilight council and focus on armor upgrades rather than attack upgrades. Remember to wall off your 3rd (if applicable) and start cannons in 2nd and 3rd mineral lines. Initial stalkers should be in main. Tech to storm and have 2 templars each base with a few stalkers. Take your 4th and defend it while either going for a timing, if he's made a lot of mutas and they haven't done much damage, or defensively macro until you have a super army.
Quick Infestation pit, all gasses taken, waves of drones being produced, and fourth (or fourth and fifth if z is inexperienced playing vs quick 3rd style): + Show Spoiler +
Start up a twilight council immediately as you see infestation pit, start charge and templar archives. Continue building immortals, stop at 5 or 6, start warp prism(s), and go up to 12 or 14 gates, going zeal/archon warpins. Attack once all your additional gates finish up. The reason you go for this timing is that an early infestation pit lends itself to ling heavy play as all of the zerg's gas is going towards infestor/roach or infestor/hive tech. If they go early hive, you can't take a 4th base and passively macro because z will have bl/infestor army before you can get vr's. mothership, and archons out in time. On some occasions I have been able to secure a passive 4th while executing warp prism harass, but it only works some of the times and therefore doesn't seem like a viable followup.
Quick infestation pit, all gasses taken, drones not being produced en masse, macro hatch, no fourth on the way: + Show Spoiler +
Ling/infestor attacks on your 3rd and natural. You want to follow the same response as you would versus the quick infestation pit with 4th/5th otw, except you want to cut immortal production (few roaches will be mixed in), and prioritize getting a high gateway count over starting +2/using your robo. Bank as much gas as possible b/c you need archons to defend infested terran spam. After defending his attack(s), go kill him or take your 4th and 5th (you should be able to defend both because his army will be small and tech inefficient).
Rather than going twilight then robo bay, go robo bay then twilight, sim city up your 3rd with cannons and gates, continue upgrading attack and grab blink+collosus range along with collo's. Blink/collo doom push with warp prism after you hold off hydra/ling or hydra/roach bust and have at least 3 collo along with forcefield energy.
No tech choice seen with obs or first phoenixes, only roach warren, no 4th taken, macro hatch, and not all gasses are taken: + Show Spoiler +
Roach 200/200 timing is coming. Continue making immortals until you have six total, three at natural ramp/natural and three at third. You want to rely on immortal/sentry with a splash of stalkers, as well as your walloffs with cannons, to defend this. Start a twilight council and robo when money permits and keep defending with forcefields and ranged units while preparing for your own 200/200 timing with +2 attack/+1 armor and 2/3 ranged collo. Defend, tech up to death timing, attack, win because he can't afford broodlord/infestor when a max roach army deals little to no damage.
The current metagame in pvz revolves around landing a vortex or two to negate part of the zerg army while engaging the rest, hopefully getting an archon toilet off. However, you cannot negate a large portion of zerg’s army if he splits his broodlords up, so much so that you can get only 3 or 4 in a single vortex. Sniping off fringes of his army in that situation doesn’t really work because of infestors/spines under the bls. The solution to this is a voidray focused composition, complete with ht’s, archons, carriers, and a mothership.
While either taking your 4th passively after holding a timing, or taking it while doing a pre BL timing, you want to add a stargate and a fleet beacon once that completes. Start +1 air attack and continuously pump out vr’s from your stargate, and add on a MS when fleet beacon finishes. While your 4th is going up, use zealots left over from mid game and/or warp prism harass in order to buy time/slow down zerg even more. After your 4th is up, along with your 7th and 8th gasses, add on 2 stargates--3 if you have gas floating--and keep pumping vr’s out of them while researching storm and finishing up all your ground upgrades as well as your air attack upgrades. Grab 5th base along with 9th and 10th gasses when you feel secure. Continue to do zealot/dt harass all the time throughout these phases! Doing that will only make your composition stronger by taxing zerg’s resources, and to an extent, mechanics going into your final engagement(s).
The exact composition you’re aiming for is 8-10 ht’s, 6-8 archons, 4-5 carriers, 1 mothership, and the rest of your army supply should be in skillrays...er voidrays. With this composition and constant harassment, you never have to attack into the zerg, instead relying on base/tech snipes with your army+recall or with drops to deal offensive damage. Never, ever attack into zerg--the most sure way to win is to never attack and continue doing damage to him and keeping him on few mining bases. Play like Dimaga. Except Protoss. In the event that the zerg doesn’t concede and tap out losing half his bases to zealot/dt harass and he comes, attacking into you, the priorities you should observe during/before the battle are as follows (in descending order; from most important to least important): 1. Feedback infestors; fungal is the only thing that can beat this composition, so you don’t want any going off. You might ask, “Well, why can’t I just spread vr’s and not worry about denying fungals?” The answer is that if you spread the high number of vr’s you have to the extent that only 3-4 can be hit with a single fungal, you allow corruptors to float around the fringes of your army, quickly destroying portions of your army and retreating. 2. Land storms on corruptors; with your voidrays stacked, corruptors tend to stack up in a group too, when attacking, allowing you to destroy his corruptors in a few storms. If he does spread his corruptors, you still have enough storms in ~10 ht’s to kill them all, and you need not worry about fungals going off on your vrs. If he does fly over your army and wants to force you to storm yourself, instead use archons to focus fire the corruptors, doing even more damage to them than storm would. 3. Land good vortexes, nullifying whatever part of his army you can, getting a huge archon vortex if you’re lucky. 4. Make sure your army is not on a move command...that would be bad.
1st Replay Notes: We both played poorly, I allowing ling runby’s constantly, losing bases, while he didnt upgrade his air units properly. More of a replay showing how to deal with mutas with this build rather than a replay exhibiting good late game play.
Notes: This is vs. Daisuki in the NA playhem daily; he said he was trying out something new so not sure about the quality of this hydra/ling/roach bust/style. I do think that since mr. daisuki is doing it, though, it will be up to par with a high masters player doing a refined version of the build.
Vs. Early Infestation Pit; Charge/Archon timing->late game: http://sc2shr.com/uq Vs. Early Infestation Pit; Passive macro while using prism to slow down zerg’s attack: Vs. Roach max timing: http://sc2shr.com/vF + Show Spoiler +
Notes: The most important aspect to holding off this timing attack is having good mechanics. Use location hotkeys, split your army up, don’t get supply blocked, remember your tech, and you will defend it without a problem. In this particular game, I didn’t have enough sentries at the natural ramp and ended up having to walk back and forth b/t bases relying on obs scouting. In an ideal situation, you want to be forcefielding the ramp and picking off units every time with a few units up top. As long as your 3rd stays up, you are going to win. However, it is hardest to hold on daybreak due to width of ramp, but it is possible to do in a much cleaner way than I did. It’s hard to get replays of this play style because no one does it anymore, but I’ll try to convince my practice partners to do it and will have more replays for you guys soon .
I salute you as a zerg for trying to go into late game in PvZ. I think the 2base timings from P has hold this match-up back in its development for too long. Can you also hold off the aggressive responses (200 roach, roach/inf, ling/inf) from zerg if they complement drops + burrow in?
On August 10 2012 00:32 CheesusCrust wrote: I salute you as a zerg for trying to go into late game in PvZ. I think the 2base timings from P has hold this match-up back in its development for too long.
On August 10 2012 00:32 CheesusCrust wrote: I salute you as a zerg for trying to go into late game in PvZ. I think the 2base timings from P has hold this match-up back in its development for too long. Can you also hold off the aggressive responses (200 roach, roach/inf, ling/inf) from zerg if they complement drops + burrow in?
Personally, I've never played against roach/inf or ling/inf drops and those come so late that you should have a collo out in time. However, roach/ling max with drops (comes 1min-2min ish later than stephano style roach max) is the hardest timing to hold as protoss across all the matches, in my opinion. With this build, you want to utilize hallucination and observer to scout lair researching something, along with a macro hatch and lack of tech besides roach warren. Cut probes and go up on your gateway count, adding cannons everywhere and switching from sentry/immo production to zeal/stalker/immo production. Don't mine from 5th and 6th gasses. Seal off your 3rd. Split units according to how many ovvies you scout going in which direction with your hallucinated phoenixes (sp?). A cool little trick to dealing with drops is if they decide to unload in a zone (pressuing d and clicking on a map/zone rather than clicking on ovvies so they unload whilst moving) is forcefielding under the overlords, forcing everything to squeeze into a few hexes of space. Not sure if this works after the patch though, considering they fixed it with medivacs...
But when you take a third base, don't you try to kill the Zerg in the pre broodlord timing with near max Colossus Blink stalker around 15-16 mins before taking a 4th and going lategame?
On August 10 2012 00:53 Serdiuk wrote: I like the buildup, it seems really safe.
But when you take a third base, don't you try to kill the Zerg in the pre broodlord timing with near max Colossus Blink stalker around 15-16 mins before taking a 4th and going lategame?
I'll only go for the collosus/blink stalker timing if the zerg goes roach max or hydra opening; then the collo/blink stalker timing is the most effective pre broodlord and it's best to punish the z for going a weak opening that delays his bl's if you can. You can still do this vs a ling/inf opening or a hive rush as it is very effective, but it's not the ideal optimal timing/style in that situation. Effective but not optimal. However, you should take a 4th right as you push out as the push shouldn't kill a 'competent' zerg. Your aim in this push, rather than killing the zerg, should be to kill 4th/5th (if applicable) and reduce his infestor count, even killing his 3rd if you can. Then you want to retreat to your 4th, which should have 7th/8th gasses done, and fill up the supply you lost in the timing with vr/mothership/ht. Then do attacks around the map, recalling if you get chain fungalled/will lose your army, slowly replacing supply for super army.
On August 10 2012 01:18 nagthirteen wrote: Good guide as it is thorough and covers almost anything. However, what do you do against roach, hydra, corruptor?
You can go blink/stalker collo and a-move. Mr. Morten...why? :S
EDIT: On a serious note, defend with sentry/immortal/stalker while getting quick collosi out, 3base timing, don't take 4th so you can commit more heavily. If z puts that much gas into hydras/hydra tech then they cant have bl's finishing at nat/3rd while you take out 4th/5th so you can just kill him.
what do you think makes your build better than mine? i mean you re going robo before 4 gates, that means you re open against mass ling attacks, they basically just kill your 3. i think your build is too greedy to be considered safe
what do you think makes your build better than mine? i mean you re going robo before 4 gates, that means you re open against mass ling attacks, they basically just kill your 3. i think your build is too greedy to be considered safe
I never made the assertion it was better than yours. Or even similar to yours. Nevertheless, I'd say that it doesn't probe cut as much, I've read your guide and I think it's a reliable, safe style You're not open to mass ling attacks with good building positioning/ffs on the maps I've put building placements for in the guide. However, on a map like condemned ridge or shakuras/antiga I would choose to go 4g robo then expo rather than 1g robo expo because there is too much space b/t bases or 3rd is too wide open to just defend 3rd off of a few sentries and building positioning.
what do you think makes your build better than mine? i mean you re going robo before 4 gates, that means you re open against mass ling attacks, they basically just kill your 3. i think your build is too greedy to be considered safe
I'd say that it doesn't probe cut as much, I've read your guide and I think it's a reliable, safe style You're not open to mass ling attacks with good building positioning/ffs on the maps I've put building placements for in the guide. However, on a map like condemned ridge or shakuras/antiga I would choose to go 4g robo then expo rather than 1g robo expo because there is too much space b/t bases or 3rd is too wide open to just defend 3rd off of a few sentries and building positioning.
yeah i think your build is just a some kinda greedier version of mine and without offending you, but i don t think you can hold your expo vs the opponents i play against
Great build, and I'm stoked to see some younger talent that isn't Korean changing some of dat metagame. I personally love the air/ht composition so I'll have to give this build a try next time I ladder!
The weakness to this build is when zerg decides to go for an earlier speed timing.
I use a similar build to this on occassion. I played against Destiny and as I poked with my stalkers he made about 20+ lings, I thought to myself i can just retreat to my cannon....
Nope! speed finished at like 7:20 and killed all my stalkers and then continued to just do enough damage that I was forced out of the game
what do you think makes your build better than mine? i mean you re going robo before 4 gates, that means you re open against mass ling attacks, they basically just kill your 3. i think your build is too greedy to be considered safe
I'd say that it doesn't probe cut as much, I've read your guide and I think it's a reliable, safe style You're not open to mass ling attacks with good building positioning/ffs on the maps I've put building placements for in the guide. However, on a map like condemned ridge or shakuras/antiga I would choose to go 4g robo then expo rather than 1g robo expo because there is too much space b/t bases or 3rd is too wide open to just defend 3rd off of a few sentries and building positioning.
yeah i think your build is just a some kinda greedier version of mine and without offending you, but i don t think you can hold your expo vs the opponents i play against
Your build probe cuts for a minute and ten seconds, approximately, which is unneccessary versus a gasless 3 hatch player (assuming no gas after 3 hatch->speed finishing around at 6:45). I also don't think that in your guide you explain in detail responses in the mid game; efficient responses which lead up to a very strong late game. That is not to say your build/guide is poorly written or bad--I'm not saying that at all. Just would like to make it clear that at every level of play there are always going to be ways for people to exploit a scouted build order. For example, I have lost to my clan mate mahv a lot with this build when he knows it's coming for sure. It goes without saying that there are zerg players that are capable of taking advantage of this or any other build, but the fact remains that it is a solid, defendable build against an opponent of equal skill. There's no such thing as the perfect build order or everyone would do it, and then it would get nerfed. Take the example, reactor hellions. Therefore, this is a build like any other, it has strengths and weaknesses and benefits from scouting and reactive play. I'm around the middle tier of high masters, so I wouldn't say I know everything about this game, and I'd love to have better players than myself try it out and validate/destroy it.
EDIT so no double post:
On August 10 2012 02:01 AGIANTSMURF wrote: The weakness to this build is when zerg decides to go for an earlier speed timing.
I use a similar build to this on occassion. I played against Destiny and as I poked with my stalkers he made about 20+ lings, I thought to myself i can just retreat to my cannon....
Nope! speed finished at like 7:20 and killed all my stalkers and then continued to just do enough damage that I was forced out of the game
Hey guy, remember me from ladder (our record is 0-5, in your favor ....or is it 0-6 now) Disregard what I had wrote previously. You need to scout gas at ~4:20 ish to deviate from early 3rd build. Zerg can't do a reactive speed build that can threaten you, only grab gas early for some schenanigans, which you need to scout and react to. My mistake.
what do you think makes your build better than mine? i mean you re going robo before 4 gates, that means you re open against mass ling attacks, they basically just kill your 3. i think your build is too greedy to be considered safe
I'd say that it doesn't probe cut as much, I've read your guide and I think it's a reliable, safe style You're not open to mass ling attacks with good building positioning/ffs on the maps I've put building placements for in the guide. However, on a map like condemned ridge or shakuras/antiga I would choose to go 4g robo then expo rather than 1g robo expo because there is too much space b/t bases or 3rd is too wide open to just defend 3rd off of a few sentries and building positioning.
yeah i think your build is just a some kinda greedier version of mine and without offending you, but i don t think you can hold your expo vs the opponents i play against
Your build probe cuts for a minute and ten seconds, approximately, which is unneccessary versus a gasless 3 hatch player (assuming no gas after 3 hatch->speed finishing around at 6:45). I also don't think that in your guide you explain in detail responses in the mid game; efficient responses which lead up to a very strong late game. That is not to say your build/guide is poorly written or bad--I'm not saying that at all. Just would like to make it clear that at every level of play there are always going to be ways for people to exploit a scouted build order. For example, I have lost to my clan mate mahv a lot with this build when he knows it's coming for sure. It goes without saying that there are zerg players that are capable of taking advantage of this or any other build, but the fact remains that it is a solid, defendable build against an opponent of equal skill. There's no such thing as the perfect build order or everyone would do it, and then it would get nerfed. Take the example, reactor hellions. Therefore, this is a build like any other, it has strengths and weaknesses and benefits from scouting and reactive play. I'm around the middle tier of high masters, so I wouldn't say I know everything about this game, and I'd love to have better players than myself try it out and validate/destroy it.
On August 10 2012 02:01 AGIANTSMURF wrote: The weakness to this build is when zerg decides to go for an earlier speed timing.
I use a similar build to this on occassion. I played against Destiny and as I poked with my stalkers he made about 20+ lings, I thought to myself i can just retreat to my cannon....
Nope! speed finished at like 7:20 and killed all my stalkers and then continued to just do enough damage that I was forced out of the game
Hey guy, remember me from ladder (our record is 0-5, in your favor ....or is it 0-6 now)? On your post, by 7:20 a) your obs should reach his base and see speed+lings popping b) +3 gates should finish and you should dedicate 1st round of those warpins to 4 zeals c)2/3 pylons should be down at 3rd, allowing you to have a semblance of simcity and forcefield properly Again, these are assertions that I'm making--haven't seen the replay so I can't be certain for sure. If you have the replay lying around please PM it to me or post it. Would be much appreciated. Also you mention stalkers; did you poke with more than one stalker? Just curious if i can make some improvements to the build!
Of course, on the topic of early speed, by 6:45 if you see speed with zeal/stalker poke you should transition out of this build into a 4g +1 -> blink stalker or chargezealot/archon allin as you cant hold the 3rd on most maps vs that early speed.
the guide i wrote is just about the opening it s not about the transitions in particiluar, i m just explaining the defence vs mutas, because this is the only agressive counter my readers could think about also it s not easy to write a guide in a foreign language, so i m trying to keep it short i don t like your build, because just like AGIANTSMURF said, it s has a hard counter, this is a big point i don t like
My mistake on the stuff i wrote above--need to scout early gas or see tells (a lot of lings being produced/queens on 2nd/3rd late) in order to deviate and counter 3base sling. Worst scenario is that you cant scout gas due to queen range/good micro and you are forced to cancel 3rd and retreat to nat. In that case stay behind a few warp in rounds then move out and take 3rd
I don't think there's any one build that can or should be able to be strong against every single viable opener. In order for a zerg to have speed finished by 7:20, he would need gas started by 4:20. There's no way that a zerg could reactively scout for a quick third base (before 8 mins) and get speedlings up to "hard counter" the build, it would have to have been his intentions from the beginning of the game to get early gas, which is not beneficial/characteristic of a 3 hatch build. Against early gas, you would be forced to deviate and take a slightly later expansion which is completely okay since the zerg will have lost drones mining gas, and lost drones making the 20+ speedlings needed to force the expo to cancel. There is absolutely nothing wrong with turtling up a couple of warp-in rounds and taking a later expo if the zerg is also cutting economy.
On August 10 2012 01:59 las91 wrote: Great build, and I'm stoked to see some younger talent that isn't Korean changing some of dat metagame. I personally love the air/ht composition so I'll have to give this build a try next time I ladder!
This won't be 'changing the metagame' as players have been doing it for over a year
On August 10 2012 01:59 las91 wrote: Great build, and I'm stoked to see some younger talent that isn't Korean changing some of dat metagame. I personally love the air/ht composition so I'll have to give this build a try next time I ladder!
While Koreans may responsible with changing the metagame due to their refinement of strategies and number of spectators that view their games, they are, in my opinion, not any more likely to come up with innovative strategies than NA or EU. Rather, strategies originate elsewhere and are popularized once seen in a big game.
Just as in this case, if this build was to change up the metagame (which isn't even completely accurate since it's already been used), it wouldn't be due to this user, but rather a Korean executing the build in a televised match.
On August 10 2012 02:28 Kreos.Z wrote: I don't think there's any one build that can or should be able to be strong against every single viable opener. In order for a zerg to have speed finished by 7:20, he would need gas started by 4:20. There's no way that a zerg could reactively scout for a quick third base (before 8 mins) and get speedlings up to "hard counter" the build, it would have to have been his intentions from the beginning of the game to get early gas, which is not beneficial/characteristic of a 3 hatch build. Against early gas, you would be forced to deviate and take a slightly later expansion which is completely okay since the zerg will have lost drones mining gas, and lost drones making the 20+ speedlings needed to force the expo to cancel. There is absolutely nothing wrong with turtling up a couple of warp-in rounds and taking a later expo if the zerg is also cutting economy.
This quote is very important to note.
For those wondering how to react to Lings, it is perfectly acceptable to drop whatever your initial plan was if it means adopting a new plan which is better suited to your current situation and intelligence gathering. Flexibility and adaptability are key traits to have in a game of SC2 and it's important to use them or you will run yourself into a brick wall if the opponent has flexibility or adaptation of their own to combat your strategy.
The point of early harass in PvZ is to prevent the Zerg from non-stop drone production. If the Zerg player voluntarily stops mass droning by creating Lings instead...then do you really need to harass? No. The goal has already been achieved. Instead of blindly following a build order, you should focus on your next goal - obtaining a 3rd - and even if it takes a little more time than usual it's alright because your opponent is behind on his goals.
Awesome guide man! I'm really looking forward to trying it out. One quick question: You mention you cut probes when you are fully saturated at your main and nat before putting down your third. Are you talking 22 probes at each base? or more? Then, when do you start resuming probes to quickly saturate the 3rd?
more importantly, 14 year old high masters? give me your life T_T
edit:
On August 10 2012 05:40 basballguy wrote: Why did you put your "age" in this post like it was relevent? More importantly, why would you lie and say you''re 14?
You can accomplish everything you're asking for in this thread without pretending to be 14.
hes allowed to be proud that hes reached such a high skill at such a young age. not everybody can be as modest and humble as you. also its rude to assume hes lying just because that makes him better than you
On August 10 2012 05:40 basballguy wrote: Why did you put your "age" in this post like it was relevent? More importantly, why would you lie and say you''re 14?
You can accomplish everything you're asking for in this thread without pretending to be 14.
hes allowed to be proud that hes reached such a high skill at such a young age. not everybody can be as modest and humble as you. also its rude to assume hes lying just because that makes him better than you
To be fair, I've never understood why you should be impressed by young age. If anything, it should be more common. At age 14, you don't have a job, you don't party, and you can't drive. What the fuck do you do with your time? Mass gaming. That's what I did at least.
His use of diction and sentence structure leads me to believe that he isn't 14 years of age. The writing seems a bit too mature of a 14 year old North American kid if you ask me...
On August 10 2012 09:21 Catchafire2000 wrote: His use of diction and sentence structure leads me to believe that he isn't 14 years of age. The writing seems a bit too mature of a 14 year old North American kid if you ask me...
Who gives a shit if he is or isn't 14 years old? It's like the 2008 Beijing Olympics when there was that discrepancy between the female Chinese gymnasts and whether or not they were too young to compete. If a 14 year old can kick your ass at a game, more power to him. If he's not 14 years old and can still kick your ass at the game, what's the difference?
On August 10 2012 09:21 Catchafire2000 wrote: His use of diction and sentence structure leads me to believe that he isn't 14 years of age. The writing seems a bit too mature of a 14 year old North American kid if you ask me...
There are always exceptions =P Not everyone learns at the same pace.
As for the guide, I'll definitely try to make it my go to build, I love playing macro games :D
On August 10 2012 09:21 Catchafire2000 wrote: His use of diction and sentence structure leads me to believe that he isn't 14 years of age. The writing seems a bit too mature of a 14 year old North American kid if you ask me...
lol that doesn't mean shit. My essays from when I was 12 kicked the shit out of the VAST majority of people's essays in college (non English majors) that I had in my writing classes. I know because I kept a lot of my essays. I'm talking I could have turned those essays in final draft and received a solid A without question. To base that assumption on age is highly ignorant.
I believe he's 14, but of course he's going to try to purposely sound mature, because he is 14. If he thinks he's special, he's not.
I don't see how this build is much different from a 4 gate robo expand. Sure you get the nexus before the gates, but I believe any 2 base roach/ling allin would kill it, same with baneling busts. I'd assume you'd scout for those, but those early units are vital for staying alive. There are also different maps that are more vulnerable, such as cloud kingdom, because there are many different entrances to the 3rd. On those maps you'd be better off making the great wall of gates, and going for a 3 base all-in because of that vulnerability.
he has posts about him being in masters almost 2 years ago. I don't care that he's in masters...i like to get help wherever I can. What i'm saying is he doesn't need to pretend to be 14 to increase hits on his guide. The contents will do that itself.
And if you can show me a 12 year old masters player, i'll cut off my balls.
On August 10 2012 10:32 Fossa wrote: I believe he's 14, but of course he's going to try to purposely sound mature, because he is 14. If he thinks he's special, he's not.
I don't see how this build is much different from a 4 gate robo expand. Sure you get the nexus before the gates, but I believe any 2 base roach/ling allin would kill it, same with baneling busts. I'd assume you'd scout for those, but those early units are vital for staying alive. There are also different maps that are more vulnerable, such as cloud kingdom, because there are many different entrances to the 3rd. On those maps you'd be better off making the great wall of gates, and going for a 3 base all-in because of that vulnerability.
... really?
On August 10 2012 10:35 basballguy wrote: he has posts about him being in masters almost 2 years ago. I don't care that he's in masters...i like to get help wherever I can. What i'm saying is he doesn't need to pretend to be 14 to increase hits on his guide. The contents will do that itself.
And if you can show me a 12 year old masters player, i'll cut off my balls.
Why the fuck would that be surprising? 12 year olds have nothing else to do but play games.
I used to get the gates before the third, I like this opening better. Been following it up with a 200/200 blink stalker/immortal push with 2-2-2 upgrades, hitting around 15:30/16:00, liking it a lot!
Seems a little less greedy imo. I feel a better build would be to go ~6:30 Third, ie FFE 1gateCore(zealot/stalker)Third then robo, etc.
I feel like robo expands, even one like this, is a little susceptible to mutas. I know you can hold, but I think a both greedier and safer build would be a third taken before robo.
Only problem, obviously, is all-ins, but vigilantly scouting to make sure Zerg didn't get gas before third, and you should know enough to not go fast third.
Zerg builds are only strong after about 11:00+, and Fast Thirds like this by Toss generally get strong defensively around 10+, so it's safe against any fast third zerg doing any sort of attack. Gotta make sure you know if Zerg is going mutas or mass roach or quick hive though, but I think this will soon become standard play in ZvP, as Zerg really can't do anything about it, but they should be able to get broodlords in time as long as Zerg doesn't get any roaches.
This build is way different than a standard robo expand, which doesn't take a third until about 9:00+. Robo expands generally are weak against super fast mutas, but this build can be quite strong against any sort of fast third aggression. imo this will be the future of zvp (well not this, even quicker thirds than this really).
and lay off his age. who cares, there are plenty of ~14 year old players in masters, and there's some pro gamers that hover around that age too. This guy is only 1300 points masters, which is just mid-masters, it's not like he's a pro, but at the same time, he's at a respectable level.
Nice guide, some helpful info on midgame responses here. I've been working on something similar, except gateway first for faster zealot/stalker poke and warpgate timing. If you are planning on investing on early units, you don't need the early cannon to be safe from slow lings, and you can always get it later if you scout a gas for speed. If you get a chance, try out a 13 gate, 15 pylon, 18 Nexus build and let me know how it goes.
On the lategame: when do you normally start transitioning out of Robo to VR/Mothership/HT/Archon? I am still experimenting to find a good timing to change my gas investment vs different zerg compositions. Do you try to leverage VR harass with recall at all?
Thank you. I read the whole guide. I love it. Axslav on his stream was using the exact same end game army composition and tactics as you. Have you ever viewed his stream?
I'm looking forward to watching the replays and trying out this style. Thanks again!
Watched a couple of replays. I feel like the +1 attack isn't really useful that early since you are not building gateways/zealots anyway. Also, it seemed like you were floating some unnecessary gas without any way to spend it early on. If you can delay your 3rd and 4th gas a bit, you could have your 3 warpgates as well as cannons at your third up faster.
I used to do a similar style with stargate but if they just make 20ish lings or have an overlord seeing the nexus going up and then make 20ish lings you WILL be behind. Which is why making gates 2,3 and 4 before nexus is much superior because better players will easily punish your greed.
Another thing is that simcitying with gates that earlier creates chances for the zerg as well. You can still simcity in time with gates 5,6,7,8 to defend any serious threats.
On August 10 2012 12:17 quillian wrote: Nice guide, some helpful info on midgame responses here. I've been working on something similar, except gateway first for faster zealot/stalker poke and warpgate timing. If you are planning on investing on early units, you don't need the early cannon to be safe from slow lings, and you can always get it later if you scout a gas for speed. If you get a chance, try out a 13 gate, 15 pylon, 18 Nexus build and let me know how it goes.
On the lategame: when do you normally start transitioning out of Robo to VR/Mothership/HT/Archon? I am still experimenting to find a good timing to change my gas investment vs different zerg compositions. Do you try to leverage VR harass with recall at all?
You start transitioning into your late game air army of your choice when you secure a 4th base, have a mothership and can start harassing with speed prism. The less gateway units you can accomplish this with the stronger your late game army will be.
On August 10 2012 01:59 las91 wrote: Great build, and I'm stoked to see some younger talent that isn't Korean changing some of dat metagame. I personally love the air/ht composition so I'll have to give this build a try next time I ladder!
This won't be 'changing the metagame' as players have been doing it for over a year
Not effectively, and generally not as early as 7:20.
On August 10 2012 10:35 basballguy wrote: he has posts about him being in masters almost 2 years ago. I don't care that he's in masters...i like to get help wherever I can. What i'm saying is he doesn't need to pretend to be 14 to increase hits on his guide. The contents will do that itself.
And if you can show me a 12 year old masters player, i'll cut off my balls.
Hmmm, at first I thought you were just ripping off my build but now I see that there's many differences. Nice guide and looks to be another solid fast 3rd build for Protoss players to use
The only thing that I think you could do better with your build is the sim city - for example, on Daybreak, I think it's better to wall off initially at your 3rd base (as you can easily defend the narrow ramp with your sentries until the rocks are down, which will be much later in the game). On Cloud Kingdom, I think you should emphasize sim City at your 3rd base as well - you can wall off the choke by your natural rocks with 2 pylons, a gateway, and a cannon behind that and be completely safe there until the rocks are down (and all it takes to complete the wall then is another gateway and pylon I believe). Lastly, on Ohana I think you should leave the gap in the wall on the other side to what you have pictured - it's always better to keep your gaps closer together imo, as it means your army can defend the two holes even easier.
Nice guide. I do something very similar as well. But I take the third after robo at around 40 supply/6:30-6:45 after planting a robo at 32-34 supply. I then proceed to sim city the third with 3 gates and 2 cannons/or whatever is necessary to get the job done, while poking with the zealot (i skip the stalker in favour of a sentry). Again, it's easy to say the zerg can reactively make x amount of lings to run them to your base as a hard counter. But like others have pointed out, if it's speedlings, eco orientated 3 hatch opening was never in their plans OR if it's slowlings, it's just going to end up terrible for the zerg assuming decent control.
@Belial. Hmm. 1300 is mid masters? How's the differentiation in Masters in terms of points?
I like the build, I've been looking for some quick third builds lately.
I have one complaint: No map discussion! I feel like this build might be hard to pull off on Antiga or Condemned Ridge, and probably impossible on Taldarim right? Maybe you could add a little bit on the maps, instead of my backup plan of just seeing what maps I die on with it.
On August 13 2012 00:45 TheFrankOne wrote: I like the build, I've been looking for some quick third builds lately.
I have one complaint: No map discussion! I feel like this build might be hard to pull off on Antiga or Condemned Ridge, and probably impossible on Taldarim right? Maybe you could add a little bit on the maps, instead of my backup plan of just seeing what maps I die on with it.
I would say so. Similar to my style of opening and I veto condemned and TDA and dedicate 2 base all ins for Antiga so.. you're on the money
On CK, I also wall at the natural rocks like RemarK said. The same goes for Daybreak. On Ohana I fully wall the natural.
Hi all; thanks for taking the time to read my post. I'll try my best to incorporate some of your criticisms and get some more rep's with you guys. Right now I'm staying with cousins so no sc2 for me now but i'll get on it early in the week. As to those that doubt my age (I don't even think I should be granting a response.... -_-), I could care less whether you think I'm actually 14 or not, and I'd much rather you make my age a nonfactor and have it simply be something I'm telling you about myself (because i'm amicable and awesome); something that doesn't impact the validity of my guide. If you think my writing is so good that I can't be this young, I'm truly flattered I can PM you guys some of the articles I've written for a magazine if you still doubt me. I don't know if I should have said all of that but.... w/e
Now time to respond to individual posts--keep in mind I'm just waking up so my responses might not be the most coherent
On August 10 2012 06:03 MasterMonkey wrote: Awesome guide man! I'm really looking forward to trying it out. One quick question: You mention you cut probes when you are fully saturated at your main and nat before putting down your third. Are you talking 22 probes at each base? or more? Then, when do you start resuming probes to quickly saturate the 3rd?
Hmmmm not sure how many probes this is as I can't recall how many per row off the top of my head, but 3 in each gas, and 2 rows of probes + 1 probe in the 3rd row on minerals. I think that's 17 on minerals 6 on gas...not sure if those are exact numbers though.
On August 10 2012 10:32 Fossa wrote: I believe he's 14, but of course he's going to try to purposely sound mature, because he is 14. If he thinks he's special, he's not.
I don't see how this build is much different from a 4 gate robo expand. Sure you get the nexus before the gates, but I believe any 2 base roach/ling allin would kill it, same with baneling busts. I'd assume you'd scout for those, but those early units are vital for staying alive. There are also different maps that are more vulnerable, such as cloud kingdom, because there are many different entrances to the 3rd. On those maps you'd be better off making the great wall of gates, and going for a 3 base all-in because of that vulnerability.
You should be scouting 2base zerg builds and baneling busts; this should be done with a probe, not your z/s poke. I'll repeat it again, probably not for the last time, with good execution and building placement (even shifting the 3gate wall to your 3rd, if you don't do that, having pylons by nexus to help simcity vs slow ling attacks) you can hold it on the maps I've mentioned. I'd be glad to get you some replays of specific instances where you're having trouble holding--just tell me exactly what's happening so I can replicate it.
On August 10 2012 10:35 basballguy wrote: he has posts about him being in masters almost 2 years ago. I don't care that he's in masters...i like to get help wherever I can. What i'm saying is he doesn't need to pretend to be 14 to increase hits on his guide. The contents will do that itself.
And if you can show me a 12 year old masters player, i'll cut off my balls.
It doesn't increase hits because I haven't included it in the title. Just like I didn't include how old I was in my stream OP. You don't really understand how hits work on a website, do you? I do appreciate you putting the quality of the guide above my age. Again, I thought it would be nice to give a little intro to myself. Also, nazjmazs. Please cut them off. (don't, really :D)
On August 10 2012 11:52 Belial88 wrote: Seems a little less greedy imo. I feel a better build would be to go ~6:30 Third, ie FFE 1gateCore(zealot/stalker)Third then robo, etc.
I feel like robo expands, even one like this, is a little susceptible to mutas. I know you can hold, but I think a both greedier and safer build would be a third taken before robo.
Only problem, obviously, is all-ins, but vigilantly scouting to make sure Zerg didn't get gas before third, and you should know enough to not go fast third.
Zerg builds are only strong after about 11:00+, and Fast Thirds like this by Toss generally get strong defensively around 10+, so it's safe against any fast third zerg doing any sort of attack. Gotta make sure you know if Zerg is going mutas or mass roach or quick hive though, but I think this will soon become standard play in ZvP, as Zerg really can't do anything about it, but they should be able to get broodlords in time as long as Zerg doesn't get any roaches.
This build is way different than a standard robo expand, which doesn't take a third until about 9:00+. Robo expands generally are weak against super fast mutas, but this build can be quite strong against any sort of fast third aggression. imo this will be the future of zvp (well not this, even quicker thirds than this really).
and lay off his age. who cares, there are plenty of ~14 year old players in masters, and there's some pro gamers that hover around that age too. This guy is only 1300 points masters, which is just mid-masters, it's not like he's a pro, but at the same time, he's at a respectable level.
Thanks Belial for summarizing my guide in layman's (sp?) terms. The 6:30 3rd, is that even possible O_o. About to use search function now and prepare to have my mind blown!
On August 10 2012 12:17 quillian wrote: Nice guide, some helpful info on midgame responses here. I've been working on something similar, except gateway first for faster zealot/stalker poke and warpgate timing. If you are planning on investing on early units, you don't need the early cannon to be safe from slow lings, and you can always get it later if you scout a gas for speed. If you get a chance, try out a 13 gate, 15 pylon, 18 Nexus build and let me know how it goes.
On the lategame: when do you normally start transitioning out of Robo to VR/Mothership/HT/Archon? I am still experimenting to find a good timing to change my gas investment vs different zerg compositions. Do you try to leverage VR harass with recall at all?
I've seen axslav do some gateway first stuff on his stream, but I've never gotten around to learning it and preparing proper reactions with it. I'd think that going gateway expo then 7:30 3rd is superior to ffe->7:30 3rd due to the fact that it makes zerg shit their pants. I just don't know how to do it properly Perhaps you'd like to help me learn it? :D Magic.532 Lategame: You want to throw up your stargate right when your 4th is started, earlier if you can afford it or want earlier M.S. for some reason. Produce voidrays out of 1 stargate, start +1 air attack, and start fleetbeacon->Mothership while dumping minerals into zealot harass. Add on 3 stargates once gasses at 4th complete, then research storm if you don't already have it. When you start storm, take your 5th and wall it off as at this point zerg might have counterattacking units left over from mid game. On the topic of recall: YES YES YES. Going in and sniping bases/infestors then recalling is much better than having MS with you, having it get snipes and/or hoping for a vortex you will never get.
On August 10 2012 15:44 ionlyplayPROtoss wrote: I used to do a similar style with stargate but if they just make 20ish lings or have an overlord seeing the nexus going up and then make 20ish lings you WILL be behind. Which is why making gates 2,3 and 4 before nexus is much superior because better players will easily punish your greed.
Another thing is that simcitying with gates that earlier creates chances for the zerg as well. You can still simcity in time with gates 5,6,7,8 to defend any serious threats.
20 Reactive lings don't do anything to 4-5 sentries, 1 zealot, and one stalker that are hugging a nexus and have a pylon right next to them as well. Add on the 4 warpins you should have after holding lings at bay for 15-30 s with 2/3 forcefields (depending on positioning) and there is no threat presented by REACTIVE lings. Hope I addressed your concerns properly
On August 12 2012 09:24 RemarK wrote: Hmmm, at first I thought you were just ripping off my build but now I see that there's many differences. Nice guide and looks to be another solid fast 3rd build for Protoss players to use
The only thing that I think you could do better with your build is the sim city - for example, on Daybreak, I think it's better to wall off initially at your 3rd base (as you can easily defend the narrow ramp with your sentries until the rocks are down, which will be much later in the game). On Cloud Kingdom, I think you should emphasize sim City at your 3rd base as well - you can wall off the choke by your natural rocks with 2 pylons, a gateway, and a cannon behind that and be completely safe there until the rocks are down (and all it takes to complete the wall then is another gateway and pylon I believe). Lastly, on Ohana I think you should leave the gap in the wall on the other side to what you have pictured - it's always better to keep your gaps closer together imo, as it means your army can defend the two holes even easier.
See, remark, I would have this information on which walling style is better if you would practice with me and stop stealing mahv (((((( On a serious note, you're probably right; will have updated pictures of building placement by tuesday/wednesday night.
On August 13 2012 00:45 TheFrankOne wrote: I like the build, I've been looking for some quick third builds lately.
I have one complaint: No map discussion! I feel like this build might be hard to pull off on Antiga or Condemned Ridge, and probably impossible on Taldarim right? Maybe you could add a little bit on the maps, instead of my backup plan of just seeing what maps I die on with it.
By posting pics of only certain maps, I meant to convey the point that it was only possible on those maps. I really should add in map discussion with pictures though; you're right. Will do by tuesday/wednesday night. On the topic of the maps you mentioned, Antiga is annoying because you have to split units perfectly between bases as they're not connected. It's doable, but it gets hard when zerg keeps changing how much of their force they send where, right during their aggressive phase. Condemned and TDA, too much space. If ramp to your nat or 3rd entrance was a few hexes smaller, it would be doable, but currently it's not a viable map on TDA. But I do have that map veto'd and I don't practice it, so my bias might be sinking through a little bit. Maybe with more extensive testing it is viable on TDA, but I'm, personally, not sure.
On August 13 2012 00:07 etherealfall wrote: Nice guide. I do something very similar as well. But I take the third after robo at around 40 supply/6:30-6:45 after planting a robo at 32-34 supply. I then proceed to sim city the third with 3 gates and 2 cannons/or whatever is necessary to get the job done, while poking with the zealot (i skip the stalker in favour of a sentry). Again, it's easy to say the zerg can reactively make x amount of lings to run them to your base as a hard counter. But like others have pointed out, if it's speedlings, eco orientated 3 hatch opening was never in their plans OR if it's slowlings, it's just going to end up terrible for the zerg assuming decent control.
@Belial. Hmm. 1300 is mid masters? How's the differentiation in Masters in terms of points?
Yeah; some like to do zeal/sentry rather than zealot stalker in that it saves you minerals, allows you to spend more gas, and it gives you two (maybe even three...actually 3 most likely) extra forcefields. I think it's a matter of preference and I prefer the zealot/stalker opening because most of my ffe builds open that way, so I like to keep it as opaque as possible. However, if I had more builds that did zeal->sentry, then I would open that way as opposed to zeal/stalker. Another factor to take into account is if you want a slightly sub-optimal, unreadable build, or an optimal, readable build. Everything depends on preference, if you're playing in a tournament or ladder, best of 3 or a best of 1, and your play style.
Thanks Belial for summarizing my guide in layman's (sp?) terms. The 6:30 3rd, is that even possible O_o. About to use search function now and prepare to have my mind blown!
Check out a thread I posted, something like "[h] how to deal with stupidly fast third zvp" where I post asking help against someone who did this. Unlike a standard robo expand 9:00+, which is susceptible to muta play, super fast thirds like this are very strong against mutas. the guy i played also streamed, so you can see the toss play and his point of view. he actually explains it quite well. the game went whatever, and i was fine, but i lost to a stupid vortex and the game went on for another 30 minutes (the guy was pretty happy to win, i dont think he realized i had zero chance to win after the vortex at like 18:00 and just wasnt closeable until much later), but he talks about how safe his build is and that zerg can't do anything to punish it, something i struggled with throughout the game.
nowadays my response to super fast thirds from toss is just not make any roach tech and go super fast broodlords, 5 bases, and 100+ drones and fast hive, but if i see a robo expand, like in this build, i will go mutas and just play a standard muta game.
On a side note, i really dont think void rays are useful in lategame zvp. I think you are better off getting carriers. the way I see it, the way for toss to play lategame zvp, is get a fourth, stargate, fleet beacon, as you say, but get mothership and defend the bl/infestor ball by using defensive posturing, cannons, and the threat of a good vortex since you are in a spread out, good, defensive position that zerg really can't engage against safely, and then get speed prism and a shitton of gates, and just do a shitton of mass zealot, maybe even DT, harass on the bases before zerg has a ton of spines at every single base, and at the same time secure your 5th behind the harass, and get your carrier ball going, and really rely on the mobility of speed prism, blink stalkers, and recall to prevent zerg from just denying your fifth or going to kill you with mass IT spam + bl aggression, as you get that fifth base up so you can afford that carrier fleet to win the game.
monk has talked about it a bit, you could probably search stuff by him on that.
slowlings aren't going to do shit against this fast third against the cannons toss could put up, and warp ins. obviously fast third play is stronger on certain maps. i dont even know if toss can go fast third against mass roach/ling aggression on a map like shakuras, but on most maps i think fast third is the way to go and you are totally safe. cloud kingdom? daybreak? ohana even? theres just nothing zerg can do aggression-wise that toss who takes a quick third, can't handle, and the quicker the third the easier it will be to hold (although cheese will be harder to hold, hence why you dont do this if zerg is cheesing and doesnt take a third right away and have drones at his nat).
i think high master is something like 1500 points right now. if someone who was 1300 points said they were high master i dont think anyone would grief him about it.
Thanks Belial for summarizing my guide in layman's (sp?) terms. The 6:30 3rd, is that even possible O_o. About to use search function now and prepare to have my mind blown!
Check out a thread I posted, something like "[h] how to deal with stupidly fast third zvp" where I post asking help against someone who did this. Unlike a standard robo expand 9:00+, which is susceptible to muta play, super fast thirds like this are very strong against mutas. the guy i played also streamed, so you can see the toss play and his point of view. he actually explains it quite well. the game went whatever, and i was fine, but i lost to a stupid vortex and the game went on for another 30 minutes (the guy was pretty happy to win, i dont think he realized i had zero chance to win after the vortex at like 18:00 and just wasnt closeable until much later), but he talks about how safe his build is and that zerg can't do anything to punish it, something i struggled with throughout the game.
nowadays my response to super fast thirds from toss is just not make any roach tech and go super fast broodlords, 5 bases, and 100+ drones and fast hive, but if i see a robo expand, like in this build, i will go mutas and just play a standard muta game.
On a side note, i really dont think void rays are useful in lategame zvp. I think you are better off getting carriers. the way I see it, the way for toss to play lategame zvp, is get a fourth, stargate, fleet beacon, as you say, but get mothership and defend the bl/infestor ball by using defensive posturing, cannons, and the threat of a good vortex since you are in a spread out, good, defensive position that zerg really can't engage against safely, and then get speed prism and a shitton of gates, and just do a shitton of mass zealot, maybe even DT, harass on the bases before zerg has a ton of spines at every single base, and at the same time secure your 5th behind the harass, and get your carrier ball going, and really rely on the mobility of speed prism, blink stalkers, and recall to prevent zerg from just denying your fifth or going to kill you with mass IT spam + bl aggression, as you get that fifth base up so you can afford that carrier fleet to win the game.
monk has talked about it a bit, you could probably search stuff by him on that.
slowlings aren't going to do shit against this fast third against the cannons toss could put up, and warp ins. obviously fast third play is stronger on certain maps. i dont even know if toss can go fast third against mass roach/ling aggression on a map like shakuras, but on most maps i think fast third is the way to go and you are totally safe. cloud kingdom? daybreak? ohana even? theres just nothing zerg can do aggression-wise that toss who takes a quick third, can't handle, and the quicker the third the easier it will be to hold (although cheese will be harder to hold, hence why you dont do this if zerg is cheesing and doesnt take a third right away and have drones at his nat).
i think high master is something like 1500 points right now. if someone who was 1300 points said they were high master i dont think anyone would grief him about it.
Just on the Voidrays,
Axslav goes into detail about using Skillrays and about transitioning into sky toss.
Late game question - not really central to this build, I know, but you recommend going heavy zealot/archon vs ling/infestor and fast hive. Does this change if he also has banelings in the mix? Or would you wait for storm?
Thanks Belial for summarizing my guide in layman's (sp?) terms. The 6:30 3rd, is that even possible O_o. About to use search function now and prepare to have my mind blown!
Check out a thread I posted, something like "[h] how to deal with stupidly fast third zvp" where I post asking help against someone who did this. Unlike a standard robo expand 9:00+, which is susceptible to muta play, super fast thirds like this are very strong against mutas. the guy i played also streamed, so you can see the toss play and his point of view. he actually explains it quite well. the game went whatever, and i was fine, but i lost to a stupid vortex and the game went on for another 30 minutes (the guy was pretty happy to win, i dont think he realized i had zero chance to win after the vortex at like 18:00 and just wasnt closeable until much later), but he talks about how safe his build is and that zerg can't do anything to punish it, something i struggled with throughout the game.
nowadays my response to super fast thirds from toss is just not make any roach tech and go super fast broodlords, 5 bases, and 100+ drones and fast hive, but if i see a robo expand, like in this build, i will go mutas and just play a standard muta game.
On a side note, i really dont think void rays are useful in lategame zvp. I think you are better off getting carriers. the way I see it, the way for toss to play lategame zvp, is get a fourth, stargate, fleet beacon, as you say, but get mothership and defend the bl/infestor ball by using defensive posturing, cannons, and the threat of a good vortex since you are in a spread out, good, defensive position that zerg really can't engage against safely, and then get speed prism and a shitton of gates, and just do a shitton of mass zealot, maybe even DT, harass on the bases before zerg has a ton of spines at every single base, and at the same time secure your 5th behind the harass, and get your carrier ball going, and really rely on the mobility of speed prism, blink stalkers, and recall to prevent zerg from just denying your fifth or going to kill you with mass IT spam + bl aggression, as you get that fifth base up so you can afford that carrier fleet to win the game.
monk has talked about it a bit, you could probably search stuff by him on that.
slowlings aren't going to do shit against this fast third against the cannons toss could put up, and warp ins. obviously fast third play is stronger on certain maps. i dont even know if toss can go fast third against mass roach/ling aggression on a map like shakuras, but on most maps i think fast third is the way to go and you are totally safe. cloud kingdom? daybreak? ohana even? theres just nothing zerg can do aggression-wise that toss who takes a quick third, can't handle, and the quicker the third the easier it will be to hold (although cheese will be harder to hold, hence why you dont do this if zerg is cheesing and doesnt take a third right away and have drones at his nat).
i think high master is something like 1500 points right now. if someone who was 1300 points said they were high master i dont think anyone would grief him about it.
Agree with most things here, besides the carrier fleet. Carrier fleets actually output less dps than vrs in a huge ball if upgrades favor zerg (which they will if he is smart and decides to do a corrup heavy inf/bl timing while you are sinking money into carriers. I think casters are a bit to blame in saying that if you get to critical mass of carriers, nothing will kill them. The fact of the matter is that if z is 1 armor ahead of your attack upgrades, carriers do significantly less dps than voidrays due to the fact that carrier dps is based of off quick, constant fire from interceptors, increasing the amount of damage mitigated by an armor upgrade on z's side. I think you should watch the pro corner w/ axslav vid someone linked above me. A few carriers (4-5 max) are good for forcing engagement and sniping outlying infestors or broodlords. Just using them for range while relying on storm+vr for crazy dps output.
On August 13 2012 16:13 eugalp wrote: Late game question - not really central to this build, I know, but you recommend going heavy zealot/archon vs ling/infestor and fast hive. Does this change if he also has banelings in the mix? Or would you wait for storm?
If he has banelings you want to still go charge+archon but have an obs over his army/watching your flanks so you can see where to put archons (in front if he has all of his banelings to meet you head on, to the sides if he has baneling flanks, etc). Also you want to be splitting zealots pre and mid engagement. Archon/chargezealots actually destroy ling/inf/bling because archons get shots off on the baneling mass while they roll by to try to get your zealots. If they blow up on archons, they are being cost inefficient and then the zeals come in and kill everything. Not to mention that no reasonable amount of banelings should be beating 8 ish archons that are spread out... :D
^ That was interesting. I don't know. It IS true, as far as I see it, that carriers will rock anything Zerg has once you have enough of them. Maybe Voidray+Storm can kill anything zerg has too, but I do think it's true that once you have enough carriers, nothing zerg has can beat them.
I don't know about the void rays. That zerg in that video, suppy, made a really stupid engagement of like 8 corruptors vs like 10+ void rays, a ton of stalkers, and storm, with no infestors, i dont know why he thought he could win that. I think with broodlord support against the HT, enough infestors should work well against vr+ht.
I don't see zerg being ahead in armor against toss air,with chronoboost and the late spire and the need to get greater spire going. Double spire is ridiculously expensive, i dont think zerg can expect to be far ahead of toss in air upgrades.
On August 14 2012 08:13 TangSC wrote: This has made my PvZ so much stronger, thank you!
Wat. I get Tang seal of approval?!?!?! so happy :D Maybe you can play some games vs me so I can get some more reps? Magic.532
On August 14 2012 09:14 Wombat_NI wrote: I know a guide will likely be good when it doesn't have the creator's name attached to it a la 'Gamer's unbeatable PvZ ladder build'
Didn't disappoint, great guide, some cool discussion afterwards. Good to know that the strategy forum still has some dedicated posters in it
Thanks for the kind words; 'tis my first guide and glad to know that you enjoyed it. Hopefully your PvZ will now be ~100% w/l ratio >:D
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/RwNV6.jpg)
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....or is it 0-6 now)
