On August 10 2012 10:35 basballguy wrote: he has posts about him being in masters almost 2 years ago. I don't care that he's in masters...i like to get help wherever I can. What i'm saying is he doesn't need to pretend to be 14 to increase hits on his guide. The contents will do that itself.
And if you can show me a 12 year old masters player, i'll cut off my balls.
Hmmm, at first I thought you were just ripping off my build but now I see that there's many differences. Nice guide and looks to be another solid fast 3rd build for Protoss players to use
The only thing that I think you could do better with your build is the sim city - for example, on Daybreak, I think it's better to wall off initially at your 3rd base (as you can easily defend the narrow ramp with your sentries until the rocks are down, which will be much later in the game). On Cloud Kingdom, I think you should emphasize sim City at your 3rd base as well - you can wall off the choke by your natural rocks with 2 pylons, a gateway, and a cannon behind that and be completely safe there until the rocks are down (and all it takes to complete the wall then is another gateway and pylon I believe). Lastly, on Ohana I think you should leave the gap in the wall on the other side to what you have pictured - it's always better to keep your gaps closer together imo, as it means your army can defend the two holes even easier.
Nice guide. I do something very similar as well. But I take the third after robo at around 40 supply/6:30-6:45 after planting a robo at 32-34 supply. I then proceed to sim city the third with 3 gates and 2 cannons/or whatever is necessary to get the job done, while poking with the zealot (i skip the stalker in favour of a sentry). Again, it's easy to say the zerg can reactively make x amount of lings to run them to your base as a hard counter. But like others have pointed out, if it's speedlings, eco orientated 3 hatch opening was never in their plans OR if it's slowlings, it's just going to end up terrible for the zerg assuming decent control.
@Belial. Hmm. 1300 is mid masters? How's the differentiation in Masters in terms of points?
I like the build, I've been looking for some quick third builds lately.
I have one complaint: No map discussion! I feel like this build might be hard to pull off on Antiga or Condemned Ridge, and probably impossible on Taldarim right? Maybe you could add a little bit on the maps, instead of my backup plan of just seeing what maps I die on with it.
On August 13 2012 00:45 TheFrankOne wrote: I like the build, I've been looking for some quick third builds lately.
I have one complaint: No map discussion! I feel like this build might be hard to pull off on Antiga or Condemned Ridge, and probably impossible on Taldarim right? Maybe you could add a little bit on the maps, instead of my backup plan of just seeing what maps I die on with it.
I would say so. Similar to my style of opening and I veto condemned and TDA and dedicate 2 base all ins for Antiga so.. you're on the money
On CK, I also wall at the natural rocks like RemarK said. The same goes for Daybreak. On Ohana I fully wall the natural.
Hi all; thanks for taking the time to read my post. I'll try my best to incorporate some of your criticisms and get some more rep's with you guys. Right now I'm staying with cousins so no sc2 for me now but i'll get on it early in the week. As to those that doubt my age (I don't even think I should be granting a response.... -_-), I could care less whether you think I'm actually 14 or not, and I'd much rather you make my age a nonfactor and have it simply be something I'm telling you about myself (because i'm amicable and awesome); something that doesn't impact the validity of my guide. If you think my writing is so good that I can't be this young, I'm truly flattered I can PM you guys some of the articles I've written for a magazine if you still doubt me. I don't know if I should have said all of that but.... w/e
Now time to respond to individual posts--keep in mind I'm just waking up so my responses might not be the most coherent
On August 10 2012 06:03 MasterMonkey wrote: Awesome guide man! I'm really looking forward to trying it out. One quick question: You mention you cut probes when you are fully saturated at your main and nat before putting down your third. Are you talking 22 probes at each base? or more? Then, when do you start resuming probes to quickly saturate the 3rd?
Hmmmm not sure how many probes this is as I can't recall how many per row off the top of my head, but 3 in each gas, and 2 rows of probes + 1 probe in the 3rd row on minerals. I think that's 17 on minerals 6 on gas...not sure if those are exact numbers though.
On August 10 2012 10:32 Fossa wrote: I believe he's 14, but of course he's going to try to purposely sound mature, because he is 14. If he thinks he's special, he's not.
I don't see how this build is much different from a 4 gate robo expand. Sure you get the nexus before the gates, but I believe any 2 base roach/ling allin would kill it, same with baneling busts. I'd assume you'd scout for those, but those early units are vital for staying alive. There are also different maps that are more vulnerable, such as cloud kingdom, because there are many different entrances to the 3rd. On those maps you'd be better off making the great wall of gates, and going for a 3 base all-in because of that vulnerability.
You should be scouting 2base zerg builds and baneling busts; this should be done with a probe, not your z/s poke. I'll repeat it again, probably not for the last time, with good execution and building placement (even shifting the 3gate wall to your 3rd, if you don't do that, having pylons by nexus to help simcity vs slow ling attacks) you can hold it on the maps I've mentioned. I'd be glad to get you some replays of specific instances where you're having trouble holding--just tell me exactly what's happening so I can replicate it.
On August 10 2012 10:35 basballguy wrote: he has posts about him being in masters almost 2 years ago. I don't care that he's in masters...i like to get help wherever I can. What i'm saying is he doesn't need to pretend to be 14 to increase hits on his guide. The contents will do that itself.
And if you can show me a 12 year old masters player, i'll cut off my balls.
It doesn't increase hits because I haven't included it in the title. Just like I didn't include how old I was in my stream OP. You don't really understand how hits work on a website, do you? I do appreciate you putting the quality of the guide above my age. Again, I thought it would be nice to give a little intro to myself. Also, nazjmazs. Please cut them off. (don't, really :D)
On August 10 2012 11:52 Belial88 wrote: Seems a little less greedy imo. I feel a better build would be to go ~6:30 Third, ie FFE 1gateCore(zealot/stalker)Third then robo, etc.
I feel like robo expands, even one like this, is a little susceptible to mutas. I know you can hold, but I think a both greedier and safer build would be a third taken before robo.
Only problem, obviously, is all-ins, but vigilantly scouting to make sure Zerg didn't get gas before third, and you should know enough to not go fast third.
Zerg builds are only strong after about 11:00+, and Fast Thirds like this by Toss generally get strong defensively around 10+, so it's safe against any fast third zerg doing any sort of attack. Gotta make sure you know if Zerg is going mutas or mass roach or quick hive though, but I think this will soon become standard play in ZvP, as Zerg really can't do anything about it, but they should be able to get broodlords in time as long as Zerg doesn't get any roaches.
This build is way different than a standard robo expand, which doesn't take a third until about 9:00+. Robo expands generally are weak against super fast mutas, but this build can be quite strong against any sort of fast third aggression. imo this will be the future of zvp (well not this, even quicker thirds than this really).
and lay off his age. who cares, there are plenty of ~14 year old players in masters, and there's some pro gamers that hover around that age too. This guy is only 1300 points masters, which is just mid-masters, it's not like he's a pro, but at the same time, he's at a respectable level.
Thanks Belial for summarizing my guide in layman's (sp?) terms. The 6:30 3rd, is that even possible O_o. About to use search function now and prepare to have my mind blown!
On August 10 2012 12:17 quillian wrote: Nice guide, some helpful info on midgame responses here. I've been working on something similar, except gateway first for faster zealot/stalker poke and warpgate timing. If you are planning on investing on early units, you don't need the early cannon to be safe from slow lings, and you can always get it later if you scout a gas for speed. If you get a chance, try out a 13 gate, 15 pylon, 18 Nexus build and let me know how it goes.
On the lategame: when do you normally start transitioning out of Robo to VR/Mothership/HT/Archon? I am still experimenting to find a good timing to change my gas investment vs different zerg compositions. Do you try to leverage VR harass with recall at all?
I've seen axslav do some gateway first stuff on his stream, but I've never gotten around to learning it and preparing proper reactions with it. I'd think that going gateway expo then 7:30 3rd is superior to ffe->7:30 3rd due to the fact that it makes zerg shit their pants. I just don't know how to do it properly Perhaps you'd like to help me learn it? :D Magic.532 Lategame: You want to throw up your stargate right when your 4th is started, earlier if you can afford it or want earlier M.S. for some reason. Produce voidrays out of 1 stargate, start +1 air attack, and start fleetbeacon->Mothership while dumping minerals into zealot harass. Add on 3 stargates once gasses at 4th complete, then research storm if you don't already have it. When you start storm, take your 5th and wall it off as at this point zerg might have counterattacking units left over from mid game. On the topic of recall: YES YES YES. Going in and sniping bases/infestors then recalling is much better than having MS with you, having it get snipes and/or hoping for a vortex you will never get.
On August 10 2012 15:44 ionlyplayPROtoss wrote: I used to do a similar style with stargate but if they just make 20ish lings or have an overlord seeing the nexus going up and then make 20ish lings you WILL be behind. Which is why making gates 2,3 and 4 before nexus is much superior because better players will easily punish your greed.
Another thing is that simcitying with gates that earlier creates chances for the zerg as well. You can still simcity in time with gates 5,6,7,8 to defend any serious threats.
20 Reactive lings don't do anything to 4-5 sentries, 1 zealot, and one stalker that are hugging a nexus and have a pylon right next to them as well. Add on the 4 warpins you should have after holding lings at bay for 15-30 s with 2/3 forcefields (depending on positioning) and there is no threat presented by REACTIVE lings. Hope I addressed your concerns properly
On August 12 2012 09:24 RemarK wrote: Hmmm, at first I thought you were just ripping off my build but now I see that there's many differences. Nice guide and looks to be another solid fast 3rd build for Protoss players to use
The only thing that I think you could do better with your build is the sim city - for example, on Daybreak, I think it's better to wall off initially at your 3rd base (as you can easily defend the narrow ramp with your sentries until the rocks are down, which will be much later in the game). On Cloud Kingdom, I think you should emphasize sim City at your 3rd base as well - you can wall off the choke by your natural rocks with 2 pylons, a gateway, and a cannon behind that and be completely safe there until the rocks are down (and all it takes to complete the wall then is another gateway and pylon I believe). Lastly, on Ohana I think you should leave the gap in the wall on the other side to what you have pictured - it's always better to keep your gaps closer together imo, as it means your army can defend the two holes even easier.
See, remark, I would have this information on which walling style is better if you would practice with me and stop stealing mahv (((((( On a serious note, you're probably right; will have updated pictures of building placement by tuesday/wednesday night.
On August 13 2012 00:45 TheFrankOne wrote: I like the build, I've been looking for some quick third builds lately.
I have one complaint: No map discussion! I feel like this build might be hard to pull off on Antiga or Condemned Ridge, and probably impossible on Taldarim right? Maybe you could add a little bit on the maps, instead of my backup plan of just seeing what maps I die on with it.
By posting pics of only certain maps, I meant to convey the point that it was only possible on those maps. I really should add in map discussion with pictures though; you're right. Will do by tuesday/wednesday night. On the topic of the maps you mentioned, Antiga is annoying because you have to split units perfectly between bases as they're not connected. It's doable, but it gets hard when zerg keeps changing how much of their force they send where, right during their aggressive phase. Condemned and TDA, too much space. If ramp to your nat or 3rd entrance was a few hexes smaller, it would be doable, but currently it's not a viable map on TDA. But I do have that map veto'd and I don't practice it, so my bias might be sinking through a little bit. Maybe with more extensive testing it is viable on TDA, but I'm, personally, not sure.
On August 13 2012 00:07 etherealfall wrote: Nice guide. I do something very similar as well. But I take the third after robo at around 40 supply/6:30-6:45 after planting a robo at 32-34 supply. I then proceed to sim city the third with 3 gates and 2 cannons/or whatever is necessary to get the job done, while poking with the zealot (i skip the stalker in favour of a sentry). Again, it's easy to say the zerg can reactively make x amount of lings to run them to your base as a hard counter. But like others have pointed out, if it's speedlings, eco orientated 3 hatch opening was never in their plans OR if it's slowlings, it's just going to end up terrible for the zerg assuming decent control.
@Belial. Hmm. 1300 is mid masters? How's the differentiation in Masters in terms of points?
Yeah; some like to do zeal/sentry rather than zealot stalker in that it saves you minerals, allows you to spend more gas, and it gives you two (maybe even three...actually 3 most likely) extra forcefields. I think it's a matter of preference and I prefer the zealot/stalker opening because most of my ffe builds open that way, so I like to keep it as opaque as possible. However, if I had more builds that did zeal->sentry, then I would open that way as opposed to zeal/stalker. Another factor to take into account is if you want a slightly sub-optimal, unreadable build, or an optimal, readable build. Everything depends on preference, if you're playing in a tournament or ladder, best of 3 or a best of 1, and your play style.
Thanks Belial for summarizing my guide in layman's (sp?) terms. The 6:30 3rd, is that even possible O_o. About to use search function now and prepare to have my mind blown!
Check out a thread I posted, something like "[h] how to deal with stupidly fast third zvp" where I post asking help against someone who did this. Unlike a standard robo expand 9:00+, which is susceptible to muta play, super fast thirds like this are very strong against mutas. the guy i played also streamed, so you can see the toss play and his point of view. he actually explains it quite well. the game went whatever, and i was fine, but i lost to a stupid vortex and the game went on for another 30 minutes (the guy was pretty happy to win, i dont think he realized i had zero chance to win after the vortex at like 18:00 and just wasnt closeable until much later), but he talks about how safe his build is and that zerg can't do anything to punish it, something i struggled with throughout the game.
nowadays my response to super fast thirds from toss is just not make any roach tech and go super fast broodlords, 5 bases, and 100+ drones and fast hive, but if i see a robo expand, like in this build, i will go mutas and just play a standard muta game.
On a side note, i really dont think void rays are useful in lategame zvp. I think you are better off getting carriers. the way I see it, the way for toss to play lategame zvp, is get a fourth, stargate, fleet beacon, as you say, but get mothership and defend the bl/infestor ball by using defensive posturing, cannons, and the threat of a good vortex since you are in a spread out, good, defensive position that zerg really can't engage against safely, and then get speed prism and a shitton of gates, and just do a shitton of mass zealot, maybe even DT, harass on the bases before zerg has a ton of spines at every single base, and at the same time secure your 5th behind the harass, and get your carrier ball going, and really rely on the mobility of speed prism, blink stalkers, and recall to prevent zerg from just denying your fifth or going to kill you with mass IT spam + bl aggression, as you get that fifth base up so you can afford that carrier fleet to win the game.
monk has talked about it a bit, you could probably search stuff by him on that.
slowlings aren't going to do shit against this fast third against the cannons toss could put up, and warp ins. obviously fast third play is stronger on certain maps. i dont even know if toss can go fast third against mass roach/ling aggression on a map like shakuras, but on most maps i think fast third is the way to go and you are totally safe. cloud kingdom? daybreak? ohana even? theres just nothing zerg can do aggression-wise that toss who takes a quick third, can't handle, and the quicker the third the easier it will be to hold (although cheese will be harder to hold, hence why you dont do this if zerg is cheesing and doesnt take a third right away and have drones at his nat).
i think high master is something like 1500 points right now. if someone who was 1300 points said they were high master i dont think anyone would grief him about it.
Thanks Belial for summarizing my guide in layman's (sp?) terms. The 6:30 3rd, is that even possible O_o. About to use search function now and prepare to have my mind blown!
Check out a thread I posted, something like "[h] how to deal with stupidly fast third zvp" where I post asking help against someone who did this. Unlike a standard robo expand 9:00+, which is susceptible to muta play, super fast thirds like this are very strong against mutas. the guy i played also streamed, so you can see the toss play and his point of view. he actually explains it quite well. the game went whatever, and i was fine, but i lost to a stupid vortex and the game went on for another 30 minutes (the guy was pretty happy to win, i dont think he realized i had zero chance to win after the vortex at like 18:00 and just wasnt closeable until much later), but he talks about how safe his build is and that zerg can't do anything to punish it, something i struggled with throughout the game.
nowadays my response to super fast thirds from toss is just not make any roach tech and go super fast broodlords, 5 bases, and 100+ drones and fast hive, but if i see a robo expand, like in this build, i will go mutas and just play a standard muta game.
On a side note, i really dont think void rays are useful in lategame zvp. I think you are better off getting carriers. the way I see it, the way for toss to play lategame zvp, is get a fourth, stargate, fleet beacon, as you say, but get mothership and defend the bl/infestor ball by using defensive posturing, cannons, and the threat of a good vortex since you are in a spread out, good, defensive position that zerg really can't engage against safely, and then get speed prism and a shitton of gates, and just do a shitton of mass zealot, maybe even DT, harass on the bases before zerg has a ton of spines at every single base, and at the same time secure your 5th behind the harass, and get your carrier ball going, and really rely on the mobility of speed prism, blink stalkers, and recall to prevent zerg from just denying your fifth or going to kill you with mass IT spam + bl aggression, as you get that fifth base up so you can afford that carrier fleet to win the game.
monk has talked about it a bit, you could probably search stuff by him on that.
slowlings aren't going to do shit against this fast third against the cannons toss could put up, and warp ins. obviously fast third play is stronger on certain maps. i dont even know if toss can go fast third against mass roach/ling aggression on a map like shakuras, but on most maps i think fast third is the way to go and you are totally safe. cloud kingdom? daybreak? ohana even? theres just nothing zerg can do aggression-wise that toss who takes a quick third, can't handle, and the quicker the third the easier it will be to hold (although cheese will be harder to hold, hence why you dont do this if zerg is cheesing and doesnt take a third right away and have drones at his nat).
i think high master is something like 1500 points right now. if someone who was 1300 points said they were high master i dont think anyone would grief him about it.
Just on the Voidrays,
Axslav goes into detail about using Skillrays and about transitioning into sky toss.
Late game question - not really central to this build, I know, but you recommend going heavy zealot/archon vs ling/infestor and fast hive. Does this change if he also has banelings in the mix? Or would you wait for storm?
Thanks Belial for summarizing my guide in layman's (sp?) terms. The 6:30 3rd, is that even possible O_o. About to use search function now and prepare to have my mind blown!
Check out a thread I posted, something like "[h] how to deal with stupidly fast third zvp" where I post asking help against someone who did this. Unlike a standard robo expand 9:00+, which is susceptible to muta play, super fast thirds like this are very strong against mutas. the guy i played also streamed, so you can see the toss play and his point of view. he actually explains it quite well. the game went whatever, and i was fine, but i lost to a stupid vortex and the game went on for another 30 minutes (the guy was pretty happy to win, i dont think he realized i had zero chance to win after the vortex at like 18:00 and just wasnt closeable until much later), but he talks about how safe his build is and that zerg can't do anything to punish it, something i struggled with throughout the game.
nowadays my response to super fast thirds from toss is just not make any roach tech and go super fast broodlords, 5 bases, and 100+ drones and fast hive, but if i see a robo expand, like in this build, i will go mutas and just play a standard muta game.
On a side note, i really dont think void rays are useful in lategame zvp. I think you are better off getting carriers. the way I see it, the way for toss to play lategame zvp, is get a fourth, stargate, fleet beacon, as you say, but get mothership and defend the bl/infestor ball by using defensive posturing, cannons, and the threat of a good vortex since you are in a spread out, good, defensive position that zerg really can't engage against safely, and then get speed prism and a shitton of gates, and just do a shitton of mass zealot, maybe even DT, harass on the bases before zerg has a ton of spines at every single base, and at the same time secure your 5th behind the harass, and get your carrier ball going, and really rely on the mobility of speed prism, blink stalkers, and recall to prevent zerg from just denying your fifth or going to kill you with mass IT spam + bl aggression, as you get that fifth base up so you can afford that carrier fleet to win the game.
monk has talked about it a bit, you could probably search stuff by him on that.
slowlings aren't going to do shit against this fast third against the cannons toss could put up, and warp ins. obviously fast third play is stronger on certain maps. i dont even know if toss can go fast third against mass roach/ling aggression on a map like shakuras, but on most maps i think fast third is the way to go and you are totally safe. cloud kingdom? daybreak? ohana even? theres just nothing zerg can do aggression-wise that toss who takes a quick third, can't handle, and the quicker the third the easier it will be to hold (although cheese will be harder to hold, hence why you dont do this if zerg is cheesing and doesnt take a third right away and have drones at his nat).
i think high master is something like 1500 points right now. if someone who was 1300 points said they were high master i dont think anyone would grief him about it.
Agree with most things here, besides the carrier fleet. Carrier fleets actually output less dps than vrs in a huge ball if upgrades favor zerg (which they will if he is smart and decides to do a corrup heavy inf/bl timing while you are sinking money into carriers. I think casters are a bit to blame in saying that if you get to critical mass of carriers, nothing will kill them. The fact of the matter is that if z is 1 armor ahead of your attack upgrades, carriers do significantly less dps than voidrays due to the fact that carrier dps is based of off quick, constant fire from interceptors, increasing the amount of damage mitigated by an armor upgrade on z's side. I think you should watch the pro corner w/ axslav vid someone linked above me. A few carriers (4-5 max) are good for forcing engagement and sniping outlying infestors or broodlords. Just using them for range while relying on storm+vr for crazy dps output.
On August 13 2012 16:13 eugalp wrote: Late game question - not really central to this build, I know, but you recommend going heavy zealot/archon vs ling/infestor and fast hive. Does this change if he also has banelings in the mix? Or would you wait for storm?
If he has banelings you want to still go charge+archon but have an obs over his army/watching your flanks so you can see where to put archons (in front if he has all of his banelings to meet you head on, to the sides if he has baneling flanks, etc). Also you want to be splitting zealots pre and mid engagement. Archon/chargezealots actually destroy ling/inf/bling because archons get shots off on the baneling mass while they roll by to try to get your zealots. If they blow up on archons, they are being cost inefficient and then the zeals come in and kill everything. Not to mention that no reasonable amount of banelings should be beating 8 ish archons that are spread out... :D
^ That was interesting. I don't know. It IS true, as far as I see it, that carriers will rock anything Zerg has once you have enough of them. Maybe Voidray+Storm can kill anything zerg has too, but I do think it's true that once you have enough carriers, nothing zerg has can beat them.
I don't know about the void rays. That zerg in that video, suppy, made a really stupid engagement of like 8 corruptors vs like 10+ void rays, a ton of stalkers, and storm, with no infestors, i dont know why he thought he could win that. I think with broodlord support against the HT, enough infestors should work well against vr+ht.
I don't see zerg being ahead in armor against toss air,with chronoboost and the late spire and the need to get greater spire going. Double spire is ridiculously expensive, i dont think zerg can expect to be far ahead of toss in air upgrades.
On August 14 2012 08:13 TangSC wrote: This has made my PvZ so much stronger, thank you!
Wat. I get Tang seal of approval?!?!?! so happy :D Maybe you can play some games vs me so I can get some more reps? Magic.532
On August 14 2012 09:14 Wombat_NI wrote: I know a guide will likely be good when it doesn't have the creator's name attached to it a la 'Gamer's unbeatable PvZ ladder build'
Didn't disappoint, great guide, some cool discussion afterwards. Good to know that the strategy forum still has some dedicated posters in it
Thanks for the kind words; 'tis my first guide and glad to know that you enjoyed it. Hopefully your PvZ will now be ~100% w/l ratio >:D
EPT
but i'll get on it early in the week. As to those that doubt my age (I don't even think I should be granting a response.... -_-), I could care less whether you think I'm actually 14 or not, and I'd much rather you make my age a nonfactor and have it simply be something I'm telling you about myself (because i'm amicable and awesome); something that doesn't impact the validity of my guide. If you think my writing is so good that I can't be this young, I'm truly flattered 
