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On August 10 2012 02:28 Kreos.Z wrote:
I don't think there's any one build that can or should be able to be strong against every single viable opener. In order for a zerg to have speed finished by 7:20, he would need gas started by 4:20. There's no way that a zerg could reactively scout for a quick third base (before 8 mins) and get speedlings up to "hard counter" the build, it would have to have been his intentions from the beginning of the game to get early gas, which is not beneficial/characteristic of a 3 hatch build. Against early gas, you would be forced to deviate and take a slightly later expansion which is completely okay since the zerg will have lost drones mining gas, and lost drones making the 20+ speedlings needed to force the expo to cancel. There is absolutely nothing wrong with turtling up a couple of warp-in rounds and taking a later expo if the zerg is also cutting economy.
This quote is very important to note.
For those wondering how to react to Lings, it is perfectly acceptable to drop whatever your initial plan was if it means adopting a new plan which is better suited to your current situation and intelligence gathering. Flexibility and adaptability are key traits to have in a game of SC2 and it's important to use them or you will run yourself into a brick wall if the opponent has flexibility or adaptation of their own to combat your strategy.
The point of early harass in PvZ is to prevent the Zerg from non-stop drone production. If the Zerg player voluntarily stops mass droning by creating Lings instead...then do you really need to harass? No. The goal has already been achieved. Instead of blindly following a build order, you should focus on your next goal - obtaining a 3rd - and even if it takes a little more time than usual it's alright because your opponent is behind on his goals.
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Awesome guide man! I'm really looking forward to trying it out. One quick question: You mention you cut probes when you are fully saturated at your main and nat before putting down your third. Are you talking 22 probes at each base? or more? Then, when do you start resuming probes to quickly saturate the 3rd?
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AWESOME and detailed guide. i love it
more importantly, 14 year old high masters? give me your life T_T
edit:
On August 10 2012 05:40 basballguy wrote:
Why did you put your "age" in this post like it was relevent? More importantly, why would you lie and say you''re 14?
You can accomplish everything you're asking for in this thread without pretending to be 14.
hes allowed to be proud that hes reached such a high skill at such a young age. not everybody can be as modest and humble as you.
also its rude to assume hes lying just because that makes him better than you
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United States9232 Posts
On August 10 2012 06:34 snively wrote:AWESOME and detailed guide. i love it more importantly, 14 year old high masters? give me your life T_T edit: Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 05:40 basballguy wrote:
Why did you put your "age" in this post like it was relevent? More importantly, why would you lie and say you''re 14?
You can accomplish everything you're asking for in this thread without pretending to be 14. hes allowed to be proud that hes reached such a high skill at such a young age. not everybody can be as modest and humble as you. also its rude to assume hes lying just because that makes him better than you
To be fair, I've never understood why you should be impressed by young age. If anything, it should be more common. At age 14, you don't have a job, you don't party, and you can't drive. What the fuck do you do with your time? Mass gaming. That's what I did at least.
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His use of diction and sentence structure leads me to believe that he isn't 14 years of age. The writing seems a bit too mature of a 14 year old North American kid if you ask me...
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On August 10 2012 09:21 Catchafire2000 wrote:
His use of diction and sentence structure leads me to believe that he isn't 14 years of age. The writing seems a bit too mature of a 14 year old North American kid if you ask me...
Who gives a shit if he is or isn't 14 years old? It's like the 2008 Beijing Olympics when there was that discrepancy between the female Chinese gymnasts and whether or not they were too young to compete. If a 14 year old can kick your ass at a game, more power to him. If he's not 14 years old and can still kick your ass at the game, what's the difference?
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On August 10 2012 09:21 Catchafire2000 wrote:
His use of diction and sentence structure leads me to believe that he isn't 14 years of age. The writing seems a bit too mature of a 14 year old North American kid if you ask me...
There are always exceptions =P Not everyone learns at the same pace.
As for the guide, I'll definitely try to make it my go to build, I love playing macro games :D
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United States9232 Posts
On August 10 2012 09:21 Catchafire2000 wrote:
His use of diction and sentence structure leads me to believe that he isn't 14 years of age. The writing seems a bit too mature of a 14 year old North American kid if you ask me...
lol that doesn't mean shit. My essays from when I was 12 kicked the shit out of the VAST majority of people's essays in college (non English majors) that I had in my writing classes. I know because I kept a lot of my essays. I'm talking I could have turned those essays in final draft and received a solid A without question. To base that assumption on age is highly ignorant.
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I believe he's 14, but of course he's going to try to purposely sound mature, because he is 14. If he thinks he's special, he's not.
I don't see how this build is much different from a 4 gate robo expand. Sure you get the nexus before the gates, but I believe any 2 base roach/ling allin would kill it, same with baneling busts. I'd assume you'd scout for those, but those early units are vital for staying alive. There are also different maps that are more vulnerable, such as cloud kingdom, because there are many different entrances to the 3rd. On those maps you'd be better off making the great wall of gates, and going for a 3 base all-in because of that vulnerability.
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he has posts about him being in masters almost 2 years ago. I don't care that he's in masters...i like to get help wherever I can. What i'm saying is he doesn't need to pretend to be 14 to increase hits on his guide. The contents will do that itself.
And if you can show me a 12 year old masters player, i'll cut off my balls.
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United States9232 Posts
On August 10 2012 10:32 Fossa wrote:
I believe he's 14, but of course he's going to try to purposely sound mature, because he is 14. If he thinks he's special, he's not.
I don't see how this build is much different from a 4 gate robo expand. Sure you get the nexus before the gates, but I believe any 2 base roach/ling allin would kill it, same with baneling busts. I'd assume you'd scout for those, but those early units are vital for staying alive. There are also different maps that are more vulnerable, such as cloud kingdom, because there are many different entrances to the 3rd. On those maps you'd be better off making the great wall of gates, and going for a 3 base all-in because of that vulnerability.
... really?
On August 10 2012 10:35 basballguy wrote:
he has posts about him being in masters almost 2 years ago. I don't care that he's in masters...i like to get help wherever I can. What i'm saying is he doesn't need to pretend to be 14 to increase hits on his guide. The contents will do that itself.
And if you can show me a 12 year old masters player, i'll cut off my balls.
Why the fuck would that be surprising? 12 year olds have nothing else to do but play games.
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I used to get the gates before the third, I like this opening better. Been following it up with a 200/200 blink stalker/immortal push with 2-2-2 upgrades, hitting around 15:30/16:00, liking it a lot!
Thanks for this
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On August 10 2012 10:35 basballguy wrote:
And if you can show me a 12 year old masters player, i'll cut off my balls.
Don't be silly, Leenock won MLG at 16.
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Seems a little less greedy imo. I feel a better build would be to go ~6:30 Third, ie FFE 1gateCore(zealot/stalker)Third then robo, etc.
I feel like robo expands, even one like this, is a little susceptible to mutas. I know you can hold, but I think a both greedier and safer build would be a third taken before robo.
Only problem, obviously, is all-ins, but vigilantly scouting to make sure Zerg didn't get gas before third, and you should know enough to not go fast third.
Zerg builds are only strong after about 11:00+, and Fast Thirds like this by Toss generally get strong defensively around 10+, so it's safe against any fast third zerg doing any sort of attack. Gotta make sure you know if Zerg is going mutas or mass roach or quick hive though, but I think this will soon become standard play in ZvP, as Zerg really can't do anything about it, but they should be able to get broodlords in time as long as Zerg doesn't get any roaches.
This build is way different than a standard robo expand, which doesn't take a third until about 9:00+. Robo expands generally are weak against super fast mutas, but this build can be quite strong against any sort of fast third aggression. imo this will be the future of zvp (well not this, even quicker thirds than this really).
and lay off his age. who cares, there are plenty of ~14 year old players in masters, and there's some pro gamers that hover around that age too. This guy is only 1300 points masters, which is just mid-masters, it's not like he's a pro, but at the same time, he's at a respectable level.
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Nice guide, some helpful info on midgame responses here. I've been working on something similar, except gateway first for faster zealot/stalker poke and warpgate timing. If you are planning on investing on early units, you don't need the early cannon to be safe from slow lings, and you can always get it later if you scout a gas for speed. If you get a chance, try out a 13 gate, 15 pylon, 18 Nexus build and let me know how it goes.
On the lategame: when do you normally start transitioning out of Robo to VR/Mothership/HT/Archon? I am still experimenting to find a good timing to change my gas investment vs different zerg compositions. Do you try to leverage VR harass with recall at all?
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Thank you. I read the whole guide. I love it. Axslav on his stream was using the exact same end game army composition and tactics as you. Have you ever viewed his stream?
I'm looking forward to watching the replays and trying out this style. Thanks again!
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Watched a couple of replays. I feel like the +1 attack isn't really useful that early since you are not building gateways/zealots anyway. Also, it seemed like you were floating some unnecessary gas without any way to spend it early on. If you can delay your 3rd and 4th gas a bit, you could have your 3 warpgates as well as cannons at your third up faster.
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I used to do a similar style with stargate but if they just make 20ish lings or have an overlord seeing the nexus going up and then make 20ish lings you WILL be behind. Which is why making gates 2,3 and 4 before nexus is much superior because better players will easily punish your greed.
Another thing is that simcitying with gates that earlier creates chances for the zerg as well. You can still simcity in time with gates 5,6,7,8 to defend any serious threats.
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On August 10 2012 12:17 quillian wrote:
Nice guide, some helpful info on midgame responses here. I've been working on something similar, except gateway first for faster zealot/stalker poke and warpgate timing. If you are planning on investing on early units, you don't need the early cannon to be safe from slow lings, and you can always get it later if you scout a gas for speed. If you get a chance, try out a 13 gate, 15 pylon, 18 Nexus build and let me know how it goes.
On the lategame: when do you normally start transitioning out of Robo to VR/Mothership/HT/Archon? I am still experimenting to find a good timing to change my gas investment vs different zerg compositions. Do you try to leverage VR harass with recall at all?
You start transitioning into your late game air army of your choice when you secure a 4th base, have a mothership and can start harassing with speed prism. The less gateway units you can accomplish this with the stronger your late game army will be.
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On August 10 2012 04:12 Eifersuchtig wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 01:59 las91 wrote:
Great build, and I'm stoked to see some younger talent that isn't Korean changing some of dat metagame. I personally love the air/ht composition so I'll have to give this build a try next time I ladder! This won't be 'changing the metagame' as players have been doing it for over a year
Not effectively, and generally not as early as 7:20.
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EPT
