The thing is that we rarely see zerg peaple playing like this when they feel confortable in game. When some one is in danger he will be the best ''bitch" in game to regain advantage in.
Thats true indeed, but the game still showed how intensive the other races can be so this is in my eyes no arguement anymore. I am just waiting for Moon making his appearence adding the 4th race just like in Wacraft 3. It's the brilliance Koreans work with, while EU and NA sticks to a style everyone already knows the answeres against.
Moon did play sc2 extensively but it didnt go as fans expected.
I'm master league in KR and NA and I find the Korean Terrans do a number of things that make them much scarier:
- They don't always fast expand directly at their natural. When I scout with my overlord and don't see an expansion down I start going into anxiety mode, dropping spines and delaying tech. Then the fully completed OC drops into the natural, losing only a few seconds compared to if the Terran had built it right at the natural. And the other half the time they're actually doing a risky one-base rush.
- They know what sucks about Zerg and abuse the hell out of it. Zerg can't shoot up, so TvZ early game is all about using medivacs and banshees to mess up the Zerg economy. Zerg needs to see to survive, so preventing creep spread and sniping overlords kills Zerg's chances of survival. Zerg has no ranged units, so Shakuras Plateau and Antiga Shipyard are basically auto-wins for any Terran willing to exploit the cliffs. Zerg falls hard to unexpected tech, so showing up at Zerg's natural with 16 hellions (after preventing any sort of Zerg scouting) is an instant win for a zerg with bad sim city and no roaches. Zerg can't kill units being healed by medivacs, and they definitely can't kill marines in mineral lines, so the game for a lot of Koreans is to just get to those sweet spots where marines are invulnerable.
- Korean Terrans play very risky with their medivac drops. They lose them constantly but keep doing them because they know it just takes one good drop to end the game. Once those marines are sandwiched in the minerals they can't be killed. They also do multi-pronged drops while clearing creep with their main army.
- They never. leave. games. Shoot me now.
- As one mega bio/tank push is being swarmed the second is on the way. Day9 said Terrans generally wait 2 minutes between marine tank pushes. Not Korean Terrans. I have lost games because I literally did not have 20 seconds to morph banelings during 3 solid minutes of a constant stream of units. Ahead, behind, Korean do NOT care. They will keep attacking until someone dies.
- Koreans tend to trade a bigger economy for constant aggression. They tend to take their third very late and their fourth even later, if ever.
All in all the best way to describe the difference between Koreans and foreigners is by describing each's idea of a perfect game. To a foreign Terran the perfect game is getting away with taking a ridiculously greedy third. To a Korean Terran it's winning in the first 6 minutes. Zergs aren't scared of greedy Terrans, but they're terrified of risky rushes.
Well guys lets not forget there are a ton of new Korean players from Kespa who just joined SC2 ladder and are trying new weird stuff... Korean diamond just means a lot more than other servers, they got so much talent over there... Its like diamond in KR = top 1% of world High masters and masters KR = GM.
Maybe because of the massive popularity of BW, which meant that Koreans have on average better mechanics, which is most beneficial for Terran? (NOT saying Terran's harder than P/Z or any of that nonsense, just Terran often relies heavily on MMM which is extremely micro focused).
On August 28 2012 03:33 rysecake wrote: i hate the foreigner mentality that cheese = noob. I've played a few times on the korean ladder and I got my ass cheesed like a mother. start playing more aggessively foreigners and stop thinking that any attack prior to 20 minutes means you're a noob.
Just an fyi they aren't only good at cheese. Their execution and mechanics are still a lot better then foreign terrans (most). They can do a variety of styles and not just 1.
didnt he make the same point exactly? that one of the reasons koreans are better is because they use a variety of playstyles? He never said they just cheese.
On August 28 2012 04:23 _Search_ wrote: I'm master league in KR and NA and I find the Korean Terrans do a number of things that make them much scarier:
- They don't always fast expand directly at their natural. When I scout with my overlord and don't see an expansion down I start going into anxiety mode, dropping spines and delaying tech.
Then just drone scout. I hardly see what kind of Korean specificity lies in this aspect. Some players like to hide, some don't care, some always wall, some never.
On August 28 2012 04:23 _Search_ wrote: Zerg falls hard to unexpected tech, so showing up at Zerg's natural with 16 hellions (after preventing any sort of Zerg scouting) is an instant win for a zerg with bad sim city and no roaches.
Which is precisely impossible if you go for 2 fact hellions (with BFH or not) but whatever. Any Terran can win against a Zerg not bothering to scout and walling, doesn't take a Korean to exploit this kind of heavy mistake.
On August 28 2012 04:23 _Search_ wrote: All in all the best way to describe the difference between Koreans and foreigners is by describing each's idea of a perfect game. To a foreign Terran the perfect game is getting away with taking a ridiculously greedy third. To a Korean Terran it's winning in the first 6 minutes.
Then why do we see so many 1 rax FE → Hellions/Banshees → fast third? Shouldn't they 2 rax every game if their main goal was really winning in early game?...
Being as you study alongside your SC2 career what is your perspective on how much practice is needed to be competitive against the world's best players? Would you be better if you had the practice schedule of some of the Koreans? Is it necessary?
I wouldn't be better if I had more time, because I simply wouldn't feel like playing more than I do now. Koreans for sure play more than almost everybody else, there are a few hard working exceptions in foreign scene, but in general Koreans are playing more and nobody can deny that. If you want to keep your skill level, probably two hours a day is enough, but if you want to keep improving you probably need more. I think for Zerg it's not a big difference to play on the Korean or European/North American ladder, because we have only to work out safe builds vs. everything, and you can do it pretty much in every game. On the other hand, for Protoss or Terran it would be more beneficial to train in Korea.
Being as you study alongside your SC2 career what is your perspective on how much practice is needed to be competitive against the world's best players? Would you be better if you had the practice schedule of some of the Koreans? Is it necessary?
I wouldn't be better if I had more time, because I simply wouldn't feel like playing more than I do now. Koreans for sure play more than almost everybody else, there are a few hard working exceptions in foreign scene, but in general Koreans are playing more and nobody can deny that. If you want to keep your skill level, probably two hours a day is enough, but if you want to keep improving you probably need more. I think for Zerg it's not a big difference to play on the Korean or European/North American ladder, because we have only to work out safe builds vs. everything, and you can do it pretty much in every game. On the other hand, for Protoss or Terran it would be more beneficial to train in Korea.
If a new build is developed by a Korean that kills in the first 15 minutes, it's called a timing and everybody picks up on it and perfects it.
If a new build is developed by a US masters player that kills in the first 15 minutes, it's seen as a bad way to play and the higher level players ignore it or only concentrate on a counter build and scouting the aggressive build.
Truly, it reminds me of the Street Fighter 2 mindset I was exposed to back in the day. There were so many places that considered throwing cheesey. Of course that eliminates half of the game and encourages strategies that may or may not work against players that know how to play well and also throw.
Same can be said of StarCraft 2. It seems like at least in the US culture... for the most part Teamliquid, casters, and many US/NA players in the public eye encourage players to hate 4 gates, hate aggression, hate baneling busts, hate bio, and only think about long defensive games. I'm exaggerating a little, but you get my meaning. And sometimes the only aggressive players left in the US are the people with the worst attitude that nobody wants to be associated with.
Luckily in Korea, they know better. Macro is important, so is micro. Long games are fine, but short aggressive games are just as fine... and long aggressive games are really fine.
I've got one more. How many of you stay in the game when you know you are behind and have a small chance to win? This is probably one of the best times to learn how to play better. Better micro. Better harassment. Better feints. Better cost efficiency.
If you can only win when you have a huge economic/production advantage, then chances are you are missing out on half of the game.
On August 27 2012 11:35 SigmaoctanusIV wrote: The difference between KR and EU/NA is aggression, Koreans just get this itch to go kill you, and have crazy good all-ins
Dont lie to yourself...allins or no allins.. koreans are just better its simple..
most pro players play with no build and its usually all improvised after the first 5 minutes based upon their information at the time.
even the stephano style 12minute roach max wasnt really a build if you want to call it that, instead it was a playstyle where stephano had a goal in mind and macro'ed towards that goal but he would change his plans if he scouted something that required a reaction, so in the end its not really a "build" as much as it is "reactionary playstyle with high game understanding"
Sure theirs certain "builds" a zerg might do like 15hatch 4queens whatever but usually everything after the first 5 minutes is not part of a "build" they decided before the game started, instead things done after the first 5minutes are decisions that were made after the game started which means it can no longer be considered a build, but instead its strategy/reaction/game-understanding"
but im just talking about all progamers in general. just was annoyed at some people in this thread talking about how the korean terrans have "much better builds that come from superior game understanding etc".... i think thats wrong. i think "builds" are something that most good players throw away as they become better and after thats its almost all reactionary.
instead, korean terrans dont have "much better builds that come from superior game understanding etc"... no, korean terrans have ""much better playing styles that come from superior game understanding etc"
but why do korean terrans have that compared to foreign terrans, while korean zergs/tosses do not seem to have that compared to foreign zergs/tosses? it certainly seems like this is the case. but why?
probably like someone said earlier in this thread, this is a "terran is harder to play" thread in disguise. However I believe that probably is 100% the reason. So yeah, I guess this is a "terran is harder ot play" thread
but I think the word "harder" is the wrong word. Instead I think terran as a race just has more playstyle depth than the other 2 races. This means players in diamond KR who are terran naturally had to understand much more about the game than zergs/tosses in diamond KR. This means naturally every terran you face in diamond KR is likely to be much more scary than zergs/tosses in diamond KR because they just understand more about the game by the nature of the terran race and how it has so much versatility in playstyle so a player needing to understand more options means he understands more about the game
ive seen DRG and MKP and Destinys stream and honestly DRG/MKP dont play much faster than destiny. Some might spam more for more APM, but the rate at which they switch screen positions and control army and macro units and make buildings seems to be fairly even. In my opinion the top pros generally have similar mechanics and its their skill/game understanding that causes them to win.
On August 27 2012 11:35 SigmaoctanusIV wrote: The difference between KR and EU/NA is aggression, Koreans just get this itch to go kill you, and have crazy good all-ins
Dont lie to yourself...allins or no allins.. koreans are just better its simple..
I don't think you understand what he meant. He didn't just say all ins, he also said that they were really aggressive. If you watch a Korean TvT you will see that they are constantly trying to get position on each other, or take out one of their opponents bases. Whereas if you watch a foreign TvT they will mainly focus everything in one place, instead of splitting up their army and being properly aggressive.
We let the koreans innovate and dictate the meta game too much imo. Therefor they will always be ahead, since we mimick exactly what they have sucess with. Also.. they train a lot more lol.
EPT
