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http://www.livestream.com/insaniyardim
Live stream from the ship if anyone is interested.
On May 31 2010 22:26 beetlejuice wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 22:22 jello_biafra wrote:
The Israeli response was disproportionate but they had fair warning and shouldn't have been sailing to Gaza in the first place... why? say that they warned. they don't have a right to stop. the blockade isn't legal. they SHOULD have been sailing to gaza without worrying about an interruption.that should what happened if we are talking about rights and what is just.
I'm not talking about rights and what is just though, I'm saying that Israel told them they would stop them with force if necessary (and when Israel says something like that you'd better believe it), so they should have known this would definitely happen and found an alternative way to deliver aid.
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As an Israeli that does NOT feel that this was handled as well as it could be, as a person who has been to Nablus, Ramallah, Jericho, Gaza, and other places in person, who actually knows Palestinians and Israelis, I felt obligated to give a localized perspective. I am a human rights activist, non-religious (agnostic), and I am most definitely pro-peace (moderate/pragmatic left-wing), but I have had friends killed in this conflict. Now that all my biases are clear, here are replies, additions, explanations and addendums to various comments which I found incomplete, wrong, or biased. I have went through the entire thread, and in my replies here are also replies to many other opinions voiced here.
On May 31 2010 15:10 Empyrean wrote:
I'm also pretty outraged that they had the audacity to attack such a flotilla. Granted, I can kind of see where they're coming from (if they don't make a stand, what's to say other ships won't bring in weapons or whatever?), but couldn't there have been a more err...non-violent way of addressing the issue? Anyone's thoughts? I know it's a pretty controversial issue, so please stay civilized.
Israel had exhausted all non-violent means, including offering a way for aid to be transport into Gaza IF IT WAS SEARCHED FOR WEAPONS. The whole point of the floatilla was breaking the blockade in order for things OTHER than relief to enter. There are no problems getting food, water, fuel, medical supplies, etc. into Gaza. You could argue that this was an obvious relief effort - unfortunately, the Hammas has previously used relief via the sea as a platform for smuggling things such as anti-tank missiles, high explosives, and heavy machine guns.
With this background, the whole point of the floatilla was THAT news report, and THESE reactions:
+ Show Spoiler +On May 31 2010 15:11 evanthebouncy! wrote:
never liked isreal... that country would be nothing if America doesn't back it up. On May 31 2010 15:17 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 15:13 illu wrote:
Are we going to compare Israel with North Korea?
Both with huge army? Yes
Both with nukes? Yes
Both like to sink ships? Yes
Both with great power behind their back? Yes But Israel is on the Good side and North Korea is part of the axis of evil. On May 31 2010 15:22 Two_DoWn wrote:
God dammit. US just needs to realize that Israel is a failed experiment, and that actually dealing with and supporting arab countries might be the answer. At least Israel is the Brits fault in the first place.
On May 31 2010 15:50 QibingZero wrote:
The sad thing is I'm pretty sure the Israeli Army actually has their people believing every aid convoy is really a secret plot to try to arm the Palestinian resistance. Ugh. -.-
This is no secret plot. This is a direct attempt to break the blockade. There have been attempts at smuggling weapons via the sea earlier, but it would take a total retard to try and smuggle them on the mentioned floatilla. The whole point of it is to force Israel to not search for weapons on ships entering Gaza, and unfortunately, due to the history between Hammas and Israel, that is an unacceptable security risk; they are already firing missiles into Israel.
The means to this end is that Israel can't afford not to search the floatilla, and therefor, it is a massive publicity stunt. They did it knowing that confrontation was inevitable, that because of some douchebag violence will ensue, and then the headlines will be "EVIL ISRAEL ATTACKS DEFENSELESS SUPPORT FOR POOR CHILDREN, think about the children!".
And despite what you think, the Israeli army has very little in the way of PR. It's the politicians who do that work, just like in every other country.
On May 31 2010 16:00 zrules wrote:
The saddest part is: it will not crack mainstream U.S. news because U.S. stations don't feel an obligation to report "small problems like these." It's truly sad that the U.S. considers entertainment news on their favorite celebrities more important than news about people in the world who are living lives a worse condition than they themselves. It is sad to say, but the truth be told, people just don't seem to value these kinds of stories all too much. Most people only care about their lives and their problems. While it might be in relation to the culture that we are in. We strive to succeed for ourselves, when we want something as the U.S. we are going to do whatever it is to get it (Our gas is cheaper than almost every other country in the world...). In that same respect, unless we are spoon fed news, we don't really care about people in Europe having an economic meltdown, or the latest breaking of Geneva convention rules. Only when it might directly affect us by having our economy go down or have a potential war that we are supposed to prevent on our hands, do we finally get involved.
Now, my opinion: It's ridiculous for Israel to continually prevent the building of homes. The easiest way to make a radical is to deprive them of necessities, kill close individuals to that person, and give group more leverage in convincing individuals... It almost feels like Israel is trying to make a self-imposed Holocaust on residents of the Gaza strip, keeping them in a situation where traditional feelings of freedom that once echoed in America is continually alive, yet said wish for freedom results in the deaths of individuals which eventually becomes a self-imposed Holocaust of Palestinians trapped within a territory.
Counting on international media is terrible, what is considered by many WW3 happened in Africa (millions of dead, many countries involved, with the death toll increasing by hundreds of thousands annually due to disease and starvation caused by that war) was largely unreported because it wasn't news. That aside, if every time a few people died and 30 were injured was reported, then EVERY SERIOUS BUS ACCIDENT WORLDWIDE WOULD BE ON CNN. You'd see nothing but that, 24/7.
Comparing Gaza to the concentration camps is wrong on so many levels, as I have had grandparents that survived concentration camps, and have personally been in Gaza, and I can tell you that this comparison is invalid on so many levels that it more shows that you are willing to compare Nazis and Israelis using ignorance as an excuse than anything else.
On May 31 2010 16:10 EmeraldSparks wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 16:06 Empyrean wrote:On May 31 2010 16:02 EmeraldSparks wrote:On May 31 2010 15:58 illu wrote:On May 31 2010 15:48 EmeraldSparks wrote:
I believe the Israeli response was disproportionate.
My guess as to Israeli policy was:
Non-resistance will be met by non-violence. Non-lethal resistance ill be met by non-lethality. Lethal resistance will be met by lethality.
I agree with that. That ship looks perfectly harmless and it's certainly not a battleship. However, all of the suicide bombers look 'harmless' too. They either go by themselves, or drive a car (which is not a conventional weapon). These ships are carrying members of parliaments across Europe, former American congressmen, Nobel Laureates and the like. It would be absurdly unlikely that they would be bearing firearms or explosives. This puts Israel in a really tough spot diplomatically. What IF weapons were found on some of those ships carrying those notable people? Lusitania style :/ This would, full stop, be the best possible thing that could happen for Israel diplomatically. Total public relations coup. Tremendous victory. Terrible terrible discrediting of anti-Israel factions.
No it won't. Actually, my bet is that it would be reported in one line on CNN and MSNBC, and that's it.
On May 31 2010 16:25 Gnaix wrote:
When did the Jews get so fucking violent? Oh wait, that's because we gave them weapons and they started pwning all of the middle east...
So now it's the Jews, not the Israelis? Well, nice to see people like you crawling out the woodwork.
On May 31 2010 16:29 Jibba wrote:Why do you think this is going to change the situation in Gaza? It's been in this state for years, and it's not just the Israelis to blame for creating this humanitarian crisis. Egypt is the one who built the wall. Saudis help finance it. The AKP will probably use it for political victory in Turkey once again, but they're not really concerned with Palestinians; they just have their own geo-political conflict going on with Israel. It's horrible what happened, but why would anything change? Assuming Israel wants to continue on a path of statism, it has the leverage and is really not dependent on the US anymore. EDIT: Gideon Levi's editorial in Haaretz. This was from before the attack. + Show Spoiler +Gaza flotilla drives Israel into a sea of stupidity
Of course the peace flotilla will not bring peace, and it won't even manage to reach the Gaza shore. The action plan has included dragging the ships to Ashdod port, but it has again dragged us to the shores of stupidity and wrongdoing
By Gideon Levy
The Israeli propaganda machine has reached new highs its hopeless frenzy. It has distributed menus from Gaza restaurants, along with false information. It embarrassed itself by entering a futile public relations battle, which it might have been better off never starting. They want to maintain the ineffective, illegal and unethical siege on Gaza and not let the "peace flotilla" dock off the Gaza coast? There is nothing to explain, certainly not to a world that will never buy the web of explanations, lies and tactics.
Only in Israel do people still accept these tainted goods. Reminiscent of a pre-battle ritual from ancient times, the chorus cheered without asking questions. White uniformed soldiers got ready in our name. Spokesmen delivered their deceptive explanations in our name. The grotesque scene is at our expense. And virtually none of us have disturbed the performance.
The chorus has been singing songs of falsehood and lies. We are all in the chorus saying there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza. We are all part of the chorus claiming the occupation of Gaza has ended, and that the flotilla is a violent attack on Israeli sovereignty - the cement is for building bunkers and the convoy is being funded by the Turkish Muslim Brotherhood. The Israeli siege of Gaza will topple Hamas and free Gilad Shalit. Foreign Ministry spokesman Yossi Levy, one of the most ridiculous of the propagandists, outdid himself when he unblinkingly proclaimed that the aid convoy headed toward Gaza was a violation of international law. Right. Exactly.
It's not the siege that is illegal, but rather the flotilla. It wasn't enough to distribute menus from Gaza restaurants through the Prime Minister's Office, (including the highly recommended beef Stroganoff and cream of spinach soup ) and flaunt the quantities of fuel that the Israeli army spokesman says Israel is shipping in. The propaganda operation has tried to sell us and the world the idea that the occupation of Gaza is over, but in any case, Israel has legal authority to bar humanitarian aid. All one pack of lies.
Only one voice spoiled the illusory celebration a little: an Amnesty International report on the situation in Gaza. Four out of five Gaza residents need humanitarian assistance. Hundreds are waiting to the point of embarrassment to be allowed out for medical treatment, and 28 already have died. This is despite all the Israeli army spokesman's briefings on the absence of a siege and the presence of assistance, but who cares?
And the preparations for the operation are also reminiscent of a particularly amusing farce: the feverish debate among the septet of ministers; the deployment of the Masada unit, the prison service's commando unit that specializes in penetrating prison cells; naval commando fighters with backup from the special police anti-terror unit and the army's Oketz canine unit; a special detention facility set up at the Ashdod port; and the electronic shield that was supposed to block broadcast of the ship's capture and the detention of those on board.
And all of this in the face of what? A few hundred international activists, mostly people of conscience whose reputation Israeli propaganda has sought to besmirch. They are really mostly people who care, which is their right and obligation, even if the siege doesn't concern us at all. Yes, this flotilla is indeed a political provocation, and what is protest action if not political provocation?
And facing them on the seas has been the Israeli ship of fools, floating but not knowing where or why. Why detain people? That's how it is. Why a siege? That's how it is. It's like the Noam Chomsky affair all over again, but big time this time. Of course the peace flotilla will not bring peace, and it won't even manage to reach the Gaza shore. The action plan has included dragging the ships to Ashdod port, but it has again dragged us to the shores of stupidity and wrongdoing. Again we will be portrayed not only as the ones that have blocked assistance, but also as fools who do everything to even further undermine our own standing. If that was one of the goals of the peace flotilla's organizers, they won big yesterday.
Five years ago, the noted Peruvian writer Mario Vargas Llosa, who is a Jerusalem Prize laureate, after concluding his visit to Israel, said the Israeli occupation was approaching its grotesque phase. Over the weekend Vargas Llosa, who considers himself a friend of Israel, was present to see that that phase has since reached new heights of absurdity.
Gideon Levi (and most of the Ha'aretz editorial staff) are tend to get a lot of publicity by trolling the Israeli public. I'm a reader of that paper (they report news very well, and have some journalistic integrty). Only Amira Hess is more of a troll than this guy is. There is a reason why despite being the best in reporting international, political and economical news they are much smaller than the two big papers in Israel. And the proper response to trolls is to not repost or dignify their crap.
On May 31 2010 16:32 scion wrote:
People saying Israel has right to defend itself needs to get some information on the area. They get attacked precisely because of behaviors like this. They literally assume every Palestinians are potential threat. Israeli military drive Palestinians from their home, blockade them from Israel (literally walling them off) and segregate entire Palestinians living in Israel. Most Americans are oblivious to these things because American media avoid any negative news from Israel, and focuses on how Hamas and other Palestinian extremist groups attack Israel from all sides.
What Israelis are doing to the Palestinian population is fueling the extremist groups. Wouldn't you be angry if one day, army tank shows up and demolish your neighborhood and told you to leave the area because you are not authorized to live there?
This is almost positively another example of overreaction from Israel. I really hope the International community grows a pair to criticize and punish their action if it turns out to be the case.
I used to be in the same opinion of yours, and then while (during my military service) we did a search in the road entering a small town, we found rifles hidden in an ambulance. Unfortunately, if Israel makes any exceptions for searches, those will be exploited, and therefor Israel is forced to resort to things like this. It's an ugly situation, and of course it makes Israel look bad. But that is the entire point, and I totally agree with you that Israel is fueling the extremist groups by it's actions. I find it brutal cynicism by the Hammas abusing this - they have no intention of allowing Israel to ease up on these actions because it would not serve them well.
The average Palestinian, just as the average Israeli, wants peace. Everyone that has been involved in the conflict directly (and isn't nuts) just wants it to be over. But peace talks have failed before because they were rushed and went ahead too far too fast (that one is on Clinton) or were thwarted by politicians caring more about their power and staying in office than solving this messed up situation (Olmert, Hammas, Bush).
On May 31 2010 16:36 san-tokie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 16:08 ilbh wrote:On May 31 2010 15:19 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 31 2010 15:17 T.O.P. wrote:On May 31 2010 15:13 illu wrote:
Are we going to compare Israel with North Korea?
Both with huge army? Yes
Both with nukes? Yes
Both like to sink ships? Yes
Both with great power behind their back? Yes But Israel is on the Good side and North Korea is part of the axis of evil. lol I wonder why you lol'ed... Do some research on Mossad's activities and their agenda. They are believed by many to have orchestrated 9/11, as well as various other attacks on the US whilst posing as Palestinians. Basically Israel used the US to cripple Afghanistan and Iraq. Iran is inevitably next. "Good guys" don't exist anymore in today's world.
Ah yes, the "JEWS DID 9/11" argument.
On May 31 2010 16:43 Mystlord wrote:
Time to pull aid from Israel!
Please? This is just ridiculous.
Actually, the reason the aid is in place is to force Israel to not make arms deals with China, Russia and other international powers (massive deals were canceled because of requests by the US), force Israel to shut down certain military projects ( a good example is the IAI Lavi), to subsidize US arms manufacturers and business (Israel is forced to not spend it on local military products but only on US ones) and in order to get a strong political/military foothold in the middle-east. Unfortunately, the US uses Israel in the same way Iran use Lebanon - it is an indirect conflict of two great powers funding clashes on a global scale. The anti-Israeli sentiment in Iran is an extension of the anti-US sentiment (if you want corroboration, look at information about the Islamic revolution there). The implications of pulling that aid are huge.
On May 31 2010 16:50 Emon_ wrote:It's all about occupation. Israel wants to cripple Palestine and keep them isolated from the outside world. I'm sure this is the Jewish faith at it's finest. Seriously, why the fuck would you not allow another country to get 14 ton worth of supplies, which in itself is a piss in the sea compared to what they actually need in humanitarian aid. Ten are confirmed dead. Killed on international water. + Show Spoiler [offensive language] +Seriously, go fuck yourself Israel. And anyone who supports this bullshit.
Israel doesn't want to cripple anyone. Israel is sick and tired of it's people getting killed. You have no idea how much the situation here is complicated. You choose one side without knowing the facts, and that's very easy from far away. Because once you zoom out enough, it's as simple as "big country vs. small country". + Show Spoiler [offensive retort] +And for saying this has anything to do with the Jewish religion: FUCK YOU, you have some serious soul searching to do if you even have one of those to search
On May 31 2010 17:16 Sabu113 wrote:
The difference between the West and Israel is that Israel plays to win. Also all the rational groups that want peace are being outbred by the religious extremists. So yeah peace, humanity and a good outcome are not likely to be found soon barring some dramatic event.
Unfortunately, you are at least partially correct. Most people want peace, but it just feels so far out of reach nowadays. Each generation is not more extreme than the last, just more pessimistic. Most people just accept that the situation is shit, and will be for a long, LONG time.
On May 31 2010 18:04 mdb wrote:
Its so terrible. This conflict will never end as long as the country of Israel is in this location. I think the people who decided to build Israel on this place surrounded by Muslims and on muslim land are either the most stupid or the biggest trolls ever.
On May 31 2010 21:41 WeSt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 15:11 evanthebouncy! wrote:
never liked isreal... that country would be nothing if America doesn't back it up. Same as Kuweit. Some countries really piss me off because Israel shouldn't even exist if it wasn't the UK and the USA. People living in Palestine for thousands of years and then some assholes decide to divide their country into bits, take your most important city, and make a new countries. What's funny about this is that most people see Israel as the good guys... Sigh.
Notice that Israel is the only country in the world which is delegitimized in such a way. There is no other country that people talk about and say "it should never have been founded". Israel is a fact, and it's here. It was created as a response to about 1500 years of segregation and hate (in everything from the church to Shakespeare's The Merchant of Venice - which is not any more racist than any other view of the Jews at the time), culminating in a medium case of attempted genocide. This is the only place the Jewish people had agreed on for such a state and had been settling it for the better part of a fifty years at the time (prior to which there was practically no people living there, neither Jewish nor otherwise).
The conflict will end. It has to. You have no idea how much people are sick of all the death and destruction.
On May 31 2010 20:10 Masamune wrote:
The scary part about all this is that if Israel commits such acts like these out in the open, who knows what the hell happens behind closed doors; I've read about horror stories in Gaza commited by Israel. This time, they were unfortunate enough to have attacked western aid workers, which is probably why the spotlight is shining even brighter on the whole situation.
Someone earlier had sympathized with Israel because of it being surrounded by Arab states--and both sides here are at blame--but if I had the choice, I'd rather be surrounded by the Arabs than the Israelis, assuming we didn't get along.
There is no military presence inside Gaza - rather than in accordance with the Geneva convention, Israel reserves the right to return fire towards the source of the attack, and when missiles are launched from things such as school-yards and the such, it is a cynical abuse of the situation by the people firing missiles in order to get people like you riled up. The situation is more complicated than you give it credit.
On May 31 2010 21:55 WeSt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 21:51 [DUF]MethodMan wrote:On May 31 2010 21:41 WeSt wrote:On May 31 2010 15:11 evanthebouncy! wrote:
never liked isreal... that country would be nothing if America doesn't back it up. Same as Kuweit. Some countries really piss me off because Israel shouldn't even exist if it wasn't the UK and the USA. People living in Palestine for thousands of years and then some assholes decide to divide their country into bits, take your most important city, and make a new countries. What's funny about this is that most people see Israel as the good guys... Sigh. Yeah right.. Educate yourself on the region that is Israel/Palestine nowdays. It has never belonged to anyone (for long lol). Btw, I'm not siding with anyone here, in my opinion people should just stop caring about this shithole because it's certainly not worth the effort and attention it's getting since the jews got settled there. But as lefties and latent commies get outraged by this so much it's always fun to watch the hate stir up. On May 31 2010 21:48 Pika Chu wrote:On May 31 2010 21:36 [DUF]MethodMan wrote:On May 31 2010 20:58 Masamune wrote:On May 31 2010 20:29 BlackJack wrote:On May 31 2010 20:09 BG1 wrote:On May 31 2010 19:55 beetlejuice wrote:On May 31 2010 19:49 BG1 wrote:
If those "doctors, writers and politicians" remained civil there would be no reason for anyone to get shot... The Israelis didn't just whip out their guns and decide to shoot people for fun. did you just read last 10 comments and didnt watch news? how stupid can ppl be? why do you think all this rage about? If those "doctors, writers and politicians" remained civil there would be no reason for anyone to get shot... The Israelis didn't just whip out their guns and decide to shoot people for fun. I know the answer, EHM... THEY DID? you keep on living in your dream world. also that's international territory water. other than this humanity crime. Israel commited an international crime. You're telling me they just shot the people for fun... Knowing full well the law, the international consequences and the media backlash and you're telling me to stop living in a dream world??? haha Oh and yes I wasn't there but you guys obviously were... right, that would never happen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Miller_(filmmaker)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corriehttp://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/nov/24/israel"This is commander. Anything that's mobile, that moves in the zone, even if it's a three-year-old, needs to be killed. Over." wow wtf. Rachel Aliene Corrie (April 10, 1979 – March 16, 2003) was an American member of the International Solidarity Movement (ISM) who was killed by a bulldozer operated by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) while attempting to prevent IDF forces from demolishing the home of local Palestinian pharmacist Samir Nasrallah.Apparently she was smashed against the wall of the home and the bulldozer... fucking disgusting. BG1 are you Jewish? That would explain a lot, as it does with HnR)hT. You should've read the rest of the wikipedia article.
While in Gaza, she took part in a demonstration as part of the February 15, 2003 anti-war protest against the invasion of Iraq, where she was photographed burning a mock US flag.[5][9] Robert Spencer criticized Corrie for having burned the flag in front of children, writing that she was “fostering... hatred” of the United States.[10]Just shows what kind of people get heroised nowadays. Yes, let's ram a bulldozer into anyone who burns a flag of the right and just ones. Flag burning of US/Israel must be punished by ramming a bulldozer into someone! They are good states, unlike evil world that provokes them! Maybe you don't believe it, but radical martyrdom isn't exclusive to muslims. Really? So building a barricade to separate countries is the best choice? Quite ironic you are German (no offense) you should know that walls aren't really good.
Actually, the wall you are talking about lowered the amount of suicide bombings in Israel from once a month to none. It's not a permanent solution, but it has solved some of the bigger issues. And hey, if the Palestinians want to be recognized as a country, they shouldn't get outraged at someone trying to enforce a border.
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Whew, finally. Now back to life.
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Spenguin
Australia3316 Posts
+ Show Spoiler +On May 31 2010 22:29 Kazius wrote:As an Israeli that does NOT feel that this was handled as well as it could be, as a person who has been to Nablus, Ramallah, Jericho, Gaza, and other places in person, who actually knows Palestinians and Israelis, I felt obligated to give a localized perspective. I am a human rights activist, non-religious (agnostic), and I am most definitely pro-peace (moderate/pragmatic left-wing), but I have had friends killed in this conflict. Now that all my biases are clear, here are replies, additions, explanations and addendums to various comments which I found incomplete, wrong, or biased. I have went through the entire thread, and in my replies here are also replies to many other opinions voiced here. Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 15:10 Empyrean wrote:
I'm also pretty outraged that they had the audacity to attack such a flotilla. Granted, I can kind of see where they're coming from (if they don't make a stand, what's to say other ships won't bring in weapons or whatever?), but couldn't there have been a more err...non-violent way of addressing the issue? Anyone's thoughts? I know it's a pretty controversial issue, so please stay civilized. Israel had exhausted all non-violent means, including offering a way for aid to be transport into Gaza IF IT WAS SEARCHED FOR WEAPONS. The whole point of the floatilla was breaking the blockade in order for things OTHER than relief to enter. There are no problems getting food, water, fuel, medical supplies, etc. into Gaza. You could argue that this was an obvious relief effort - unfortunately, the Hammas has previously used relief via the sea as a platform for smuggling things such as anti-tank missiles, high explosives, and heavy machine guns. With this background, the whole point of the floatilla was THAT news report, and THESE reactions: + Show Spoiler +On May 31 2010 15:11 evanthebouncy! wrote:
never liked isreal... that country would be nothing if America doesn't back it up. On May 31 2010 15:17 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 15:13 illu wrote:
Are we going to compare Israel with North Korea?
Both with huge army? Yes
Both with nukes? Yes
Both like to sink ships? Yes
Both with great power behind their back? Yes But Israel is on the Good side and North Korea is part of the axis of evil. On May 31 2010 15:22 Two_DoWn wrote:
God dammit. US just needs to realize that Israel is a failed experiment, and that actually dealing with and supporting arab countries might be the answer. At least Israel is the Brits fault in the first place. Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 15:50 QibingZero wrote:
The sad thing is I'm pretty sure the Israeli Army actually has their people believing every aid convoy is really a secret plot to try to arm the Palestinian resistance. Ugh. -.- This is no secret plot. This is a direct attempt to break the blockade. There have been attempts at smuggling weapons via the sea earlier, but it would take a total retard to try and smuggle them on the mentioned floatilla. The whole point of it is to force Israel to not search for weapons on ships entering Gaza, and unfortunately, due to the history between Hammas and Israel, that is an unacceptable security risk; they are already firing missiles into Israel. The means to this end is that Israel can't afford not to search the floatilla, and therefor, it is a massive publicity stunt. They did it knowing that confrontation was inevitable, that because of some douchebag violence will ensue, and then the headlines will be "EVIL ISRAEL ATTACKS DEFENSELESS SUPPORT FOR POOR CHILDREN, think about the children!". And despite what you think, the Israeli army has very little in the way of PR. It's the politicians who do that work, just like in every other country. Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 16:00 zrules wrote:
The saddest part is: it will not crack mainstream U.S. news because U.S. stations don't feel an obligation to report "small problems like these." It's truly sad that the U.S. considers entertainment news on their favorite celebrities more important than news about people in the world who are living lives a worse condition than they themselves. It is sad to say, but the truth be told, people just don't seem to value these kinds of stories all too much. Most people only care about their lives and their problems. While it might be in relation to the culture that we are in. We strive to succeed for ourselves, when we want something as the U.S. we are going to do whatever it is to get it (Our gas is cheaper than almost every other country in the world...). In that same respect, unless we are spoon fed news, we don't really care about people in Europe having an economic meltdown, or the latest breaking of Geneva convention rules. Only when it might directly affect us by having our economy go down or have a potential war that we are supposed to prevent on our hands, do we finally get involved.
Now, my opinion: It's ridiculous for Israel to continually prevent the building of homes. The easiest way to make a radical is to deprive them of necessities, kill close individuals to that person, and give group more leverage in convincing individuals... It almost feels like Israel is trying to make a self-imposed Holocaust on residents of the Gaza strip, keeping them in a situation where traditional feelings of freedom that once echoed in America is continually alive, yet said wish for freedom results in the deaths of individuals which eventually becomes a self-imposed Holocaust of Palestinians trapped within a territory. Counting on international media is terrible, what is considered by many WW3 happened in Africa (millions of dead, many countries involved, with the death toll increasing by hundreds of thousands annually due to disease and starvation caused by that war) was largely unreported because it wasn't news. That aside, if every time a few people died and 30 were injured was reported, then EVERY SERIOUS BUS ACCIDENT WORLDWIDE WOULD BE ON CNN. You'd see nothing but that, 24/7. Comparing Gaza to the concentration camps is wrong on so many levels, as I have had grandparents that survived concentration camps, and have personally been in Gaza, and I can tell you that this comparison is invalid on so many levels that it more shows that you are willing to compare Nazis and Israelis using ignorance as an excuse than anything else. Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 16:10 EmeraldSparks wrote:On May 31 2010 16:06 Empyrean wrote:On May 31 2010 16:02 EmeraldSparks wrote:On May 31 2010 15:58 illu wrote:On May 31 2010 15:48 EmeraldSparks wrote:
I believe the Israeli response was disproportionate.
My guess as to Israeli policy was:
Non-resistance will be met by non-violence. Non-lethal resistance ill be met by non-lethality. Lethal resistance will be met by lethality.
I agree with that. That ship looks perfectly harmless and it's certainly not a battleship. However, all of the suicide bombers look 'harmless' too. They either go by themselves, or drive a car (which is not a conventional weapon). These ships are carrying members of parliaments across Europe, former American congressmen, Nobel Laureates and the like. It would be absurdly unlikely that they would be bearing firearms or explosives. This puts Israel in a really tough spot diplomatically. What IF weapons were found on some of those ships carrying those notable people? Lusitania style :/ This would, full stop, be the best possible thing that could happen for Israel diplomatically. Total public relations coup. Tremendous victory. Terrible terrible discrediting of anti-Israel factions. No it won't. Actually, my bet is that it would be reported in one line on CNN and MSNBC, and that's it. Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 16:25 Gnaix wrote:
When did the Jews get so fucking violent? Oh wait, that's because we gave them weapons and they started pwning all of the middle east... So now it's the Jews, not the Israelis? Well, nice to see people like you crawling out the woodwork. Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 16:29 Jibba wrote:Why do you think this is going to change the situation in Gaza? It's been in this state for years, and it's not just the Israelis to blame for creating this humanitarian crisis. Egypt is the one who built the wall. Saudis help finance it. The AKP will probably use it for political victory in Turkey once again, but they're not really concerned with Palestinians; they just have their own geo-political conflict going on with Israel. It's horrible what happened, but why would anything change? Assuming Israel wants to continue on a path of statism, it has the leverage and is really not dependent on the US anymore. EDIT: Gideon Levi's editorial in Haaretz. This was from before the attack. + Show Spoiler +Gaza flotilla drives Israel into a sea of stupidity
Of course the peace flotilla will not bring peace, and it won't even manage to reach the Gaza shore. The action plan has included dragging the ships to Ashdod port, but it has again dragged us to the shores of stupidity and wrongdoing
By Gideon Levy
The Israeli propaganda machine has reached new highs its hopeless frenzy. It has distributed menus from Gaza restaurants, along with false information. It embarrassed itself by entering a futile public relations battle, which it might have been better off never starting. They want to maintain the ineffective, illegal and unethical siege on Gaza and not let the "peace flotilla" dock off the Gaza coast? There is nothing to explain, certainly not to a world that will never buy the web of explanations, lies and tactics.
Only in Israel do people still accept these tainted goods. Reminiscent of a pre-battle ritual from ancient times, the chorus cheered without asking questions. White uniformed soldiers got ready in our name. Spokesmen delivered their deceptive explanations in our name. The grotesque scene is at our expense. And virtually none of us have disturbed the performance.
The chorus has been singing songs of falsehood and lies. We are all in the chorus saying there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza. We are all part of the chorus claiming the occupation of Gaza has ended, and that the flotilla is a violent attack on Israeli sovereignty - the cement is for building bunkers and the convoy is being funded by the Turkish Muslim Brotherhood. The Israeli siege of Gaza will topple Hamas and free Gilad Shalit. Foreign Ministry spokesman Yossi Levy, one of the most ridiculous of the propagandists, outdid himself when he unblinkingly proclaimed that the aid convoy headed toward Gaza was a violation of international law. Right. Exactly.
It's not the siege that is illegal, but rather the flotilla. It wasn't enough to distribute menus from Gaza restaurants through the Prime Minister's Office, (including the highly recommended beef Stroganoff and cream of spinach soup ) and flaunt the quantities of fuel that the Israeli army spokesman says Israel is shipping in. The propaganda operation has tried to sell us and the world the idea that the occupation of Gaza is over, but in any case, Israel has legal authority to bar humanitarian aid. All one pack of lies.
Only one voice spoiled the illusory celebration a little: an Amnesty International report on the situation in Gaza. Four out of five Gaza residents need humanitarian assistance. Hundreds are waiting to the point of embarrassment to be allowed out for medical treatment, and 28 already have died. This is despite all the Israeli army spokesman's briefings on the absence of a siege and the presence of assistance, but who cares?
And the preparations for the operation are also reminiscent of a particularly amusing farce: the feverish debate among the septet of ministers; the deployment of the Masada unit, the prison service's commando unit that specializes in penetrating prison cells; naval commando fighters with backup from the special police anti-terror unit and the army's Oketz canine unit; a special detention facility set up at the Ashdod port; and the electronic shield that was supposed to block broadcast of the ship's capture and the detention of those on board.
And all of this in the face of what? A few hundred international activists, mostly people of conscience whose reputation Israeli propaganda has sought to besmirch. They are really mostly people who care, which is their right and obligation, even if the siege doesn't concern us at all. Yes, this flotilla is indeed a political provocation, and what is protest action if not political provocation?
And facing them on the seas has been the Israeli ship of fools, floating but not knowing where or why. Why detain people? That's how it is. Why a siege? That's how it is. It's like the Noam Chomsky affair all over again, but big time this time. Of course the peace flotilla will not bring peace, and it won't even manage to reach the Gaza shore. The action plan has included dragging the ships to Ashdod port, but it has again dragged us to the shores of stupidity and wrongdoing. Again we will be portrayed not only as the ones that have blocked assistance, but also as fools who do everything to even further undermine our own standing. If that was one of the goals of the peace flotilla's organizers, they won big yesterday.
Five years ago, the noted Peruvian writer Mario Vargas Llosa, who is a Jerusalem Prize laureate, after concluding his visit to Israel, said the Israeli occupation was approaching its grotesque phase. Over the weekend Vargas Llosa, who considers himself a friend of Israel, was present to see that that phase has since reached new heights of absurdity. Gideon Levi (and most of the Ha'aretz editorial staff) are tend to get a lot of publicity by trolling the Israeli public. I'm a reader of that paper (they report news very well, and have some journalistic integrty). Only Amira Hess is more of a troll than this guy is. There is a reason why despite being the best in reporting international, political and economical news they are much smaller than the two big papers in Israel. And the proper response to trolls is to not repost or dignify their crap. Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 16:32 scion wrote:
People saying Israel has right to defend itself needs to get some information on the area. They get attacked precisely because of behaviors like this. They literally assume every Palestinians are potential threat. Israeli military drive Palestinians from their home, blockade them from Israel (literally walling them off) and segregate entire Palestinians living in Israel. Most Americans are oblivious to these things because American media avoid any negative news from Israel, and focuses on how Hamas and other Palestinian extremist groups attack Israel from all sides.
What Israelis are doing to the Palestinian population is fueling the extremist groups. Wouldn't you be angry if one day, army tank shows up and demolish your neighborhood and told you to leave the area because you are not authorized to live there?
This is almost positively another example of overreaction from Israel. I really hope the International community grows a pair to criticize and punish their action if it turns out to be the case. I used to be in the same opinion of yours, and then while (during my military service) we did a search in the road entering a small town, we found rifles hidden in an ambulance. Unfortunately, if Israel makes any exceptions for searches, those will be exploited, and therefor Israel is forced to resort to things like this. It's an ugly situation, and of course it makes Israel look bad. But that is the entire point, and I totally agree with you that Israel is fueling the extremist groups by it's actions. I find it brutal cynicism by the Hammas abusing this - they have no intention of allowing Israel to ease up on these actions because it would not serve them well. The average Palestinian, just as the average Israeli, wants peace. Everyone that has been involved in the conflict directly (and isn't nuts) just wants it to be over. But peace talks have failed before because they were rushed and went ahead too far too fast (that one is on Clinton) or were thwarted by politicians caring more about their power and staying in office than solving this messed up situation (Olmert, Hammas, Bush). Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 16:36 san-tokie wrote:On May 31 2010 16:08 ilbh wrote:On May 31 2010 15:19 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 31 2010 15:17 T.O.P. wrote:On May 31 2010 15:13 illu wrote:
Are we going to compare Israel with North Korea?
Both with huge army? Yes
Both with nukes? Yes
Both like to sink ships? Yes
Both with great power behind their back? Yes But Israel is on the Good side and North Korea is part of the axis of evil. lol I wonder why you lol'ed... Do some research on Mossad's activities and their agenda. They are believed by many to have orchestrated 9/11, as well as various other attacks on the US whilst posing as Palestinians. Basically Israel used the US to cripple Afghanistan and Iraq. Iran is inevitably next. "Good guys" don't exist anymore in today's world. Ah yes, the "JEWS DID 9/11" argument. Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 16:43 Mystlord wrote:
Time to pull aid from Israel!
Please? This is just ridiculous. Actually, the reason the aid is in place is to force Israel to not make arms deals with China, Russia and other international powers (massive deals were canceled because of requests by the US), force Israel to shut down certain military projects ( a good example is the IAI Lavi), to subsidize US arms manufacturers and business (Israel is forced to not spend it on local military products but only on US ones) and in order to get a strong political/military foothold in the middle-east. Unfortunately, the US uses Israel in the same way Iran use Lebanon - it is an indirect conflict of two great powers funding clashes on a global scale. The anti-Israeli sentiment in Iran is an extension of the anti-US sentiment (if you want corroboration, look at information about the Islamic revolution there). The implications of pulling that aid are huge. Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 16:50 Emon_ wrote:It's all about occupation. Israel wants to cripple Palestine and keep them isolated from the outside world. I'm sure this is the Jewish faith at it's finest. Seriously, why the fuck would you not allow another country to get 14 ton worth of supplies, which in itself is a piss in the sea compared to what they actually need in humanitarian aid. Ten are confirmed dead. Killed on international water. + Show Spoiler [offensive language] +Seriously, go fuck yourself Israel. And anyone who supports this bullshit. Israel doesn't want to cripple anyone. Israel is sick and tired of it's people getting killed. You have no idea how much the situation here is complicated. You choose one side without knowing the facts, and that's very easy from far away. Because once you zoom out enough, it's as simple as "big country vs. small country". + Show Spoiler [offensive retort] +And for saying this has anything to do with the Jewish religion: FUCK YOU, you have some serious soul searching to do if you even have one of those to search Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 17:16 Sabu113 wrote:
The difference between the West and Israel is that Israel plays to win. Also all the rational groups that want peace are being outbred by the religious extremists. So yeah peace, humanity and a good outcome are not likely to be found soon barring some dramatic event. Unfortunately, you are at least partially correct. Most people want peace, but it just feels so far out of reach nowadays. Each generation is not more extreme than the last, just more pessimistic. Most people just accept that the situation is shit, and will be for a long, LONG time. Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 18:04 mdb wrote:
Its so terrible. This conflict will never end as long as the country of Israel is in this location. I think the people who decided to build Israel on this place surrounded by Muslims and on muslim land are either the most stupid or the biggest trolls ever. Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 21:41 WeSt wrote:On May 31 2010 15:11 evanthebouncy! wrote:
never liked isreal... that country would be nothing if America doesn't back it up. Same as Kuweit. Some countries really piss me off because Israel shouldn't even exist if it wasn't the UK and the USA. People living in Palestine for thousands of years and then some assholes decide to divide their country into bits, take your most important city, and make a new countries. What's funny about this is that most people see Israel as the good guys... Sigh. Notice that Israel is the only country in the world which is delegitimized in such a way. There is no other country that people talk about and say "it should never have been founded". Israel is a fact, and it's here. It was created as a response to about 1500 years of segregation and hate (in everything from the church to Shakespeare's The Merchant of Venice - which is not any more racist than any other view of the Jews at the time), culminating in a medium case of attempted genocide. This is the only place the Jewish people had agreed on for such a state and had been settling it for the better part of a fifty years at the time (prior to which there was practically no people living there, neither Jewish nor otherwise). The conflict will end. It has to. You have no idea how much people are sick of all the death and destruction. Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 20:10 Masamune wrote:
The scary part about all this is that if Israel commits such acts like these out in the open, who knows what the hell happens behind closed doors; I've read about horror stories in Gaza commited by Israel. This time, they were unfortunate enough to have attacked western aid workers, which is probably why the spotlight is shining even brighter on the whole situation.
Someone earlier had sympathized with Israel because of it being surrounded by Arab states--and both sides here are at blame--but if I had the choice, I'd rather be surrounded by the Arabs than the Israelis, assuming we didn't get along. There is no military presence inside Gaza - rather than in accordance with the Geneva convention, Israel reserves the right to return fire towards the source of the attack, and when missiles are launched from things such as school-yards and the such, it is a cynical abuse of the situation by the people firing missiles in order to get people like you riled up. The situation is more complicated than you give it credit. Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 21:55 WeSt wrote:On May 31 2010 21:51 [DUF]MethodMan wrote:On May 31 2010 21:41 WeSt wrote:On May 31 2010 15:11 evanthebouncy! wrote:
never liked isreal... that country would be nothing if America doesn't back it up. Same as Kuweit. Some countries really piss me off because Israel shouldn't even exist if it wasn't the UK and the USA. People living in Palestine for thousands of years and then some assholes decide to divide their country into bits, take your most important city, and make a new countries. What's funny about this is that most people see Israel as the good guys... Sigh. Yeah right.. Educate yourself on the region that is Israel/Palestine nowdays. It has never belonged to anyone (for long lol). Btw, I'm not siding with anyone here, in my opinion people should just stop caring about this shithole because it's certainly not worth the effort and attention it's getting since the jews got settled there. But as lefties and latent commies get outraged by this so much it's always fun to watch the hate stir up. On May 31 2010 21:48 Pika Chu wrote:On May 31 2010 21:36 [DUF]MethodMan wrote:On May 31 2010 20:58 Masamune wrote:On May 31 2010 20:29 BlackJack wrote:On May 31 2010 20:09 BG1 wrote:On May 31 2010 19:55 beetlejuice wrote:On May 31 2010 19:49 BG1 wrote:
If those "doctors, writers and politicians" remained civil there would be no reason for anyone to get shot... The Israelis didn't just whip out their guns and decide to shoot people for fun. did you just read last 10 comments and didnt watch news? how stupid can ppl be? why do you think all this rage about? If those "doctors, writers and politicians" remained civil there would be no reason for anyone to get shot... The Israelis didn't just whip out their guns and decide to shoot people for fun. I know the answer, EHM... THEY DID? you keep on living in your dream world. also that's international territory water. other than this humanity crime. Israel commited an international crime. You're telling me they just shot the people for fun... Knowing full well the law, the international consequences and the media backlash and you're telling me to stop living in a dream world??? haha Oh and yes I wasn't there but you guys obviously were... right, that would never happen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Miller_(filmmaker)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corriehttp://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/nov/24/israel"This is commander. Anything that's mobile, that moves in the zone, even if it's a three-year-old, needs to be killed. Over." wow wtf. Rachel Aliene Corrie (April 10, 1979 – March 16, 2003) was an American member of the International Solidarity Movement (ISM) who was killed by a bulldozer operated by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) while attempting to prevent IDF forces from demolishing the home of local Palestinian pharmacist Samir Nasrallah.Apparently she was smashed against the wall of the home and the bulldozer... fucking disgusting. BG1 are you Jewish? That would explain a lot, as it does with HnR)hT. You should've read the rest of the wikipedia article.
While in Gaza, she took part in a demonstration as part of the February 15, 2003 anti-war protest against the invasion of Iraq, where she was photographed burning a mock US flag.[5][9] Robert Spencer criticized Corrie for having burned the flag in front of children, writing that she was “fostering... hatred” of the United States.[10]Just shows what kind of people get heroised nowadays. Yes, let's ram a bulldozer into anyone who burns a flag of the right and just ones. Flag burning of US/Israel must be punished by ramming a bulldozer into someone! They are good states, unlike evil world that provokes them! Maybe you don't believe it, but radical martyrdom isn't exclusive to muslims. Really? So building a barricade to separate countries is the best choice? Quite ironic you are German (no offense) you should know that walls aren't really good. Actually, the wall you are talking about lowered the amount of suicide bombings in Israel from once a month to none. It's not a permanent solution, but it has solved some of the bigger issues. And hey, if the Palestinians want to be recognized as a country, they shouldn't get outraged at someone trying to enforce a border. ------------------ Whew, finally. Now back to life.
Hi I like you, keep it up
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On May 31 2010 22:37 Spenguin wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 31 2010 22:29 Kazius wrote:As an Israeli that does NOT feel that this was handled as well as it could be, as a person who has been to Nablus, Ramallah, Jericho, Gaza, and other places in person, who actually knows Palestinians and Israelis, I felt obligated to give a localized perspective. I am a human rights activist, non-religious (agnostic), and I am most definitely pro-peace (moderate/pragmatic left-wing), but I have had friends killed in this conflict. Now that all my biases are clear, here are replies, additions, explanations and addendums to various comments which I found incomplete, wrong, or biased. I have went through the entire thread, and in my replies here are also replies to many other opinions voiced here. Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 15:10 Empyrean wrote:
I'm also pretty outraged that they had the audacity to attack such a flotilla. Granted, I can kind of see where they're coming from (if they don't make a stand, what's to say other ships won't bring in weapons or whatever?), but couldn't there have been a more err...non-violent way of addressing the issue? Anyone's thoughts? I know it's a pretty controversial issue, so please stay civilized. Israel had exhausted all non-violent means, including offering a way for aid to be transport into Gaza IF IT WAS SEARCHED FOR WEAPONS. The whole point of the floatilla was breaking the blockade in order for things OTHER than relief to enter. There are no problems getting food, water, fuel, medical supplies, etc. into Gaza. You could argue that this was an obvious relief effort - unfortunately, the Hammas has previously used relief via the sea as a platform for smuggling things such as anti-tank missiles, high explosives, and heavy machine guns. With this background, the whole point of the floatilla was THAT news report, and THESE reactions: + Show Spoiler +On May 31 2010 15:11 evanthebouncy! wrote:
never liked isreal... that country would be nothing if America doesn't back it up. On May 31 2010 15:17 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 15:13 illu wrote:
Are we going to compare Israel with North Korea?
Both with huge army? Yes
Both with nukes? Yes
Both like to sink ships? Yes
Both with great power behind their back? Yes But Israel is on the Good side and North Korea is part of the axis of evil. On May 31 2010 15:22 Two_DoWn wrote:
God dammit. US just needs to realize that Israel is a failed experiment, and that actually dealing with and supporting arab countries might be the answer. At least Israel is the Brits fault in the first place. Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 15:50 QibingZero wrote:
The sad thing is I'm pretty sure the Israeli Army actually has their people believing every aid convoy is really a secret plot to try to arm the Palestinian resistance. Ugh. -.- This is no secret plot. This is a direct attempt to break the blockade. There have been attempts at smuggling weapons via the sea earlier, but it would take a total retard to try and smuggle them on the mentioned floatilla. The whole point of it is to force Israel to not search for weapons on ships entering Gaza, and unfortunately, due to the history between Hammas and Israel, that is an unacceptable security risk; they are already firing missiles into Israel. The means to this end is that Israel can't afford not to search the floatilla, and therefor, it is a massive publicity stunt. They did it knowing that confrontation was inevitable, that because of some douchebag violence will ensue, and then the headlines will be "EVIL ISRAEL ATTACKS DEFENSELESS SUPPORT FOR POOR CHILDREN, think about the children!". And despite what you think, the Israeli army has very little in the way of PR. It's the politicians who do that work, just like in every other country. Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 16:00 zrules wrote:
The saddest part is: it will not crack mainstream U.S. news because U.S. stations don't feel an obligation to report "small problems like these." It's truly sad that the U.S. considers entertainment news on their favorite celebrities more important than news about people in the world who are living lives a worse condition than they themselves. It is sad to say, but the truth be told, people just don't seem to value these kinds of stories all too much. Most people only care about their lives and their problems. While it might be in relation to the culture that we are in. We strive to succeed for ourselves, when we want something as the U.S. we are going to do whatever it is to get it (Our gas is cheaper than almost every other country in the world...). In that same respect, unless we are spoon fed news, we don't really care about people in Europe having an economic meltdown, or the latest breaking of Geneva convention rules. Only when it might directly affect us by having our economy go down or have a potential war that we are supposed to prevent on our hands, do we finally get involved.
Now, my opinion: It's ridiculous for Israel to continually prevent the building of homes. The easiest way to make a radical is to deprive them of necessities, kill close individuals to that person, and give group more leverage in convincing individuals... It almost feels like Israel is trying to make a self-imposed Holocaust on residents of the Gaza strip, keeping them in a situation where traditional feelings of freedom that once echoed in America is continually alive, yet said wish for freedom results in the deaths of individuals which eventually becomes a self-imposed Holocaust of Palestinians trapped within a territory. Counting on international media is terrible, what is considered by many WW3 happened in Africa (millions of dead, many countries involved, with the death toll increasing by hundreds of thousands annually due to disease and starvation caused by that war) was largely unreported because it wasn't news. That aside, if every time a few people died and 30 were injured was reported, then EVERY SERIOUS BUS ACCIDENT WORLDWIDE WOULD BE ON CNN. You'd see nothing but that, 24/7. Comparing Gaza to the concentration camps is wrong on so many levels, as I have had grandparents that survived concentration camps, and have personally been in Gaza, and I can tell you that this comparison is invalid on so many levels that it more shows that you are willing to compare Nazis and Israelis using ignorance as an excuse than anything else. Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 16:10 EmeraldSparks wrote:On May 31 2010 16:06 Empyrean wrote:On May 31 2010 16:02 EmeraldSparks wrote:On May 31 2010 15:58 illu wrote:On May 31 2010 15:48 EmeraldSparks wrote:
I believe the Israeli response was disproportionate.
My guess as to Israeli policy was:
Non-resistance will be met by non-violence. Non-lethal resistance ill be met by non-lethality. Lethal resistance will be met by lethality.
I agree with that. That ship looks perfectly harmless and it's certainly not a battleship. However, all of the suicide bombers look 'harmless' too. They either go by themselves, or drive a car (which is not a conventional weapon). These ships are carrying members of parliaments across Europe, former American congressmen, Nobel Laureates and the like. It would be absurdly unlikely that they would be bearing firearms or explosives. This puts Israel in a really tough spot diplomatically. What IF weapons were found on some of those ships carrying those notable people? Lusitania style :/ This would, full stop, be the best possible thing that could happen for Israel diplomatically. Total public relations coup. Tremendous victory. Terrible terrible discrediting of anti-Israel factions. No it won't. Actually, my bet is that it would be reported in one line on CNN and MSNBC, and that's it. Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 16:25 Gnaix wrote:
When did the Jews get so fucking violent? Oh wait, that's because we gave them weapons and they started pwning all of the middle east... So now it's the Jews, not the Israelis? Well, nice to see people like you crawling out the woodwork. Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 16:29 Jibba wrote:Why do you think this is going to change the situation in Gaza? It's been in this state for years, and it's not just the Israelis to blame for creating this humanitarian crisis. Egypt is the one who built the wall. Saudis help finance it. The AKP will probably use it for political victory in Turkey once again, but they're not really concerned with Palestinians; they just have their own geo-political conflict going on with Israel. It's horrible what happened, but why would anything change? Assuming Israel wants to continue on a path of statism, it has the leverage and is really not dependent on the US anymore. EDIT: Gideon Levi's editorial in Haaretz. This was from before the attack. + Show Spoiler +Gaza flotilla drives Israel into a sea of stupidity
Of course the peace flotilla will not bring peace, and it won't even manage to reach the Gaza shore. The action plan has included dragging the ships to Ashdod port, but it has again dragged us to the shores of stupidity and wrongdoing
By Gideon Levy
The Israeli propaganda machine has reached new highs its hopeless frenzy. It has distributed menus from Gaza restaurants, along with false information. It embarrassed itself by entering a futile public relations battle, which it might have been better off never starting. They want to maintain the ineffective, illegal and unethical siege on Gaza and not let the "peace flotilla" dock off the Gaza coast? There is nothing to explain, certainly not to a world that will never buy the web of explanations, lies and tactics.
Only in Israel do people still accept these tainted goods. Reminiscent of a pre-battle ritual from ancient times, the chorus cheered without asking questions. White uniformed soldiers got ready in our name. Spokesmen delivered their deceptive explanations in our name. The grotesque scene is at our expense. And virtually none of us have disturbed the performance.
The chorus has been singing songs of falsehood and lies. We are all in the chorus saying there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza. We are all part of the chorus claiming the occupation of Gaza has ended, and that the flotilla is a violent attack on Israeli sovereignty - the cement is for building bunkers and the convoy is being funded by the Turkish Muslim Brotherhood. The Israeli siege of Gaza will topple Hamas and free Gilad Shalit. Foreign Ministry spokesman Yossi Levy, one of the most ridiculous of the propagandists, outdid himself when he unblinkingly proclaimed that the aid convoy headed toward Gaza was a violation of international law. Right. Exactly.
It's not the siege that is illegal, but rather the flotilla. It wasn't enough to distribute menus from Gaza restaurants through the Prime Minister's Office, (including the highly recommended beef Stroganoff and cream of spinach soup ) and flaunt the quantities of fuel that the Israeli army spokesman says Israel is shipping in. The propaganda operation has tried to sell us and the world the idea that the occupation of Gaza is over, but in any case, Israel has legal authority to bar humanitarian aid. All one pack of lies.
Only one voice spoiled the illusory celebration a little: an Amnesty International report on the situation in Gaza. Four out of five Gaza residents need humanitarian assistance. Hundreds are waiting to the point of embarrassment to be allowed out for medical treatment, and 28 already have died. This is despite all the Israeli army spokesman's briefings on the absence of a siege and the presence of assistance, but who cares?
And the preparations for the operation are also reminiscent of a particularly amusing farce: the feverish debate among the septet of ministers; the deployment of the Masada unit, the prison service's commando unit that specializes in penetrating prison cells; naval commando fighters with backup from the special police anti-terror unit and the army's Oketz canine unit; a special detention facility set up at the Ashdod port; and the electronic shield that was supposed to block broadcast of the ship's capture and the detention of those on board.
And all of this in the face of what? A few hundred international activists, mostly people of conscience whose reputation Israeli propaganda has sought to besmirch. They are really mostly people who care, which is their right and obligation, even if the siege doesn't concern us at all. Yes, this flotilla is indeed a political provocation, and what is protest action if not political provocation?
And facing them on the seas has been the Israeli ship of fools, floating but not knowing where or why. Why detain people? That's how it is. Why a siege? That's how it is. It's like the Noam Chomsky affair all over again, but big time this time. Of course the peace flotilla will not bring peace, and it won't even manage to reach the Gaza shore. The action plan has included dragging the ships to Ashdod port, but it has again dragged us to the shores of stupidity and wrongdoing. Again we will be portrayed not only as the ones that have blocked assistance, but also as fools who do everything to even further undermine our own standing. If that was one of the goals of the peace flotilla's organizers, they won big yesterday.
Five years ago, the noted Peruvian writer Mario Vargas Llosa, who is a Jerusalem Prize laureate, after concluding his visit to Israel, said the Israeli occupation was approaching its grotesque phase. Over the weekend Vargas Llosa, who considers himself a friend of Israel, was present to see that that phase has since reached new heights of absurdity. Gideon Levi (and most of the Ha'aretz editorial staff) are tend to get a lot of publicity by trolling the Israeli public. I'm a reader of that paper (they report news very well, and have some journalistic integrty). Only Amira Hess is more of a troll than this guy is. There is a reason why despite being the best in reporting international, political and economical news they are much smaller than the two big papers in Israel. And the proper response to trolls is to not repost or dignify their crap. Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 16:32 scion wrote:
People saying Israel has right to defend itself needs to get some information on the area. They get attacked precisely because of behaviors like this. They literally assume every Palestinians are potential threat. Israeli military drive Palestinians from their home, blockade them from Israel (literally walling them off) and segregate entire Palestinians living in Israel. Most Americans are oblivious to these things because American media avoid any negative news from Israel, and focuses on how Hamas and other Palestinian extremist groups attack Israel from all sides.
What Israelis are doing to the Palestinian population is fueling the extremist groups. Wouldn't you be angry if one day, army tank shows up and demolish your neighborhood and told you to leave the area because you are not authorized to live there?
This is almost positively another example of overreaction from Israel. I really hope the International community grows a pair to criticize and punish their action if it turns out to be the case. I used to be in the same opinion of yours, and then while (during my military service) we did a search in the road entering a small town, we found rifles hidden in an ambulance. Unfortunately, if Israel makes any exceptions for searches, those will be exploited, and therefor Israel is forced to resort to things like this. It's an ugly situation, and of course it makes Israel look bad. But that is the entire point, and I totally agree with you that Israel is fueling the extremist groups by it's actions. I find it brutal cynicism by the Hammas abusing this - they have no intention of allowing Israel to ease up on these actions because it would not serve them well. The average Palestinian, just as the average Israeli, wants peace. Everyone that has been involved in the conflict directly (and isn't nuts) just wants it to be over. But peace talks have failed before because they were rushed and went ahead too far too fast (that one is on Clinton) or were thwarted by politicians caring more about their power and staying in office than solving this messed up situation (Olmert, Hammas, Bush). Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 16:36 san-tokie wrote:On May 31 2010 16:08 ilbh wrote:On May 31 2010 15:19 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 31 2010 15:17 T.O.P. wrote:On May 31 2010 15:13 illu wrote:
Are we going to compare Israel with North Korea?
Both with huge army? Yes
Both with nukes? Yes
Both like to sink ships? Yes
Both with great power behind their back? Yes But Israel is on the Good side and North Korea is part of the axis of evil. lol I wonder why you lol'ed... Do some research on Mossad's activities and their agenda. They are believed by many to have orchestrated 9/11, as well as various other attacks on the US whilst posing as Palestinians. Basically Israel used the US to cripple Afghanistan and Iraq. Iran is inevitably next. "Good guys" don't exist anymore in today's world. Ah yes, the "JEWS DID 9/11" argument. Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 16:43 Mystlord wrote:
Time to pull aid from Israel!
Please? This is just ridiculous. Actually, the reason the aid is in place is to force Israel to not make arms deals with China, Russia and other international powers (massive deals were canceled because of requests by the US), force Israel to shut down certain military projects ( a good example is the IAI Lavi), to subsidize US arms manufacturers and business (Israel is forced to not spend it on local military products but only on US ones) and in order to get a strong political/military foothold in the middle-east. Unfortunately, the US uses Israel in the same way Iran use Lebanon - it is an indirect conflict of two great powers funding clashes on a global scale. The anti-Israeli sentiment in Iran is an extension of the anti-US sentiment (if you want corroboration, look at information about the Islamic revolution there). The implications of pulling that aid are huge. Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 16:50 Emon_ wrote:It's all about occupation. Israel wants to cripple Palestine and keep them isolated from the outside world. I'm sure this is the Jewish faith at it's finest. Seriously, why the fuck would you not allow another country to get 14 ton worth of supplies, which in itself is a piss in the sea compared to what they actually need in humanitarian aid. Ten are confirmed dead. Killed on international water. + Show Spoiler [offensive language] +Seriously, go fuck yourself Israel. And anyone who supports this bullshit. Israel doesn't want to cripple anyone. Israel is sick and tired of it's people getting killed. You have no idea how much the situation here is complicated. You choose one side without knowing the facts, and that's very easy from far away. Because once you zoom out enough, it's as simple as "big country vs. small country". + Show Spoiler [offensive retort] +And for saying this has anything to do with the Jewish religion: FUCK YOU, you have some serious soul searching to do if you even have one of those to search Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 17:16 Sabu113 wrote:
The difference between the West and Israel is that Israel plays to win. Also all the rational groups that want peace are being outbred by the religious extremists. So yeah peace, humanity and a good outcome are not likely to be found soon barring some dramatic event. Unfortunately, you are at least partially correct. Most people want peace, but it just feels so far out of reach nowadays. Each generation is not more extreme than the last, just more pessimistic. Most people just accept that the situation is shit, and will be for a long, LONG time. Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 18:04 mdb wrote:
Its so terrible. This conflict will never end as long as the country of Israel is in this location. I think the people who decided to build Israel on this place surrounded by Muslims and on muslim land are either the most stupid or the biggest trolls ever. Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 21:41 WeSt wrote:On May 31 2010 15:11 evanthebouncy! wrote:
never liked isreal... that country would be nothing if America doesn't back it up. Same as Kuweit. Some countries really piss me off because Israel shouldn't even exist if it wasn't the UK and the USA. People living in Palestine for thousands of years and then some assholes decide to divide their country into bits, take your most important city, and make a new countries. What's funny about this is that most people see Israel as the good guys... Sigh. Notice that Israel is the only country in the world which is delegitimized in such a way. There is no other country that people talk about and say "it should never have been founded". Israel is a fact, and it's here. It was created as a response to about 1500 years of segregation and hate (in everything from the church to Shakespeare's The Merchant of Venice - which is not any more racist than any other view of the Jews at the time), culminating in a medium case of attempted genocide. This is the only place the Jewish people had agreed on for such a state and had been settling it for the better part of a fifty years at the time (prior to which there was practically no people living there, neither Jewish nor otherwise). The conflict will end. It has to. You have no idea how much people are sick of all the death and destruction. Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 20:10 Masamune wrote:
The scary part about all this is that if Israel commits such acts like these out in the open, who knows what the hell happens behind closed doors; I've read about horror stories in Gaza commited by Israel. This time, they were unfortunate enough to have attacked western aid workers, which is probably why the spotlight is shining even brighter on the whole situation.
Someone earlier had sympathized with Israel because of it being surrounded by Arab states--and both sides here are at blame--but if I had the choice, I'd rather be surrounded by the Arabs than the Israelis, assuming we didn't get along. There is no military presence inside Gaza - rather than in accordance with the Geneva convention, Israel reserves the right to return fire towards the source of the attack, and when missiles are launched from things such as school-yards and the such, it is a cynical abuse of the situation by the people firing missiles in order to get people like you riled up. The situation is more complicated than you give it credit. Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 21:55 WeSt wrote:On May 31 2010 21:51 [DUF]MethodMan wrote:On May 31 2010 21:41 WeSt wrote:On May 31 2010 15:11 evanthebouncy! wrote:
never liked isreal... that country would be nothing if America doesn't back it up. Same as Kuweit. Some countries really piss me off because Israel shouldn't even exist if it wasn't the UK and the USA. People living in Palestine for thousands of years and then some assholes decide to divide their country into bits, take your most important city, and make a new countries. What's funny about this is that most people see Israel as the good guys... Sigh. Yeah right.. Educate yourself on the region that is Israel/Palestine nowdays. It has never belonged to anyone (for long lol). Btw, I'm not siding with anyone here, in my opinion people should just stop caring about this shithole because it's certainly not worth the effort and attention it's getting since the jews got settled there. But as lefties and latent commies get outraged by this so much it's always fun to watch the hate stir up. On May 31 2010 21:48 Pika Chu wrote:On May 31 2010 21:36 [DUF]MethodMan wrote:On May 31 2010 20:58 Masamune wrote:On May 31 2010 20:29 BlackJack wrote:On May 31 2010 20:09 BG1 wrote:On May 31 2010 19:55 beetlejuice wrote:On May 31 2010 19:49 BG1 wrote:
If those "doctors, writers and politicians" remained civil there would be no reason for anyone to get shot... The Israelis didn't just whip out their guns and decide to shoot people for fun. did you just read last 10 comments and didnt watch news? how stupid can ppl be? why do you think all this rage about? If those "doctors, writers and politicians" remained civil there would be no reason for anyone to get shot... The Israelis didn't just whip out their guns and decide to shoot people for fun. I know the answer, EHM... THEY DID? you keep on living in your dream world. also that's international territory water. other than this humanity crime. Israel commited an international crime. You're telling me they just shot the people for fun... Knowing full well the law, the international consequences and the media backlash and you're telling me to stop living in a dream world??? haha Oh and yes I wasn't there but you guys obviously were... right, that would never happen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Miller_(filmmaker)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corriehttp://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/nov/24/israel"This is commander. Anything that's mobile, that moves in the zone, even if it's a three-year-old, needs to be killed. Over." wow wtf. Rachel Aliene Corrie (April 10, 1979 – March 16, 2003) was an American member of the International Solidarity Movement (ISM) who was killed by a bulldozer operated by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) while attempting to prevent IDF forces from demolishing the home of local Palestinian pharmacist Samir Nasrallah.Apparently she was smashed against the wall of the home and the bulldozer... fucking disgusting. BG1 are you Jewish? That would explain a lot, as it does with HnR)hT. You should've read the rest of the wikipedia article.
While in Gaza, she took part in a demonstration as part of the February 15, 2003 anti-war protest against the invasion of Iraq, where she was photographed burning a mock US flag.[5][9] Robert Spencer criticized Corrie for having burned the flag in front of children, writing that she was “fostering... hatred” of the United States.[10]Just shows what kind of people get heroised nowadays. Yes, let's ram a bulldozer into anyone who burns a flag of the right and just ones. Flag burning of US/Israel must be punished by ramming a bulldozer into someone! They are good states, unlike evil world that provokes them! Maybe you don't believe it, but radical martyrdom isn't exclusive to muslims. Really? So building a barricade to separate countries is the best choice? Quite ironic you are German (no offense) you should know that walls aren't really good. Actually, the wall you are talking about lowered the amount of suicide bombings in Israel from once a month to none. It's not a permanent solution, but it has solved some of the bigger issues. And hey, if the Palestinians want to be recognized as a country, they shouldn't get outraged at someone trying to enforce a border. ------------------ Whew, finally. Now back to life. Hi I like you, keep it up
Yea, just had to come back to tell I agree with your very nice post.
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Kazius, then they should have searched for weapons, not go rambo and kill 20 unarmed civlians. You know what is happening right now ? Turkey withdrew its ambassador from Israel, called the Israeli ambassador, did not allow a israelian civilian ship to enter its territorial waters, and has called for a un security council this evening.
Now, you seem to know much about Israel. Should Turkey provide military escorts to ships, would Israel still attack them in international waters maybe, and get on a full scale war with Turkey ?
Edit : I am comparing turkish and israeli military sizes. Israel has better training, and that's it. Turkey has a larger and similar armed air force, israel has no proper navy whatsoever vs turkey's 50k ships, and turkey is second only to the US within nato as for number of ground troops.
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On May 31 2010 22:07 [DUF]MethodMan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 22:03 Masamune wrote:On May 31 2010 21:36 [DUF]MethodMan wrote:On May 31 2010 20:58 Masamune wrote:On May 31 2010 20:29 BlackJack wrote:On May 31 2010 20:09 BG1 wrote:On May 31 2010 19:55 beetlejuice wrote:On May 31 2010 19:49 BG1 wrote:
If those "doctors, writers and politicians" remained civil there would be no reason for anyone to get shot... The Israelis didn't just whip out their guns and decide to shoot people for fun. did you just read last 10 comments and didnt watch news? how stupid can ppl be? why do you think all this rage about? If those "doctors, writers and politicians" remained civil there would be no reason for anyone to get shot... The Israelis didn't just whip out their guns and decide to shoot people for fun. I know the answer, EHM... THEY DID? you keep on living in your dream world. also that's international territory water. other than this humanity crime. Israel commited an international crime. You're telling me they just shot the people for fun... Knowing full well the law, the international consequences and the media backlash and you're telling me to stop living in a dream world??? haha Oh and yes I wasn't there but you guys obviously were... right, that would never happen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Miller_(filmmaker)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corriehttp://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/nov/24/israel"This is commander. Anything that's mobile, that moves in the zone, even if it's a three-year-old, needs to be killed. Over." wow wtf. Rachel Aliene Corrie (April 10, 1979 – March 16, 2003) was an American member of the International Solidarity Movement (ISM) who was killed by a bulldozer operated by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) while attempting to prevent IDF forces from demolishing the home of local Palestinian pharmacist Samir Nasrallah.Apparently she was smashed against the wall of the home and the bulldozer... fucking disgusting. BG1 are you Jewish? That would explain a lot, as it does with HnR)hT. You should've read the rest of the wikipedia article.
While in Gaza, she took part in a demonstration as part of the February 15, 2003 anti-war protest against the invasion of Iraq, where she was photographed burning a mock US flag.[5][9] Robert Spencer criticized Corrie for having burned the flag in front of children, writing that she was “fostering... hatred” of the United States.[10]Just shows what kind of people get heroised nowadays. Oh I did read the article, I just wanted to support BlackJack's point and reiterate the main crux of the post. I would have quoted the whole article if I could, but no one would read it otherwise. You conveniently forgot to post the rest of the little part you nitpicked, so I'll do it for you: "Trying to use this picture to somehow indicate that Rachel deserved to be run over by a bulldozer is an appalling act of demonization that infers that forms of protest which include flag burning are capital offences. In the words of Rachel's parents: 'The act, while we may disagree with it, must be put into context. Rachel was partaking in a demonstration in Gaza opposing the War on Iraq. She was working with children who drew two pictures, one of the American flag, and one of the Israeli flag, for burning. Rachel said that she could not bring herself to burn the picture of the Israeli flag with the Star of David on it, but under such circumstances, in protest over a drive towards war and her government's foreign policy that was responsible for much of the devastation that she was witness to in Gaza, she felt it OK to burn the picture of her own flag. We have seen photographs of memorials held in Gaza after Rachel's death in which Palestinian children and adults honor our daughter by carrying a mock coffin draped with the American flag. We have been told that our flag has never been treated so respectfully in Gaza in recent years. We believe Rachel brought a different face of the United States to the Palestinian people, a face of compassion. It is this image of Rachel with the American flag that we hope will be remembered most.'"[11]Now kindly gtfo. btw, I advise people to read the whole wikipedia entry on this lady; it's quite astounding. I'm sorry I didn't adress it directly to you, but I will correct this mistake: Martyrdom isn't exclusive to muslims.
Apparently radical views aren't either.
good riddance
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Spenguin
Australia3316 Posts
On May 31 2010 22:45 Ganondorf wrote:
Kazius, then they should have searched for weapons, not go rambo and kill 20 unarmed civlians. You know what is happening right now ? Turkey withdrew its ambassador from Israel, called the Israeli ambassador, did not allow a israelian civilian ship to enter its territorial waters, and has called for a un security council this evening.
Now, you seem to know much about Israel. Should Turkey provide military escorts to ships, would Israel still attack them in international waters maybe, and get on a full scale war with Turkey ?
I don't think "going rambo" is a good way to describe what happened without official reports. Either Israel took a hard stance and weren't going to search for weapons and just force them back or they were going to process the aid on land where it would be easier. Something must have happened in such a tense situation for these events to have occurred with the amount of training the elite forces of Israel have they wouldn't just go rambo.
Should Turkey provide military escorts to ships, would Israel still attack them in international waters maybe, and get on a full scale war with Turkey ?
Just going back over what you said, if Turkey were to provide a military escort wouldn't that be a declaration of war or a sign of intense aggression?
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On May 31 2010 22:45 Ganondorf wrote:
Kazius, then they should have searched for weapons, not go rambo and kill 20 unarmed civlians. You know what is happening right now ? Turkey withdrew its ambassador from Israel, called the Israeli ambassador, did not allow a israelian civilian ship to enter its territorial waters, and has called for a un security council this evening.
Now, you seem to know much about Israel. Should Turkey provide military escorts to ships, would Israel still attack them in international waters maybe, and get on a full scale war with Turkey ?
That question is hypothetical. The regime in Turkey has taken a much stronger pro-Palestinian stance in order to replace Egypt as the political leader of the moderate Arab countries. Despite this - Turkey would not have given military backing for such an endeavor for the simple reason that they do not want to instigate a conflict. This is political maneuvering and PR spinning at it's best, because despite all of this, Turkey is a country with strong economic ties to Israel, and this will not change. It is the same thing as the French reaction to the US actions in Iraq - it is criticism for the sake of being heard, while it should be obvious that the country will take no opposing action despite it's apparent outrage.
edit: As to the whole "going rambo" thing, I believe I said that Israel could have handled it better in the first sentence of my post. There is the thing that Israel HAD to board the vessels to search them, and in such an emotionally heated situation, all it would take is one person drawing a knife to escalate the situation into the inevitable confrontation. That, as I said, was the point of this. They could have gotten the aid in if they had allowed a search to be conducted. That was not the goal of it, but rather a way of making sure that they have ammunition in the PR storm that follows.
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A huge PR hit for Israel not matter if the shootings were warranted or not (which they probably were).
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On May 31 2010 22:29 Kazius wrote:As an Israeli that does NOT feel that this was handled as well as it could be, as a person who has been to Nablus, Ramallah, Jericho, Gaza, and other places in person, who actually knows Palestinians and Israelis, I felt obligated to give a localized perspective. I am a human rights activist, non-religious (agnostic), and I am most definitely pro-peace (moderate/pragmatic left-wing), but I have had friends killed in this conflict. Now that all my biases are clear, here are replies, additions, explanations and addendums to various comments which I found incomplete, wrong, or biased. I have went through the entire thread, and in my replies here are also replies to many other opinions voiced here. Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 15:10 Empyrean wrote:
I'm also pretty outraged that they had the audacity to attack such a flotilla. Granted, I can kind of see where they're coming from (if they don't make a stand, what's to say other ships won't bring in weapons or whatever?), but couldn't there have been a more err...non-violent way of addressing the issue? Anyone's thoughts? I know it's a pretty controversial issue, so please stay civilized. Israel had exhausted all non-violent means, including offering a way for aid to be transport into Gaza IF IT WAS SEARCHED FOR WEAPONS. The whole point of the floatilla was breaking the blockade in order for things OTHER than relief to enter. There are no problems getting food, water, fuel, medical supplies, etc. into Gaza. You could argue that this was an obvious relief effort - unfortunately, the Hammas has previously used relief via the sea as a platform for smuggling things such as anti-tank missiles, high explosives, and heavy machine guns. With this background, the whole point of the floatilla was THAT news report, and THESE reactions: + Show Spoiler +On May 31 2010 15:11 evanthebouncy! wrote:
never liked isreal... that country would be nothing if America doesn't back it up. On May 31 2010 15:17 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 15:13 illu wrote:
Are we going to compare Israel with North Korea?
Both with huge army? Yes
Both with nukes? Yes
Both like to sink ships? Yes
Both with great power behind their back? Yes But Israel is on the Good side and North Korea is part of the axis of evil. On May 31 2010 15:22 Two_DoWn wrote:
God dammit. US just needs to realize that Israel is a failed experiment, and that actually dealing with and supporting arab countries might be the answer. At least Israel is the Brits fault in the first place. Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 15:50 QibingZero wrote:
The sad thing is I'm pretty sure the Israeli Army actually has their people believing every aid convoy is really a secret plot to try to arm the Palestinian resistance. Ugh. -.- This is no secret plot. This is a direct attempt to break the blockade. There have been attempts at smuggling weapons via the sea earlier, but it would take a total retard to try and smuggle them on the mentioned floatilla. The whole point of it is to force Israel to not search for weapons on ships entering Gaza, and unfortunately, due to the history between Hammas and Israel, that is an unacceptable security risk; they are already firing missiles into Israel. The means to this end is that Israel can't afford not to search the floatilla, and therefor, it is a massive publicity stunt. They did it knowing that confrontation was inevitable, that because of some douchebag violence will ensue, and then the headlines will be "EVIL ISRAEL ATTACKS DEFENSELESS SUPPORT FOR POOR CHILDREN, think about the children!". And despite what you think, the Israeli army has very little in the way of PR. It's the politicians who do that work, just like in every other country. Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 16:00 zrules wrote:
The saddest part is: it will not crack mainstream U.S. news because U.S. stations don't feel an obligation to report "small problems like these." It's truly sad that the U.S. considers entertainment news on their favorite celebrities more important than news about people in the world who are living lives a worse condition than they themselves. It is sad to say, but the truth be told, people just don't seem to value these kinds of stories all too much. Most people only care about their lives and their problems. While it might be in relation to the culture that we are in. We strive to succeed for ourselves, when we want something as the U.S. we are going to do whatever it is to get it (Our gas is cheaper than almost every other country in the world...). In that same respect, unless we are spoon fed news, we don't really care about people in Europe having an economic meltdown, or the latest breaking of Geneva convention rules. Only when it might directly affect us by having our economy go down or have a potential war that we are supposed to prevent on our hands, do we finally get involved.
Now, my opinion: It's ridiculous for Israel to continually prevent the building of homes. The easiest way to make a radical is to deprive them of necessities, kill close individuals to that person, and give group more leverage in convincing individuals... It almost feels like Israel is trying to make a self-imposed Holocaust on residents of the Gaza strip, keeping them in a situation where traditional feelings of freedom that once echoed in America is continually alive, yet said wish for freedom results in the deaths of individuals which eventually becomes a self-imposed Holocaust of Palestinians trapped within a territory. Counting on international media is terrible, what is considered by many WW3 happened in Africa (millions of dead, many countries involved, with the death toll increasing by hundreds of thousands annually due to disease and starvation caused by that war) was largely unreported because it wasn't news. That aside, if every time a few people died and 30 were injured was reported, then EVERY SERIOUS BUS ACCIDENT WORLDWIDE WOULD BE ON CNN. You'd see nothing but that, 24/7. Comparing Gaza to the concentration camps is wrong on so many levels, as I have had grandparents that survived concentration camps, and have personally been in Gaza, and I can tell you that this comparison is invalid on so many levels that it more shows that you are willing to compare Nazis and Israelis using ignorance as an excuse than anything else. Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 16:10 EmeraldSparks wrote:On May 31 2010 16:06 Empyrean wrote:On May 31 2010 16:02 EmeraldSparks wrote:On May 31 2010 15:58 illu wrote:On May 31 2010 15:48 EmeraldSparks wrote:
I believe the Israeli response was disproportionate.
My guess as to Israeli policy was:
Non-resistance will be met by non-violence. Non-lethal resistance ill be met by non-lethality. Lethal resistance will be met by lethality.
I agree with that. That ship looks perfectly harmless and it's certainly not a battleship. However, all of the suicide bombers look 'harmless' too. They either go by themselves, or drive a car (which is not a conventional weapon). These ships are carrying members of parliaments across Europe, former American congressmen, Nobel Laureates and the like. It would be absurdly unlikely that they would be bearing firearms or explosives. This puts Israel in a really tough spot diplomatically. What IF weapons were found on some of those ships carrying those notable people? Lusitania style :/ This would, full stop, be the best possible thing that could happen for Israel diplomatically. Total public relations coup. Tremendous victory. Terrible terrible discrediting of anti-Israel factions. No it won't. Actually, my bet is that it would be reported in one line on CNN and MSNBC, and that's it. Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 16:25 Gnaix wrote:
When did the Jews get so fucking violent? Oh wait, that's because we gave them weapons and they started pwning all of the middle east... So now it's the Jews, not the Israelis? Well, nice to see people like you crawling out the woodwork. Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 16:29 Jibba wrote:Why do you think this is going to change the situation in Gaza? It's been in this state for years, and it's not just the Israelis to blame for creating this humanitarian crisis. Egypt is the one who built the wall. Saudis help finance it. The AKP will probably use it for political victory in Turkey once again, but they're not really concerned with Palestinians; they just have their own geo-political conflict going on with Israel. It's horrible what happened, but why would anything change? Assuming Israel wants to continue on a path of statism, it has the leverage and is really not dependent on the US anymore. EDIT: Gideon Levi's editorial in Haaretz. This was from before the attack. + Show Spoiler +Gaza flotilla drives Israel into a sea of stupidity
Of course the peace flotilla will not bring peace, and it won't even manage to reach the Gaza shore. The action plan has included dragging the ships to Ashdod port, but it has again dragged us to the shores of stupidity and wrongdoing
By Gideon Levy
The Israeli propaganda machine has reached new highs its hopeless frenzy. It has distributed menus from Gaza restaurants, along with false information. It embarrassed itself by entering a futile public relations battle, which it might have been better off never starting. They want to maintain the ineffective, illegal and unethical siege on Gaza and not let the "peace flotilla" dock off the Gaza coast? There is nothing to explain, certainly not to a world that will never buy the web of explanations, lies and tactics.
Only in Israel do people still accept these tainted goods. Reminiscent of a pre-battle ritual from ancient times, the chorus cheered without asking questions. White uniformed soldiers got ready in our name. Spokesmen delivered their deceptive explanations in our name. The grotesque scene is at our expense. And virtually none of us have disturbed the performance.
The chorus has been singing songs of falsehood and lies. We are all in the chorus saying there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza. We are all part of the chorus claiming the occupation of Gaza has ended, and that the flotilla is a violent attack on Israeli sovereignty - the cement is for building bunkers and the convoy is being funded by the Turkish Muslim Brotherhood. The Israeli siege of Gaza will topple Hamas and free Gilad Shalit. Foreign Ministry spokesman Yossi Levy, one of the most ridiculous of the propagandists, outdid himself when he unblinkingly proclaimed that the aid convoy headed toward Gaza was a violation of international law. Right. Exactly.
It's not the siege that is illegal, but rather the flotilla. It wasn't enough to distribute menus from Gaza restaurants through the Prime Minister's Office, (including the highly recommended beef Stroganoff and cream of spinach soup ) and flaunt the quantities of fuel that the Israeli army spokesman says Israel is shipping in. The propaganda operation has tried to sell us and the world the idea that the occupation of Gaza is over, but in any case, Israel has legal authority to bar humanitarian aid. All one pack of lies.
Only one voice spoiled the illusory celebration a little: an Amnesty International report on the situation in Gaza. Four out of five Gaza residents need humanitarian assistance. Hundreds are waiting to the point of embarrassment to be allowed out for medical treatment, and 28 already have died. This is despite all the Israeli army spokesman's briefings on the absence of a siege and the presence of assistance, but who cares?
And the preparations for the operation are also reminiscent of a particularly amusing farce: the feverish debate among the septet of ministers; the deployment of the Masada unit, the prison service's commando unit that specializes in penetrating prison cells; naval commando fighters with backup from the special police anti-terror unit and the army's Oketz canine unit; a special detention facility set up at the Ashdod port; and the electronic shield that was supposed to block broadcast of the ship's capture and the detention of those on board.
And all of this in the face of what? A few hundred international activists, mostly people of conscience whose reputation Israeli propaganda has sought to besmirch. They are really mostly people who care, which is their right and obligation, even if the siege doesn't concern us at all. Yes, this flotilla is indeed a political provocation, and what is protest action if not political provocation?
And facing them on the seas has been the Israeli ship of fools, floating but not knowing where or why. Why detain people? That's how it is. Why a siege? That's how it is. It's like the Noam Chomsky affair all over again, but big time this time. Of course the peace flotilla will not bring peace, and it won't even manage to reach the Gaza shore. The action plan has included dragging the ships to Ashdod port, but it has again dragged us to the shores of stupidity and wrongdoing. Again we will be portrayed not only as the ones that have blocked assistance, but also as fools who do everything to even further undermine our own standing. If that was one of the goals of the peace flotilla's organizers, they won big yesterday.
Five years ago, the noted Peruvian writer Mario Vargas Llosa, who is a Jerusalem Prize laureate, after concluding his visit to Israel, said the Israeli occupation was approaching its grotesque phase. Over the weekend Vargas Llosa, who considers himself a friend of Israel, was present to see that that phase has since reached new heights of absurdity. Gideon Levi (and most of the Ha'aretz editorial staff) are tend to get a lot of publicity by trolling the Israeli public. I'm a reader of that paper (they report news very well, and have some journalistic integrty). Only Amira Hess is more of a troll than this guy is. There is a reason why despite being the best in reporting international, political and economical news they are much smaller than the two big papers in Israel. And the proper response to trolls is to not repost or dignify their crap. Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 16:32 scion wrote:
People saying Israel has right to defend itself needs to get some information on the area. They get attacked precisely because of behaviors like this. They literally assume every Palestinians are potential threat. Israeli military drive Palestinians from their home, blockade them from Israel (literally walling them off) and segregate entire Palestinians living in Israel. Most Americans are oblivious to these things because American media avoid any negative news from Israel, and focuses on how Hamas and other Palestinian extremist groups attack Israel from all sides.
What Israelis are doing to the Palestinian population is fueling the extremist groups. Wouldn't you be angry if one day, army tank shows up and demolish your neighborhood and told you to leave the area because you are not authorized to live there?
This is almost positively another example of overreaction from Israel. I really hope the International community grows a pair to criticize and punish their action if it turns out to be the case. I used to be in the same opinion of yours, and then while (during my military service) we did a search in the road entering a small town, we found rifles hidden in an ambulance. Unfortunately, if Israel makes any exceptions for searches, those will be exploited, and therefor Israel is forced to resort to things like this. It's an ugly situation, and of course it makes Israel look bad. But that is the entire point, and I totally agree with you that Israel is fueling the extremist groups by it's actions. I find it brutal cynicism by the Hammas abusing this - they have no intention of allowing Israel to ease up on these actions because it would not serve them well. The average Palestinian, just as the average Israeli, wants peace. Everyone that has been involved in the conflict directly (and isn't nuts) just wants it to be over. But peace talks have failed before because they were rushed and went ahead too far too fast (that one is on Clinton) or were thwarted by politicians caring more about their power and staying in office than solving this messed up situation (Olmert, Hammas, Bush). Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 16:36 san-tokie wrote:On May 31 2010 16:08 ilbh wrote:On May 31 2010 15:19 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 31 2010 15:17 T.O.P. wrote:On May 31 2010 15:13 illu wrote:
Are we going to compare Israel with North Korea?
Both with huge army? Yes
Both with nukes? Yes
Both like to sink ships? Yes
Both with great power behind their back? Yes But Israel is on the Good side and North Korea is part of the axis of evil. lol I wonder why you lol'ed... Do some research on Mossad's activities and their agenda. They are believed by many to have orchestrated 9/11, as well as various other attacks on the US whilst posing as Palestinians. Basically Israel used the US to cripple Afghanistan and Iraq. Iran is inevitably next. "Good guys" don't exist anymore in today's world. Ah yes, the "JEWS DID 9/11" argument. Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 16:43 Mystlord wrote:
Time to pull aid from Israel!
Please? This is just ridiculous. Actually, the reason the aid is in place is to force Israel to not make arms deals with China, Russia and other international powers (massive deals were canceled because of requests by the US), force Israel to shut down certain military projects ( a good example is the IAI Lavi), to subsidize US arms manufacturers and business (Israel is forced to not spend it on local military products but only on US ones) and in order to get a strong political/military foothold in the middle-east. Unfortunately, the US uses Israel in the same way Iran use Lebanon - it is an indirect conflict of two great powers funding clashes on a global scale. The anti-Israeli sentiment in Iran is an extension of the anti-US sentiment (if you want corroboration, look at information about the Islamic revolution there). The implications of pulling that aid are huge. Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 16:50 Emon_ wrote:It's all about occupation. Israel wants to cripple Palestine and keep them isolated from the outside world. I'm sure this is the Jewish faith at it's finest. Seriously, why the fuck would you not allow another country to get 14 ton worth of supplies, which in itself is a piss in the sea compared to what they actually need in humanitarian aid. Ten are confirmed dead. Killed on international water. + Show Spoiler [offensive language] +Seriously, go fuck yourself Israel. And anyone who supports this bullshit. Israel doesn't want to cripple anyone. Israel is sick and tired of it's people getting killed. You have no idea how much the situation here is complicated. You choose one side without knowing the facts, and that's very easy from far away. Because once you zoom out enough, it's as simple as "big country vs. small country". + Show Spoiler [offensive retort] +And for saying this has anything to do with the Jewish religion: FUCK YOU, you have some serious soul searching to do if you even have one of those to search Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 17:16 Sabu113 wrote:
The difference between the West and Israel is that Israel plays to win. Also all the rational groups that want peace are being outbred by the religious extremists. So yeah peace, humanity and a good outcome are not likely to be found soon barring some dramatic event. Unfortunately, you are at least partially correct. Most people want peace, but it just feels so far out of reach nowadays. Each generation is not more extreme than the last, just more pessimistic. Most people just accept that the situation is shit, and will be for a long, LONG time. Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 18:04 mdb wrote:
Its so terrible. This conflict will never end as long as the country of Israel is in this location. I think the people who decided to build Israel on this place surrounded by Muslims and on muslim land are either the most stupid or the biggest trolls ever. Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 21:41 WeSt wrote:On May 31 2010 15:11 evanthebouncy! wrote:
never liked isreal... that country would be nothing if America doesn't back it up. Same as Kuweit. Some countries really piss me off because Israel shouldn't even exist if it wasn't the UK and the USA. People living in Palestine for thousands of years and then some assholes decide to divide their country into bits, take your most important city, and make a new countries. What's funny about this is that most people see Israel as the good guys... Sigh. Notice that Israel is the only country in the world which is delegitimized in such a way. There is no other country that people talk about and say "it should never have been founded". Israel is a fact, and it's here. It was created as a response to about 1500 years of segregation and hate (in everything from the church to Shakespeare's The Merchant of Venice - which is not any more racist than any other view of the Jews at the time), culminating in a medium case of attempted genocide. This is the only place the Jewish people had agreed on for such a state and had been settling it for the better part of a fifty years at the time (prior to which there was practically no people living there, neither Jewish nor otherwise). The conflict will end. It has to. You have no idea how much people are sick of all the death and destruction. Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 20:10 Masamune wrote:
The scary part about all this is that if Israel commits such acts like these out in the open, who knows what the hell happens behind closed doors; I've read about horror stories in Gaza commited by Israel. This time, they were unfortunate enough to have attacked western aid workers, which is probably why the spotlight is shining even brighter on the whole situation.
Someone earlier had sympathized with Israel because of it being surrounded by Arab states--and both sides here are at blame--but if I had the choice, I'd rather be surrounded by the Arabs than the Israelis, assuming we didn't get along. There is no military presence inside Gaza - rather than in accordance with the Geneva convention, Israel reserves the right to return fire towards the source of the attack, and when missiles are launched from things such as school-yards and the such, it is a cynical abuse of the situation by the people firing missiles in order to get people like you riled up. The situation is more complicated than you give it credit. Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 21:55 WeSt wrote:On May 31 2010 21:51 [DUF]MethodMan wrote:On May 31 2010 21:41 WeSt wrote:On May 31 2010 15:11 evanthebouncy! wrote:
never liked isreal... that country would be nothing if America doesn't back it up. Same as Kuweit. Some countries really piss me off because Israel shouldn't even exist if it wasn't the UK and the USA. People living in Palestine for thousands of years and then some assholes decide to divide their country into bits, take your most important city, and make a new countries. What's funny about this is that most people see Israel as the good guys... Sigh. Yeah right.. Educate yourself on the region that is Israel/Palestine nowdays. It has never belonged to anyone (for long lol). Btw, I'm not siding with anyone here, in my opinion people should just stop caring about this shithole because it's certainly not worth the effort and attention it's getting since the jews got settled there. But as lefties and latent commies get outraged by this so much it's always fun to watch the hate stir up. On May 31 2010 21:48 Pika Chu wrote:On May 31 2010 21:36 [DUF]MethodMan wrote:On May 31 2010 20:58 Masamune wrote:On May 31 2010 20:29 BlackJack wrote:On May 31 2010 20:09 BG1 wrote:On May 31 2010 19:55 beetlejuice wrote:On May 31 2010 19:49 BG1 wrote:
If those "doctors, writers and politicians" remained civil there would be no reason for anyone to get shot... The Israelis didn't just whip out their guns and decide to shoot people for fun. did you just read last 10 comments and didnt watch news? how stupid can ppl be? why do you think all this rage about? If those "doctors, writers and politicians" remained civil there would be no reason for anyone to get shot... The Israelis didn't just whip out their guns and decide to shoot people for fun. I know the answer, EHM... THEY DID? you keep on living in your dream world. also that's international territory water. other than this humanity crime. Israel commited an international crime. You're telling me they just shot the people for fun... Knowing full well the law, the international consequences and the media backlash and you're telling me to stop living in a dream world??? haha Oh and yes I wasn't there but you guys obviously were... right, that would never happen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Miller_(filmmaker)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corriehttp://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/nov/24/israel"This is commander. Anything that's mobile, that moves in the zone, even if it's a three-year-old, needs to be killed. Over." wow wtf. Rachel Aliene Corrie (April 10, 1979 – March 16, 2003) was an American member of the International Solidarity Movement (ISM) who was killed by a bulldozer operated by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) while attempting to prevent IDF forces from demolishing the home of local Palestinian pharmacist Samir Nasrallah.Apparently she was smashed against the wall of the home and the bulldozer... fucking disgusting. BG1 are you Jewish? That would explain a lot, as it does with HnR)hT. You should've read the rest of the wikipedia article.
While in Gaza, she took part in a demonstration as part of the February 15, 2003 anti-war protest against the invasion of Iraq, where she was photographed burning a mock US flag.[5][9] Robert Spencer criticized Corrie for having burned the flag in front of children, writing that she was “fostering... hatred” of the United States.[10]Just shows what kind of people get heroised nowadays. Yes, let's ram a bulldozer into anyone who burns a flag of the right and just ones. Flag burning of US/Israel must be punished by ramming a bulldozer into someone! They are good states, unlike evil world that provokes them! Maybe you don't believe it, but radical martyrdom isn't exclusive to muslims. Really? So building a barricade to separate countries is the best choice? Quite ironic you are German (no offense) you should know that walls aren't really good. Actually, the wall you are talking about lowered the amount of suicide bombings in Israel from once a month to none. It's not a permanent solution, but it has solved some of the bigger issues. And hey, if the Palestinians want to be recognized as a country, they shouldn't get outraged at someone trying to enforce a border. ------------------ Whew, finally. Now back to life.
Everyone who thinks they know something about the current situation in Gaza/West bank/Israel in general needs to read this post.
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Kazius, the isralei boarded the ship in international waters. They have NO right to make any boarding or search in international waters. Do you think that with as many important people on the board of the ship, they would ship armament? And why did they not ask to search for just in the presence of the observers? Why do the Israeli want to take the cargo and search it alone, disallowing presence of international observers? And same with delivering it, how does anyone know the cargo gets delivered to palestinians in need after it reaches israeli land and track is lost?
And a personal one for you. Would you agree on creating a palestinian state?
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On May 31 2010 23:09 Pika Chu wrote:
Kazius, the isralei boarded the ship in international waters. They have NO right to make any boarding or search in international waters. Do you think that with as many important people on the board of the ship, they would ship armament? And why did they not ask to search for just in the presence of the observers? Why do the Israeli want to take the cargo and search it alone, disallowing presence of international observers? And same with delivering it, how does anyone know the cargo gets delivered to palestinians in need after it reaches israeli land and track is lost?
And a personal one for you. Would you agree on creating a palestinian state?
I mentioned that the attempt here was to break the blockade, not to transfer weapons - it would be a completely bonehead move to hide weapons there. It was a way to force Israel to search, and create a situation where Israel can't win: either it allows the blockade to be broken, or during the search violent confrontation is a certainty in such a scenario, in which the PR ensuing would be a huge blow to Israel. Israel offered a way for the aid to reach Gaza via a search at Ashdod, but (as apparently no one read it the first few times) that was not the point here.
And yes, I agree that there should be a Palestinian state, and this is obvious by my being pro-peace. Everyone in Israel knows that for peace to happen, there will have to be a Palestinian country.
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On May 31 2010 21:16 Go0g3n wrote:
Jews vs Arabs, battle #4152, been going on for how long? 2k years? 3k? Will keep on going...
The stupid thing is that at first the Jews (and Christians) were Arabs -_-
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Kazius how is it an attempt to break a blockade in international waters with the ships even changing course ?
You think the rational decision after this is to do nothing because there are economic ties ? I think the obvious decision is to provide an escort to all turkish vessels in international waters. The UN security council meeting is in 2 and a half hours, and we'll know what the turkish requests are. You should hope for a simple request to do an inquiry like everyone else in the world does, probably in us military style : do an inquiry then punish no one.
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Wrote a post I regret writing, can this be removed please? Thanks. 
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Kazius, your entire argument disregards the fact that the blockade itself is a crime against humanity and utterly disgusting. That was partially what this convoys hoped to show the world, and boy did they succeed.
Also, the boarding seems to have been done on international waters, your soldiers illegally boarded those ships with arms.
"Israel had exhausted all non-violent means" my ass, the ships weren't even on your water. And what would stop you from block the harbor? I bet those writers and politicians would have some problems swimming ashore with cement on their backs...
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On May 31 2010 23:32 Ganondorf wrote:
Kazius how is it an attempt to break a blockade in international waters with the ships even changing course ?
You think the rational decision after this is to do nothing because there are economic ties ? I think the obvious decision is to provide an escort to all turkish vessels in international waters. The UN security council meeting is in 2 and a half hours, and we'll know what the turkish requests are. You should hope for a simple request to do an inquiry like everyone else in the world does, probably in us military style : do an inquiry then punish no one.
Pardon my cynicism, but the UN were the ones supposed to take control of the border between Israel and Lebanon after Israel left there. It took the Hizballah one day to kick the UN out of all the outposts, with the UN "military forces" just doing nothing about it. The UN does nothing.
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But Kazius, as you missed the points raised in my question i will try again. This happened in international waters, can Irsael put a blockade in international waters? Why do israeli authorities not permit ONU observation and track of the aid after it reaches Iraeli territory?
And last but not least, this blockade is against ONU regulations and decisions. Basically an illegal blockade. How do you, legally, see this attempt to stop/board the ships legitimate or illegitimate?
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On May 31 2010 23:36 Kazius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 23:32 Ganondorf wrote:
Kazius how is it an attempt to break a blockade in international waters with the ships even changing course ?
You think the rational decision after this is to do nothing because there are economic ties ? I think the obvious decision is to provide an escort to all turkish vessels in international waters. The UN security council meeting is in 2 and a half hours, and we'll know what the turkish requests are. You should hope for a simple request to do an inquiry like everyone else in the world does, probably in us military style : do an inquiry then punish no one. Pardon my cynicism, but the UN were the ones supposed to take control of the border between Israel and Lebanon after Israel left there. It took the Hizballah one day to kick the UN out of all the outposts, with the UN "military forces" just doing nothing about it. The UN does nothing.
With this i can agree, however it is important to know how far Turkey is willing to push this issue. And we will know that in a few hours. The UN by itself does nothing, and it is not supposed to. It is a mistake to use it for military peacekeeping operations imo. Its goal is to avoid wars by resolving issues politically and diplomatically. Not the first time "UN military forces" fail, something similar happened in the ex-jugoslavia, where only nato could settle things, and had to do it 2 times.
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At least it was only on one boat that this happened, so its not like they had an immediate drop in and start shooting policy. Though still seems an over-reaction to resistance on the one boat, but to be fair there are many many instances of soldiers doing this kind of thing in many different countries, sometimes discipline breaks down I guess.
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EPT
