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Norway28909 Posts
On May 31 2010 20:41 pvzvt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 19:16 Liquid`Drone wrote:
there is NO way of defending this. this convoi largely consists of 3 groups of people - academics/writers, politicians, and doctors. they sure as hell are not gun-smugglers or terrorists.
im hoping this can finally turn israel into the pariah it should be, like south africa 20 years ago, because it's not going to change without serious external pressure. unfortunately USA is key - fortunately you got barack in power atm. ??? there are ways to help the Gaza people and if its by humanitarian ways u can do so by working with the Gaza authority and Israeli one through the normal channels this was a well known provocation they knew its a provocation and its on their head
yes dude it's a provocation. but only an israeli can be crazy enough to buy into the belief that a provocation warrants killing 16 people. activists said they were prepared for israel firing warning shots and israel detaining them for a day or more. but actual bordering of the ships in international water and killing 16 civilians? to give a proper analogy, this is like shooting a kid who throws stones at you.
YES, the purpose behind the flotilla, just as much as giving aid, is to show public support of the palestinians and public opposition of the blockade. it's supposed to be a giant middle finger to israel.
but then what does israel do? it shoots and kills civilians, proving the need for a provocation right. if israel continues their policy of retaliating 100 times stronger then this conflict will never improve.
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On May 31 2010 20:44 pvzvt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 20:41 pvzvt wrote:On May 31 2010 19:16 Liquid`Drone wrote:
there is NO way of defending this. this convoi largely consists of 3 groups of people - academics/writers, politicians, and doctors. they sure as hell are not gun-smugglers or terrorists.
im hoping this can finally turn israel into the pariah it should be, like south africa 20 years ago, because it's not going to change without serious external pressure. unfortunately USA is key - fortunately you got barack in power atm. ??? there are ways to help the Gaza people and if its by humanitarian ways u can do so by working with the Gaza authority and Israeli one through the normal channels this was a well known provocation they knew its a provocation and its on their head and look into this ship while u all blame Israel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karine_A_Affair
Are you actually comparing the foatilla to the Karine A Affair? Foatilla left Turkey ports in a media event, with personalities such as writers, politicians and a noble prize winner. Only because both float, doesn't mean their contents are the same.
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pvzvt, nobody is doubting that Israel had a right to intercept ships going towards their blockade. A lot of people target Israel. What (at least most of us) are bothered by is the swiftness and ease with which the commandoes resort to trigger-happiness. There is no way that this loss of life was not preventable. There were no firearms on board and the crew HADN'T been switched like the 2002 case you're linking too.
This is sort of the international equivalent of civil disobedience, and the response in not in any sense proportional. And that IS a big thing, it cannot be defended by saying "they provoked us and they should have known what happens to people who piss us off in any way, at any time".
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On May 31 2010 15:18 EmeraldSparks wrote:Here's what I believe happened: Aid ships: "Let's go to Gaza." Israel: "Gaza is blockaded. Please deliver aid to Ashdod port and it will be searched and transferred." Aid ships: "We are going to go straight to Gaza until we are disabled or boarded." Israel: "We will be ready to stop you, then." Aid ships: "Ehh, lets enter Israeli waters in the daytime. We'll wait here for the night." Israel: "You may be in international waters but we'll stop you before you have your cameras ready." Israel: "Surrender your ship!" Martyr: "We're in international waters; this is piracy; die!"Israel: "We're being attacked! Open fire!" Aid ships: "Jesus fucking Christ!" And here we are today.
I personally don't agree at all with the blockade, however, I can't help but feel that this aid ship was pretty much fully aware things will reach this point. You don't try to run a naval blockade and think that it'll be just fine and dandy after being warned several times.
"We're going to stop you by force if you proceed"
"Well, we're coming in so you'll have to stop us by force"
"...ok".
Seems like a lose-lose situation for everyone involved.
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Israel: Gaza is fine, there is not crisis
World: Gaza need serious help.
+ considering that it's Israel invading Palestinian territory, I'm sure I wouldn't believe them saying: ''Gimme the aid, we will give it to Gaza''. So no surprise if Free Gaza took this approach. Futhermore this is seriously a crime coz civilians were killed although they knew it.
I just hope that the world will finally realize that Israel's government is not much different than the one that destroyed Europe some 60 years ago.
No offense to Israeli citizens, it's just that I can't stand the direction their government is taking. I have Israeli friends and they are great.
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Yea good comparison... They boarded a ship full of hostile civilians, they have machine guns and helmets but they're not invincible, if you take a shovel or a baseball bat or throw a brick at someone you could still seriously hurt or even kill a person. Not to mention the utter stupidity of attacking someone with a machine gun in the first place.
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On May 31 2010 20:42 BG1 wrote:
Yes you can obviously argue that the Israeli's retaliation may have been too much, it's very possible, no one here really knows for sure yet. But at the same time there was obvious provocation. You play with fire, you could get hurt. Both sides are in the wrong.
Wait a minute. You don't seem to understand that this happened in international waters and not only that but also Israel's blockade is illegal.
I will make this analogy for you. I am a big bad bully and i tell you that if you come closer than 2 streets from my house i am going to beat you up. So if you are walking on the street by my house and i kick your ass it's your fault for not listening to my warning? Or is it my fault because once the street was public property therefore i cannot limit access to it and second because i have no right to kick your ass even if you pass through my property, without doing any harm or representing a threat, just to see someone who lives on a house in the back of my house, and passing through my property would be the only way to get to it?
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On May 31 2010 20:29 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 20:09 BG1 wrote:On May 31 2010 19:55 beetlejuice wrote:On May 31 2010 19:49 BG1 wrote:
If those "doctors, writers and politicians" remained civil there would be no reason for anyone to get shot... The Israelis didn't just whip out their guns and decide to shoot people for fun. did you just read last 10 comments and didnt watch news? how stupid can ppl be? why do you think all this rage about? If those "doctors, writers and politicians" remained civil there would be no reason for anyone to get shot... The Israelis didn't just whip out their guns and decide to shoot people for fun. I know the answer, EHM... THEY DID? you keep on living in your dream world. also that's international territory water. other than this humanity crime. Israel commited an international crime. You're telling me they just shot the people for fun... Knowing full well the law, the international consequences and the media backlash and you're telling me to stop living in a dream world??? haha Oh and yes I wasn't there but you guys obviously were... right, that would never happen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Miller_(filmmaker)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corriehttp://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/nov/24/israel"This is commander. Anything that's mobile, that moves in the zone, even if it's a three-year-old, needs to be killed. Over."
wow wtf.
Rachel Aliene Corrie (April 10, 1979 – March 16, 2003) was an American member of the International Solidarity Movement (ISM) who was killed by a bulldozer operated by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) while attempting to prevent IDF forces from demolishing the home of local Palestinian pharmacist Samir Nasrallah.
Apparently she was smashed against the wall of the home and the bulldozer... fucking disgusting.
BG1 are you Jewish? That would explain a lot, as it does with HnR)hT.
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On May 31 2010 20:57 Pika Chu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 20:42 BG1 wrote:
Yes you can obviously argue that the Israeli's retaliation may have been too much, it's very possible, no one here really knows for sure yet. But at the same time there was obvious provocation. You play with fire, you could get hurt. Both sides are in the wrong. I will make this analogy for you. I am a big bad bully and i tell you that if you come closer than 2 streets from my house i am going to beat you up. So if you are walking on the street by my house and i kick your ass it's your fault for not listening to my warning? Or is it my fault because once the street was public property therefore i cannot limit access to it and second because i have no right to kick your ass even if you pass through my property, without doing any harm or representing a threat, just to see someone who lives on a house in the back of my house, and passing through my property would be the only way to get to it?
Poor analogy. Israel lets them pass, they just have to go through standard inspection at Ashdod first. They decided to be rebellious and put on a show for the media, things took a turn for the worse and people got unnecessarily hurt. Both sides are at fault.
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^^ Not cool Masamune...I agree with your substantive point and example, and I am routinely horrified by Israels staggering overreactions, as I've made clear in this thread, but dismissing someones opinion because of where they're from or what religion they are happens often enough to me that I can't support it when its aimed at others.
And BG1 do you honestly believe that what happened was a correct "first response" to being threatened literally by STICKS and STONES? No riot shields, no firing in the air, no cordoning off the ship so it couldn't move until they surrendered? Or was it just less bother to exterminate 16 human lives?
Protests turn violent (without the use of firearms) all the time. Very few countries in the world are like "screw it, they bring a stick, you bring a headshot".
You might think its stupid standing up to someone with firearms when you have stone-age tech but that might indicate to you the level of desperation that Israeli policies have formented.
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On May 31 2010 20:56 BG1 wrote:Yea good comparison... They boarded a ship full of hostile civilians, they have machine guns and helmets but they're not invincible, if you take a shovel or a baseball bat or throw a brick at someone you could still seriously hurt or even kill a person. Not to mention the utter stupidity of attacking someone with a machine gun in the first place.
True they aren't invincible, but they are trained commandos in one of the most well funded armies in the world, surely they have the skill to disarm a pissed off civilian of a melee weapon.
Even in a riot its not ok to just start shooting people, kick their asses..yeah fair enough, but leave the use of live bullets as an absolute last resort.
And to see if it was necessary as a last resort best to look at the how the numbers stack up.
4 Israelis soldiers wounded (no idea how badly)
16 Civilians killed according to Channel 2, (maybe another 30 wounded according to Turkish TV)
4 dead civilians for every 1 wounded soldier, that's a hard sell no matter how you cut it.
Still at any rate Israel is consigning itself to a gloomy future with this blockade by ensuring a steady stream of poverty-stricken extremists
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On May 31 2010 21:08 Autofire2 wrote:
^^ Not cool Masamune...I agree with your substantive point and example, and I am routinely horrified by Israels staggering overreactions, as I've made clear in this thread, but dismissing someones opinion because of where they're from or what religion they are happens often enough to me that I can't support it when its aimed at others.
Umm have you not read his posts in this thread? I'm asking if he's Jewish because then I could understand why he'd be biased. If I'm not going to dismiss someone's opinion, I want to make sure it's credible and objective.
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On May 31 2010 21:08 Autofire2 wrote:
And BG1 do you honestly believe that what happened was a correct "first response" to being threatened literally by STICKS and STONES? No riot shields, no firing in the air, no cordoning off the ship so it couldn't move until they surrendered? Or was it just less bother to exterminate 16 human lives?
Nope, I mentioned that it's very possible they overreacted. When things get out of hand people tend to make mistakes. However, for now nobody here knows what really happened and whether this was their "first response". We can only speculate. I'm simply stating that both sides are at fault.
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Russian Federation410 Posts
Jews vs Arabs, battle #4152, been going on for how long? 2k years? 3k? Will keep on going...
I think it's about time for Israel to look under "A" for American Way in their dictionary: 1. Bomb your enemy until the very last building falls. 2. Bomb again until the last living soul flees. 3. Bomb again just for the fun of it. 4. After things settle - nuke it. 5. Repeat.
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On May 31 2010 20:32 Aim Here wrote:
Hmm, technically, couldn't Britain, the US and all the NATO countries now be said to be at war with Israel, if Turkey so wished? After all, a government launching an unprovoked military attack on a Turkish vessel in international waters is an obvious act of aggression. Turkey has a proper cassus belli to declare a war on an aggressor, unlike the US and Britain's mealy-mouthed silliness that they used when they attacked Iraq.
Given that the ostensible purpose of the NATO treaty is that an attack on one member is to be treated as an attack on all of them, we could be legally be at war with Israel, if Turkey ever decided it wanted to make the appropriate legal point. Of course, Israel went as far as to bomb a US ship back in the day (1967), well before it had nukes, and it didn't slow down US aid any, so I don't envisage this point being made much in the press or by government spokespeople in the next few days.
Technically no, because it happened in international waters(it must happen on turkish territory to be able to call for nato aid afaik), but Turkey has reacted strongly already by cutting diplomatic relations with israel and calling for a un emergency security council meeting. I expect at least military escorts to ships, and if the blockade is illegal, that could escalate to war should israel insist and confront the military escorts. I also expect a proposal of sanctions against Israel by Turkey.
Now if we want to talk about conspircies, whis do we have 2 possible wars in the news at the exact time ? North vs south korea and Israel vs Turkey and eventually NATO should there be a proper casus belli. While israel might resist turkey, they would be steamrolled by nato, but i doubt it will come to this, even a war with turkey seems far fetched at this point.
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???
i fail to see where is the comparison
further more reports show the shooting begun only after one of the commando forces were hurt bad
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On May 31 2010 19:57 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 19:49 BG1 wrote:
If those "doctors, writers and politicians" remained civil there would be no reason for anyone to get shot... The Israelis didn't just whip out their guns and decide to shoot people for fun. or maybe that's precisely what they did. it wouldn't set a new fucking precedent, the only new thing here is that they are targeting western aid workers rather than random palestinians.
On May 31 2010 20:41 pvzvt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 19:16 Liquid`Drone wrote:
there is NO way of defending this. this convoi largely consists of 3 groups of people - academics/writers, politicians, and doctors. they sure as hell are not gun-smugglers or terrorists.
im hoping this can finally turn israel into the pariah it should be, like south africa 20 years ago, because it's not going to change without serious external pressure. unfortunately USA is key - fortunately you got barack in power atm. ??? there are ways to help the Gaza people and if its by humanitarian ways u can do so by working with the Gaza authority and Israeli one through the normal channels this was a well known provocation they knew its a provocation and its on their head
On May 31 2010 20:51 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 20:41 pvzvt wrote:On May 31 2010 19:16 Liquid`Drone wrote:
there is NO way of defending this. this convoi largely consists of 3 groups of people - academics/writers, politicians, and doctors. they sure as hell are not gun-smugglers or terrorists.
im hoping this can finally turn israel into the pariah it should be, like south africa 20 years ago, because it's not going to change without serious external pressure. unfortunately USA is key - fortunately you got barack in power atm. ??? there are ways to help the Gaza people and if its by humanitarian ways u can do so by working with the Gaza authority and Israeli one through the normal channels this was a well known provocation they knew its a provocation and its on their head yes dude it's a provocation. but only an israeli can be crazy enough to buy into the belief that a provocation warrants killing 16 people. activists said they were prepared for israel firing warning shots and israel detaining them for a day or more. but actual bordering of the ships in international water and killing 16 civilians? to give a proper analogy, this is like shooting a kid who throws stones at you. YES, the purpose behind the flotilla, just as much as giving aid, is to show public support of the palestinians and public opposition of the blockade. it's supposed to be a giant middle finger to israel. but then what does israel do? it shoots and kills civilians, proving the need for a provocation right. if israel continues their policy of retaliating 100 times stronger then this conflict will never improve.
You're such a sheep of mainstream media propaganda against Israel in your little socialistic disneyland country, no shit 
pvzvt, you shouldnt argue with him, he's just not able to see.
If it wasn't you, you should be banned for the bold part. But a nice way to show your unbiased opinion lol
User was temp banned for this post.
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I think the largest effect that this whole situation will have is to force European heads of government to be harder in their critique of Israel. It has long been the case that the populations of European countries have been very opposed to Israeli policy in gaza/west bank while the leaders in Europe have either supported Israel or have been to afraid to speak out. Occurrences like this force the leaders in Europe to raise their voices against Israel or they will look very bad in the eyes of their populations.
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On May 31 2010 20:58 Masamune wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 20:29 BlackJack wrote:On May 31 2010 20:09 BG1 wrote:On May 31 2010 19:55 beetlejuice wrote:On May 31 2010 19:49 BG1 wrote:
If those "doctors, writers and politicians" remained civil there would be no reason for anyone to get shot... The Israelis didn't just whip out their guns and decide to shoot people for fun. did you just read last 10 comments and didnt watch news? how stupid can ppl be? why do you think all this rage about? If those "doctors, writers and politicians" remained civil there would be no reason for anyone to get shot... The Israelis didn't just whip out their guns and decide to shoot people for fun. I know the answer, EHM... THEY DID? you keep on living in your dream world. also that's international territory water. other than this humanity crime. Israel commited an international crime. You're telling me they just shot the people for fun... Knowing full well the law, the international consequences and the media backlash and you're telling me to stop living in a dream world??? haha Oh and yes I wasn't there but you guys obviously were... right, that would never happen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Miller_(filmmaker)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corriehttp://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/nov/24/israel"This is commander. Anything that's mobile, that moves in the zone, even if it's a three-year-old, needs to be killed. Over." wow wtf. Rachel Aliene Corrie (April 10, 1979 – March 16, 2003) was an American member of the International Solidarity Movement (ISM) who was killed by a bulldozer operated by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) while attempting to prevent IDF forces from demolishing the home of local Palestinian pharmacist Samir Nasrallah.Apparently she was smashed against the wall of the home and the bulldozer... fucking disgusting. BG1 are you Jewish? That would explain a lot, as it does with HnR)hT.
You should've read the rest of the wikipedia article.
While in Gaza, she took part in a demonstration as part of the February 15, 2003 anti-war protest against the invasion of Iraq, where she was photographed burning a mock US flag.[5][9] Robert Spencer criticized Corrie for having burned the flag in front of children, writing that she was “fostering... hatred” of the United States.[10]
Just shows what kind of people get heroised nowadays.
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