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On May 31 2010 17:47 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 17:33 semantics wrote:On May 31 2010 17:17 hifriend wrote:
These guys have even publicly stated that they aren't really so much interested in bringing aid to gaza, as they are in stirring up a shit storm and pointing out israel as the big bad guy. Well they tried to avoid Israeli waters until day so they could get more publicity, just tells you that's they were not in it for aid but for other reasons. I don't see how that's mutually exclusive. If you're trying to give aid to somebody and somebody else is preventing you then it only makes sense to try to publicize the fact that people are preventing you in giving aid.
Going for showmanship over results. There is a reason that the blockade lasted this long, it's amazing how people walk over that part. Granted the blockage probably should have stopped in a year after it was enacted seeing as it didn't bring the desired result. But would you give supplies to those who would fire rockets at your ass all day if they could? It's not like they didn't try to arrange things like "hey you stop trying to kills us and we be coo bro" There is still a willing faction with in gaza who open operate to blow the hell out of Israel. Now there are other parts like the west bank which are well more mannered about their mis-treatment but you get the jist.
On May 31 2010 18:04 mdb wrote:
Its so terrible. This conflict will never end as long as the country of Israel is in this location. I think the people who decided to build Israel on this place surrounded by Muslims and on muslim land are either the most stupid or the biggest trolls ever.
Muslims say it's their land but you realize that the big 3, Jewish, Christian and Muslims have claim to that land supposedly as old as time itself =p. The Crusades weren't just because Europe had a shit ton of soldier with nothing to do, they also wanted Jerusalem back. And that every jewish holiday goes along the lines of "someone tried to kill us, we survived let eat."
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While I am disappointed at what's happened, you can't be too harsh on Israel. As someone already pointed out, being surrounded by countries and people that all want to blow them off the face of the earth, they have some right to be more defensive about such situations than we may allow for.
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On May 31 2010 18:05 semantics wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 17:47 BlackJack wrote:On May 31 2010 17:33 semantics wrote:On May 31 2010 17:17 hifriend wrote:
These guys have even publicly stated that they aren't really so much interested in bringing aid to gaza, as they are in stirring up a shit storm and pointing out israel as the big bad guy. Well they tried to avoid Israeli waters until day so they could get more publicity, just tells you that's they were not in it for aid but for other reasons. I don't see how that's mutually exclusive. If you're trying to give aid to somebody and somebody else is preventing you then it only makes sense to try to publicize the fact that people are preventing you in giving aid. Going for showmanship over results.
Showmanship is the only way to get results. When you're up against a force with 100x your military capability and that could annihilate you anytime they wanted, your only weapon is a camera. The kid at Tiananmen Square wouldn't have accomplished anything if it weren't for the guy filming it.
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It's not paranoia if they really are out to get you..
Yeah, it's really sad that people can't get along it really is. I've never really understood conflicts like this, it just snowballs from one act into another revenge and revenge to avenge the revenged, or something like that.
I don't see why those two sides just can't live together sure they may not like each other but no need to go building walls shooting people or blowing up nightclubs and buses. I don't care for my some of my neighbours but I am not going to shoot them or blow up their pool.
It's fairly obvious from the article that this boat was just trying to bring attention to the cause and ended up getting out of hand. Just another bit of fuel to the fire I am afraid. Blargh, the news depresses me too much.
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On May 31 2010 18:38 Parnage wrote:
It's not paranoia if they really are out to get you..
Yeah, it's really sad that people can't get along it really is. I've never really understood conflicts like this, it just snowballs from one act into another revenge and revenge to avenge the revenged, or something like that.
I don't see why those two sides just can't live together sure they may not like each other but no need to go building walls shooting people or blowing up nightclubs and buses. I don't care for my some of my neighbours but I am not going to shoot them or blow up their pool.
It's fairly obvious from the article that this boat was just trying to bring attention to the cause and ended up getting out of hand. Just another bit of fuel to the fire I am afraid. Blargh, the news depresses me too much.
"Men of sense often learn from their enemies. It is from their foes, not their friends, that cities learn the lesson of building high walls and ships of war."
-Aristophanes
Anyways revenge breeds revenge stops when you kill enough people, just have to kill them all, not pretty.
But how else do you settle things, you simply cannot argue with some over things as that assumes both sides are reasonable, and this is one of those things in which people have been throwing fits about for a very very long time.
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Norway28811 Posts
there is NO way of defending this. this convoi largely consists of 3 groups of people - academics/writers, politicians, and doctors. they sure as hell are not gun-smugglers or terrorists.
im hoping this can finally turn israel into the pariah it should be, like south africa 20 years ago, because it's not going to change without serious external pressure. unfortunately USA is key - fortunately you got barack in power atm.
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This is sad, I'm quite shocked that Israel would do anything like this, especially with so many civil casualties.
I hope UN starts investigating this asap, and find the reason how anything in the first place could happen.
The news are getting updated every minute and new details are coming forth. Meh, this whole thing seems like a big mess.
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HnR)hT
United States3468 Posts
1. Muslims lie.
2. Pro-"Palestinian" Israeli activists lie.
3. Because of 1) and 2), we don't really know what has happened.
4. The "aid" flotilla is in any case a naked act of aggression against Israel because:
a) Gaza doesn't need aid, stories designed to create that impression are simply manipulation.
b) Because Gazan Arabs are in a perpetual state of war against Israel and have no qualms about using whatever - whatever means available to weaken their prey, Israel simply must act to prevent weapons smuggling as an elementary act of self-preservations, hence the blockade.
c) This flotilla was nothing but a stunt, organized by Israel's enemies, to flout Israel's defensive blockade.
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On May 31 2010 19:22 HnR)hT wrote:
1. Muslims lie.
2. Pro-"Palestinian" Israeli activists lie.
3. Because of 1) and 2), we don't really know what has happened.
4. The "aid" flotilla is in any case a naked act of aggression against Israel because:
a) Gaza doesn't need aid, stories designed to create that impression are simply manipulation.
b) Because Gazan Arabs are in a perpetual state of war against Israel and have no qualms about using whatever - whatever means available to weaken their prey, Israel simply must act to prevent weapons smuggling as an elementary act of self-preservations, hence the blockade.
c) This flotilla was nothing but a stunt, organized by Israel's enemies, to flout Israel's defensive blockade.
So you think, all the people from the European parliament were weapon smugglers? Or the peace noble prize winner was a possible terrorist?
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On May 31 2010 15:18 EmeraldSparks wrote:Here's what I believe happened: Aid ships: "Let's go to Gaza." Israel: "Gaza is blockaded. Please deliver aid to Ashdod port and it will be searched and transferred." Aid ships: "We are going to go straight to Gaza until we are disabled or boarded." Israel: "We will be ready to stop you, then." Aid ships: "Ehh, lets enter Israeli waters in the daytime. We'll wait here for the night." Israel: "You may be in international waters but we'll stop you before you have your cameras ready." Israel: "Surrender your ship!" Martyr: "We're in international waters; this is piracy; die!"Israel: "We're being attacked! Open fire!" Aid ships: "Jesus fucking Christ!" And here we are today.
Yeah, just propaganda like literally all news from Middle East.
Edit:
On May 31 2010 19:30 mdb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 19:22 HnR)hT wrote:
1. Muslims lie.
2. Pro-"Palestinian" Israeli activists lie.
3. Because of 1) and 2), we don't really know what has happened.
4. The "aid" flotilla is in any case a naked act of aggression against Israel because:
a) Gaza doesn't need aid, stories designed to create that impression are simply manipulation.
b) Because Gazan Arabs are in a perpetual state of war against Israel and have no qualms about using whatever - whatever means available to weaken their prey, Israel simply must act to prevent weapons smuggling as an elementary act of self-preservations, hence the blockade.
c) This flotilla was nothing but a stunt, organized by Israel's enemies, to flout Israel's defensive blockade. So you think, all the people from the European parliament were weapon smugglers? Or the peace noble prize winner was a possible terrorist?
Well, it would be interesting to know what kind of members of the EU parliament were involved in this. It's common knowledge there still are left and right extremists (who both hate Israel) "representing" their countries. So, not a terrorist, but terrorist sympathiser.
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come on ....
how the hell did this came into my leisure time ??
every where u go politics !!
jeez btw there are some comments here that really shocked me
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Norway28811 Posts
On May 31 2010 19:22 HnR)hT wrote:
1. Muslims lie.
2. Pro-"Palestinian" Israeli activists lie.
3. Because of 1) and 2), we don't really know what has happened.
4. The "aid" flotilla is in any case a naked act of aggression against Israel because:
a) Gaza doesn't need aid, stories designed to create that impression are simply manipulation.
b) Because Gazan Arabs are in a perpetual state of war against Israel and have no qualms about using whatever - whatever means available to weaken their prey, Israel simply must act to prevent weapons smuggling as an elementary act of self-preservations, hence the blockade.
c) This flotilla was nothing but a stunt, organized by Israel's enemies, to flout Israel's defensive blockade.
1. 2 and 3: this is just stupid.
4:
a) gaza needs aid.
b) the people on this flotilla are largely doctors, writers and politicians. the swedish group included members of parliament, historians, writers and doctors..
c) then it was pretty fucking successful in showing how over the top israel is.. attacking a group of 600 unarmed civilians. it's god damn sickening that anyone can just accept this or be apoleptic.
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If those "doctors, writers and politicians" remained civil there would be no reason for anyone to get shot... The Israelis didn't just whip out their guns and decide to shoot people for fun.
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BG1 would know so because he was aboard one of the convoys.
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Norway28811 Posts
On May 31 2010 19:49 BG1 wrote:
If those "doctors, writers and politicians" remained civil there would be no reason for anyone to get shot... The Israelis didn't just whip out their guns and decide to shoot people for fun.
or maybe that's precisely what they did. it wouldn't set a new fucking precedent, the only new thing here is that they are targeting western aid workers rather than random palestinians.
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On May 31 2010 19:55 beetlejuice wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 19:49 BG1 wrote:
If those "doctors, writers and politicians" remained civil there would be no reason for anyone to get shot... The Israelis didn't just whip out their guns and decide to shoot people for fun. did you just read last 10 comments and didnt watch news? how stupid can ppl be? why do you think all this rage about? If those "doctors, writers and politicians" remained civil there would be no reason for anyone to get shot... The Israelis didn't just whip out their guns and decide to shoot people for fun. I know the answer, EHM... THEY DID? you keep on living in your dream world. also that's international territory water. other than this humanity crime. Israel commited an international crime.
You're telling me they just shot the people for fun... Knowing full well the law, the international consequences and the media backlash and you're telling me to stop living in a dream world??? haha
Oh and yes I wasn't there but you guys obviously were...
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The scary part about all this is that if Israel commits such acts like these out in the open, who knows what the hell happens behind closed doors; I've read about horror stories in Gaza commited by Israel. This time, they were unfortunate enough to have attacked western aid workers, which is probably why the spotlight is shining even brighter on the whole situation.
Someone earlier had sympathized with Israel because of it being surrounded by Arab states--and both sides here are at blame--but if I had the choice, I'd rather be surrounded by the Arabs than the Israelis, assuming we didn't get along.
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EPT
