On June 12 2010 01:38 Squeegy wrote: How about we are not even discussing the Flotilla here but IDF's "reputation" of killing civilians? You don't have to go farther than Iraq and Afghanistan to find these cases. And the point never was that it's okay, the point was that Israel is not an exception as this is very common during wars.
A track record of committing atrocities and then LYING about it goes a long way towards whether we should give credibility to the IDF's latest claims of innosence.
The fact that they have lied so much in the past AND also in this incident is the reason why I have a very very hard time believing a single thing coming out of their mouth.
But you already know this. You already know how they stole all the evidence and how they are refusing an independent investigation to clear up the matter. I suspect you don't really care what the truth is because Israel must be defended no matter what.
Don't worry, the lies and misinformation activists tendsto sprout has done the same to me!
I dont think i fully understand what on earth you are talking about, but if you seriously support Israel then you must be some uninformed little lapp. Im not saying i support those activists on the boats cus they knew what they were getting themselves into but my point is that Israel time and time again breaks international laws; bombing hospitals, bombing UN-schools the list just goes on and on and every time they come with some lie to protect themselves, i dont hate jews i just hate israel.
Perhaps the reason why I support Israel is because I don't think they intentionally bomb schools*. Have you read about the peace talks at Camp David in 2000? Clinton Paremeters? I suggest you do and see how much Israel really wants peace and how little Palestine does.
I can't remember who said it, but it went something like this:
When Palestinians will love their children more than they hate Israel we shall have peace.
Well, maybe that's not entirely true. I'm sure a lot of Palestinians also want peace.
Do you know anything about the palestinian & Israelian history? Do you even read anything about Israel? If you did you should know that Israel were always the one who started the war... if they wanted peace, they would have tried something else before attacking the arabic nation during the 6 days war (and not respecting the warning of the europeans nations who told all the country to step back). If you did read anything, you should know that Israel also pushed the arabic nation to go to war during the first arabic-israeli war (1948) with some massacre like the massacre of Deir Yassin. I'm not anti israeli, but come one can't you accept that they also made some belligerant move ? Attacking a ship in the International waters is part of that.
A good proof of how your emotions are getting the best of you is the part I bolded. I have mentioned Benny Morris already in this thread, and if you haven't spend all your time reading nonsense like that Invention book, you should know that he hasn't been afraid to expose massacres commited by Israel. I am very well aware that Israel is not perfect. Oh and keep telling yourself that (that you're not anti-Israeli).
Lol keep telling yourself that you are not anti-palestinian. I know Benny Morris (I quoted some of his work just three post before), the Invention is also a book made by an israeli you know. I know full well that some israeli historian exposed the massacres comitted by Israel. What I'm saying is that the arabic country are not the only who are attacking. You are so pro israel that you cannot even respond to me about the fact that during all of the israel vs arab wars, Israel always had territory objectiv.
I'm more neutral than you are man. ;X
You should try inventing less and reading more.
1) I never stated I am not anti-Palestinian.
LoL ok, so you are an anti-palestinian, good to know who you are talking to.
2) Shlomo being an Israeli is neither news or an issue to me.
Cool, so ?
3) You have been explicitly stating that Israel has been the one attacking. I haven't seen you critize Arabs even once. Don't believe me? Look up what you've been writing and then attempt to provide me with a quote that disproves this. I dare you.
No please read me and put down the israeli google for a second: I try to prove that the arabic are not the only one who wanted war in almost all the conflict. My point is on Israel's meaning, if you want me to talk about arabs, then i will tell you. I think that radical islamism is a great threat at the moment, but israel is feeding it, just like Bush's US did. And yes, part of the arabic world want israel dead, that's a problem and most of the countries must assure their support to israel... BUT NOT LET THEM DO WHATEVER THEY WANT.
4) I am not sure what you mean? That they fought the wars only for territory? Or they wanted to grab land, especially after it came clear that they would win?
They wanted to grab land, so they were not victims: they had objectiv during almost all wars. It's hard for you to understand because you are so pro israeli than you cannot even read a good argument showing you that Israel were also attacking.
Please, try to post something more interesting. Nice to tell me to read when you have like 0 argument. Knowing Benny Morris name is not a big feat man.
Alright, well after re-reading and reaffirming the history behind the original 1947-1949 explusion/war. It's clear that, yes Israel was the aggressors. They may have had a realistic fear of terrorist insurgency, but it's clear that they were land-grabbing.
On June 12 2010 04:44 ArKaDo wrote: Can't you understand basic things? It's just an exemple that I am giving to you to explain you that the arabs are not the "big villain".
Well you clearly can't understand basic english and I'm supposed to be dyslexic!, but that's beside the point.
I don't think that the arabs are the big villains, i just think that a certain groups of them are malicious in their attitude towards jews and want to kill them, and they influence the masses who have their own valid reasons for having lighter anger feelings for the jews, and that in general the jewish people want a more peaceful solution than certain arabs do.
I don't care who they are. And I know the jewish army was not linked to the massacre. Did it change anything about what i'm saying ? The jews at the moment used the massacre to terrories the Palestinian and made them flee.
Again you still haven't read the article about what happened, where the JEWISH people helped to protect the village, and that the Arabs at the time had a massive blockade on Jerusalem which the Jewish people were trying to break, and that the extremist group actually thought that the villagers would flee when they saw the fighter planes, leaving only the Arab army, but the villagers confused it for a normal raid from a random group so they fought back. Also the Jewish aggression group at one point tried to help the wounded civilians who mistakenly fought back out by making makeshift stretchers to help them to safety and medical aid, and the other villagers started to SHOOT them carrying the wounded. Again READ YOUR OWN ARTICLE before arguing, thats a basic thing to understand isn't it? Edit: also your use of "the Jews used it to terrorize the Palestinians" is wrong as well, most jews condemned the attacks and some of them, the Givat Shaul, even fought against the attack.
You still have failed to address the history i wrote about about 2 pages back, and you said "What I'm saying is that, due to Deir Yassin, all the arabic nation were pushed further to war." What your saying is that the Arabic nations were pushed to war when you don't actually have a clue about the history at all, that's what your saying.
Some of the part you said are not in my article since i read it in french. So that's maybe why. In french it is said that the village had no strategical value. Almost every jews historian explained the impact of the massacre so it must be true. Most jews condemned it, yes, but not everyone, and that does not change the fact that it pushed the palestinian to exodus and pushed the arabic neighbour to come in the conflict?
Panic overwhelmed the Arabs of Eretz Israel. Kolonia village, which had previously repulsed every attack of the Haganah, was evacuated overnight and fell without further fighting. Beit-Iksa was also evacuated. These two places overlooked the main road; and their fall, together with the capture of al-Qastal by the Haganah, made it possible to keep open the road to Jerusalem. In the rest of the country, too, the Arabs began to flee in terror, even before they clashed with Jewish forces. Not what happened at Deir Yassin, but what was invented about Deir Yassin, helped to carve the way to our decisive victories on the battlefield ... The legend was worth half a dozen battalions to the forces of Israel.
The jewish helped them and WHAT? The Deir Yassin also helped them by refusing the arabic army to come and put their army.
Damn you're a hard head guy... can you just go ON SUBJECT? The subject is: this massacre pushed the arabic country to war
The Deir Yassin attack, along with attacks on Tiberias, Haifa, and Jaffa, put pressure on Arab governments to invade Palestine. News of the killings had aroused public anger in the Arab world, which the governments felt unable to ignore.[89] Syria's foreign minister remarked that the Arab public's desire for war was irresistible. The arrival of tens of thousands of refugees further convinced them to act. A consensus favoring invasion began to emerge the day after Deir Yassin, at a meeting on April 10 in Cairo of the Arab League Political Committee.
I don't understand your point, what is the meaning behind telling me that some jews helped them and that jerusalem was facing a blockade at the moment? I'm just telling you the importance of this massacre in the course of action, putting the finger on this specifical event to show you how the Jews also made some massacre and how it pushed others country to war. It's not just some arabs telling themselves "OK fuck let's kill them all".
In 1949, despite protests, the Jerusalem neighborhood of Givat Shaul Bet was built on what had been Deir Yassin's land, now considered part of Har Nof, an Orthodox area. Four Jewish scholars, Martin Buber, Ernst Simon, Werner Senator, and Cecil Roth, wrote to Israel's first prime minister, David Ben-Gurion, asking that Deir Yassin be left uninhabited, or that its settlement be postponed. They wrote that it had become "infamous throughout the Jewish world, the Arab world and the whole world." Settling the land so soon after the killings would amount to an endorsement of them. Ben-Gurion failed to respond, though the correspondents sent him copy after copy. Eventually his secretary replied that he had been too busy to read their letter.
"I'm just telling you the importance of this massacre in the course of action," No your saying its the main factor, and it was by the Jews, therefore the Jews started it and forced the poor arabs hands who only wanted peace is basically what your saying, which is not true. For a start it wasn't the main factor, there had been tension beforehand like i said with the Hebron Massacre and the 1936–1939 Arab revolt by the nationalist Arab uprising, you making it out as if all was peaceful in the middle east and then BAM the jews massacred a bunch of people for no reason. This was an event that happened during the ongoing conflict of the Arab Israel tension and wars. There is nothing special about this event, it didn't start the conflict and it may of been the most recent event before the war but it wasn't the only factor at all, both sides had already killed thousands by this point. If anything this was used by the arab nations as a reason to go to war they wanted, like the infamous Franz Ferdinand assassination, which also was blamed for starting a war when really it was more to do with the countries wanted to fight. Also it wasn't even the first war, the first war was the Civil War in 1947, so i don't really understand this relevance of this specific event your picking at. Again ill mention him, why don't we talk about The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Amin al-Husayni, the Chairman of the Arab Higher Committee who was a large part of the arab forces leadership, lets hear one of his quotes shall we?
"Arabs, arise as one man and fight for your sacred rights. Kill Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, history, and religion. This saves your honor. God is with you."
wow what a nice guy, obviously just fighting the oppressive Israel, i think he should get Nobel peace prize. Not to mention he aligned himself with the nazi's and agreed with their "final" solution of the jews, but hey it doesn't sound like he's a fanatic who want to kill all the jews right? oh no thats right he did just say "Kill Jews wherever you find them", my bad. /end-sarcasm. How does that guy, who was a leader of one of the armies, not strike you as a "Oh fuck lets kill them" kind of guy?
"I'm just telling you the importance of this massacre in the course of action," No your saying its the main factor, and it was by the Jews, therefore the Jews started it and forced the poor arabs hands who only wanted peace is basically what your saying, which is not true. For a start it wasn't the main factor, there had been tension beforehand like i said with the Hebron Massacre and the 1936–1939 Arab revolt by the nationalist Arab uprising, you making it out as if all was peaceful in the middle east and then BAM the jews massacred a bunch of people for no reason.
THAT IS HOW YOU ARE READING WHAT I AM SAYING. I only said that the Deir Yassin massacre pushed the OTHER COUNTRIES to war (neighbour). But it's amazing how you can just skip the fact that this war was the only event that actually permitted the jews to take their independance and create the state of Israel. Them having territorial objectiv (meaning they WANTED to grab land, and just look how they started to build on the Deir Yassin village not even 1 years after the massacre) is really important to understand that they were not pure victims, they wanted to go to war to expand themselves.
"Arabs, arise as one man and fight for your sacred rights. Kill Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, history, and religion. This saves your honor. God is with you."
Lol man... be serious, he is saying that to push his soldier to fight. Just for fun read that :
When we land against the enemy, don't forget to hit him and hit him hard. When we meet the enemy we will kill him. We will show him no mercy. He has killed thousands of your comrades and he must die. If your company officers in leading your men against the enemy find him shooting at you and when you get within two hundred yards of him he wishes to surrender—oh no! That bastard will die! You will kill him. Stick him between the third and fourth ribs. You will tell your men that. They must have the killer instinct. Tell them to stick him. Stick him in the liver. We will get the name of killers and killers are immortal. When word reaches him that he is being faced by a killer battalion he will fight less. We must build up that name as killers.
That's the general Patton during WWII before the invasion of Sicily. He is referring to german & italian.
On June 12 2010 01:38 Squeegy wrote: How about we are not even discussing the Flotilla here but IDF's "reputation" of killing civilians? You don't have to go farther than Iraq and Afghanistan to find these cases. And the point never was that it's okay, the point was that Israel is not an exception as this is very common during wars.
A track record of committing atrocities and then LYING about it goes a long way towards whether we should give credibility to the IDF's latest claims of innosence.
The fact that they have lied so much in the past AND also in this incident is the reason why I have a very very hard time believing a single thing coming out of their mouth.
But you already know this. You already know how they stole all the evidence and how they are refusing an independent investigation to clear up the matter. I suspect you don't really care what the truth is because Israel must be defended no matter what.
Don't worry, the lies and misinformation activists tendsto sprout has done the same to me!
I dont think i fully understand what on earth you are talking about, but if you seriously support Israel then you must be some uninformed little lapp. Im not saying i support those activists on the boats cus they knew what they were getting themselves into but my point is that Israel time and time again breaks international laws; bombing hospitals, bombing UN-schools the list just goes on and on and every time they come with some lie to protect themselves, i dont hate jews i just hate israel.
Perhaps the reason why I support Israel is because I don't think they intentionally bomb schools*. Have you read about the peace talks at Camp David in 2000? Clinton Paremeters? I suggest you do and see how much Israel really wants peace and how little Palestine does.
I can't remember who said it, but it went something like this:
When Palestinians will love their children more than they hate Israel we shall have peace.
Well, maybe that's not entirely true. I'm sure a lot of Palestinians also want peace.
Do you know anything about the palestinian & Israelian history? Do you even read anything about Israel? If you did you should know that Israel were always the one who started the war... if they wanted peace, they would have tried something else before attacking the arabic nation during the 6 days war (and not respecting the warning of the europeans nations who told all the country to step back). If you did read anything, you should know that Israel also pushed the arabic nation to go to war during the first arabic-israeli war (1948) with some massacre like the massacre of Deir Yassin. I'm not anti israeli, but come one can't you accept that they also made some belligerant move ? Attacking a ship in the International waters is part of that.
A good proof of how your emotions are getting the best of you is the part I bolded. I have mentioned Benny Morris already in this thread, and if you haven't spend all your time reading nonsense like that Invention book, you should know that he hasn't been afraid to expose massacres commited by Israel. I am very well aware that Israel is not perfect. Oh and keep telling yourself that (that you're not anti-Israeli).
Lol keep telling yourself that you are not anti-palestinian. I know Benny Morris (I quoted some of his work just three post before), the Invention is also a book made by an israeli you know. I know full well that some israeli historian exposed the massacres comitted by Israel. What I'm saying is that the arabic country are not the only who are attacking. You are so pro israel that you cannot even respond to me about the fact that during all of the israel vs arab wars, Israel always had territory objectiv.
I'm more neutral than you are man. ;X
You should try inventing less and reading more.
1) I never stated I am not anti-Palestinian.
LoL ok, so you are an anti-palestinian, good to know who you are talking to.
3) You have been explicitly stating that Israel has been the one attacking. I haven't seen you critize Arabs even once. Don't believe me? Look up what you've been writing and then attempt to provide me with a quote that disproves this. I dare you.
No please read me and put down the israeli google for a second: I try to prove that the arabic are not the only one who wanted war in almost all the conflict. My point is on Israel's meaning, if you want me to talk about arabs, then i will tell you. I think that radical islamism is a great threat at the moment, but israel is feeding it, just like Bush's US did. And yes, part of the arabic world want israel dead, that's a problem and most of the countries must assure their support to israel... BUT NOT LET THEM DO WHATEVER THEY WANT.
4) I am not sure what you mean? That they fought the wars only for territory? Or they wanted to grab land, especially after it came clear that they would win?
They wanted to grab land, so they were not victims: they had objectiv during almost all wars. It's hard for you to understand because you are so pro israeli than you cannot even read a good argument showing you that Israel were also attacking.
Please, try to post something more interesting. Nice to tell me to read when you have like 0 argument. Knowing Benny Morris name is not a big feat man.
You must be a racist then, right? (You never denied it.)
I don't know, you felt the need to point out that he's Israeli as if it made some difference to me. Of course you and I both know that it's because you assumed that I am defending all things Israeli.
Pretty much nobody, with perhaps one or two exceptions, has said that Arabs were the only ones who wanted war. In fact the opposite is quite true. Most have acknowledges Israel having its hands in the soup. But reading isn't as much fun as assuming.
Yeah, instead of continuing to call me pro-Israel, maybe you should just stop and admit that I actually never claimed what you thought I claimed; I have been admitting Israel's flaws many times. But that would make you look silly, now wouldn't it? But I do disagree about land being their sole objective in all the wars. For example, the 1948 war and the Six-Day war were also battles for survival. At least in the Israeli mind, for their fear about what would happen if they lost wa genuine. But no I don't really care to argue this. I have focused almost only at the past ten years, and that's what I'll continue to do.
Actually, mentioning his name was only supposed to show that you are dumb and wrong.
"I'm just telling you the importance of this massacre in the course of action," No your saying its the main factor, and it was by the Jews, therefore the Jews started it and forced the poor arabs hands who only wanted peace is basically what your saying, which is not true. For a start it wasn't the main factor, there had been tension beforehand like i said with the Hebron Massacre and the 1936–1939 Arab revolt by the nationalist Arab uprising, you making it out as if all was peaceful in the middle east and then BAM the jews massacred a bunch of people for no reason.
THAT IS HOW YOU ARE READING WHAT I AM SAYING. I only said that the Deir Yassin massacre pushed the OTHER COUNTRIES to war (neighbour). But it's amazing how you can just skip the fact that this war was the only event that actually permitted the jews to take their independance and create the state of Israel. Them having territorial objectiv (meaning they WANTED to grab land, and just look how they started to build on the Deir Yassin village not even 1 years after the massacre) is really important to understand that they were not pure victims, they wanted to go to war to expand themselves.
"Arabs, arise as one man and fight for your sacred rights. Kill Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, history, and religion. This saves your honor. God is with you."
Lol man... be serious, he is saying that to push his soldier to fight. Just for fun read that :
When we land against the enemy, don't forget to hit him and hit him hard. When we meet the enemy we will kill him. We will show him no mercy. He has killed thousands of your comrades and he must die. If your company officers in leading your men against the enemy find him shooting at you and when you get within two hundred yards of him he wishes to surrender—oh no! That bastard will die! You will kill him. Stick him between the third and fourth ribs. You will tell your men that. They must have the killer instinct. Tell them to stick him. Stick him in the liver. We will get the name of killers and killers are immortal. When word reaches him that he is being faced by a killer battalion he will fight less. We must build up that name as killers.
That's the general Patton during WWII before the invasion of Sicily. He is referring to german & italian.
- (the massacre is) the main factor, and it was by the Jews, therefore the Jews started it and forced the poor arabs(arabs are the surounding countries btw) hands who only wanted peace - the Deir Yassin massacre pushed the OTHER COUNTRIES to war
How are those statements different other than i obviously used language to exaggerate with words like "poor arabs"?
As for the territorial motive, your just irrationally taking sides here, you have no bases for reasoning for believing the Jewish provoked the attack because they wanted more land, your example about the Deir Yassin village proves nothing. You then go on to say " is really important to understand that they were not pure victims", umm i never said they were pure victims, in fact i think quite a few times i think i said the jewish people committed many crimes during this conflict and both side were brutal. The point i'm trying to make is Israel deserved more sympathy as they are not the original aggressors. And i like the use of pure victims, are you implying you agree that Israel are the victims, just not purely? because if that's the case we are on the same page lol. The point about the event being able to establish independence and take land is irrelevant, it's like saying we took resources from Nazi Germany when we invaded and defeated them, so clearly our main motive was to take their natural resources and had nothing to do with them trying to ivnade us and kill all the Jews. When you win a war, you take stuff from other countries because you just beat them and you can, often because your land has been damaged from the war and needs to supplies, or often just for revenge, it doesn't prove motive.
And lastly your quote about General Patton just shows your total bias on the situation. The quote i gave was before the war, in fact a number of years before the war, it was one of the many anti semitic rants he used to broadcast on the radio. You also totally ignore my point about his ties to the nazi's and the final solution, like your conveniently ignoring of all the other history i talked about before the second war we are talking about.
A track record of committing atrocities and then LYING about it goes a long way towards whether we should give credibility to the IDF's latest claims of innosence.
The fact that they have lied so much in the past AND also in this incident is the reason why I have a very very hard time believing a single thing coming out of their mouth.
But you already know this. You already know how they stole all the evidence and how they are refusing an independent investigation to clear up the matter. I suspect you don't really care what the truth is because Israel must be defended no matter what.
Don't worry, the lies and misinformation activists tendsto sprout has done the same to me!
I dont think i fully understand what on earth you are talking about, but if you seriously support Israel then you must be some uninformed little lapp. Im not saying i support those activists on the boats cus they knew what they were getting themselves into but my point is that Israel time and time again breaks international laws; bombing hospitals, bombing UN-schools the list just goes on and on and every time they come with some lie to protect themselves, i dont hate jews i just hate israel.
Perhaps the reason why I support Israel is because I don't think they intentionally bomb schools*. Have you read about the peace talks at Camp David in 2000? Clinton Paremeters? I suggest you do and see how much Israel really wants peace and how little Palestine does.
I can't remember who said it, but it went something like this:
When Palestinians will love their children more than they hate Israel we shall have peace.
Well, maybe that's not entirely true. I'm sure a lot of Palestinians also want peace.
Do you know anything about the palestinian & Israelian history? Do you even read anything about Israel? If you did you should know that Israel were always the one who started the war... if they wanted peace, they would have tried something else before attacking the arabic nation during the 6 days war (and not respecting the warning of the europeans nations who told all the country to step back). If you did read anything, you should know that Israel also pushed the arabic nation to go to war during the first arabic-israeli war (1948) with some massacre like the massacre of Deir Yassin. I'm not anti israeli, but come one can't you accept that they also made some belligerant move ? Attacking a ship in the International waters is part of that.
A good proof of how your emotions are getting the best of you is the part I bolded. I have mentioned Benny Morris already in this thread, and if you haven't spend all your time reading nonsense like that Invention book, you should know that he hasn't been afraid to expose massacres commited by Israel. I am very well aware that Israel is not perfect. Oh and keep telling yourself that (that you're not anti-Israeli).
Lol keep telling yourself that you are not anti-palestinian. I know Benny Morris (I quoted some of his work just three post before), the Invention is also a book made by an israeli you know. I know full well that some israeli historian exposed the massacres comitted by Israel. What I'm saying is that the arabic country are not the only who are attacking. You are so pro israel that you cannot even respond to me about the fact that during all of the israel vs arab wars, Israel always had territory objectiv.
I'm more neutral than you are man. ;X
You should try inventing less and reading more.
1) I never stated I am not anti-Palestinian.
LoL ok, so you are an anti-palestinian, good to know who you are talking to.
2) Shlomo being an Israeli is neither news or an issue to me.
Cool, so ?
3) You have been explicitly stating that Israel has been the one attacking. I haven't seen you critize Arabs even once. Don't believe me? Look up what you've been writing and then attempt to provide me with a quote that disproves this. I dare you.
No please read me and put down the israeli google for a second: I try to prove that the arabic are not the only one who wanted war in almost all the conflict. My point is on Israel's meaning, if you want me to talk about arabs, then i will tell you. I think that radical islamism is a great threat at the moment, but israel is feeding it, just like Bush's US did. And yes, part of the arabic world want israel dead, that's a problem and most of the countries must assure their support to israel... BUT NOT LET THEM DO WHATEVER THEY WANT.
4) I am not sure what you mean? That they fought the wars only for territory? Or they wanted to grab land, especially after it came clear that they would win?
They wanted to grab land, so they were not victims: they had objectiv during almost all wars. It's hard for you to understand because you are so pro israeli than you cannot even read a good argument showing you that Israel were also attacking.
Please, try to post something more interesting. Nice to tell me to read when you have like 0 argument. Knowing Benny Morris name is not a big feat man.
You must be a racist then, right? (You never denied it.)
I don't know, you felt the need to point out that he's Israeli as if it made some difference to me. Of course you and I both know that it's because you assumed that I am defending all things Israeli.
Pretty much nobody, with perhaps one or two exceptions, has said that Arabs were the only ones who wanted war. In fact the opposite is quite true. Most have acknowledges Israel having its hands in the soup. But reading isn't as much fun as assuming.
Yeah, instead of continuing to call me pro-Israel, maybe you should just stop and admit that I actually never claimed what you thought I claimed; I have been admitting Israel's flaws many times. But that would make you look silly, now wouldn't it? But I do disagree about land being their sole objective in all the wars. For example, the 1948 war and the Six-Day war were also battles for survival. At least in the Israeli mind, for their fear about what would happen if they lost wa genuine. But no I don't really care to argue this. I have focused almost only at the past ten years, and that's what I'll continue to do.
Actually, mentioning his name was only supposed to show that you are dumb and wrong.
If you say that you will not deny that you are anti-palestinian, then you are.
You must be a racist then, right? (You never denied it.)
I never said I was not going to deny that i am racist if you were to say I am.
You read WELL GOOD FOR YOU, for all I care. I never stated that their territorial objectiv were their sole purpose for going to war, of course it was also a fight to survive in their head, more than that it was a fight to be free and to build their own country, which is respectable. Thanks for telling me that I am dumb, i will add that in my pokedex (which is a good feat for you). Seeing that you almost only posted in this thread (like 100 post lol) made me think are you paid by some extremist group to defend Israel?
Pretty much nobody, with perhaps one or two exceptions, has said that Arabs were the only ones who wanted war. In fact the opposite is quite true. Most have acknowledges Israel having its hands in the soup. But reading isn't as much fun as assumin
Do you even fallow the discussion? The other guy was telling exactly this like 10 post before you came up with your useless taunt.
edit: I edited all useless agression because it is unecessary and pretty childish. I apology myself to Squeezy, even if he thinks that I am dumb.
Interresting thread, crazy how every discussion about anything that happens in the middle east will eventually turn into a discussion about the history of israel.
On topic: It seems that oppinions on the floatilla boarding comes down to which sources you trust.
Which sources you trust comes down to where your 'loyalties' lie.
Personal attacks are not going to win any argument, they don't advance the conversation and make it painful to read, not to mention kill any sort of argument.
You all don't want to get this thread closed do you?
Ao_Jun
logical fallacy is to think majority is right. More to the point also that poll is to broad, for this topic.
It seems that oppinions on the floatilla boarding comes down to which sources you trust.
Which sources you trust comes down to where your 'loyalties' lie.
Don't worry, the lies and misinformation activists tendsto sprout has done the same to me!
I dont think i fully understand what on earth you are talking about, but if you seriously support Israel then you must be some uninformed little lapp. Im not saying i support those activists on the boats cus they knew what they were getting themselves into but my point is that Israel time and time again breaks international laws; bombing hospitals, bombing UN-schools the list just goes on and on and every time they come with some lie to protect themselves, i dont hate jews i just hate israel.
Perhaps the reason why I support Israel is because I don't think they intentionally bomb schools*. Have you read about the peace talks at Camp David in 2000? Clinton Paremeters? I suggest you do and see how much Israel really wants peace and how little Palestine does.
I can't remember who said it, but it went something like this:
When Palestinians will love their children more than they hate Israel we shall have peace.
Well, maybe that's not entirely true. I'm sure a lot of Palestinians also want peace.
Do you know anything about the palestinian & Israelian history? Do you even read anything about Israel? If you did you should know that Israel were always the one who started the war... if they wanted peace, they would have tried something else before attacking the arabic nation during the 6 days war (and not respecting the warning of the europeans nations who told all the country to step back). If you did read anything, you should know that Israel also pushed the arabic nation to go to war during the first arabic-israeli war (1948) with some massacre like the massacre of Deir Yassin. I'm not anti israeli, but come one can't you accept that they also made some belligerant move ? Attacking a ship in the International waters is part of that.
A good proof of how your emotions are getting the best of you is the part I bolded. I have mentioned Benny Morris already in this thread, and if you haven't spend all your time reading nonsense like that Invention book, you should know that he hasn't been afraid to expose massacres commited by Israel. I am very well aware that Israel is not perfect. Oh and keep telling yourself that (that you're not anti-Israeli).
Lol keep telling yourself that you are not anti-palestinian. I know Benny Morris (I quoted some of his work just three post before), the Invention is also a book made by an israeli you know. I know full well that some israeli historian exposed the massacres comitted by Israel. What I'm saying is that the arabic country are not the only who are attacking. You are so pro israel that you cannot even respond to me about the fact that during all of the israel vs arab wars, Israel always had territory objectiv.
I'm more neutral than you are man. ;X
You should try inventing less and reading more.
1) I never stated I am not anti-Palestinian.
LoL ok, so you are an anti-palestinian, good to know who you are talking to.
2) Shlomo being an Israeli is neither news or an issue to me.
Cool, so ?
3) You have been explicitly stating that Israel has been the one attacking. I haven't seen you critize Arabs even once. Don't believe me? Look up what you've been writing and then attempt to provide me with a quote that disproves this. I dare you.
No please read me and put down the israeli google for a second: I try to prove that the arabic are not the only one who wanted war in almost all the conflict. My point is on Israel's meaning, if you want me to talk about arabs, then i will tell you. I think that radical islamism is a great threat at the moment, but israel is feeding it, just like Bush's US did. And yes, part of the arabic world want israel dead, that's a problem and most of the countries must assure their support to israel... BUT NOT LET THEM DO WHATEVER THEY WANT.
4) I am not sure what you mean? That they fought the wars only for territory? Or they wanted to grab land, especially after it came clear that they would win?
They wanted to grab land, so they were not victims: they had objectiv during almost all wars. It's hard for you to understand because you are so pro israeli than you cannot even read a good argument showing you that Israel were also attacking.
Please, try to post something more interesting. Nice to tell me to read when you have like 0 argument. Knowing Benny Morris name is not a big feat man.
You must be a racist then, right? (You never denied it.)
I don't know, you felt the need to point out that he's Israeli as if it made some difference to me. Of course you and I both know that it's because you assumed that I am defending all things Israeli.
Pretty much nobody, with perhaps one or two exceptions, has said that Arabs were the only ones who wanted war. In fact the opposite is quite true. Most have acknowledges Israel having its hands in the soup. But reading isn't as much fun as assuming.
Yeah, instead of continuing to call me pro-Israel, maybe you should just stop and admit that I actually never claimed what you thought I claimed; I have been admitting Israel's flaws many times. But that would make you look silly, now wouldn't it? But I do disagree about land being their sole objective in all the wars. For example, the 1948 war and the Six-Day war were also battles for survival. At least in the Israeli mind, for their fear about what would happen if they lost wa genuine. But no I don't really care to argue this. I have focused almost only at the past ten years, and that's what I'll continue to do.
Actually, mentioning his name was only supposed to show that you are dumb and wrong.
Use your brain, if you say that you will not deny that you are anti-palestinian, then you are. All you do since the beginning is defending Israel. You read WELL GOOD FOR YOU, for all I care. I never stated that their territorial objectiv were their sole purpose for going to war, of course it was also a fight to survive in their head, more than that it was a fight to be free and to build their own country, which is respectable. Thanks for telling me that I am dumb, i will add that in my pokedex (which is a good feat for you). Seeing that you only posted in this thread make me think about how much of an idiot you are. Are you paid by some extremist group to defend Israel?
Pretty much nobody, with perhaps one or two exceptions, has said that Arabs were the only ones who wanted war. In fact the opposite is quite true. Most have acknowledges Israel having its hands in the soup. But reading isn't as much fun as assumin
Do you even fallow the discussion? The other guy was telling exactly this like 10 post before you came up with your useless taunt.
I didn't say I will not deny. I said I didn't deny. Big difference. Perhaps your English is the reason why you miss so much. And no, that is not all I've done. I can even show you quotes. Want me to do that? It seems to me like you're basically repeating to me all the accusations I made to you. But don't worry, I used to do that too. In kindergarten.
And that is true, you didn't, but you kept pushing that point alone, making it seem as if you think Israel's objective in the wars was (alone) land.
Yeah, which is why I said that there were exceptions...
On June 12 2010 06:21 angelicfolly wrote: Personal attacks are not going to win any argument, they don't advance the conversation and make it painful to read, not to mention kill any sort of argument.
You all don't want to get this thread closed do you?
Ao_Jun
logical fallacy is to think majority is right. More to the point also that poll is to broad, for this topic.
It seems that oppinions on the floatilla boarding comes down to which sources you trust.
Which sources you trust comes down to where your 'loyalties' lie.
That's kinda basically true.
No, I don't want this to be closed, but the continuous misrepresentation of my position as well as the ridiculous claims that I and us are biased while they are objective haven't really been making me feel productive. But I'll try now, because I've been reading some eyewitness statements and they seem quite conflicting.
On June 12 2010 01:59 Roflhaxx wrote: [quote] I dont think i fully understand what on earth you are talking about, but if you seriously support Israel then you must be some uninformed little lapp. Im not saying i support those activists on the boats cus they knew what they were getting themselves into but my point is that Israel time and time again breaks international laws; bombing hospitals, bombing UN-schools the list just goes on and on and every time they come with some lie to protect themselves, i dont hate jews i just hate israel.
Perhaps the reason why I support Israel is because I don't think they intentionally bomb schools*. Have you read about the peace talks at Camp David in 2000? Clinton Paremeters? I suggest you do and see how much Israel really wants peace and how little Palestine does.
I can't remember who said it, but it went something like this:
When Palestinians will love their children more than they hate Israel we shall have peace.
Well, maybe that's not entirely true. I'm sure a lot of Palestinians also want peace.
Do you know anything about the palestinian & Israelian history? Do you even read anything about Israel? If you did you should know that Israel were always the one who started the war... if they wanted peace, they would have tried something else before attacking the arabic nation during the 6 days war (and not respecting the warning of the europeans nations who told all the country to step back). If you did read anything, you should know that Israel also pushed the arabic nation to go to war during the first arabic-israeli war (1948) with some massacre like the massacre of Deir Yassin. I'm not anti israeli, but come one can't you accept that they also made some belligerant move ? Attacking a ship in the International waters is part of that.
A good proof of how your emotions are getting the best of you is the part I bolded. I have mentioned Benny Morris already in this thread, and if you haven't spend all your time reading nonsense like that Invention book, you should know that he hasn't been afraid to expose massacres commited by Israel. I am very well aware that Israel is not perfect. Oh and keep telling yourself that (that you're not anti-Israeli).
Lol keep telling yourself that you are not anti-palestinian. I know Benny Morris (I quoted some of his work just three post before), the Invention is also a book made by an israeli you know. I know full well that some israeli historian exposed the massacres comitted by Israel. What I'm saying is that the arabic country are not the only who are attacking. You are so pro israel that you cannot even respond to me about the fact that during all of the israel vs arab wars, Israel always had territory objectiv.
I'm more neutral than you are man. ;X
You should try inventing less and reading more.
1) I never stated I am not anti-Palestinian.
LoL ok, so you are an anti-palestinian, good to know who you are talking to.
2) Shlomo being an Israeli is neither news or an issue to me.
Cool, so ?
3) You have been explicitly stating that Israel has been the one attacking. I haven't seen you critize Arabs even once. Don't believe me? Look up what you've been writing and then attempt to provide me with a quote that disproves this. I dare you.
No please read me and put down the israeli google for a second: I try to prove that the arabic are not the only one who wanted war in almost all the conflict. My point is on Israel's meaning, if you want me to talk about arabs, then i will tell you. I think that radical islamism is a great threat at the moment, but israel is feeding it, just like Bush's US did. And yes, part of the arabic world want israel dead, that's a problem and most of the countries must assure their support to israel... BUT NOT LET THEM DO WHATEVER THEY WANT.
4) I am not sure what you mean? That they fought the wars only for territory? Or they wanted to grab land, especially after it came clear that they would win?
They wanted to grab land, so they were not victims: they had objectiv during almost all wars. It's hard for you to understand because you are so pro israeli than you cannot even read a good argument showing you that Israel were also attacking.
Please, try to post something more interesting. Nice to tell me to read when you have like 0 argument. Knowing Benny Morris name is not a big feat man.
You must be a racist then, right? (You never denied it.)
I don't know, you felt the need to point out that he's Israeli as if it made some difference to me. Of course you and I both know that it's because you assumed that I am defending all things Israeli.
Pretty much nobody, with perhaps one or two exceptions, has said that Arabs were the only ones who wanted war. In fact the opposite is quite true. Most have acknowledges Israel having its hands in the soup. But reading isn't as much fun as assuming.
Yeah, instead of continuing to call me pro-Israel, maybe you should just stop and admit that I actually never claimed what you thought I claimed; I have been admitting Israel's flaws many times. But that would make you look silly, now wouldn't it? But I do disagree about land being their sole objective in all the wars. For example, the 1948 war and the Six-Day war were also battles for survival. At least in the Israeli mind, for their fear about what would happen if they lost wa genuine. But no I don't really care to argue this. I have focused almost only at the past ten years, and that's what I'll continue to do.
Actually, mentioning his name was only supposed to show that you are dumb and wrong.
Use your brain, if you say that you will not deny that you are anti-palestinian, then you are. All you do since the beginning is defending Israel. You read WELL GOOD FOR YOU, for all I care. I never stated that their territorial objectiv were their sole purpose for going to war, of course it was also a fight to survive in their head, more than that it was a fight to be free and to build their own country, which is respectable. Thanks for telling me that I am dumb, i will add that in my pokedex (which is a good feat for you). Seeing that you only posted in this thread make me think about how much of an idiot you are. Are you paid by some extremist group to defend Israel?
Pretty much nobody, with perhaps one or two exceptions, has said that Arabs were the only ones who wanted war. In fact the opposite is quite true. Most have acknowledges Israel having its hands in the soup. But reading isn't as much fun as assumin
Do you even fallow the discussion? The other guy was telling exactly this like 10 post before you came up with your useless taunt.
I didn't say I will not deny. I said I didn't deny. Big difference. Perhaps your English is the reason why you miss so much. And no, that is not all I've done. I can even show you quotes. Want me to do that? It seems to me like you're basically repeating to me all the accusations I made to you. But don't worry, I used to do that too. In kindergarten.
And that is true, you didn't, but you kept pushing that point alone, making it seem as if you think Israel's objective in the wars was (alone) land.
Yeah, which is why I said that there were exceptions...
In the end, what's your point in coming and taunting me, my english and everything? I used to do that too, "in kindergarten". And I also used to attack my opponent and not his argument when I was not enough intelligent to build good argument myself. You didn't deny, so you are, the difference is in your head (or maybe in our traduction of "didn't").
And lastly your quote about General Patton just shows your total bias on the situation. The quote i gave was before the war, in fact a number of years before the war, it was one of the many anti semitic rants he used to broadcast on the radio. You also totally ignore my point about his ties to the nazi's and the final solution, like your conveniently ignoring of all the other history i talked about before the second war we are talking about.
I ignored all that point because they were irrelevant. It's well known that they were some people linked with the nazis in the US and in Europe. It does not means that all european & US citizens want Israel down. Before the war or after, isn't it the same? he is trying to push his people to war. What does it means? I can quote you an Israeli prime minister saying that there was no massacre in Deir Yassin and that it was a good intervention. I will not quote it since I'm not as low as you. Of course, saying that Israel deserve much sympathi is not biased. That's your point of view, stop trying to tell us it's some historical fact. Some palestinians want Israel to burn, it's true. Some Israelis want to kill almost all muslim. But almost a third of the Jewish "people" wanted a country called "Israel" and made war for it. And they wanted it way before WWII
As long as deep within the heart The Jewish soul is warm And toward the edges of the east An eye to Zion looks Our hope is not yet lost, The hope of two thousand years To be a free people in our own land In the land of Zion and Jerusalem. To be a free people in our own land In the land of Zion and Jerusalem.
Well, let's go deeper into Palestinian history. Back to the British mandate it was a civil war. The big part of the population (at the time 80% or so were muslim) refused the immigration of jews. So yes, they made some massacre like the Hebron incident. On the same time, the British greatly helped the Jews, letting them make an army (the Haghana) and desarming the Arabs (about 1500 guns were took from them). When the UN decided to look into this mess, they divided the land but they let too much land to the jews considering they weight as a people (at the time with 32% of the population, the Jews get 52% of the territory). The Arabs refused the UN decision and the civil war started again. Who's wrong, who's right? The jews wanted a land, the Arabs were stolen and tried to defend themselves. Both a legitim in my point of view. You cannot just clean all that conflict by just pointing the fact that some Arabs were antisemitics. What makes the Arabs more legitime in my point of view is that after the start of the civil war, there was some massacre (like the Deir Yassin massacre) and some military plan like the Plan Dalet which had the objectiv to make the arabs flee and, hopefully, expand the new state of Israel.
Perhaps the reason why I support Israel is because I don't think they intentionally bomb schools*. Have you read about the peace talks at Camp David in 2000? Clinton Paremeters? I suggest you do and see how much Israel really wants peace and how little Palestine does.
I can't remember who said it, but it went something like this:
When Palestinians will love their children more than they hate Israel we shall have peace.
Well, maybe that's not entirely true. I'm sure a lot of Palestinians also want peace.
Do you know anything about the palestinian & Israelian history? Do you even read anything about Israel? If you did you should know that Israel were always the one who started the war... if they wanted peace, they would have tried something else before attacking the arabic nation during the 6 days war (and not respecting the warning of the europeans nations who told all the country to step back). If you did read anything, you should know that Israel also pushed the arabic nation to go to war during the first arabic-israeli war (1948) with some massacre like the massacre of Deir Yassin. I'm not anti israeli, but come one can't you accept that they also made some belligerant move ? Attacking a ship in the International waters is part of that.
A good proof of how your emotions are getting the best of you is the part I bolded. I have mentioned Benny Morris already in this thread, and if you haven't spend all your time reading nonsense like that Invention book, you should know that he hasn't been afraid to expose massacres commited by Israel. I am very well aware that Israel is not perfect. Oh and keep telling yourself that (that you're not anti-Israeli).
Lol keep telling yourself that you are not anti-palestinian. I know Benny Morris (I quoted some of his work just three post before), the Invention is also a book made by an israeli you know. I know full well that some israeli historian exposed the massacres comitted by Israel. What I'm saying is that the arabic country are not the only who are attacking. You are so pro israel that you cannot even respond to me about the fact that during all of the israel vs arab wars, Israel always had territory objectiv.
I'm more neutral than you are man. ;X
You should try inventing less and reading more.
1) I never stated I am not anti-Palestinian.
LoL ok, so you are an anti-palestinian, good to know who you are talking to.
2) Shlomo being an Israeli is neither news or an issue to me.
Cool, so ?
3) You have been explicitly stating that Israel has been the one attacking. I haven't seen you critize Arabs even once. Don't believe me? Look up what you've been writing and then attempt to provide me with a quote that disproves this. I dare you.
No please read me and put down the israeli google for a second: I try to prove that the arabic are not the only one who wanted war in almost all the conflict. My point is on Israel's meaning, if you want me to talk about arabs, then i will tell you. I think that radical islamism is a great threat at the moment, but israel is feeding it, just like Bush's US did. And yes, part of the arabic world want israel dead, that's a problem and most of the countries must assure their support to israel... BUT NOT LET THEM DO WHATEVER THEY WANT.
4) I am not sure what you mean? That they fought the wars only for territory? Or they wanted to grab land, especially after it came clear that they would win?
They wanted to grab land, so they were not victims: they had objectiv during almost all wars. It's hard for you to understand because you are so pro israeli than you cannot even read a good argument showing you that Israel were also attacking.
Please, try to post something more interesting. Nice to tell me to read when you have like 0 argument. Knowing Benny Morris name is not a big feat man.
You must be a racist then, right? (You never denied it.)
I don't know, you felt the need to point out that he's Israeli as if it made some difference to me. Of course you and I both know that it's because you assumed that I am defending all things Israeli.
Pretty much nobody, with perhaps one or two exceptions, has said that Arabs were the only ones who wanted war. In fact the opposite is quite true. Most have acknowledges Israel having its hands in the soup. But reading isn't as much fun as assuming.
Yeah, instead of continuing to call me pro-Israel, maybe you should just stop and admit that I actually never claimed what you thought I claimed; I have been admitting Israel's flaws many times. But that would make you look silly, now wouldn't it? But I do disagree about land being their sole objective in all the wars. For example, the 1948 war and the Six-Day war were also battles for survival. At least in the Israeli mind, for their fear about what would happen if they lost wa genuine. But no I don't really care to argue this. I have focused almost only at the past ten years, and that's what I'll continue to do.
Actually, mentioning his name was only supposed to show that you are dumb and wrong.
Use your brain, if you say that you will not deny that you are anti-palestinian, then you are. All you do since the beginning is defending Israel. You read WELL GOOD FOR YOU, for all I care. I never stated that their territorial objectiv were their sole purpose for going to war, of course it was also a fight to survive in their head, more than that it was a fight to be free and to build their own country, which is respectable. Thanks for telling me that I am dumb, i will add that in my pokedex (which is a good feat for you). Seeing that you only posted in this thread make me think about how much of an idiot you are. Are you paid by some extremist group to defend Israel?
Pretty much nobody, with perhaps one or two exceptions, has said that Arabs were the only ones who wanted war. In fact the opposite is quite true. Most have acknowledges Israel having its hands in the soup. But reading isn't as much fun as assumin
Do you even fallow the discussion? The other guy was telling exactly this like 10 post before you came up with your useless taunt.
I didn't say I will not deny. I said I didn't deny. Big difference. Perhaps your English is the reason why you miss so much. And no, that is not all I've done. I can even show you quotes. Want me to do that? It seems to me like you're basically repeating to me all the accusations I made to you. But don't worry, I used to do that too. In kindergarten.
And that is true, you didn't, but you kept pushing that point alone, making it seem as if you think Israel's objective in the wars was (alone) land.
Yeah, which is why I said that there were exceptions...
In the end, what's your point in coming and taunting me, my english and everything? I used to do that too, "in kindergarten". And I also used to attack my opponent and not his argument when I was not enough intelligent to build good argument myself. You didn't deny, so you are, the difference is in your head (or maybe in our traduction of "didn't").
And you didn't deny being a racist, so you are a racist. And a buffoon from Mars. Not to mention many other things!
Anyway to the eyewitnesses! I'll start with these three quotes:
Al Jazeera journalist Jamal Elshayyal, aboard the Mavi Marmara, said "the first shots that were fired were either some sort of sound grenades...there was tear gas that was fired, as well as rubber-coated steel bullets...the live fire came roughly five minutes after that."[90] He continued that "one of the passengers who was on the side of the deck holding a water hose, trying to hose off, if you will, the advancing Israeli Navy, was shot in his arm..."[90] He stated, "There is no doubt from what I saw that live ammunition was fired before any Israeli soldier was on deck."[90] and that two persons were shot and killed before the soldiers had started boarding. According to Elshayyal, three persons also died while passengers including a Knesset member, tried in vain to make the soldiers help the wounded.[90]
Writer Edda Manga said five of the activists died directly while the rest died because they were denied medical treatment.[120] Egyptian MP Hazem Farouq,[121] British activist Sarah Colborne,[122] Turkish activist Nilüfer Ören,[123] Al-Jazeera cameraman Issam Zaatar,[121] and Turkish author Sinan Albayrak[124] were also among those who confirmed in their statements that the Israeli soldiers did not allow the critically wounded to receive immediate medical assistance.
Flotilla proponents and Turkish charity group leaders said that since the ships were on international waters, "even if we had used guns", abandoning the non-violence principle would still be legal as self-defense from Israeli "kidnapping" and "piracy".[125][126] Prof. Mattias Gardell who was on-board stated that the soldiers came on-board with sharp loaded weapons with laser sights and at least four persons were killed execution style.[127]
Anyway, so we have Nine killed in total. Four killed execution style. Two were shot and killed (before the commandos landed) by helicopters. Three bled to death. Then again someone says that only five died directly.
Execution style kill means something like a close-range kill. Therefore the helicopter kills are different to the execution style kills. They also died before the commandos landed, so the kills have to be instant. I think it's safe to assume that execution style kills were instant too. We have 10 dead people. But only 9 were confirmedly killed. At the very least there seems to be controversy with the claim that two activists were killed from the helicopters.
The activists have claimed that six people are missing. But no names or anything have been released. No families have said their relatives are missing. Strikes me as weird.
According to the captain of the Mavi Marmara, Mehmut Tuval, the activists aboard the ship "were preparing to violence against the [Israeli] soldiers."[111] He noticed that the activists were cutting chains and steel off of the ship using rotary saws (which were not part of the ship's equipment) roughly two hours before the IDF came aboard. He asked his chief officer to collect weapons the activists were planning on using and dispose of them into the sea.
We also have numerous eyewitnesses claiming that there was no resistance or that it wasn't organised. (I'm simply too lazy to quote any statements here, but you can find links in wikipedia. But if I absolutely must, I can find them myself.) But on the other hand we have this:
"The defense of the boat was quite well organized," said Espen Goffeng, a 38-year-old activist from Norway who sailed aboard the Mavi Marmara. "There was a plan to keep soldiers off the boat."
Another interesting aspect to consider are the bullets. According to the Turkish doctor who did the autopsies, all but one bullet were 9mm (he doesn't specify what the other bullet was). I am trying to figure out what weapons the IDF commandos were using and I would love to know what was the one odd bullet.
I got tired and lazy. I'll continue tomorrow. Probably.
On June 04 2010 01:21 beetlejuice wrote: "We told the Indonesian doctor to take the soldier back. He took his patient back, and as he was going back, they shot him 5 times in the stomach,"
One of the dead was 19-year-old boy Furkan Doğan, a Turkish citizen with an american passport. State-run Anatolia news agency said he was hit by four bullets in the head and one in the chest.
On June 04 2010 01:30 Squeegy wrote:
What possible motivation could there be for this to happen? I really can't imagine any and that is why I find this so very hard to believe.
JERUSALEM — Israel's government decided Sunday to draw up a list of items banned from Gaza limited to weapons and materials deemed to have military uses and said the easing of the three-year-old blockade of the Palestinian territory would be implemented immediately.
The list of banned goods replaces an old list of allowed items that permitted only basic humanitarian supplies for the 1.5 million Gazans. Under the new system, the government said practically all non-military items can enter Gaza freely.
"From now on, there is a green light of approval for all goods to enter Gaza except for military items and materials that can strengthen Hamas' military machine," Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev said.
Major development:
In a critical shift, Israel said it would allow construction materials into Gaza for projects approved by the Palestinian Authority, such as housing and schools, as long as the projects are under international supervision. Up to now, Israel has banned most construction materials, including cement.
Construction materials are a critical need in Gaza. Thousands of buildings were destroyed or damaged in Israel's military operation in Gaza a year and a half ago, aimed at stopping years of daily rocket attacks by Gaza militants. Because of the blockade, little repair or rebuilding has been done since the war ended.
On June 04 2010 01:21 beetlejuice wrote: "We told the Indonesian doctor to take the soldier back. He took his patient back, and as he was going back, they shot him 5 times in the stomach,"
One of the dead was 19-year-old boy Furkan Doğan, a Turkish citizen with an american passport. State-run Anatolia news agency said he was hit by four bullets in the head and one in the chest.
Yes, that video was posted a while ago already. But hey, reposts are always cool!
Here's a NEW video though:
I'm sad the Flotilla Retards were succesful in so many ways. Those who wanted became martys, Israeli is being heavily critized all around the world, and now even the blockade is practically lifted. Oh well, every cloud has a silver lining they say: the Gaza blockade probably needed to become less strict.
The report of the fact-finding mission of the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) on the Israeli attack on the Gaza flotilla released last week shows conclusively, for the first time, that US citizen Furkan Dogan and five Turkish citizens were murdered execution-style by Israeli commandos.
The report reveals that Dogan, the 19-year-old US citizen of Turkish descent, was filming with a small video camera on the top deck of the Mavi Marmara when he was shot twice in the head, once in the back and in the left leg and foot and that he was shot in the face at point blank range while lying on the ground.
The report says Dogan had apparently been "lying on the deck in a conscious or semi-conscious, state for some time" before being shot in his face.
The report of the fact-finding mission of the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) on the Israeli attack on the Gaza flotilla released last week shows conclusively, for the first time, that US citizen Furkan Dogan and five Turkish citizens were murdered execution-style by Israeli commandos.
The report reveals that Dogan, the 19-year-old US citizen of Turkish descent, was filming with a small video camera on the top deck of the Mavi Marmara when he was shot twice in the head, once in the back and in the left leg and foot and that he was shot in the face at point blank range while lying on the ground.
The report says Dogan had apparently been "lying on the deck in a conscious or semi-conscious, state for some time" before being shot in his face.
Channel 10 said the final death toll could be higher as Navy commandos who boarded the convoy were still conducting searches and encountering often violent resistance from pro-Palestinian activists.
EPT
