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On June 11 2010 23:54 UdderChaos wrote:
I don't understand the double standard people seem to have when it comes to Israel. How many people have got away with literal murder in past wars? How many IRA terrorists who killed innocent civilians in cold blood were freed in the good Friday agreement, how many of the Nazi soldiers were held accountable for the worst genocide of a race in history? How many of the men who used white phosphorus on the US side in the war in Iraq were held accountable? how many of the Vietnam and Korean war crimes committed by the US were properly investigated and proper punishment given out? Who was held accountable for the Dresden bombings carried out by the allied forces? When was J. Robert Oppenheimer sentenced to death for creating the worst weapon of all time, and being responsible for the death of 250,000 Japanese?
Please demonstrate where I have claimed that it is okay for other countries to get away with murder or criminal action? If you are going to accuse me of having double standards then please back up this accusation. Otherwise it's just straw man and pointless "whataboutry." There will always be other crimes and bigger crimes and worse criminals, no matter the situation. That does not justify Israel's behaviour and cannot be used as an argument in defence of it.
As to the issue of amnesty for IRA fighters. I imagine that if Israel were to withdraw to 1967 borders and Israel and Hamas were to make peace, that a case for amnesty could be made for BOTH sides in the interests of furthering peace, as repulsive as I would find that personally. Similarly many Irish republicans were repulsed at the idea of amnesty for Unionist fighters and vice versa.
The point is war is ugly, it's naive to think otherwise. Even the "good sides" in war commit atrocities. Finding one account of a child of 13 being killed in cold blood without much repercussion, as shocking as it is, doesn't prove anything.
Maybe you should read back a few posts and see the example and argument that I was trying to refute with this example. I suspect you are taking my argument out of context. The point is that it is not just one incident, it is every incident, time and time again.
As war is pretty stupid and no side is totally good, both commit mass murder, all you can do is sympathize with one side more than the other, usually based upon mercy and intentions, and although the 13 year old girl incident doesn't seem merciful it's hardly genocide. Which side is worth sympathizing with is usually to do with what each individual perceives as "going too far", which is difficult to judge when murder in war is not considered "going to far", where do you draw the line?
Absolutely, it's all down to our perception. And in my perception neither Hamas NOR the Israeli government are better or worse. Both commit atrocities and both have repeatedly shown a blatant disregard for human life. Yet one is considered to be a terrorist organisation and the other receives record aid and weapons from the US. When Hamas commits a crime or launches rockets, the punishment for that is inflicted on the ENTIRE 1.5 million civilian population of Gaza. Yet when Israel kills civilians or aid workers or journalists we cannot even have a fair and open investigation to determine if they did anything wrong, nevermind hold them to justice. You speak of double standards. I believe THIS double standard is the reason why so many people around the world are outraged specifically against Israel, because of the impunity with which it can act and continues to act. And whatever way you look at it, it's hard to ignore the physical evidence of the palestinian people being pushed into smaller and smaller corners of land.
Where in 1947 the land between Israel and Palestine was split 56% Israel and 44% Palestine, to 2006 where it is 87% Israel and 13% Palestine.
i accept i don't fully understand the situation, but i can't help feeling sorry for Israel, as it does seem like certain people in surrounding countries basically want to kill all the Jews, and because of their religious fanaticism you can't tell them any different. I understand this isn't the only reason, i realize that Israel has provoked other countries around them, but there still is that element, that's why i feel like they are the most worthy of my sympathy in the whole situation. Well that's how i see it anyways.
I agree that it is a complex situation, but a large part of the problem does seem to be this double standard where Israel is seen as peaceful and democratic and everyone else as a fanatical terrorist. The reality is that Israel has acted just as fanatically and is slowly but surely wiping out the palestinian people, and unless something is done, I believe that in 50 years, Palestine will just be a footnote in history.
I hope that I've outlined why my sympathy lies with the people of Palestine. I don't really have a dog to pick in this race. I've no particular affinity towards arabs, or any other religion, my own background is from neither culture. But I've taken a lot of time to educate myself beyond what is presented in just the mainstream media (and my impression is that American mainstream media is horribly myopic on this issue), and I feel that Israel's rhetoric of secular, peaceful democracy doesn't stand up in light of its actions.
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On June 12 2010 01:26 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2010 23:54 UdderChaos wrote:On June 11 2010 22:49 Klaz wrote:On June 11 2010 21:26 Ao_Jun wrote:
About the child killing accident:
I don't know what your point is, if it is that a man killing a child is wrong then you're right, but that is not nearly isolated to israel. If it's the lack of punishment then i think you have to consider that prosecuting a man following orders might be different from prosecuting a civilian..
If you are trying to catch someone in a lie, then i think you are taking it too literally, i think the point is that israel is not systematically trying to exterminate palestinian children, and is even trying to avoid civilian casualties, which is not disproven by an isolated inccident.
I think people are underestimating how hard it is to fight a war when your enemy is hidden among civilians. (As has been pointed out, I was refuting a very specific issue which BlackJack has to articulately conveyed) The problem is that there is a pattern to these incidents. 1. Break international law/disregard civilian lives/stamp out freedom of the press by killing reporters and destroying their equipment 2. Make claims to justify actions. Claims that range from outright denial to inevitably some from of blame the victim. 3. When claim is shown to be an obvious falsehood simply make more claims. 4. Eventually hold an investigation without any independent scrutiny in which no one is held accountable and Israel takes no blame for its actions. 5. Rinse and repeat. This happens every single time and has happened again in this flotilla incident. And until and unless the IDF is held to account for it's actions in a criminal court Israeli soldiers will continue to show flagrant disregard for human life. Excuses might be made for why an Israeli Commander shot an killed a completely innocent 13 year old girl in cold blood. But excuses cannot be made as to why this individual was allowed to escape with what amounted to little more than a slap on the wrist. And it is the unwillingness of the Israeli government to hold itself or its military to accountable for any wrong doing that is most damning. Or to put it another way, if a Hamas fighter had shot a 13 year old Israeli girl, and then walked up to her and executed her as she lay helpless on the ground. Would any Israeli citizen, OR those who defend the actions of the IDF time and time again accept that adequate punishment would be "illegal use of his weapon, conduct unbecoming an officer and other relatively minor infractions."? Who was held to account for the use of White Phosphorous in Gaza? Who was held to account for shooting dead a British journalist? The list goes on. In fact the ONLY time there was an independent investigation into the IDF's behaviour they were found guilty of war crimes. Yet we have Israeli supporters here, telling us with a straight face that there is no need for an independent investigation into the killing of 9 civilians on a humanitarian vessel in international waters. I don't understand the double standard people seem to have when it comes to Israel. How many people have got away with literal murder in past wars? How many IRA terrorists who killed innocent civilians in cold blood were freed in the good Friday agreement, how many of the Nazi soldiers were held accountable for the worst genocide of a race in history? How many of the men who used white phosphorus on the US side in the war in Iraq were held accountable? how many of the Vietnam and Korean war crimes committed by the US were properly investigated and proper punishment given out? Who was held accountable for the Dresden bombings carried out by the allied forces? When was J. Robert Oppenheimer sentenced to death for creating the worst weapon of all time, and being responsible for the death of 250,000 Japanese? The point is war is ugly, it's naive to think otherwise. Even the "good sides" in war commit atrocities. Finding one account of a child of 13 being killed in cold blood without much repercussion, as shocking as it is, doesn't prove anything. As war is pretty stupid and no side is totally good, both commit mass murder, all you can do is sympathize with one side more than the other, usually based upon mercy and intentions, and although the 13 year old girl incident doesn't seem merciful it's hardly genocide. Which side is worth sympathizing with is usually to do with what each individual perceives as "going too far", which is difficult to judge when murder in war is not considered "going to far", where do you draw the line? I think the key is in the reasons for the violence, for example the taliban's reason for starting a war, and then doing 9/11 isn't self defense, while world war 2 was the allies defending themselves, and Dresden was losing sight of what they were doing along the way, and venting emotional revenge and anger at the opponent. In the Israel Gaza situation i think it's less clear cut, we fucked up after world war 2 setting up Israel and basically kicking out the Palestinians, and it's not exactly the Israelites fault, as we offered something to them that we basically stole from someone else. Now you can argue all day about whether what i said is wrong and who's fault it is that the war started, and i could be wrong, i accept i don't fully understand the situation, but i can't help feeling sorry for Israel, as it does seem like certain people in surrounding countries basically want to kill all the Jews, and because of their religious fanaticism you can't tell them any different. I understand this isn't the only reason, i realize that Israel has provoked other countries around them, but there still is that element, that's why i feel like they are the most worthy of my sympathy in the whole situation. Well that's how i see it anyways. The fact that other people throughout history have gotten away with murder is not a very good excuse for getting away with murder. Comparing the Israel-Palestine conflict to other wars, particularly ww2, is a bit of a stretch. WW2 had millions of casualties with civilian populations contributing to the war effort and atrocities from all sides. During the Second Intifada the IDF had 330 casualties, and that was a 5 year conflict. The mideast conflict is more of an occupation than a war. Israel has 1000x the military capabilities of the Palestinians and could wipe them off the planet any time they want to. The only thing that stops them from wiping out the Palestinians and further extending their borders is that peopple are watching. We don't need the people watching, like you, to start saying "well war is ugly, I'm not too concerned about a random war crime here and there." Btw, what does war being ugly have anything to do with an incident in international waters aboard a ship of a country that you're not at war with, and passengers who are citizens of a country you are not at war with? Unless Israel declared war on flotillas, this has nothing to do with war and therefore should be fully investigated just like any other international incident.
How about we are not even discussing the Flotilla here but IDF's "reputation" of killing civilians? You don't have to go farther than Iraq and Afghanistan to find these cases. And the point never was that it's okay, the point was that Israel is not an exception as this is not very unusual during wars.
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On June 12 2010 01:38 Squeegy wrote:
How about we are not even discussing the Flotilla here but IDF's "reputation" of killing civilians? You don't have to go farther than Iraq and Afghanistan to find these cases. And the point never was that it's okay, the point was that Israel is not an exception as this is very common during wars.
A track record of committing atrocities and then LYING about it goes a long way towards whether we should give credibility to the IDF's latest claims of innosence.
The fact that they have lied so much in the past AND also in this incident is the reason why I have a very very hard time believing a single thing coming out of their mouth.
But you already know this. You already know how they stole all the evidence and how they are refusing an independent investigation to clear up the matter. I suspect you don't really care what the truth is because Israel must be defended no matter what.
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On June 12 2010 01:42 Klaz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 01:38 Squeegy wrote:
How about we are not even discussing the Flotilla here but IDF's "reputation" of killing civilians? You don't have to go farther than Iraq and Afghanistan to find these cases. And the point never was that it's okay, the point was that Israel is not an exception as this is very common during wars. A track record of committing atrocities and then LYING about it goes a long way towards whether we should give credibility to the IDF's latest claims of innosence. The fact that they have lied so much in the past AND also in this incident is the reason why I have a very very hard time believing a single thing coming out of their mouth. But you already know this. You already know how they stole all the evidence and how they are refusing an independent investigation to clear up the matter. I suspect you don't really care what the truth is because Israel must be defended no matter what.
Don't worry, the lies and misinformation activists tendsto sprout has done the same to me!
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On June 12 2010 01:49 Squeegy wrote:
Don't worry, the lies and misinformation activists tendsto sprout has done the same to me!
How many people have the activists killed? How many international laws have they broken? How many of the activists refuse to participate in an independent enquiry to establish the truth?
The fact that you keep ignoring these basic realities
The fact that you equate the smallest inconsistancies in the stories of 600 individuals who were not all at the same physical location with the calculated lies of a military organisation....
The fact that you make excuse after excuse for every single crime (notice, I have NOT ONCE tried to justify any wrong doing by Hamas).
The fact that you deflect, deny, apologise. Seriously.... what kind of person.... I'm done with you man.
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On June 12 2010 01:49 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 01:42 Klaz wrote:On June 12 2010 01:38 Squeegy wrote:
How about we are not even discussing the Flotilla here but IDF's "reputation" of killing civilians? You don't have to go farther than Iraq and Afghanistan to find these cases. And the point never was that it's okay, the point was that Israel is not an exception as this is very common during wars. A track record of committing atrocities and then LYING about it goes a long way towards whether we should give credibility to the IDF's latest claims of innosence. The fact that they have lied so much in the past AND also in this incident is the reason why I have a very very hard time believing a single thing coming out of their mouth. But you already know this. You already know how they stole all the evidence and how they are refusing an independent investigation to clear up the matter. I suspect you don't really care what the truth is because Israel must be defended no matter what. Don't worry, the lies and misinformation activists tendsto sprout has done the same to me!
I dont think i fully understand what on earth you are talking about, but if you seriously support Israel then you must be some uninformed little lapp. Im not saying i support those activists on the boats cus they knew what they were getting themselves into but my point is that Israel time and time again breaks international laws; bombing hospitals, bombing UN-schools the list just goes on and on and every time they come with some lie to protect themselves, i dont hate jews i just hate israel.
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On June 12 2010 01:57 Klaz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 01:49 Squeegy wrote:
Don't worry, the lies and misinformation activists tendsto sprout has done the same to me! How many people have the activists killed? How many international laws have they broken? How many of the activists refuse to participate in an independent enquiry to establish the truth? The fact that you keep ignoring these basic realities The fact that you equate the smallest inconsistancies in the stories of 600 individuals who were not all at the same physical location with the calculated lies of a military organisation.... The fact that you make excuse after excuse for every single crime (notice, I have NOT ONCE tried to justify any wrong doing by Hamas). The fact that you deflect, deny, apologise. Seriously.... what kind of person.... I'm done with you man.
But I thought we were discussing about a history of lies. But you never were very consistent in what you spoke anyway. Enjoy the activist blogs as a source of information! Ta-ta!
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On June 12 2010 01:59 Roflhaxx wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 01:49 Squeegy wrote:On June 12 2010 01:42 Klaz wrote:On June 12 2010 01:38 Squeegy wrote:
How about we are not even discussing the Flotilla here but IDF's "reputation" of killing civilians? You don't have to go farther than Iraq and Afghanistan to find these cases. And the point never was that it's okay, the point was that Israel is not an exception as this is very common during wars. A track record of committing atrocities and then LYING about it goes a long way towards whether we should give credibility to the IDF's latest claims of innosence. The fact that they have lied so much in the past AND also in this incident is the reason why I have a very very hard time believing a single thing coming out of their mouth. But you already know this. You already know how they stole all the evidence and how they are refusing an independent investigation to clear up the matter. I suspect you don't really care what the truth is because Israel must be defended no matter what. Don't worry, the lies and misinformation activists tendsto sprout has done the same to me! I dont think i fully understand what on earth you are talking about, but if you seriously support Israel then you must be some uninformed little lapp. Im not saying i support those activists on the boats cus they knew what they were getting themselves into but my point is that Israel time and time again breaks international laws; bombing hospitals, bombing UN-schools the list just goes on and on and every time they come with some lie to protect themselves, i dont hate jews i just hate israel.
Perhaps the reason why I support Israel is because I don't think they intentionally bomb schools*.
Have you read about the peace talks at Camp David in 2000? Clinton Paremeters? I suggest you do and see how much Israel really wants peace and how little Palestine does.
I can't remember who said it, but it went something like this:
When Palestinians will love their children more than they hate Israel we shall have peace.
Well, maybe that's not entirely true. I'm sure a lot of Palestinians also want peace.
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United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On June 12 2010 02:12 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 01:59 Roflhaxx wrote:On June 12 2010 01:49 Squeegy wrote:On June 12 2010 01:42 Klaz wrote:On June 12 2010 01:38 Squeegy wrote:
How about we are not even discussing the Flotilla here but IDF's "reputation" of killing civilians? You don't have to go farther than Iraq and Afghanistan to find these cases. And the point never was that it's okay, the point was that Israel is not an exception as this is very common during wars. A track record of committing atrocities and then LYING about it goes a long way towards whether we should give credibility to the IDF's latest claims of innosence. The fact that they have lied so much in the past AND also in this incident is the reason why I have a very very hard time believing a single thing coming out of their mouth. But you already know this. You already know how they stole all the evidence and how they are refusing an independent investigation to clear up the matter. I suspect you don't really care what the truth is because Israel must be defended no matter what. Don't worry, the lies and misinformation activists tendsto sprout has done the same to me! I dont think i fully understand what on earth you are talking about, but if you seriously support Israel then you must be some uninformed little lapp. Im not saying i support those activists on the boats cus they knew what they were getting themselves into but my point is that Israel time and time again breaks international laws; bombing hospitals, bombing UN-schools the list just goes on and on and every time they come with some lie to protect themselves, i dont hate jews i just hate israel. Perhaps the reason why I support Israel is because I don't think they intentionally bomb schools*. Have you read about the peace talks at Camp David in 2000? Clinton Paremeters? I suggest you do and see how much Israel really wants peace and how little Palestine does. I can't remember who said it, but it went something like this: When Palestinians will love their children more than they hate Israel we shall have peace. Well, maybe that's not entirely true. I'm sure a lot of Palestinians also want peace.
So they didn't bomb the schools intentionally, does it make it right? How myopic are you, and this just proves the point "When Palestinians will love their children more than they hate Israel we shall have peace."
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On June 12 2010 02:12 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 01:59 Roflhaxx wrote:On June 12 2010 01:49 Squeegy wrote:On June 12 2010 01:42 Klaz wrote:On June 12 2010 01:38 Squeegy wrote:
How about we are not even discussing the Flotilla here but IDF's "reputation" of killing civilians? You don't have to go farther than Iraq and Afghanistan to find these cases. And the point never was that it's okay, the point was that Israel is not an exception as this is very common during wars. A track record of committing atrocities and then LYING about it goes a long way towards whether we should give credibility to the IDF's latest claims of innosence. The fact that they have lied so much in the past AND also in this incident is the reason why I have a very very hard time believing a single thing coming out of their mouth. But you already know this. You already know how they stole all the evidence and how they are refusing an independent investigation to clear up the matter. I suspect you don't really care what the truth is because Israel must be defended no matter what. Don't worry, the lies and misinformation activists tendsto sprout has done the same to me! I dont think i fully understand what on earth you are talking about, but if you seriously support Israel then you must be some uninformed little lapp. Im not saying i support those activists on the boats cus they knew what they were getting themselves into but my point is that Israel time and time again breaks international laws; bombing hospitals, bombing UN-schools the list just goes on and on and every time they come with some lie to protect themselves, i dont hate jews i just hate israel. Perhaps the reason why I support Israel is because I don't think they intentionally bomb schools*. Have you read about the peace talks at Camp David in 2000? Clinton Paremeters? I suggest you do and see how much Israel really wants peace and how little Palestine does. I can't remember who said it, but it went something like this: When Palestinians will love their children more than they hate Israel we shall have peace. Well, maybe that's not entirely true. I'm sure a lot of Palestinians also want peace.
That shit is just a big part of the propaganda machine that is Israel, you honestly believe that israel high-tech rockets are able to miss one building and hit UN? And don't you find it a bit strange that they first say there were bombs bla bla there and then they change their statement saying instead that they were trying to hit the nearby building but missed...
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On June 12 2010 02:19 Gunman_csz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 02:12 Squeegy wrote:On June 12 2010 01:59 Roflhaxx wrote:On June 12 2010 01:49 Squeegy wrote:On June 12 2010 01:42 Klaz wrote:On June 12 2010 01:38 Squeegy wrote:
How about we are not even discussing the Flotilla here but IDF's "reputation" of killing civilians? You don't have to go farther than Iraq and Afghanistan to find these cases. And the point never was that it's okay, the point was that Israel is not an exception as this is very common during wars. A track record of committing atrocities and then LYING about it goes a long way towards whether we should give credibility to the IDF's latest claims of innosence. The fact that they have lied so much in the past AND also in this incident is the reason why I have a very very hard time believing a single thing coming out of their mouth. But you already know this. You already know how they stole all the evidence and how they are refusing an independent investigation to clear up the matter. I suspect you don't really care what the truth is because Israel must be defended no matter what. Don't worry, the lies and misinformation activists tendsto sprout has done the same to me! I dont think i fully understand what on earth you are talking about, but if you seriously support Israel then you must be some uninformed little lapp. Im not saying i support those activists on the boats cus they knew what they were getting themselves into but my point is that Israel time and time again breaks international laws; bombing hospitals, bombing UN-schools the list just goes on and on and every time they come with some lie to protect themselves, i dont hate jews i just hate israel. Perhaps the reason why I support Israel is because I don't think they intentionally bomb schools*. Have you read about the peace talks at Camp David in 2000? Clinton Paremeters? I suggest you do and see how much Israel really wants peace and how little Palestine does. I can't remember who said it, but it went something like this: When Palestinians will love their children more than they hate Israel we shall have peace. Well, maybe that's not entirely true. I'm sure a lot of Palestinians also want peace. So they didn't bomb the schools intentionally, does it make it right? How myopic are you, and this just proves the point "When Palestinians will love their children more than they hate Israel we shall have peace."
No, it doesn't make it right. It makes it a terrible, unfortunate event. But you try fighting a war without collateral damage, especially when your enemy uses human shields and civilian clothes.
On June 12 2010 02:24 Roflhaxx wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 02:12 Squeegy wrote:On June 12 2010 01:59 Roflhaxx wrote:On June 12 2010 01:49 Squeegy wrote:On June 12 2010 01:42 Klaz wrote:On June 12 2010 01:38 Squeegy wrote:
How about we are not even discussing the Flotilla here but IDF's "reputation" of killing civilians? You don't have to go farther than Iraq and Afghanistan to find these cases. And the point never was that it's okay, the point was that Israel is not an exception as this is very common during wars. A track record of committing atrocities and then LYING about it goes a long way towards whether we should give credibility to the IDF's latest claims of innosence. The fact that they have lied so much in the past AND also in this incident is the reason why I have a very very hard time believing a single thing coming out of their mouth. But you already know this. You already know how they stole all the evidence and how they are refusing an independent investigation to clear up the matter. I suspect you don't really care what the truth is because Israel must be defended no matter what. Don't worry, the lies and misinformation activists tendsto sprout has done the same to me! I dont think i fully understand what on earth you are talking about, but if you seriously support Israel then you must be some uninformed little lapp. Im not saying i support those activists on the boats cus they knew what they were getting themselves into but my point is that Israel time and time again breaks international laws; bombing hospitals, bombing UN-schools the list just goes on and on and every time they come with some lie to protect themselves, i dont hate jews i just hate israel. Perhaps the reason why I support Israel is because I don't think they intentionally bomb schools*. Have you read about the peace talks at Camp David in 2000? Clinton Paremeters? I suggest you do and see how much Israel really wants peace and how little Palestine does. I can't remember who said it, but it went something like this: When Palestinians will love their children more than they hate Israel we shall have peace. Well, maybe that's not entirely true. I'm sure a lot of Palestinians also want peace. That shit is just a big part of the propaganda machine that is Israel, you honestly believe that israel high-tech rockets are able to miss one building and hit UN? And don't you find it a bit strange that they first say there were bombs bla bla there and then they change their statement saying instead that they were trying to hit the nearby building but missed...
It is a PR war. Of course they try to make themselves look as good as possible. That's common sense. Israel just happens to be very bad at it. Many times I have stated in this thread that I think it is probable Israel isn't telling the whole story.
And yes, even the high-tech missiles miss. If you think they hit their targets 100% of the time, I really don't know what to tell you.
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especially when your enemy uses human shields
....do some research, it was quite to the contrary
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On June 12 2010 02:24 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 02:19 Gunman_csz wrote:On June 12 2010 02:12 Squeegy wrote:On June 12 2010 01:59 Roflhaxx wrote:On June 12 2010 01:49 Squeegy wrote:On June 12 2010 01:42 Klaz wrote:On June 12 2010 01:38 Squeegy wrote:
How about we are not even discussing the Flotilla here but IDF's "reputation" of killing civilians? You don't have to go farther than Iraq and Afghanistan to find these cases. And the point never was that it's okay, the point was that Israel is not an exception as this is very common during wars. A track record of committing atrocities and then LYING about it goes a long way towards whether we should give credibility to the IDF's latest claims of innosence. The fact that they have lied so much in the past AND also in this incident is the reason why I have a very very hard time believing a single thing coming out of their mouth. But you already know this. You already know how they stole all the evidence and how they are refusing an independent investigation to clear up the matter. I suspect you don't really care what the truth is because Israel must be defended no matter what. Don't worry, the lies and misinformation activists tendsto sprout has done the same to me! I dont think i fully understand what on earth you are talking about, but if you seriously support Israel then you must be some uninformed little lapp. Im not saying i support those activists on the boats cus they knew what they were getting themselves into but my point is that Israel time and time again breaks international laws; bombing hospitals, bombing UN-schools the list just goes on and on and every time they come with some lie to protect themselves, i dont hate jews i just hate israel. Perhaps the reason why I support Israel is because I don't think they intentionally bomb schools*. Have you read about the peace talks at Camp David in 2000? Clinton Paremeters? I suggest you do and see how much Israel really wants peace and how little Palestine does. I can't remember who said it, but it went something like this: When Palestinians will love their children more than they hate Israel we shall have peace. Well, maybe that's not entirely true. I'm sure a lot of Palestinians also want peace. So they didn't bomb the schools intentionally, does it make it right? How myopic are you, and this just proves the point "When Palestinians will love their children more than they hate Israel we shall have peace." No, it doesn't make it right. It makes it a terrible, unfortunate event. But you try fighting a war without collateral damage, especially when your enemy uses human shields and civilian clothes.
For me its more how they do it than that they do it, if that makes any sense.
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United Arab Emirates492 Posts
Your enemy has killed 20civilians with the THOUSANDS OF ROCKETS which IDF always states the reason for blockade, In comparison IDF have killed over thousands of civilians and destroyed social infrastructure, doesn't it make the proportion of force irrational and unjustifiable?
And phrases like that just show how subjective you are in your way of thinking "When Palestinians will love their children more than they hate Israel we shall have peace." is just a loaded logically fallacy equivalent of; "Have you stopped beating your wife?".
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On June 12 2010 02:28 blomsterjohn wrote:....do some research, it was quite to the contrary
The cases where IDF used human shields were something like them using civilians to check for bombs. Terrible, I know, but totally irrelevant. Hamas is actually sitting amongst the civilians, meaning that you can't really shoot at them without harming civilians. And that is one cause for the large number of civilian deaths. And that is what we are discussing here.
On June 12 2010 02:30 Gunman_csz wrote:
Your enemy has killed 20civilians with the THOUSANDS OF ROCKETS which IDF always states the reason for blockade, In comparison IDF have killed over thousands of civilians and destroyed social infrastructure, doesn't it make the proportion of force irrational and unjustifiable?
And phrases like that just show how subjective you are in your way of thinking "When Palestinians will love their children more than they hate Israel we shall have peace." is just a loaded logically fallacy equivalent of; "Have you stopped beating your wife?".
If you're gonna shoot rockets to my backyard, I will respond with force. And if I happen to be much stronger than you, then yes, you tend to suffer far larger casualties. And even that didn't teach Hamas to stop. I wonder what will. Perhaps Israel's demise, but that would only put a smile on your face, now wouldn't it? But that's fine because Israel is evil, right?
I don't think you even know what a logical fallacy is. I have actually studied logic, so before using big fancy words, you should really try figuring out what they mean first because you always risk facing someone who does and then you look dumb. But hey, better luck next time!
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United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On June 12 2010 02:43 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 02:28 blomsterjohn wrote:especially when your enemy uses human shields ....do some research, it was quite to the contrary The cases where IDF used human shields were something like them using civilians to check for bombs. Terrible, I know, but totally irrelevant. Hamas is actually sitting amongst the civilians, meaning that you can't really shoot at them without harming civilians. And that is one cause for the large number of civilian deaths. And that is what we are discussing here. Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 02:30 Gunman_csz wrote:
Your enemy has killed 20civilians with the THOUSANDS OF ROCKETS which IDF always states the reason for blockade, In comparison IDF have killed over thousands of civilians and destroyed social infrastructure, doesn't it make the proportion of force irrational and unjustifiable?
And phrases like that just show how subjective you are in your way of thinking "When Palestinians will love their children more than they hate Israel we shall have peace." is just a loaded logically fallacy equivalent of; "Have you stopped beating your wife?". If you're gonna shoot rockets to my backyard, I will respond with force. And if I happen to be much stronger than you, then yes, you tend to suffer far larger casualties. And even that didn't teach Hamas to stop. I wonder what will. Perhaps Israel's demise, but that would only put a smile on your face, now wouldn't it? But that's fine because Israel is evil, right? I don't think you even know what a logical fallacy is. I have actually studied logic, so before using big fancy words, you should really try figuring out what they mean first because you always risk facing someone who does and then you look dumb. But hey, better luck next time!
First. I am not justifying what hamas is doing. But IDF is acting no differently then them. In the end the people are suffering are the majority of civilians who have no control over what is going on, and innocent deaths on both sides only create more radicals and fanatics. And using more proportional force and war does not result in peace. I don't get you, first you talk about peace, then you talk about using force, which is it? According to your logic hamas will stop once Israel is wiped of this planet, so that means you need to wipe out all of Gaza in doing so?
"Perhaps Israel's demise, but that would only put a smile on your face, now wouldn't it? But that's fine because Israel is evil, right?"
I thank you for coming to conclusion that I have something against the people who reside within Israel!! You are indeed very logical and rational...
I have no problem against the civilians but rather the political leaders on both sides who manipulate, distort realities/perception of civilians for their own political/economical goals
Edit : please do enlighten me with my mistake of the term loaded question.
Edit: Rather then admitting that you are biased, you attack people that stand neutral and call us that we some sort of Israel haters. Really great man, and then you wonder why people are calling you a troll.
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On June 12 2010 02:52 Gunman_csz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 02:43 Squeegy wrote:On June 12 2010 02:28 blomsterjohn wrote:especially when your enemy uses human shields ....do some research, it was quite to the contrary The cases where IDF used human shields were something like them using civilians to check for bombs. Terrible, I know, but totally irrelevant. Hamas is actually sitting amongst the civilians, meaning that you can't really shoot at them without harming civilians. And that is one cause for the large number of civilian deaths. And that is what we are discussing here. On June 12 2010 02:30 Gunman_csz wrote:
Your enemy has killed 20civilians with the THOUSANDS OF ROCKETS which IDF always states the reason for blockade, In comparison IDF have killed over thousands of civilians and destroyed social infrastructure, doesn't it make the proportion of force irrational and unjustifiable?
And phrases like that just show how subjective you are in your way of thinking "When Palestinians will love their children more than they hate Israel we shall have peace." is just a loaded logically fallacy equivalent of; "Have you stopped beating your wife?". If you're gonna shoot rockets to my backyard, I will respond with force. And if I happen to be much stronger than you, then yes, you tend to suffer far larger casualties. And even that didn't teach Hamas to stop. I wonder what will. Perhaps Israel's demise, but that would only put a smile on your face, now wouldn't it? But that's fine because Israel is evil, right? I don't think you even know what a logical fallacy is. I have actually studied logic, so before using big fancy words, you should really try figuring out what they mean first because you always risk facing someone who does and then you look dumb. But hey, better luck next time! First. I am not justifying what hamas is doing. But IDF is acting no differently then them. In the end the people are suffering are the majority of civilians who have no control over what is going on, and innocent deaths on both sides only create more radicals and fanatics. And using more proportional force and war does not result in peace. I don't get you, first you talk about peace, then you talk about using force, which is it? According to your logic hamas will stop once Israel is wiped of this planet, so that means you need to wipe out all of Gaza in doing so? "Perhaps Israel's demise, but that would only put a smile on your face, now wouldn't it? But that's fine because Israel is evil, right?" I thank you for coming to conclusion that I have something against the people who reside within Israel!! You are indeed very logical and rational... I have no problem against the civilians but rather the political leaders on both sides who manipulate, distort realities/perception of civilians for their own political/economical goals Edit : please do enlighten me with my mistake of the term loaded question.
If all of Gaza thinks like Hamas then either this or change their minds. I don't know how to change their minds, nor do I think they should be exterminated. Obviously I have no solution to the mess, but until someone figures out an answer, I fully support Israel's right to self-defence. And as long as Hamas fights as it does, we shall have more civilian casualties than is necessary. And as long as Palestinians support Hamas, this will not change. The ball is on the Palestinian side and has been for quite a while.
You know, those who keep company with wolves learn to howl. But actually I confused you with the other guy who posted in the past hour. But I should tell you that it is the people who elect their leaders.
Well, first of all I should point out that it's not a question. The fallacy you mentioned is always a question. But you're not entirely wrong. They both are sentences and written in English, so they indeed have something in common!
Ps. If you're neutral then I'm Santa Claus.
Pps. And about being a troll: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=130403
Admittably I haven't tried my best to be a decent poster lately, but that is because some people simply are beyond argument and I don't have the stamina to hit my head against a wall. But what I'm doing here is not trolling. Just like my quote wasn't a loaded question. Or a question at all. But I'm a person and I guess trolls are too, so you're not entirely off here either!
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Thanks for the responses Klaz and BlackJack. First thing to say is I think you misunderstood my point. I wasn't trying to say that just because other people have killed in wars that it's fine. I also wasn't trying to draw a comparison between the situations/wars. What i was comparing, is the fact that a side of a dispute, where war/killing happens, who are considered to have well meanings, ie defending themselves, can still end up committing atrocities, so your examples of WP and the child do not justify the opinion that Israelites are terrorizing oppressors and the Palestinians are to be sympathized with, just because a county commits something worthy of being called a war crime and immoral trying to win a conflict doesn't mean their reasons for fighting the conflict are wrong/immoral.
Lets look at the history. The Ottoman empire started off ruling the area, and after WW1 it collapsed and the British ruled Palestine, during the time Jewish immigration increased dramatically, especially because of the holocaust and persecution in Germany. The Arab people were getting angered by the situation because they believed that the British were making it easy for the Jewish people to migrate to Palestine, and also because the Jewish people were giving preferential treatment to other Jews in trading, making it difficult for the Arabs to do business in Palestine. So there was some rioting from the Arabs, now at this point they could of done two things, either try and be diplomatic, and show the rest of the world that the jewish people were being prejudice in business and making their lives difficult and use the backing of the surrounding countries as an influence to stop the Jewish people doing this. Instead they decided to kill 67 Jewish people in the "Hebron massacre" because there were false rumors that Jews were in fact massacring Arabs, two guesses as to which side started those rumors.
So the Palestinians started the violence pretty much, not unprovoked, but still they killed 67 people. Tensions rose and other riots killed hundreds on both sides. Then the British reduced immigration of Jews dramatically to try and lighten the situation, but the holocaust caused massive illegal immigration of Jews into Israel, trying to escape persecution from Europe, so then the "two state solution" was created, purposely not including the major countries in the decision to make it fair, ie no USA or Britain. So what happened then? The Jewish people declared their part of the state an independent country. So the Arab's said "screw the two state solution, lets kill them" and then we had a war with Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria attacking Israel, (and in fact in this conflict there was a bloke called King Abdullah I of Jordan who basically came to a peace agreement with the Jewish people, and vowed not to join in and attack them, but only defend areas that the Jewish people attacked.) Infact in the leadership of the Arab forces were people involved in supporting Nazi Germany, and particularly the Holocaust (people like , Amin al-Husayni)
So you want me to continue to prove that Israel is not the aggressor? just i assume this is pretty long already and we are still in the 1940's and i think thats enough evidence by itself.
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Just gonna say, although this is causing a pretty big stink right now, you can bet that if Palestine had launched an attack on Israel the west would have piled on in and noone would have asked any questions.
It's so unfair the way the Palestinians are being treated.
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On June 11 2010 17:45 Doix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2010 17:08 OldSkuLL wrote:
I am the few turk that doesnt support the whole strategy of Turkey in Middle-East.
We support Gazze and Arabs, arabs attacked us from behind in World War 1 with England. And we now help them out, even we know this will cost us blood.
Of course there is a specific reason to this. Our government is an islam based party. They want Turkish religinoal emotions to grow up so they can get votes. We lose civilians and soldiers every day in south east anatolia to kurdish terrorists. but government doesnt give a .uck about it. All they think is arabs and the stupid islam.
And about israel ... They are child killers. They use chemical weapons on civilians. They kill without having a hesitate. They are seriously not a human being (im not talking about jews).
But we are (turks) not the ones that has to stop them. First of all near arab countries should think to save their nations. Not us.
People should really stop saying that... It is much easier to kill people than not kill them. The ship could of been easily sunk without any risk of getting injured soldiers at all. If their goal was just to go and kill people, they could of sunk the ships and killed a lot more people in the process. It's because Israel does show restraint most of the time people forget what real genocide is. Like I said before in an earlier post, the Gaza strip is a pretty small piece of land with one of the highest population densities in the world(6th according to Wikipedia). The death toll would be much higher if their aim was to exterminate the Palestinians .
Omg you fail so hard to understand the difference between having genetics link and considering a group like a "people".
I will try to explain it to you: is there any genetics bound between a 3rd generation american coming from a familly that fled from germany during the WWII and a mexicain american? No, but they still consider themselves as one people: the American "people".
A people is not only a question of genetics... is it too hard to understand ? The jews have genetics ties but they do not considered themselves as one "people" before zionism. (For exemple, there are many jews that consider themselves part of the French people or the American people).
Do you understand?
UdderChaos: Thank you, I was just writing a useful post for a change, about how war is, in fact (although it may surprise some), ugly and unfair.
I doubt these people know that the US army, for example, has its own cases of civilian killings too. And the soldiers even walked away free! But I am almost certain that they don't know that some IDF troops (as well as US troops) have gone to jail! Oh no, could it really be?! But hey, let's keep repeating a handful of cases and judge the whole institution based on those.
Stop trying to tell us you know war any better than we do.
I think I will stop posting in this thread let's just make everything clear: there is too much difference in value between pro Israel and the rest of us. You have no problem justifying the killing of a 13years old girl with 10 bullets. And the worst part is the guy is not even punished for his crimes. You are crazy.
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EPT
