EPTAlso, if you don't know much about it yet, I suggest you read about the peace talks with Clinton, Barak and Arafat.
News: Israel Attacks Gazan Aid Flotilla - Page 66
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Squeegy
Finland1166 Posts
Also, if you don't know much about it yet, I suggest you read about the peace talks with Clinton, Barak and Arafat. | ||
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mmp
United States2130 Posts
Otherwise Israel has stolen and refuses to release thousands of dollars worth of recording equipment and hours of footage. Douchebags. | ||
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ArKaDo
France121 Posts
On June 11 2010 01:35 EtherealDeath wrote: On another note, anyone have recommended readings (books, articles, etc) on the whole history of the Israel-Palestinian conflict and any relevant side topics (for example, the sudden industry of American support for Israel only AFTER the 1967 war), both in terms of history and legal arguments? Well, there is Israël, parlons-en ! which is a pretty solid book made by Michel Colon with the participation of a lot of israeli's historian and different intellectuals (like chomsky), althought I don't know if it is in english yet. And of course there is The Invention of the Jewish People by Schlomo Sand and The Holocaust Industry by Norman G. Finkelstein which are the two major books who created most of the buzz recently. For the sionist part, (because the two books I have linked are against most of Israeli's positions) I only know french book so i will quote them even if I think it is useless for you: Post-zionism, Post-Shoah by Elhanan Yakira and What future for Israel ? by Schlomo Ben-Ami and some jew philosophers. Those are pro israeli's books. And not very historic, but I had to link them to be less partial, since I personnally think that the first books I linked (finkelstein, schlomo sand) are way much important. | ||
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Squeegy
Finland1166 Posts
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ArKaDo
France121 Posts
On June 11 2010 05:07 Squeegy wrote: I really wonder why would you think The Invention of the Jewish People is important. Do you actually think the book is true? I said "created the buzz". And yes I think the book is true, but I'm no expert. Please give me some argument telling why you consider it false. | ||
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Squeegy
Finland1166 Posts
And now that you've learned something new, why don't you try questioning - questioning, not rejecting - the rest of your beliefs too. | ||
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Subversive
Australia2229 Posts
On June 11 2010 01:35 EtherealDeath wrote: + Show Spoiler + Just going to reply in general to what I've read you post. First, just to let you know it is my opinion that the flotilla was a planned PR event to trigger an Exodus (1950s) type event, and Israel was silly and fell for it, and is now engaged in PR recovery. So I'm at least not very biased toward either side. A few statements which you seem to dispute 1) Israel made an active attempt to confiscate material witness evidence from the ship 2) There were quite a few people on the ship who recalled being fired upon before the boarding; some people in this thread contemplated that perhaps they were just warning shots which were misinterpreted by the ship members 3) A 2 minute edit of an event which spanned hours is sufficient evidence for us to derive conclusions, when the entire event lasted hours and the most important part - the events which led up to the boarding, are completely left out. There is also my opinion wherein you state that the legality of the boarding is debatable depending on which document you decide to interpret: however, if we consider the document which the Israelis find most relevant, the 1994 San Remo manual, then the only binary relationship in which the boarding is legal is between Israel and the United States (I think the US is the only country which recognizes the blockade as legal). Could be wrong in that regard. At any rate, in my opinion what is important is not so much the legality of the event, but rather the fact that it happened. This was amazingly stupid, to do this in international waters. Completely terrible PR. I wonder what will happen next, as the current leadership is feeling somewhat trigger happy so to speak. On another note, anyone have recommended readings (books, articles, etc) on the whole history of the Israel-Palestinian conflict and any relevant side topics (for example, the sudden industry of American support for Israel only AFTER the 1967 war), both in terms of history and legal arguments? Nice to hear a voice both erudite and not overly biased. I agree with everything you've wrote. I too, think it was intended for PR. However I firmly reject the ridiculous notion that people wished to "martyr" themselves like suicide bombers. That is both contemptible and offensive to the deceased who were killed. Hopefully the clowns running Israel at the moment manage not to make the present situation any worse. | ||
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Pablols
Chile519 Posts
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ArKaDo
France121 Posts
On June 11 2010 05:36 Squeegy wrote: http://www.newsweek.com/2010/06/03/the-dna-of-abraham-s-children.html And now that you've learned something new, why don't you try questioning - questioning, not rejecting - the rest of your beliefs too. You should read the book before questioning it man, a thing you haven't done it seems. It's boring to speak with you because you are such an amateur man! I was sure you were going to give me those DNA joke. I will just quote Shlomo Sand and maybe you will understand that the book is not only about blood : Although most Zionist thought was ethnocentric and in some cases even defined Judaism in racial terms, I insisted in my book that Zionist thinkers had not thought in terms of a pure race and had no intentions of “purifying” it. After all, the Jewish religion would not have permitted such a conception (see pp. 265-6). Zionism did however reconfigure the many and diverse Jewish communities into an “ethnic” people in which most of its members were to be seen as the descendants of the ancient Hebrews. As is well-known, a religious community cannot possess historical ownership rights over a land, whereas a people can. What it means is that: YES all three genetics group share the same genome but... the jewish "people" did not consider itself as a people BEFORE zionism. And it was actually (as Sand says) not permitted by the Jewish religion. So yes, even if there is a strong genetics ties between the three groups, these three groups started to consider themselves as a "people" with zionism. Well you don't need to read Sand to understand that actually because you see the exact same comment in Victor Klemperer's LTI (fifty years before Sand's Invetion of the Jewish People). Yes, Sand is wrong for one point (thinking that europeans jews came from a turkish group), but that does not means everything he says is wrong by the way. Understand what is history please. In fact, I was waiting for you to give me historical proof that Jewish considered themselves as a people (and not a religion) before zionism. Don't understand why you are so agressiv thought. | ||
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SirGlinG
Sweden933 Posts
Thanks Etheraldeath for your post! And I can just agree with subversive on everything he said about it. And big thanks to MMP for that video. Internet really is a great voice for democracy. The most unbiased american tv show I've seen before has been The today show with Jon stewart or the young turks but I'll donate to democracynow. btw have you got any other websites to recommend for another american view on politics? I've been writing in this thread because I fear that a biased view of ignorance will be the only thing that lurkers read. Well it's developed into a quite interesting thread to follow and I enjoy reading your posts good unbiased people!=) Now I'll go to sleep with a smile knowing that the video will be given to the U.N and pressure for a objective investigation will even increase. | ||
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angelicfolly
United States292 Posts
On June 11 2010 01:35 EtherealDeath wrote: + Show Spoiler + Just going to reply in general to what I've read you post. First, just to let you know it is my opinion that the flotilla was a planned PR event to trigger an Exodus (1950s) type event, and Israel was silly and fell for it, and is now engaged in PR recovery. So I'm at least not very biased toward either side. A few statements which you seem to dispute 1) Israel made an active attempt to confiscate material witness evidence from the ship 2) There were quite a few people on the ship who recalled being fired upon before the boarding; some people in this thread contemplated that perhaps they were just warning shots which were misinterpreted by the ship members 3) A 2 minute edit of an event which spanned hours is sufficient evidence for us to derive conclusions, when the entire event lasted hours and the most important part - the events which led up to the boarding, are completely left out. There is also my opinion wherein you state that the legality of the boarding is debatable depending on which document you decide to interpret: however, if we consider the document which the Israelis find most relevant, the 1994 San Remo manual, then the only binary relationship in which the boarding is legal is between Israel and the United States (I think the US is the only country which recognizes the blockade as legal). Could be wrong in that regard. At any rate, in my opinion what is important is not so much the legality of the event, but rather the fact that it happened. This \was amazingly stupid, to do this in international waters. Completely terrible PR. I wonder what will happen next, as the current leadership is feeling somewhat trigger happy so to speak. On another note, anyone have recommended readings (books, articles, etc) on the whole history of the Israel-Palestinian conflict and any relevant side topics (for example, the sudden industry of American support for Israel only AFTER the 1967 war), both in terms of history and legal arguments? I have stated Israel messed up. 1. Why because not everything is out yet, and my opinion is not completely formed it. With that said, can you point to a post that says I deny such a thing? I looked over my posts and didn't see such a thing that could be attributed to me making that claim. Because I haven't said one thing either way, why would you miss-characterized my post? 2. I have stated this actually. One the very problem with eye witness reports. Two I have stated that the eye witness reports of them shooting rubber bullets, tear gas, and tazers would be part of the normal route to take over a ship with 600 passengers. On eye witness reports http://agora.stanford.edu/sjls/Issue One/fisher&tversky.htm On "shooting" first I haven't read any "eye witness" reports about them shooting and killing first. Only reports about tear gas, plastic bullets, tazers, and beatings. Which (without the beating part to an extent) is actually normal moves to take over a rouge ship. They where TOLD not to break the blockade Israel wasn't going to set by and say "ok where just going to keep screaming at you while you go by"... There's a reason why I said what document you use. There's also a reason why I'm focused on the event and not the legal side of the boarding. SirGlinG, Interesting that you would accuse me of not responding to some of your claims, but yet you want to do the same (even if you want to say others responded to me, there are things they didn't respond to) The today show being unbiased? Ummm no. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Daily_Show Stewart and other Daily Show writers have responded to both criticisms by saying that they do not have any journalistic responsibility and that as comedians their only duty is to provide entertainment. Look a witness that actually was not a witness... http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=48407 Everyone remember this video? Remember when it was said they used paint ball guns? Looks to be true. It's at 0.56 Subversive, these two videos are aimed at you, take them how you want Interesting passenger Interesting song and passenger Oh, for those who say the blockade is illegal why are you NOT going after Egypt? http://thefastertimes.com/bignews/2010/06/02/did-egypt-just-kill-the-gaza-blockade-for-good/ What was posted http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/10/exclusive_journalist_smuggles_out_video_of 14 minutes of the actual video http://mondoweiss.net/2010/06/new-footage-of-flotilla-attack-contradicts-israeli-account.html NOT a smoking gun. Does not explain what happen on deck, and most of the video is below deck with injured. We already know people where injured. Lets see what the the actaul full video will show. Interesting it shows a shot being fired form a helicopter (doesn't tell what was fired) but it also shows people reacting stupidly (using slingshots). This is a interesting list, does anybody know hebrew? http://img816.imageshack.us/img816/8975/mavimarmaralist.jpg | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
On June 10 2010 08:33 Gunman_csz wrote: Yea what would you do? If you hear a loud bang, and gun shots, then see soldiers coming down of helicopters with guns in the pitch black night, with navy surrounding your boat... Wouldn't you act irrationally given also the history of violence acts committed by Israeli soldiers on to civilians / journalists? Why couldn't Israeli army board the ship in broad day light, or use any of the many different methods highlighted by the critics? More importantly how can you raid a ship on international waters.... Also it is not like they flotilla wasn't inspected twice in Europe before heading to Gaza! You realize that only 1 boat out of the err 5...6? shiz been awhile sense i was in this thread forgot the number of boats in the flotilla but as far as i recall only 1 boat had any injuries and deaths, guess which boat it was the one with the fighting back lol yeah good choice there... | ||
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OldSkuLL
Turkey34 Posts
We support Gazze and Arabs, arabs attacked us from behind in World War 1 with England. And we now help them out, even we know this will cost us blood. Of course there is a specific reason to this. Our government is an islam based party. They want Turkish religinoal emotions to grow up so they can get votes. We lose civilians and soldiers every day in south east anatolia to kurdish terrorists. but government doesnt give a .uck about it. All they think is arabs and the stupid islam. And about israel ... They are child killers. They use chemical weapons on civilians. They kill without having a hesitate. They are seriously not a human being (im not talking about jews). But we are (turks) not the ones that has to stop them. First of all near arab countries should think to save their nations. Not us. | ||
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Subversive
Australia2229 Posts
On June 11 2010 16:51 semantics wrote: You realize that only 1 boat out of the err 5...6? shiz been awhile sense i was in this thread forgot the number of boats in the flotilla but as far as i recall only 1 boat had any injuries and deaths, guess which boat it was the one with the fighting back lol yeah good choice there... Yeah there were 600 people on one boat and an average of 20 people on each of the other 5. Guess which one put up resistance? The one with 600 people. Read some more about the details before making insinuations based on nothing. | ||
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Squeegy
Finland1166 Posts
On June 11 2010 06:35 ArKaDo wrote: You should read the book before questioning it man, a thing you haven't done it seems. It's boring to speak with you because you are such an amateur man! I was sure you were going to give me those DNA joke. I will just quote Shlomo Sand and maybe you will understand that the book is not only about blood : What it means is that: YES all three genetics group share the same genome but... the jewish "people" did not consider itself as a people BEFORE zionism. And it was actually (as Sand says) not permitted by the Jewish religion. So yes, even if there is a strong genetics ties between the three groups, these three groups started to consider themselves as a "people" with zionism. Well you don't need to read Sand to understand that actually because you see the exact same comment in Victor Klemperer's LTI (fifty years before Sand's Invetion of the Jewish People). Yes, Sand is wrong for one point (thinking that europeans jews came from a turkish group), but that does not means everything he says is wrong by the way. Understand what is history please. In fact, I was waiting for you to give me historical proof that Jewish considered themselves as a people (and not a religion) before zionism. Don't understand why you are so agressiv thought. I thought the book was supposed to show that there is no such thing as Jewish people on historical basis. That it was invented. Well, my link disproved this claim. There, in fact, is such thing as Jewish people and has been for quite some time. On June 11 2010 07:20 SirGlinG wrote: Just got back home, was going to answer you Angelicfoly but it seems that my work has been done for me. Thanks Etheraldeath for your post! And I can just agree with subversive on everything he said about it. And big thanks to MMP for that video. Internet really is a great voice for democracy. The most unbiased american tv show I've seen before has been The today show with Jon stewart or the young turks but I'll donate to democracynow. btw have you got any other websites to recommend for another american view on politics? I've been writing in this thread because I fear that a biased view of ignorance will be the only thing that lurkers read. Well it's developed into a quite interesting thread to follow and I enjoy reading your posts good unbiased people!=) Now I'll go to sleep with a smile knowing that the video will be given to the U.N and pressure for a objective investigation will even increase. Oh yes, damn those ignorant and biased Israeli supporters! Viva le neutral and thoughtful smartypantness of DemocracyNow! On June 11 2010 17:08 OldSkuLL wrote: I am the few turk that doesnt support the whole strategy of Turkey in Middle-East. We support Gazze and Arabs, arabs attacked us from behind in World War 1 with England. And we now help them out, even we know this will cost us blood. Of course there is a specific reason to this. Our government is an islam based party. They want Turkish religinoal emotions to grow up so they can get votes. We lose civilians and soldiers every day in south east anatolia to kurdish terrorists. but government doesnt give a .uck about it. All they think is arabs and the stupid islam. And about israel ... They are child killers. They use chemical weapons on civilians. They kill without having a hesitate. They are seriously not a human being (im not talking about jews). But we are (turks) not the ones that has to stop them. First of all near arab countries should think to save their nations. Not us. Don't worry. You still have your military that is pretty sane. | ||
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Doix
United Kingdom32 Posts
On June 11 2010 17:08 OldSkuLL wrote: I am the few turk that doesnt support the whole strategy of Turkey in Middle-East. We support Gazze and Arabs, arabs attacked us from behind in World War 1 with England. And we now help them out, even we know this will cost us blood. Of course there is a specific reason to this. Our government is an islam based party. They want Turkish religinoal emotions to grow up so they can get votes. We lose civilians and soldiers every day in south east anatolia to kurdish terrorists. but government doesnt give a .uck about it. All they think is arabs and the stupid islam. And about israel ... They are child killers. They use chemical weapons on civilians. They kill without having a hesitate. They are seriously not a human being (im not talking about jews). But we are (turks) not the ones that has to stop them. First of all near arab countries should think to save their nations. Not us. People should really stop saying that... It is much easier to kill people than not kill them. The ship could of been easily sunk without any risk of getting injured soldiers at all. If their goal was just to go and kill people, they could of sunk the ships and killed a lot more people in the process. It's because Israel does show restraint most of the time people forget what real genocide is. Like I said before in an earlier post, the Gaza strip is a pretty small piece of land with one of the highest population densities in the world(6th according to Wikipedia). The death toll would be much higher if their aim was to exterminate the Palestinians . | ||
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Subversive
Australia2229 Posts
On June 11 2010 06:35 ArKaDo wrote: You should read the book before questioning it man, a thing you haven't done it seems. It's boring to speak with you because you are such an amateur man! I was sure you were going to give me those DNA joke. I will just quote Shlomo Sand and maybe you will understand that the book is not only about blood : What it means is that: YES all three genetics group share the same genome but... the jewish "people" did not consider itself as a people BEFORE zionism. And it was actually (as Sand says) not permitted by the Jewish religion. So yes, even if there is a strong genetics ties between the three groups, these three groups started to consider themselves as a "people" with zionism. Well you don't need to read Sand to understand that actually because you see the exact same comment in Victor Klemperer's LTI (fifty years before Sand's Invetion of the Jewish People). Yes, Sand is wrong for one point (thinking that europeans jews came from a turkish group), but that does not means everything he says is wrong by the way. Understand what is history please. In fact, I was waiting for you to give me historical proof that Jewish considered themselves as a people (and not a religion) before zionism. Don't understand why you're so aggressive though. Lol he can't help himself. Just look at his latest post. 3 parts. 1 is making the same point he already made, rather than answering your question and the 2nd and 3rd are just generally sarcastic and nasty in tone. Squeegy you're sinking the more you post. You're just getting personal and bitter now that you've finally run out steam rehashing your same boring theories that are devoid from reality. Personally I've already promised myself not to debate with you. There are people discussing events in here and then you - being inflammatory. If you can't keep it civil without the endless sarcasm then just stop posting. | ||
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OldSkuLL
Turkey34 Posts
On June 11 2010 17:45 Doix wrote: People should really stop saying that... It is much easier to kill people than not kill them. The ship could of been easily sunk without any risk of getting injured soldiers at all. If their goal was just to go and kill people, they could of sunk the ships and killed a lot more people in the process. It's because Israel does show restraint most of the time people forget what real genocide is. Like I said before in an earlier post, the Gaza strip is a pretty small piece of land with one of the highest population densities in the world(6th according to Wikipedia). The death toll would be much higher if their aim was to exterminate the Palestinians . It is clear that you dont have any idea on what happens in Gazze. Israel has killed so many children. And they did this as a purpose. They believe some day these kids will grow up and try to take revenge. I know they used chemical weapons on kids when they were playing at the beach. The only reason that they didnt kill all the people at the ship is the power of Turkey. | ||
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Doix
United Kingdom32 Posts
On June 11 2010 17:57 OldSkuLL wrote: Israel has killed so many children. And they did this as a purpose. They believe some day these kids will grow up and try to take revenge. I know they used chemical weapons on kids when they were playing at the beach. Source? searching for "Israel uses chemical weapons on kids playing on the beach" leads to no results. Like I said, Gaza has a really high population density, trying to attack anywhere will probably result in many civilians dying. Anyway, at least on this point I agree, Israel should of never used chemical weapons in the first place. On June 11 2010 17:57 OldSkuLL wrote: The only reason that they didnt kill all the people at the ship is the power of Turkey. So you agree Israel was trying to avoid killing people on the ship, at least in this case? Anyway, as far as I can tell, no one mentioned that the Hamas refused to accept the aid which was on the flotilla. Have people considered that maybe the lack of cement in the Gaza strip is because the Hamas is using it to build safe houses for their weapon stashes instead of houses for the civilians there (the reason why Israel is limiting the cement given to the Gaza strip)? If we believe Israel's statistics saying that they provide sufficient resources( although some of you made clear that you don't trust Israel :\ ), and we believe the independent reports saying that there is a lack of resources in Gaza one of the logical explanations is that the resources are being used else where. Heck, what if the Hamas is just stealing the aid and not giving it to the civilians to gain more sympathy from the outside world? I mean they refused to accept the aid from the flotilla, which means they rather make a point than help the civilians there. | ||
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Spenguin
Australia3316 Posts
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