On June 12 2010 03:30 Piy wrote: Just gonna say, although this is causing a pretty big stink right now, you can bet that if Palestine had launched an attack on Israel the west would have piled on in and noone would have asked any questions.
It's so unfair the way the Palestinians are being treated.
On June 12 2010 03:30 Piy wrote: Just gonna say, although this is causing a pretty big stink right now, you can bet that if Palestine had launched an attack on Israel the west would have piled on in and noone would have asked any questions.
It's so unfair the way the Palestinians are being treated.
You know the UN actually said that the Sabra & Shatila massacre was a "genocide" ? What do you think those 4 little bomb (who injured no one and only destroyed some rocks) do if you balance it with this history of violence?
I guess I side on Isreal, but only by the barest of margins.
The flotilla was a publicity stunt, and it succeeded in it's purpose. Many of the 'activists' true intents will never be known, but it's rather clear they were itching for a fight. Being largely funded by an organization with strong ties to terrorist cells, it's clear that the IHH had ulterior motives for the convoy than humanitarian relief. Israel just fell for the bait. That many of these activists had some truly outrageous sums of money in their pockets is a little disconcerting too and something many seem to glaze over.
But many seem to ignore the fact that Israel has been attacked multiple times in it's brief history. The first a coalition of many of the regional countries (not that any one of them has ever attacked/declared war on Israel solo) shortly after it's founding attempted to wipe it off the map. Where was the international community then?
Multiple other wars have followed, combined with general animosity and suicide attacks, it's not unusual that Israel has a different mindset then most other countries. That they daily have to exist and be politic in a situation no other first or second world country would sustain is part of the point. Every time Israel won, and took ground for it's own security, the international community pressured them to give it back, nevermind pressuring the other countries for attacking them in the first place.
Time after time, Israel was forced to retreat, that the world would probably have been a different place if they hadn't and just kept the land they won. Let's not also forget the right of settlement. Israel took a inhospitable piece of nowhere and improved it greatly. No small part of the aggressions against them has been to claim the improvements for themselves... (and to continue the genocide, but some seem to ignore that).
Palestine is a tragedy, but one that the other local countries are more than happy to use as a tool against Israel than help attempt to fix. I don't think Israel is blameless by any means, but I can envision their mindset, something few on this forum seem to have bothered trying to do.
I don't think Israel is blameless, they are heavy handed, aggressive, and paranoid. However justified that is, they do stupid things, fairly often and respond in ways with little regard to casualties or public relations. Then again, their opponents and neighboring countries, have instead of just attacking directly, decided to fund the terrorist cells, a Win/Win situation for them. War by proxy in the truest sense.
Is there a solution to the problem? Possibly, but I doubt there's a good realistic solution. Israel's hardline stance, which is near required for their continual survival, and Hamas's goals of a genocidal campaign aren't exactly compatible.
I would be more concerned when those rockets that impact daily start carrying chemical, biological, or nuclear warheads...
Don't doubt for a fact that if they could, that Hamas, Hezbollah or any of their principals wouldn't nuke Israel in a second.
On June 12 2010 01:38 Squeegy wrote: How about we are not even discussing the Flotilla here but IDF's "reputation" of killing civilians? You don't have to go farther than Iraq and Afghanistan to find these cases. And the point never was that it's okay, the point was that Israel is not an exception as this is very common during wars.
A track record of committing atrocities and then LYING about it goes a long way towards whether we should give credibility to the IDF's latest claims of innosence.
The fact that they have lied so much in the past AND also in this incident is the reason why I have a very very hard time believing a single thing coming out of their mouth.
But you already know this. You already know how they stole all the evidence and how they are refusing an independent investigation to clear up the matter. I suspect you don't really care what the truth is because Israel must be defended no matter what.
Don't worry, the lies and misinformation activists tendsto sprout has done the same to me!
I dont think i fully understand what on earth you are talking about, but if you seriously support Israel then you must be some uninformed little lapp. Im not saying i support those activists on the boats cus they knew what they were getting themselves into but my point is that Israel time and time again breaks international laws; bombing hospitals, bombing UN-schools the list just goes on and on and every time they come with some lie to protect themselves, i dont hate jews i just hate israel.
Perhaps the reason why I support Israel is because I don't think they intentionally bomb schools*. Have you read about the peace talks at Camp David in 2000? Clinton Paremeters? I suggest you do and see how much Israel really wants peace and how little Palestine does.
I can't remember who said it, but it went something like this:
When Palestinians will love their children more than they hate Israel we shall have peace.
Well, maybe that's not entirely true. I'm sure a lot of Palestinians also want peace.
Do you know anything about the palestinian & Israelian history? Do you even read anything about Israel? If you did you should know that Israel were always the one who started the war... if they wanted peace, they would have tried something else before attacking the arabic nation during the 6 days war (and not respecting the warning of the europeans nations who told all the country to step back). If you did read anything, you should know that Israel also pushed the arabic nation to go to war during the first arabic-israeli war (1948) with some massacre like the massacre of Deir Yassin. I'm not anti israeli, but come one can't you accept that they also made some belligerant move ? Attacking a ship in the International waters is part of that.
And by the way, Kazius, be serious, Turkey is part of NATO you know...
But many seem to ignore the fact that Israel has been attacked multiple times in it's brief history. The first a coalition of many of the regional countries (not that any one of them has ever attacked/declared war on Israel solo) shortly after it's founding attempted to wipe it off the map. Where was the international community then?
Like I said, read history. You will read that the arabic neighbour of Israel attacked because of the massacre the jewish extremist made. Making most of the palestinian fled to Jordanie or Egypt, and pushing the Egyptian & the Jordanian to ask for war. Again, in most of the conflict between arabic countries & israel, Israel always had territorial objectivs: so they wanted war to expand themselves. Don't think that Israelis are the victims in the affair, because you are wrong.
Before the first Israeli vs Arabs war, Israel knew that they would win easily, because, unlike many of their neighbour country, they had a well equiped army (thanks the to french & US). During the 6 days war, it's the same, everybody knew that Israel would win easily.
In Israel back in the days there was a song saying that Israel think they are still David but in fact they are Golliath. Well, you should just understand that: Israel is the dominant force in the area.
On June 12 2010 01:38 Squeegy wrote: How about we are not even discussing the Flotilla here but IDF's "reputation" of killing civilians? You don't have to go farther than Iraq and Afghanistan to find these cases. And the point never was that it's okay, the point was that Israel is not an exception as this is very common during wars.
A track record of committing atrocities and then LYING about it goes a long way towards whether we should give credibility to the IDF's latest claims of innosence.
The fact that they have lied so much in the past AND also in this incident is the reason why I have a very very hard time believing a single thing coming out of their mouth.
But you already know this. You already know how they stole all the evidence and how they are refusing an independent investigation to clear up the matter. I suspect you don't really care what the truth is because Israel must be defended no matter what.
Don't worry, the lies and misinformation activists tendsto sprout has done the same to me!
I dont think i fully understand what on earth you are talking about, but if you seriously support Israel then you must be some uninformed little lapp. Im not saying i support those activists on the boats cus they knew what they were getting themselves into but my point is that Israel time and time again breaks international laws; bombing hospitals, bombing UN-schools the list just goes on and on and every time they come with some lie to protect themselves, i dont hate jews i just hate israel.
Perhaps the reason why I support Israel is because I don't think they intentionally bomb schools*. Have you read about the peace talks at Camp David in 2000? Clinton Paremeters? I suggest you do and see how much Israel really wants peace and how little Palestine does.
I can't remember who said it, but it went something like this:
When Palestinians will love their children more than they hate Israel we shall have peace.
Well, maybe that's not entirely true. I'm sure a lot of Palestinians also want peace.
Do you know anything about the palestinian & Israelian history? Do you even read anything about Israel? If you did you should know that Israel were always the one who started the war... if they wanted peace, they would have tried something else before attacking the arabic nation during the 6 days war (and not respecting the warning of the europeans nations who told all the country to step back). If you did read anything, you should know that Israel also pushed the arabic nation to go to war during the first arabic-israeli war (1948) with some massacre like the massacre of Deir Yassin. I'm not anti israeli, but come one can't you accept that they also made some belligerant move ? Attacking a ship in the International waters is part of that.
And by the way, Kazius, be serious, Turkey is part of NATO you know...
I think you need to read what i wrote about just who started it, because your history seems to of come out of thin air. As for the six day war, here's a nice quote a few months before, assuring Israel that there needed to be no war and that peace was on the horizon...
speaking to the UN General Assembly in September 1960, Nasser had stated that "The only solution to Palestine is that matters should return to the condition prevailing before the error was committed - i.e., the annulment of Israel's existence." In 1964 he said, "We swear to God that we shall not rest until we restore the Arab nation to Palestine and Palestine to the Arab nation. There is no room for imperialism and there is no room for Britain in our country, just as there is no room for Israel within the Arab nation." In 1965 he asserted, "We shall not enter Palestine with its soil covered in sand, we shall enter it with its soil saturated in blood."
Israel's first strike was just sensible, it was obvious they were going to attack and Israel wanted to get the first hit.
On June 12 2010 01:38 Squeegy wrote: How about we are not even discussing the Flotilla here but IDF's "reputation" of killing civilians? You don't have to go farther than Iraq and Afghanistan to find these cases. And the point never was that it's okay, the point was that Israel is not an exception as this is very common during wars.
A track record of committing atrocities and then LYING about it goes a long way towards whether we should give credibility to the IDF's latest claims of innosence.
The fact that they have lied so much in the past AND also in this incident is the reason why I have a very very hard time believing a single thing coming out of their mouth.
But you already know this. You already know how they stole all the evidence and how they are refusing an independent investigation to clear up the matter. I suspect you don't really care what the truth is because Israel must be defended no matter what.
Don't worry, the lies and misinformation activists tendsto sprout has done the same to me!
I dont think i fully understand what on earth you are talking about, but if you seriously support Israel then you must be some uninformed little lapp. Im not saying i support those activists on the boats cus they knew what they were getting themselves into but my point is that Israel time and time again breaks international laws; bombing hospitals, bombing UN-schools the list just goes on and on and every time they come with some lie to protect themselves, i dont hate jews i just hate israel.
Perhaps the reason why I support Israel is because I don't think they intentionally bomb schools*. Have you read about the peace talks at Camp David in 2000? Clinton Paremeters? I suggest you do and see how much Israel really wants peace and how little Palestine does.
I can't remember who said it, but it went something like this:
When Palestinians will love their children more than they hate Israel we shall have peace.
Well, maybe that's not entirely true. I'm sure a lot of Palestinians also want peace.
Do you know anything about the palestinian & Israelian history? Do you even read anything about Israel? If you did you should know that Israel were always the one who started the war... if they wanted peace, they would have tried something else before attacking the arabic nation during the 6 days war (and not respecting the warning of the europeans nations who told all the country to step back). If you did read anything, you should know that Israel also pushed the arabic nation to go to war during the first arabic-israeli war (1948) with some massacre like the massacre of Deir Yassin. I'm not anti israeli, but come one can't you accept that they also made some belligerant move ? Attacking a ship in the International waters is part of that.
And by the way, Kazius, be serious, Turkey is part of NATO you know...
I think you need to read what i wrote about just who started it, because your history seems to of come out of thin air. As for the six day war, here's a nice quote a few months before, assuring Israel that there needed to be no war and that peace was on the horizon...
speaking to the UN General Assembly in September 1960, Nasser had stated that "The only solution to Palestine is that matters should return to the condition prevailing before the error was committed - i.e., the annulment of Israel's existence." In 1964 he said, "We swear to God that we shall not rest until we restore the Arab nation to Palestine and Palestine to the Arab nation. There is no room for imperialism and there is no room for Britain in our country, just as there is no room for Israel within the Arab nation." In 1965 he asserted, "We shall not enter Palestine with its soil covered in sand, we shall enter it with its soil saturated in blood."
Israel's first strike was just sensible, it was obvious they were going to attack and Israel wanted to get the first hit.
Sorry your history is coming from thin air. First, you think the arabic country would have attacked with all the international telling them not to? Just read something about the position of France before the 6 days war, De Gaule warned everyone that France will take action if they attacked, but Israel attacked because they were backed up by USA.
Second, just read that, you will see that this massacre made most of the palestinian fled to other country, eventually pushing the pressure on the arabic country to launch the attack. Abdullah I of Jordan said that the Deir Yassin massacre changed things, and that the war was now unavoidable. The Hebron massacre is in 1929, the Deir Yassin is in 1948, just before the war... It's obvious which massacre is the most important in the course of event that made the war. I'm sorry man, but you should back up your arguments with some historical fact if you want to make it appears that the arabic country were the only belligerant.
The Arab emergency committee in Jerusalem learned of the attack around nine in the morning of April 9, including reports about the killing of women and children. They requested the help of the British, but did nothing further. In the late afternoon, they started to hear reports of women and children being paraded through the streets of Jerusalem. They sent the prisoners food and again appealed to the British army to intervene, to no avail.[42] Gelber writes that the British were not keen to take on the Irgun and Lehi, who would have fought back if attacked, unlike the Haganah. High Commissioner Sir Allan Cunningham urged that troops be sent to Deir Yassin, but General Sir Gordon MacMillan, commander of the Palestine Forces, said he would risk British lives only in British interests. The RAF commanding officer offered to fire rockets on the Jewish forces in the village, but the light bombers had been sent to Egypt and the rockets to Iraq.[74] Cunningham later said the RAF had brought a squadron of Tempest aircraft from Iraq to bomb the village, but he cancelled the operation when he learned the Haganah had arrived there and had garrisoned it.
On June 12 2010 03:30 Piy wrote: Just gonna say, although this is causing a pretty big stink right now, you can bet that if Palestine had launched an attack on Israel the west would have piled on in and noone would have asked any questions.
It's so unfair the way the Palestinians are being treated.
Both sides committed heinous acts neither side gets a gold star for that.
International pressure didn't stop the Arabic League from attacking at any point, let alone pressure for the ceasefire up until they started loosing.
The arabic locals to the area weren't (by and large) forced out (save by the para-military terrorist strikes), unlike the jewish citizens of the Arabic League. Those that stayed were integrated peacefully. Those that left did so at the direction of the Arabic League countries, both to clear the area of arabs so that they could have a live-fire zone for their upcoming offensive, and due to promises that they would be able to return once Israel was destroyed.
On June 12 2010 04:22 Obsidian wrote: Both sides committed heinous acts neither side gets a gold star for that.
International pressure didn't stop the Arabic League from attacking at any point, let alone pressure for the ceasefire up until they started loosing.
The arabic locals to the area weren't (by and large) forced out (save by the para-military terrorist strikes), unlike the jewish citizens of the Arabic League. Those that stayed were integrated peacefully. Those that left did so at the direction of the Arabic League countries, both to clear the area of arabs so that they could have a live-fire zone for their upcoming offensive, and due to promises that they would be able to return once Israel was destroyed.
LoL ?
Benny Morris writes that, after the war, Israel contrasted its "purity of arms" with the alleged barbarity of the Arab armies, which had engaged in the mutilation of corpses of Jewish prisoners of war. This helped to sell the image of the new Jewish state abroad. In reality, he writes, the Israeli army committed more atrocities and killed more civilians than the Arabs did, in large part because the Israelis captured 400 Arab towns and villages, whereas the Arabs took fewer than a dozen Israeli settlements. The Arabs committed two massacres, according to Morris: 40 workers were killed in the Haifa oil refinery, and 150 Haganah soldiers and local guards in Kfar Etzion who were either unarmed or were surrendering. There was also the destruction of a convoy of doctors and nurses in Jerusalem in April 1948, though Morris regards this as part of a battle, not a stand-alone massacre. There were few reported cases of rape, and few killings of unarmed civilians perpetrated by Arabs.[1] Conversely, there were 12-14 recorded cases of rape carried out by Jewish soldiers, and around 800 killings of unarmed civilians and prisoners-of-war, most of them during massacres in captured villages.
I'm sorry but this prove that, unlike what you said, the Arabic weren't the only one to massacre the civilians as they took villages. Stop trying to say that the arabic were the only bad guys in the affair.
And I'm talking about the 6days war for the international pressure, not the 1948 palestine war. The Israeli started the war by telling that the blockus of the egyptian ships was a cassus belli. But the Israeli wanted the war since they expanded themselves with it. They were not the victims... stop telling that it's untrue.
Udderchaos - so let me get this right, if the arabs attack Israelis are justified in retaliating. If Israel attacks it's pre-emptive self-defence?
edit: Also, I'm sure if we speak to Palestinian/Arabian scholars/historians their version will differ as to "who started it."
But regardless of who started it, the fact is that over the past 50 years or so Israel has very much become the oppressor and they cannot and should not be allowed to act with impunity and defiance of international law and basic human rights. Just like Hamas are held to account, so should Israel be.
On June 11 2010 17:08 OldSkuLL wrote: I am the few turk that doesnt support the whole strategy of Turkey in Middle-East. We support Gazze and Arabs, arabs attacked us from behind in World War 1 with England. And we now help them out, even we know this will cost us blood. Of course there is a specific reason to this. Our government is an islam based party. They want Turkish religinoal emotions to grow up so they can get votes. We lose civilians and soldiers every day in south east anatolia to kurdish terrorists. but government doesnt give a .uck about it. All they think is arabs and the stupid islam. And about israel ... They are child killers. They use chemical weapons on civilians. They kill without having a hesitate. They are seriously not a human being (im not talking about jews). But we are (turks) not the ones that has to stop them. First of all near arab countries should think to save their nations. Not us.
People should really stop saying that... It is much easier to kill people than not kill them. The ship could of been easily sunk without any risk of getting injured soldiers at all. If their goal was just to go and kill people, they could of sunk the ships and killed a lot more people in the process. It's because Israel does show restraint most of the time people forget what real genocide is.
Like I said before in an earlier post, the Gaza strip is a pretty small piece of land with one of the highest population densities in the world(6th according to Wikipedia). The death toll would be much higher if their aim was to exterminate the Palestinians .
Omg you fail so hard to understand the difference between having genetics link and considering a group like a "people". I will try to explain it to you: is there any genetics bound between a 3rd generation american coming from a familly that fled from germany during the WWII and a mexicain american? No, but they still consider themselves as one people: the American "people". A people is not only a question of genetics... is it too hard to understand ? The jews have genetics ties but they do not considered themselves as one "people" before zionism. (For exemple, there are many jews that consider themselves part of the French people or the American people).
UdderChaos: Thank you, I was just writing a useful post for a change, about how war is, in fact (although it may surprise some), ugly and unfair.
I doubt these people know that the US army, for example, has its own cases of civilian killings too. And the soldiers even walked away free! But I am almost certain that they don't know that some IDF troops (as well as US troops) have gone to jail! Oh no, could it really be?! But hey, let's keep repeating a handful of cases and judge the whole institution based on those.
Stop trying to tell us you know war any better than we do.
I think I will stop posting in this thread let's just make everything clear: there is too much difference in value between pro Israel and the rest of us. You have no problem justifying the killing of a 13years old girl with 10 bullets. And the worst part is the guy is not even punished for his crimes. You are crazy.
Yes, I do understand, but as I understood it, it was the racial aspect that was crucial. I don't know enough to argue about the cultural aspect, but the guy isn't an expert on the field, and from what I understand, many experts disagree with him.
You shouldn't think of the neutral people as part of your camp. They aren't. They are neutral. You aren't. And no, I didn't even try to justify the killing of a 13 year old girl. I don't know if I justified it though, probably not. Try again.
On June 12 2010 03:30 Piy wrote: Just gonna say, although this is causing a pretty big stink right now, you can bet that if Palestine had launched an attack on Israel the west would have piled on in and noone would have asked any questions.
It's so unfair the way the Palestinians are being treated.
You know the UN actually said that the Sabra & Shatila massacre was a "genocide" ? What do you think those 4 little bomb (who injured no one and only destroyed some rocks) do if you balance it with this history of violence?
It is a curious way of arguing that you do. He talks about Hamas attacking Israel and media coverage, I show that this happened right after and what coverage followed (barely any). What do you think Sabra and Shatila have to do with this? I should try changing topic all the time too, it seems like fun.
On June 12 2010 03:30 Piy wrote: Just gonna say, although this is causing a pretty big stink right now, you can bet that if Palestine had launched an attack on Israel the west would have piled on in and noone would have asked any questions.
It's so unfair the way the Palestinians are being treated.
On June 12 2010 01:38 Squeegy wrote: How about we are not even discussing the Flotilla here but IDF's "reputation" of killing civilians? You don't have to go farther than Iraq and Afghanistan to find these cases. And the point never was that it's okay, the point was that Israel is not an exception as this is very common during wars.
A track record of committing atrocities and then LYING about it goes a long way towards whether we should give credibility to the IDF's latest claims of innosence.
The fact that they have lied so much in the past AND also in this incident is the reason why I have a very very hard time believing a single thing coming out of their mouth.
But you already know this. You already know how they stole all the evidence and how they are refusing an independent investigation to clear up the matter. I suspect you don't really care what the truth is because Israel must be defended no matter what.
Don't worry, the lies and misinformation activists tendsto sprout has done the same to me!
I dont think i fully understand what on earth you are talking about, but if you seriously support Israel then you must be some uninformed little lapp. Im not saying i support those activists on the boats cus they knew what they were getting themselves into but my point is that Israel time and time again breaks international laws; bombing hospitals, bombing UN-schools the list just goes on and on and every time they come with some lie to protect themselves, i dont hate jews i just hate israel.
Perhaps the reason why I support Israel is because I don't think they intentionally bomb schools*. Have you read about the peace talks at Camp David in 2000? Clinton Paremeters? I suggest you do and see how much Israel really wants peace and how little Palestine does.
I can't remember who said it, but it went something like this:
When Palestinians will love their children more than they hate Israel we shall have peace.
Well, maybe that's not entirely true. I'm sure a lot of Palestinians also want peace.
Do you know anything about the palestinian & Israelian history? Do you even read anything about Israel? If you did you should know that Israel were always the one who started the war... if they wanted peace, they would have tried something else before attacking the arabic nation during the 6 days war (and not respecting the warning of the europeans nations who told all the country to step back). If you did read anything, you should know that Israel also pushed the arabic nation to go to war during the first arabic-israeli war (1948) with some massacre like the massacre of Deir Yassin. I'm not anti israeli, but come one can't you accept that they also made some belligerant move ? Attacking a ship in the International waters is part of that.
And by the way, Kazius, be serious, Turkey is part of NATO you know...
I think you need to read what i wrote about just who started it, because your history seems to of come out of thin air. As for the six day war, here's a nice quote a few months before, assuring Israel that there needed to be no war and that peace was on the horizon...
speaking to the UN General Assembly in September 1960, Nasser had stated that "The only solution to Palestine is that matters should return to the condition prevailing before the error was committed - i.e., the annulment of Israel's existence." In 1964 he said, "We swear to God that we shall not rest until we restore the Arab nation to Palestine and Palestine to the Arab nation. There is no room for imperialism and there is no room for Britain in our country, just as there is no room for Israel within the Arab nation." In 1965 he asserted, "We shall not enter Palestine with its soil covered in sand, we shall enter it with its soil saturated in blood."
Israel's first strike was just sensible, it was obvious they were going to attack and Israel wanted to get the first hit.
Sorry your history is coming from thin air. First, you think the arabic country would have attacked with all the international telling them not to? Just read something about the position of France before the 6 days war, De Gaule warned everyone that France will take action if they attacked, but Israel attacked because they were backed up by USA.
Second, just read that, you will see that this massacre made most of the palestinian fled to other country, eventually pushing the pressure on the arabic country to launch the attack. The Hebron massacre is in 1929, the Deir Yassin is in 1948, just before the war... I'm sorry man, but you should back up your arguments with some historical fact if you want to make it appears that the arabic country were the only belligerant.
I find it funny that you quote an article that even says at the top "The neutrality of this article is disputed" and that the article has actually been locked from editing because of the lack of neutrality until the 13th of June.
Anyways despite that lets actually talk about the conflict your referring to. Firstly the attack wasn't carried out by the Haganah, the jewish army at the time, in fact the majority of the Jewish people and the Haganah condemned the attacks, it was carried out by an extremist group.
In fact i don't even know what i am discussing this with you, did you even read your own dam article, and know who for example the Givat Shaul are? And did you read the part when the people of the village actually protected the Jews against the Arabs?
And instead of just telling me my history is from thin air do you actually feel like addressing any of the things i spoke about, like the Ottoman empire or the Hebron Massacre which was BEFORE this, or perhaps actually want to talk about Amin al-Husayni or are you just going to be really rude, not address anything i said, and just throw around a random massacre that you know nothing about and didn't even read your own article on the subject that you cited?
On June 12 2010 04:30 Klaz wrote: My advice is to not engage with anyone on this debate who's registered since this incident. At least until a month has gone by.
Udderchaos - so let me get this right, if the arabs attack Israelis are justified in retaliating. If Israel attacks it's pre-emptive self-defence?
edit: Also, I'm sure if we speak to Palestinian/Arabian scholars/historians their version will differ as to "who started it."
But regardless of who started it, the fact is that over the past 50 years or so Israel has very much become the oppressor and they cannot and should not be allowed to act with impunity and defiance of international law and basic human rights. Just like Hamas are held to account, so should Israel be.
I think the atrocities on both sides are terrible, i agree with that, and that Israel is in the position of power, with the US backing, but i think that Israel is not the blockade to peace, sure they are far too aggressive and by no means innocent, but from the history you can see that the Arabic nations did start the wars and aggression to start with and put Israel in a difficult position, and in fact most of the adults in the country grew up in Israel and have lived in fear because of the numerous wars, which have breeded the hate that allows them to commit the atrocities, but at the end of the day Israel is not firing rockets into Gaza, they are only responding, disproportionately yes, but still only responding to what the other groups do to them. Most of the land taken which isn't theirs, if not all, is after wars waged against them.
On June 12 2010 01:38 Squeegy wrote: How about we are not even discussing the Flotilla here but IDF's "reputation" of killing civilians? You don't have to go farther than Iraq and Afghanistan to find these cases. And the point never was that it's okay, the point was that Israel is not an exception as this is very common during wars.
A track record of committing atrocities and then LYING about it goes a long way towards whether we should give credibility to the IDF's latest claims of innosence.
The fact that they have lied so much in the past AND also in this incident is the reason why I have a very very hard time believing a single thing coming out of their mouth.
But you already know this. You already know how they stole all the evidence and how they are refusing an independent investigation to clear up the matter. I suspect you don't really care what the truth is because Israel must be defended no matter what.
Don't worry, the lies and misinformation activists tendsto sprout has done the same to me!
I dont think i fully understand what on earth you are talking about, but if you seriously support Israel then you must be some uninformed little lapp. Im not saying i support those activists on the boats cus they knew what they were getting themselves into but my point is that Israel time and time again breaks international laws; bombing hospitals, bombing UN-schools the list just goes on and on and every time they come with some lie to protect themselves, i dont hate jews i just hate israel.
Perhaps the reason why I support Israel is because I don't think they intentionally bomb schools*. Have you read about the peace talks at Camp David in 2000? Clinton Paremeters? I suggest you do and see how much Israel really wants peace and how little Palestine does.
I can't remember who said it, but it went something like this:
When Palestinians will love their children more than they hate Israel we shall have peace.
Well, maybe that's not entirely true. I'm sure a lot of Palestinians also want peace.
Do you know anything about the palestinian & Israelian history? Do you even read anything about Israel? If you did you should know that Israel were always the one who started the war... if they wanted peace, they would have tried something else before attacking the arabic nation during the 6 days war (and not respecting the warning of the europeans nations who told all the country to step back). If you did read anything, you should know that Israel also pushed the arabic nation to go to war during the first arabic-israeli war (1948) with some massacre like the massacre of Deir Yassin. I'm not anti israeli, but come one can't you accept that they also made some belligerant move ? Attacking a ship in the International waters is part of that.
A good proof of how your emotions are getting the best of you is the part I bolded. I have mentioned Benny Morris already in this thread, and if you haven't spend all your time reading nonsense like that Invention book, you should know that he hasn't been afraid to expose massacres commited by Israel. I am very well aware that Israel is not perfect. Oh and keep telling yourself that (that you're not anti-Israeli).
On June 12 2010 04:30 Klaz wrote: My advice is to not engage with anyone on this debate who's registered since this incident. At least until a month has gone by.
Udderchaos - so let me get this right, if the arabs attack Israelis are justified in retaliating. If Israel attacks it's pre-emptive self-defence?
edit: Also, I'm sure if we speak to Palestinian/Arabian scholars/historians their version will differ as to "who started it."
But regardless of who started it, the fact is that over the past 50 years or so Israel has very much become the oppressor and they cannot and should not be allowed to act with impunity and defiance of international law and basic human rights. Just like Hamas are held to account, so should Israel be.
You mean oppression like offering Palestinians a pretty good deal a few years back? I must say Israel is the nicest oppressor ever!
I find it funny that you quote an article that even says at the top "The neutrality of this article is disputed" and that the article has actually been locked from editing because of the lack of neutrality until the 13th of June.
And what? It is still online so it seems to be true. You saying that the Hebron massacre (1929) proved that the arabic hate the jews and wanted to "kill them all" is certainly neutral.
Anyways despite that lets actually talk about the conflict your referring to. Firstly the attack wasn't carried out by the Haganah, the jewish army at the time, in fact the majority of the Jewish people and the Haganah condemned the attacks, it was carried out by an extremist group.
I don't care who they are. And I know the jewish army was not linked to the massacre. Did it change anything about what i'm saying ? The jews at the moment used the massacre to terrories the palestinian and made them flee. Some years ago, they said "a land without a people, a people without a land"... Please.
In fact i don't even know what i am discussing this with you, did you even read your own dam article, and know who for example the Givat Shaul are? And did you read the part when the people of the village actually protected the Jews against the Arabs?
Sorry man, I don't understand you. I'm just saying that the arabs did not want to "kill all the jews", but that they gone to war with some meanings. What does it have to do with the Givat Shaul village, having a peace treaty with Deir Yassin and being protected by them? What I'm saying is that, due to Deir Yassin, all the arabic nation were pushed further to war.
Can't you understand basic things? Did you just understand that Deir Yassin was a muslim village? It's just an exemple that I am giving to you to explain you that the arabs are not the "big villain".
On June 12 2010 01:38 Squeegy wrote: How about we are not even discussing the Flotilla here but IDF's "reputation" of killing civilians? You don't have to go farther than Iraq and Afghanistan to find these cases. And the point never was that it's okay, the point was that Israel is not an exception as this is very common during wars.
A track record of committing atrocities and then LYING about it goes a long way towards whether we should give credibility to the IDF's latest claims of innosence.
The fact that they have lied so much in the past AND also in this incident is the reason why I have a very very hard time believing a single thing coming out of their mouth.
But you already know this. You already know how they stole all the evidence and how they are refusing an independent investigation to clear up the matter. I suspect you don't really care what the truth is because Israel must be defended no matter what.
Don't worry, the lies and misinformation activists tendsto sprout has done the same to me!
I dont think i fully understand what on earth you are talking about, but if you seriously support Israel then you must be some uninformed little lapp. Im not saying i support those activists on the boats cus they knew what they were getting themselves into but my point is that Israel time and time again breaks international laws; bombing hospitals, bombing UN-schools the list just goes on and on and every time they come with some lie to protect themselves, i dont hate jews i just hate israel.
Perhaps the reason why I support Israel is because I don't think they intentionally bomb schools*. Have you read about the peace talks at Camp David in 2000? Clinton Paremeters? I suggest you do and see how much Israel really wants peace and how little Palestine does.
I can't remember who said it, but it went something like this:
When Palestinians will love their children more than they hate Israel we shall have peace.
Well, maybe that's not entirely true. I'm sure a lot of Palestinians also want peace.
Do you know anything about the palestinian & Israelian history? Do you even read anything about Israel? If you did you should know that Israel were always the one who started the war... if they wanted peace, they would have tried something else before attacking the arabic nation during the 6 days war (and not respecting the warning of the europeans nations who told all the country to step back). If you did read anything, you should know that Israel also pushed the arabic nation to go to war during the first arabic-israeli war (1948) with some massacre like the massacre of Deir Yassin. I'm not anti israeli, but come one can't you accept that they also made some belligerant move ? Attacking a ship in the International waters is part of that.
A good proof of how your emotions are getting the best of you is the part I bolded. I have mentioned Benny Morris already in this thread, and if you haven't spend all your time reading nonsense like that Invention book, you should know that he hasn't been afraid to expose massacres commited by Israel. I am very well aware that Israel is not perfect. Oh and keep telling yourself that (that you're not anti-Israeli).
Lol keep telling yourself that you are not anti-palestinian. I know Benny Morris (I quoted some of his work just three post before), the Invention is also a book made by an israeli you know. I know full well that some israeli historian exposed the massacres comitted by Israel. What I'm saying is that the arabic country are not the only who are attacking. You are so pro israel that you cannot even respond to me about the fact that during all of the israel vs arab wars, Israel always had territory objectiv.
On June 12 2010 04:44 ArKaDo wrote: Can't you understand basic things? It's just an exemple that I am giving to you to explain you that the arabs are not the "big villain".
Well you clearly can't understand basic english and I'm supposed to be dyslexic!, but that's beside the point.
I don't think that the arabs are the big villains, i just think that a certain groups of them are malicious in their attitude towards jews and want to kill them, and they influence the masses who have their own valid reasons for having lighter anger feelings for the jews, and that in general the jewish people want a more peaceful solution than certain arabs do.
I don't care who they are. And I know the jewish army was not linked to the massacre. Did it change anything about what i'm saying ? The jews at the moment used the massacre to terrories the Palestinian and made them flee.
Again you still haven't read the article about what happened, where the JEWISH people helped to protect the village, and that the Arabs at the time had a massive blockade on Jerusalem which the Jewish people were trying to break, and that the extremist group actually thought that the villagers would flee when they saw the fighter planes, leaving only the Arab army, but the villagers confused it for a normal raid from a random group so they fought back. Also the Jewish aggression group at one point tried to help the wounded civilians who mistakenly fought back out by making makeshift stretchers to help them to safety and medical aid, and the other villagers started to SHOOT them carrying the wounded. Again READ YOUR OWN ARTICLE before arguing, thats a basic thing to understand isn't it? Edit: also your use of "the Jews used it to terrorize the Palestinians" is wrong as well, most jews condemned the attacks and some of them, the Givat Shaul, even fought against the attack.
You still have failed to address the history i wrote about about 2 pages back, and you said "What I'm saying is that, due to Deir Yassin, all the arabic nation were pushed further to war." What your saying is that the Arabic nations were pushed to war when you don't actually have a clue about the history at all, that's what your saying.
And frankly, I find the vast majority of your arguments to revolve around this kind of circular logic and strawmaning and presenting IDF claims as de-facto evidence and so didn't really see the point of trying to have a logical discussion with you.
Then don't, at this point it's obviously you don't like others opinion and have to aggressively hostile about it. Way to be insulting, want to call me what you want while you're at it? Were we not warned about aggression?
You claimed there were terrorists on board the Mavi Mamara. This claim was based on the fact that the IDF claimed there were terrorists on board. I told you that the IDF saying it does not make it so (as they have a track record of lying) and asked you to supply evidence that there were in fact terrorists. Furthermore, I showed you clear examples of how the IDF's claims have been thoroughly debunked
Under Scrutiny, IDF Retracts Claims About Flotilla’s Al Qaeda Links
You responded to this by posting YET ANOTHER Claim by the IDF, this time a list of 6 passengers they CLAIMED were terrorists (without any corroborating evidence) and then expected me to refute this "evidence." Now I have neither the time nor the inclination to spend hours demonstrating to you how the IDF's claims that the passengers were terrorists cannot be used as evidence of these claims. This is known as circular logic. This is besides the fact that I've demonstrated repeatedly the IDF's track record for lying and yet you continue to ignore this and still treat there word as gospel. You also don't seem to realise the difference between a military organisation such as the IDF with a heirachical structure and the disparate collection of individuals and groups that made up the flotilla.
Actually no I didn't. I first responded with the list, then WENT ON to elaborate. Well then don't spend the time, then don't challenge it. I don't care either way, it's NOT my problem. I don't think the military structure actually matters. haha no that's not circular logic, what is because the IDF has lied, therefore they lie here is CIRCULAR LOGIC. That's also a fallacious because they have lied before they cannot tell the truth. Wither the IDF is a lieing organization to me is irrelevant because all I need to know about the videos is wither they are edited and what they show. Hint hint, I'm not treating there word as gospel, I've stated and not debated several things they have done.
Then you make this other claim about how the activists were not peaceful. I've stated repeatedly that I believe they were acting in self-defence. (now let's for a second ignore the fact that if someone boards your ship in international waters you have a right to defend yourself)
And I've stated that we don't know the beginning, and with that said, the flotilla put themselves on a pedestal as a PEACEFUL organization, Martin Luther crowd didn't react violently when treated with violence. Because of that they had the utmost duty to watch there actions. I've also stated that the pictures and videos MAKE then look un-peaceful. So this is the dilemma, we have a difference of opinion.
Your arguement seems to be this: They had knives and used violence ----> therefore they are not peaceful ---->.. therefore it is not self-defense. Yet in the very SAME breath, you make the argument that an elite military unit with advanced weaponry killed people in same defence. If by your logic people having knives shows they are not acting in self-defence then how can you claim that people with guns did act in self-defence. This again is circular logic.
You see, that's not just my argument. Mine is based upon videos that show them singing hateful song, one guy and women characterizing that they may become martyrs. Pictures/vids showing them engaging in violence. Unless you ignoring those points, don't miss-characterize my view. Paintball guns anyone, tear gas, rubber bullets? Throwing off boats, racial remarks being thrown around? OH don't forget that video of them shooting slingshots (stupid) after a gunshot is shown (wither this is at a person or a warning shot I do not know).
Finally, for your benefit I will list the number of times the IDF has been caught lying in this incident alone.
The boy who cries wolf, will cry for the actual wolf eventually, I could REALLY go after some of the sources you are using but I'm not. Major point to take into account.
They claimed they had only fired at the passengers after the passengers had shot at them first. When it was shown that the passengers didn't have guns, and only got guns from the commandos who had been attacking them, they were forced yet again to retract the lie.
Interesting, it escapes me right now, could you provide an link to the claim?
The released an audio trying to show the people on the mavi mamara as nazi racists. This audio was shown to have been edited by the IDF, with a previous version having no reference to the incriminating remarks. And to top it off, the person who supposedly made the remarks wasn't even on the ship to begin with. (and please don't make me spell out how easy it is to take words from people's speeches of the past and insert them into an audio clip, which is why the fact that the audio was edited is so significant).
I specifically DEALT with this one. Go back and read that section that you ignored. Spell it out since you seem to think you have a better understanding then me.
The IDF claimed that their soldiers only had paintball guns at first, a claim that was discredited by a former US ambassador.
I could REALLY CARE LESS for what a Us ambassador says. The fact is THEY DID use paint ball guns. Yeah it kinda obviously they didn't use them later. Personally I REALLY know what a paintball gun looks like and pointed out one, in one of the videos (the hopper really is noticeable).
From an earlier post. Everyone remember this video? Remember when it was said they used paint ball guns? Looks to be true. It's at 0.56
But they keep making more claims and you keep presenting them as defacto evidence
And your using eye witnesses as the defacto source for your point. Such a dilemma.
My advice is to not engage with anyone on this debate who's registered since this incident. At least until a month has gone by.
Accusation, good one. Stawman much? Regardless you very well know that doesn't add to the discussion. Again I say, if you really fell that way then just don't post.Obviously if you really don't want to hold a standard here it would be in your best interest not to post. Month has gone by, that's not logical or practical.
On June 12 2010 04:44 ArKaDo wrote: Can't you understand basic things? It's just an exemple that I am giving to you to explain you that the arabs are not the "big villain".
Well you clearly can't understand basic english and I'm supposed to be dyslexic!, but that's beside the point.
I don't think that the arabs are the big villains, i just think that a certain groups of them are malicious in their attitude towards jews and want to kill them, and they influence the masses who have their own valid reasons for having lighter anger feelings for the jews, and that in general the jewish people want a more peaceful solution than certain arabs do.
I don't care who they are. And I know the jewish army was not linked to the massacre. Did it change anything about what i'm saying ? The jews at the moment used the massacre to terrories the Palestinian and made them flee.
Again you still haven't read the article about what happened, where the JEWISH people helped to protect the village, and that the Arabs at the time had a massive blockade on Jerusalem which the Jewish people were trying to break, and that the extremist group actually thought that the villagers would flee when they saw the fighter planes, leaving only the Arab army, but the villagers confused it for a normal raid from a random group so they fought back. Also the Jewish aggression group at one point tried to help the wounded civilians who mistakenly fought back out by making makeshift stretchers to help them to safety and medical aid, and the other villagers started to SHOOT them carrying the wounded. Again READ YOUR OWN ARTICLE before arguing, thats a basic thing to understand isn't it? Edit: also your use of "the Jews used it to terrorize the Palestinians" is wrong as well, most jews condemned the attacks and some of them, the Givat Shaul, even fought against the attack.
You still have failed to address the history i wrote about about 2 pages back, and you said "What I'm saying is that, due to Deir Yassin, all the arabic nation were pushed further to war." What your saying is that the Arabic nations were pushed to war when you don't actually have a clue about the history at all, that's what your saying.
Some of the part you said are not in my article since i read it in french. So that's maybe why. In french it is said that the village had no strategical value. Almost every jews historian explained the impact of the massacre so it must be true. Most jews condemned it, yes, but not everyone, and that does not change the fact that it pushed the palestinian to exodus and pushed the arabic neighbour to come in the conflict?
Panic overwhelmed the Arabs of Eretz Israel. Kolonia village, which had previously repulsed every attack of the Haganah, was evacuated overnight and fell without further fighting. Beit-Iksa was also evacuated. These two places overlooked the main road; and their fall, together with the capture of al-Qastal by the Haganah, made it possible to keep open the road to Jerusalem. In the rest of the country, too, the Arabs began to flee in terror, even before they clashed with Jewish forces. Not what happened at Deir Yassin, but what was invented about Deir Yassin, helped to carve the way to our decisive victories on the battlefield ... The legend was worth half a dozen battalions to the forces of Israel.
The jewish helped them and WHAT? The Deir Yassin also helped them by refusing the arabic army to come and put their army.
Damn you're a hard head guy... can you just go ON SUBJECT? The subject is: this massacre pushed the arabic country to war
The Deir Yassin attack, along with attacks on Tiberias, Haifa, and Jaffa, put pressure on Arab governments to invade Palestine. News of the killings had aroused public anger in the Arab world, which the governments felt unable to ignore.[89] Syria's foreign minister remarked that the Arab public's desire for war was irresistible. The arrival of tens of thousands of refugees further convinced them to act. A consensus favoring invasion began to emerge the day after Deir Yassin, at a meeting on April 10 in Cairo of the Arab League Political Committee.
I don't understand your point, what is the meaning behind telling me that some jews helped them and that jerusalem was facing a blockade at the moment? I'm just telling you the importance of this massacre in the course of action, putting the finger on this specifical event to show you how the Jews also made some massacre and how it pushed others country to war. It's not just some arabs telling themselves "OK fuck let's kill them all".
In 1949, despite protests, the Jerusalem neighborhood of Givat Shaul Bet was built on what had been Deir Yassin's land, now considered part of Har Nof, an Orthodox area. Four Jewish scholars, Martin Buber, Ernst Simon, Werner Senator, and Cecil Roth, wrote to Israel's first prime minister, David Ben-Gurion, asking that Deir Yassin be left uninhabited, or that its settlement be postponed. They wrote that it had become "infamous throughout the Jewish world, the Arab world and the whole world." Settling the land so soon after the killings would amount to an endorsement of them. Ben-Gurion failed to respond, though the correspondents sent him copy after copy. Eventually his secretary replied that he had been too busy to read their letter.
On June 12 2010 01:38 Squeegy wrote: How about we are not even discussing the Flotilla here but IDF's "reputation" of killing civilians? You don't have to go farther than Iraq and Afghanistan to find these cases. And the point never was that it's okay, the point was that Israel is not an exception as this is very common during wars.
A track record of committing atrocities and then LYING about it goes a long way towards whether we should give credibility to the IDF's latest claims of innosence.
The fact that they have lied so much in the past AND also in this incident is the reason why I have a very very hard time believing a single thing coming out of their mouth.
But you already know this. You already know how they stole all the evidence and how they are refusing an independent investigation to clear up the matter. I suspect you don't really care what the truth is because Israel must be defended no matter what.
Don't worry, the lies and misinformation activists tendsto sprout has done the same to me!
I dont think i fully understand what on earth you are talking about, but if you seriously support Israel then you must be some uninformed little lapp. Im not saying i support those activists on the boats cus they knew what they were getting themselves into but my point is that Israel time and time again breaks international laws; bombing hospitals, bombing UN-schools the list just goes on and on and every time they come with some lie to protect themselves, i dont hate jews i just hate israel.
Perhaps the reason why I support Israel is because I don't think they intentionally bomb schools*. Have you read about the peace talks at Camp David in 2000? Clinton Paremeters? I suggest you do and see how much Israel really wants peace and how little Palestine does.
I can't remember who said it, but it went something like this:
When Palestinians will love their children more than they hate Israel we shall have peace.
Well, maybe that's not entirely true. I'm sure a lot of Palestinians also want peace.
Do you know anything about the palestinian & Israelian history? Do you even read anything about Israel? If you did you should know that Israel were always the one who started the war... if they wanted peace, they would have tried something else before attacking the arabic nation during the 6 days war (and not respecting the warning of the europeans nations who told all the country to step back). If you did read anything, you should know that Israel also pushed the arabic nation to go to war during the first arabic-israeli war (1948) with some massacre like the massacre of Deir Yassin. I'm not anti israeli, but come one can't you accept that they also made some belligerant move ? Attacking a ship in the International waters is part of that.
A good proof of how your emotions are getting the best of you is the part I bolded. I have mentioned Benny Morris already in this thread, and if you haven't spend all your time reading nonsense like that Invention book, you should know that he hasn't been afraid to expose massacres commited by Israel. I am very well aware that Israel is not perfect. Oh and keep telling yourself that (that you're not anti-Israeli).
Lol keep telling yourself that you are not anti-palestinian. I know Benny Morris (I quoted some of his work just three post before), the Invention is also a book made by an israeli you know. I know full well that some israeli historian exposed the massacres comitted by Israel. What I'm saying is that the arabic country are not the only who are attacking. You are so pro israel that you cannot even respond to me about the fact that during all of the israel vs arab wars, Israel always had territory objectiv.
I'm more neutral than you are man. ;X
You should try inventing less and reading more.
1) I never stated I am not anti-Palestinian. 2) Shlomo being an Israeli is neither news or an issue to me. 3) You have been explicitly stating that Israel has been the one attacking. I haven't seen you critize Arabs even once. Don't believe me? Look up what you've been writing and then attempt to provide me with a quote that disproves this. I dare you. 4) I am not sure what you mean? That they fought the wars only for territory? Or they wanted to grab land, especially after it came clear that they would win?
EPT
