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qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-05 00:05:01
October 04 2011 23:58 GMT
#1681
On October 05 2011 08:55 EvilNalu wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
I think that greggy has pretty much killed your 19.f3 line. Black should probably immediately take 19...gxf3 to avoid any Nxf5 tactics after greggy's 19.f3 Ba6 20Ne3 exf3 line.

So, after 19...gxf3 20.gxf3 Ba6 21. Ne3 f4 22.Nd5 (Nf5 just leaves a similar position with a less well placed knight) 22...g5, black threatens lots of things. First, the f3 pawn is weak and Be2 will win it. Second, once the knight is removed from d5 (either by white's choice or by Bc4 or similar) black will be able to play Ke6, c5 and win the e pawn. Here are some lines:

23. Nc3 (preventing Be2) 23...Bc4 (stopping Nxa4) 24.Kf2 (it's actually pretty hard to come up with useful moves here already) 24...Ke6, there is no way to stop c5 where black wins back the pawn and his bishops become splendid.

23.Kf2 goes to pretty much the same thing after 23...Rb3 24.Nc3 Bb7 and then 25...Ke6

23.Nxe7 lines are just terrible after 23...Kxe7 24.Rb1 (the only thing I see that even looks like an attempt to get out of the bind) 24...Rb3 25.Kf2 Bb7 when 26...c5 is coming and black picks up the f pawn at his leisure.
Looks like we cross-posted our responses to greggy's last. We'll probably be reading each others responses at the same time. I'll edit this post with my response to your lines once I've looked at them.

Edit: OK, I've read them now. We independently came up with the identical moves through move 23 (including the detour at move 20), which I think is a good sign that neither of us is off his rocker. :-)

At move 24, I think that you've missed the strength of the move I suggested+ Show Spoiler +
24. Bd2
I'll wait for your response to see what you think about it.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
EvilNalu
Profile Joined May 2010
United States91 Posts
October 05 2011 00:12 GMT
#1682
+ Show Spoiler +
Generally speaking, I think the problem we are having on deciding between Nxe4 and 0-0 is that greggy and I think, based on principle, that 0-0 should be better. Now, of course that is a dangerous way to play, especially in correspondence games, but sometimes you just can't analyze everything. I think in every line we look at after Nxe4, the deeper I go, the more I like black and the more I see that white remains in an awkward bind. This makes me think my initial feel was accurate. However, I just don't think we will have enough time to exhaust every line so we are not likely to change your mind at this point.

Also, I have been analyzing a lot of 14.0-0 lines and if I'm perfectly honest it does not look much better there. The d5 pawn constricts us nearly as much as the e4 pawn does. However, I think the lines are a bit better for white because black's powerful light squared bishop is significantly less active with his pawn on d5.
EvilNalu
Profile Joined May 2010
United States91 Posts
October 05 2011 00:15 GMT
#1683
On October 05 2011 08:58 qrs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 05 2011 08:55 EvilNalu wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
I think that greggy has pretty much killed your 19.f3 line. Black should probably immediately take 19...gxf3 to avoid any Nxf5 tactics after greggy's 19.f3 Ba6 20Ne3 exf3 line.

So, after 19...gxf3 20.gxf3 Ba6 21. Ne3 f4 22.Nd5 (Nf5 just leaves a similar position with a less well placed knight) 22...g5, black threatens lots of things. First, the f3 pawn is weak and Be2 will win it. Second, once the knight is removed from d5 (either by white's choice or by Bc4 or similar) black will be able to play Ke6, c5 and win the e pawn. Here are some lines:

23. Nc3 (preventing Be2) 23...Bc4 (stopping Nxa4) 24.Kf2 (it's actually pretty hard to come up with useful moves here already) 24...Ke6, there is no way to stop c5 where black wins back the pawn and his bishops become splendid.

23.Kf2 goes to pretty much the same thing after 23...Rb3 24.Nc3 Bb7 and then 25...Ke6

23.Nxe7 lines are just terrible after 23...Kxe7 24.Rb1 (the only thing I see that even looks like an attempt to get out of the bind) 24...Rb3 25.Kf2 Bb7 when 26...c5 is coming and black picks up the f pawn at his leisure.
Looks like we cross-posted our responses to greggy's last. We'll probably be reading each others responses at the same time. I'll edit this post with my response to your lines once I've looked at them.

Edit: OK, I've read them now. We independently came up with the identical moves through move 23 (including the detour at move 20), which I think is a good sign that neither of us is off his rocker. :-)

At move 24, I think that you've missed the strength of the move I suggested+ Show Spoiler +
24. Bd2
I'll wait for your response to see what you think about it.

+ Show Spoiler +
I must disagree vehemently. Your 23rd for black is no good and the reason you think white is OK in this line. Please see my analysis after 23...Bc4, also 23...Rb3 or even 23...Ke6 are both much better than 23...Bb5?
mastergriggy
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1312 Posts
October 05 2011 00:22 GMT
#1684
14. Nxe4

+ Show Spoiler +
I haven't analyzed too much of this position, but I followed Qrs's line through and I don't see something better for black (I read greggy's analysis as well). So I'm gonna stick with this and see where it goes because I like the end results.
Write your own song!
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-05 00:35:11
October 05 2011 00:33 GMT
#1685
On October 05 2011 09:15 EvilNalu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 05 2011 08:58 qrs wrote:
On October 05 2011 08:55 EvilNalu wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
I think that greggy has pretty much killed your 19.f3 line. Black should probably immediately take 19...gxf3 to avoid any Nxf5 tactics after greggy's 19.f3 Ba6 20Ne3 exf3 line.

So, after 19...gxf3 20.gxf3 Ba6 21. Ne3 f4 22.Nd5 (Nf5 just leaves a similar position with a less well placed knight) 22...g5, black threatens lots of things. First, the f3 pawn is weak and Be2 will win it. Second, once the knight is removed from d5 (either by white's choice or by Bc4 or similar) black will be able to play Ke6, c5 and win the e pawn. Here are some lines:

23. Nc3 (preventing Be2) 23...Bc4 (stopping Nxa4) 24.Kf2 (it's actually pretty hard to come up with useful moves here already) 24...Ke6, there is no way to stop c5 where black wins back the pawn and his bishops become splendid.

23.Kf2 goes to pretty much the same thing after 23...Rb3 24.Nc3 Bb7 and then 25...Ke6

23.Nxe7 lines are just terrible after 23...Kxe7 24.Rb1 (the only thing I see that even looks like an attempt to get out of the bind) 24...Rb3 25.Kf2 Bb7 when 26...c5 is coming and black picks up the f pawn at his leisure.
Looks like we cross-posted our responses to greggy's last. We'll probably be reading each others responses at the same time. I'll edit this post with my response to your lines once I've looked at them.

Edit: OK, I've read them now. We independently came up with the identical moves through move 23 (including the detour at move 20), which I think is a good sign that neither of us is off his rocker. :-)

At move 24, I think that you've missed the strength of the move I suggested+ Show Spoiler +
24. Bd2
I'll wait for your response to see what you think about it.

+ Show Spoiler +
I must disagree vehemently. Your 23rd for black is no good and the reason you think white is OK in this line. Please see my analysis after 23...Bc4, also 23...Rb3 or even 23...Ke6 are both much better than 23...Bb5?
Heh, I'd begun to write a response to your last post, but it seems that there's still more analysis to be done. I'll look at your lines now and edit this post with my response when I'm done.

In the meantime, I apologize for misreading your original post: I just saw the words "stopping ___" and assumed you had the same 23rd move in mind that I had (and we all know, "when you assume, etc.") Thanks for correcting me.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
greggy
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom1483 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-05 00:50:01
October 05 2011 00:34 GMT
#1686
+ Show Spoiler +
I actually forgot about that one line discussed by EvilNalu 3 posts above: 23. Nc3 Ke6 24. Kf2 c5 is atrocious for white; 23. .. Bc4 is even better in fact.



On October 05 2011 09:12 EvilNalu wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Generally speaking, I think the problem we are having on deciding between Nxe4 and 0-0 is that greggy and I think, based on principle, that 0-0 should be better. Now, of course that is a dangerous way to play, especially in correspondence games, but sometimes you just can't analyze everything. I think in every line we look at after Nxe4, the deeper I go, the more I like black and the more I see that white remains in an awkward bind. This makes me think my initial feel was accurate. However, I just don't think we will have enough time to exhaust every line so we are not likely to change your mind at this point.

Also, I have been analyzing a lot of 14.0-0 lines and if I'm perfectly honest it does not look much better there. The d5 pawn constricts us nearly as much as the e4 pawn does. However, I think the lines are a bit better for white because black's powerful light squared bishop is significantly less active with his pawn on d5.

Agree 100%.

P.S. + Show Spoiler +
The only reason I even started analysing Nxe4 was because I thought it was pretty bad and was trying to find holes in the lines following. And there are far too many for my liking.


P.P.S. + Show Spoiler [actually important] +
Another reason as to why I like 14. O-O is that it, to an extent at least, forces black to show his hand. It's important to see where black wants to go with this as we've wasted our time analysed a fair share of lines that aren't going to come up. I'll look into particular variations of 14. O-O tomorrow.
dtvu
Profile Joined March 2010
Australia687 Posts
October 05 2011 00:54 GMT
#1687
14. Nxe4

+ Show Spoiler +
The more I look at this move, the more I like it. 14.0-0 lack initiative and would feel as though we are playing black and on the back foot. Going with qrs with this one.

qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-05 02:52:27
October 05 2011 01:59 GMT
#1688
I need to take a break from analysis, I think: I've been doing this for too long.

About the most recent correction by EvilNalu and greggy: I took the amended line as far as this:
+ Show Spoiler [position] +
After 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. O-O Rd8 17. Rd1 a5 18. Nc4 a4 19. f3 Ba6 20. Ne3 exf3 21. gxf3 f4 22. Nd5 g5 23. Nc3 Bc4 24. d5 Bc5+ 25. Kg2
[image loading]
Black to play
where I have to admit that the position is at best unclear. greggy and EvilNalu would probably call it "won for Black". I'm more optimistic than they are, but Black does have a lot of pressure on White in this line, and it's hard to see a clear way forward for White. At minimum, this position would require a lot more analysis before we could feel confident enough to risk it.

If this position is one that we want to avoid, then it's a refutation of + Show Spoiler +
18. Nc4 or 19. f3
rather than of 14. Nxe4. There are a lot of other things that we can try at the branching point: we haven't really done more than scratch the surface of this game. Just for one example, EvilNalu made an emendation to greggy's move order in moves 19-21 in order to avoid an unclear tactical line, but in closing one door, he opened another. + Show Spoiler +
e.g. 19. f3 exf3 20. e6+!?
There are also more patient plans we can try. + Show Spoiler +
e.g. 18. Nf1


In short, 14. Nxe4 is far from refuted, but at the same time, it leads to complications that we haven't gotten to the bottom of. Meanwhile, there's been a lot of talk about 14. 0-0 but comparatively little analysis posted for it. I'll be interested to see what greggy and/or EvilNalu post in that line.

At this point, I feel that I don't have enough information to make an educated vote, so rather than turn into a partisan, I'm going to change my vote to abstain for now and cast it again when we know a little more about the position.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
October 05 2011 05:27 GMT
#1689
Here's a new idea:
+ Show Spoiler +
14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. O-O Rd8 17. Rd1 a5 18. Nc4 a4 19. d5
Eh, I'm going to bring my vote back to Nxe4.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
greggy
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom1483 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-05 10:42:16
October 05 2011 10:40 GMT
#1690
+ Show Spoiler +
14. Nxe4 ef 15. Ng1

How 'bout that -.- Might post a few lines after lunch.


14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. O-O Rd8 17. Rd1 a5 18. Nc4 a4 19. f3 Ba6 20. Ne3 exf3 21. gxf3 f4 22. Nd5 g5 23. Nc3 Bc4 24. d5 Bc5+ 25. Kg2

So, how did the king end up on f2 to be checked in the first place?
Bill Murray
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States9292 Posts
October 05 2011 10:56 GMT
#1691
14. 0-0
University of Kentucky Basketball #1
EnderSword
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada669 Posts
October 05 2011 11:08 GMT
#1692
14. Nxe4

+ Show Spoiler +
I think this actually can lead us to trading a knight for the the strikes the colour our King will be castled to, leaving us with off-colour bishops and a castled king against his exposed one.
Bronze/Silver/Gold level Guides - www.youtube.com/user/EnderSword
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
October 05 2011 13:44 GMT
#1693
On October 05 2011 19:40 greggy wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
14. Nxe4 ef 15. Ng1

How 'bout that -.- Might post a few lines after lunch.


14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. O-O Rd8 17. Rd1 a5 18. Nc4 a4 19. f3 Ba6 20. Ne3 exf3 21. gxf3 f4 22. Nd5 g5 23. Nc3 Bc4 24. d5 Bc5+ 25. Kg2

So, how did the king end up on f2 to be checked in the first place?

+ Show Spoiler +
On October 05 2011 19:40 greggy wrote:
14. Nxe4 ef 15. Ng1

How 'bout that -.- Might post a few lines after lunch.
Hmm, counter-intuitive, but an interesting idea. I'm assuming your plan is to post the Knight on e2, where it can defend the d-pawn.

I'm not sure we can afford to waste much time castling in the 14. Nxe4 line, though. How do you plan to respond to 15... Ba6, preventing castling, and targeting e2 in case we post the Knight there (and where else would we want to post it?)?
14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. O-O Rd8 17. Rd1 a5 18. Nc4 a4 19. f3 Ba6 20. Ne3 exf3 21. gxf3 f4 22. Nd5 g5 23. Nc3 Bc4 24. d5 Bc5+ 25. Kg2

So, how did the king end up on f2 to be checked in the first place?
He was on g1, as he'd been since castling.

Incidentally, I don't know what you're using to move the pieces around when you analyze, but I've been using http://apronus.com/chess/wbeditor.php. If you have a well-formatted (PGN notation) move list starting at move 1, you can just paste it into the right-hand text box and click "Absorb FEN/PGN" and the game will load for you automatically. That's why I've been using notation like "O-O" instead of "0-0" and "exf3" instead of your more condensed "ef".
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
Mash2
Profile Joined February 2011
United States132 Posts
October 05 2011 14:38 GMT
#1694
0-0
"Quite often the flood of history is undammed or diverted by the character and actions of one man." - Pat Frank, "Alas, Babylon"
mastergriggy
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1312 Posts
October 05 2011 14:55 GMT
#1695
On October 05 2011 14:27 qrs wrote:
Here's a new idea:
+ Show Spoiler +
14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. O-O Rd8 17. Rd1 a5 18. Nc4 a4 19. d5
Eh, I'm going to bring my vote back to Nxe4.



Further analysis of your line Qrs:

+ Show Spoiler +
following qrs's line through 19,

19...Ke8 (I think that is black's by far best move) 20. Be3 Ba6 21. Rac1 Rb3 22. e6 looks good for white.

Other black alternatives:
19...Ba6 20. Na5 Bb5 21. e6+ Ke8 22. Bf4 Bd6 23. Bxd6 cxd6 24. Rd2 Rdc8 and maybe 25. b4 for white? Either way I think white has an advantage.
Write your own song!
Malinor
Profile Joined November 2008
Germany4722 Posts
October 05 2011 15:15 GMT
#1696
14. 0-0
"Withstand. Suffer. Live as you must now live. There will, one day, be answer to this." ||| "A life, Jimmy, you know what that is? It's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come."
jdseemoreglass
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3773 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-05 15:46:18
October 05 2011 15:27 GMT
#1697
I've spent quite a lot of time looking at this position, it is a pretty complicated decision. Both O-O and Nxe4 seem to be solid moves... the question is, which is better?

+ Show Spoiler +

If we play 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2. Here, if black plays f5, I think the position is probably good for us. We can play Nc4 as was already mentioned, and if black plays Ba6, after Na5 our position is helped quite a bit. This would restrain his a-pawn and allow us to eventually play the liberating move b4! that we've been wanting to play in this position.

The problem as I see it, is if black doesn't play f5, and instead plays Bb7. Here I don't think Nc4 is viable, because black can play Bd5, clamping down on the position. We can't really play b4 instead here, because black can break the position open for his bishops with either a5, or c5, or both. I really don't see any good move or plan for us in this position.

I think in the O-O line, black is going to be forced to move or trade off his knight anyway after the natural move Re1. It is critical that we control the third row in this position with our rook. qrs has already illustrated how critical the square b3 is. In this position, I think we can eventually play b3. If black tries a4 to prevent that, we can play b4!

Playing Re3 will also guard the d3 square, preventing a bishop invasion of that square if we want to play Rb1 in the future. It also allows us to shuffle over to the king-side and attack or weaken black's pawn structure there.

I've reached the conclusion that castling is the more solid move here, because bringing our rook to e3 to increase our control of the third row will help us to liberate our position.


I vote 14. O-O
"If you want this forum to be full of half-baked philosophy discussions between pompous faggots like yourself forever, stay the course captain vanilla" - FakeSteve[TPR], 2006
Chezus
Profile Joined January 2011
Netherlands427 Posts
October 05 2011 15:45 GMT
#1698
I am at a loss what to play here. If it were my own rapid game, I would have probably played 14. 0-0. So that's what I'm going to vote for.

I vote 14. 0-0.
Joseki
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States200 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-05 16:34:33
October 05 2011 16:20 GMT
#1699
+ Show Spoiler +
I'd probably castle if I was playing it over the board, but after looking at it for an extensive period of time, I think whites best move is b4, with ideas of developing his knight on the queenside, and further weakening of blacks control over the dark squares with his already poor bishop on e7. I was thinking a continuation that gives white more space in the center to manuever his knights. Black probably has a winning endgame, even if hes down a pawn or two. gogo gadget bishop pair.

14. b4 a5!? 15. bxa5 c5 16. dxc5 Nxc5 17. 0-0 Ba6 18. Rd1 ...

I think b4 probably wins a pawn for white, and will clear out blacks center pawns and knight well enough to get our pieces back into that area.

I vote 14. b4
Battle.net 2.0 - The only place you can be alone with 20,000 other people.
EvilNalu
Profile Joined May 2010
United States91 Posts
October 05 2011 16:22 GMT
#1700
+ Show Spoiler +
OK, I went back to the drawing board and I think that 14.Nxe4 dxe4 15.Nd2 f5 16.0-0 Rd8 17.Rd1 loses a pawn to 17...Ke6 (immediately!). Now white plays 18.Nc4 (or 18.Nf1 c5) 18...Ba6 19.Ne3 c5 wins back the pawn. I don't think 19.Na5 works out well for white - 19...Rd5 20.Nc6 (20.b4 c5) 20...Rb3 21.Nxe7 (if 21.Nxa7 Bb7 and the knight is trapped and will be won with Ra5 or Bc5, or a slower method, also black is threatening Bc5) 21...Kxe7 and I don't see how white prevents black from winning his d pawn either by playing c5 or Bd3.
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