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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 05 2012 12:46 Jono7272 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:44 cArn- wrote:
ok about the siege on the natural, he gets scanned, has mid watch tower, how the fuck can you not understand the very basic thinking that has been made there what the fuck seriously.
There is no reason to have your units at the front when the path to the front is seen by the watch tower, god that's the same thing as being prepared for drops becuase you have map control and can see frontal attacks come... I'm done with this, I feel really sad for anyone who can be convinced by this Aren't you meant to play Terran at a high level? And you're not even slightly suspicious about any of his play? Of the countless things they have shown? What the fuck.
I would never say a pro player knew less than I did, but I don't really understand how cArn can even begin to think this is legit play. It's right in front of your face to be honest.
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On June 05 2012 12:46 SC2Phoenix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:44 nastyyy wrote:
Now that CatZ is convincing his viewers that Spades cheats. He's basically fucked. To be fair this replay is pretty blatant evidence.
PEOPLE WHO ARE BACKING SPADES ARE EITHER DUMBFUCKS OR ARE NOT WATCHING HIS STREAM ANALYSIS.
User was warned for this post
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On June 05 2012 12:39 dyi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:13 Mirhi wrote:
Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common. Quick question: How does Spades and Artist know MANY Koreans frequently stream cheat? That's a big accusation.
Time spent in multiple Korean prohouses. They both told me it was standard in Korea and even more wide spread there than it is here. The exact scenario was, I asked Artist if Koreans cheated, he shrugged and said "Yes. Korean standard." It was almost a joke, but we discussed it more later. There's a completely different view point of it there. I had to explain to Artist how badly America and Europe thought of it and stress he could never do it, it would be the end of his career if he did. It took me like 30 minutes to really make it clear how unacceptable it was to everyone, and to me personally.
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Don't we have access to hundred of Spades replays? We should be able to figure out pretty quick if he maphacks...
Not saying that Spades hacks, but I wonder how many pro players are map hacking. It wouldn't surprise me if 50%+ were. Thank you Zwei for bring all this to the forefront with your thread about GM hackers.
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The stream of Rootcatz... the evidence is pretty damning when viewing it through catz's eyes.
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This whole " magic scan " thing is pretty much indisputable evidence, unless you want to argue he scans slightly higher than his vision using the minimap instead of scrolling up and using it.
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On June 05 2012 12:45 Grampz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:44 Bagration wrote:Oh god, it's starting to seem like Savior 2010 all over again. Mirhi's accusations of Koreans cheating is especially concerning. I'm not even a particularly big fan of Leenock, but I can't imagine him intentionally cheating though. He's so young, and seems like a kid who just likes video games. I don't know if the scene is strong enough to survive a massive cheating/hacking scandal quite frankly.  Bringing that up right now... May be the only time it is necessary. You are damned right. Have they TOTALLY FORGOT WHAT RUINED BW IN THE FIRST PLACE? This is fucked. So fucked.
So are you saying they should ignore any cheating if it's really happening?
The Savior incident was terrible for BW. But I doubt there are many people other than those who were actually banned that would say the world would be better if none of it was uncovered.
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On June 05 2012 12:40 LgN.EijZrA wrote:
What's your defense for sending an SCV and not look at it when scouting?
How did you know he expanded? You don't lead with your tanks not knowing he doesn't have any of his own. You can't defend this. This isn't even Diamond level of play. This is blatant map-hacking.
Actually it's better than high diamond play because it happens to me
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On June 05 2012 12:45 Grampz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:44 Bagration wrote:Oh god, it's starting to seem like Savior 2010 all over again. Mirhi's accusations of Koreans cheating is especially concerning. I'm not even a particularly big fan of Leenock, but I can't imagine him intentionally cheating though. He's so young, and seems like a kid who just likes video games. I don't know if the scene is strong enough to survive a massive cheating/hacking scandal quite frankly. Bringing that up right now... May be the only time it is necessary. You are damned right. Have they TOTALLY FORGOT WHAT RUINED BW IN THE FIRST PLACE? This is fucked. So fucked.
sc2 is done if there was a massive cheating/hacking scandal as a esport
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If you're watching the stream and see the countless things they point out it's pretty obvious Spades is hacking. And the sad part is you know it's not just him hacking. There are plenty of other people doing it for real cash.
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Is there any possible legitimate explanation for the scans? Doesn't seem like it.
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Just wanted to extend some support to Spades. I believe the evidence is inconclusive for either party and that makes this whole drama so pointless.
It's not fair to will get vilified prior to being proven guilty.
Much of the arguments are so terrible because they are being proposed by laymen:
e.g.
Scouting like Spades already knew what to look for:
Duh.. that's what preparation pre-game is... Besides, even without specific preparation or even playing a certain person before it's pretty obvious what to scout for... Gas timings, expo timings, specific map spawn strats...
Coincidence of the now infamous 7:30 clicks
You make ~200+ clicks a minute and play dozens of games a day... Over the course of a 2year career, it's quite obvious that a crusading anti-fan will eventually find a game that happens to have two near-simultaneous set of clicks where one happens to counter another, even in sample size as small as one BoX series.
I was going to make this long and beautiful but then I realized I was arguing on the internet...
The people that know what they are talking about will get drowned out by the masses with their rah rahs and disinclinations to provide effortful, well thought-out responses.
Good luck Spades if you are innocent.
If not, well, I understand succumbing to temptation. There are only so many with the talent of a Lee Young Ho.
I cannot condone or even sympathize with cheating but I can at least empathize.
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On June 05 2012 12:47 riff wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:13 Mirhi wrote:
Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common. How do you know Leenock was giving hints in Korean? Do you speak Korean? Do you have evidence to support this assertion? I think it's enough to accuse one player today, let alone sully the reputation of someone like Leenock, who is in a completely different stratosphere compared to Spades.
i know right? maybe leenock was just asking a player who is playing a tournament game how his mom is doing back home. i mean that's what i would be talking about to a guy who's playing in a professional starcraft 2 tournament game.
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This is always the problem with these threads, in every game. A lot of people just don't understand what they are seeing. They don't know the significance of seemingly small actions. You get the same people when it's wallhack or an aimbot, they just don't understand what they are seeing but want to weigh in on it anyway
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On June 05 2012 12:48 Parcelleus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:38 Gamegene wrote:On June 05 2012 12:36 Sideburn wrote:
Not a biased stream.
"If you miss this, you are fucking retarded." -Catz
Arbiters of justice right here. lol, it's pretty blatant if you're actually competent at the game -_- Competent in terms of what ? Playing how you would ? So White-Ra is incompetent cos he plays in a way that is very unlike you would ? Please, SC2 isnt Neuroscience, even a 12 yr old can understand SC2 just fine.
its not about "how u play" a game strategically or small decisions.
its about how he does stuff which is sometimes very fishy and sometimes IMPOSSIBLE.
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On June 05 2012 12:39 shivver wrote:
this is so much fuking bs.. especially catz
"well he sends an scv scout and he never looks at it, it goes in his base and he never checks the scv"
I do this all the damn time, it's because I suck and I can't keep up with simple stuff. I'll all of a sudden look at my minimap and "oh crap my scv is leaving his main"
Anyway, that scv saw everything it needed ( the gas ). Catz is on a witch hunt
Illusion, I never thought I would see this out of you
are you seriously comparing your skill to a progamer's?
I certainly don't hope a progamer can't keep up with simple stuff lol
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On June 05 2012 12:13 Mirhi wrote:
Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common.
How do you know if he wasnt just trying to calm his friend down mentally (ofc this shouldnt be allowed either)?
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BUt yeah the difference in Spades' ladder games and the showmatch shows a distinct difference (thanks to catz and co) in scanning style. This is pretty solid argument for further investigations.
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On June 05 2012 12:39 shivver wrote:
I do this all the damn time, it's because I suck and I can't keep up with simple stuff. I'll all of a sudden look at my minimap and "oh crap my scv is leaving his main"
Are you serious right now? They play on a professional level, sending a scout and NEVER looking at the buildings you scouted is just impossible. And that's not what I'm saying, that's what the progamers that actually know what they are talking about are saying.
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This is like the Starcraft version of JFK (or the Seinfeld spoof of it).
His head goes back, and to the left. Back. And to the left.
He scans and then scrolls down. Scans. And then scrolls down.
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EPT
