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EnderSword
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada669 Posts
September 20 2011 11:40 GMT
#1381
11. Qxc6+

Take it and trade it
Bronze/Silver/Gold level Guides - www.youtube.com/user/EnderSword
hp.Shell
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2527 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-20 11:43:43
September 20 2011 11:41 GMT
#1382
On September 20 2011 20:24 qrs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 20:16 hp.Shell wrote:Vote: 11. Qxc6+
+ Show Spoiler +
But it forces a queen trade ...Qb7 if we don't want to retreat to 12. Qc2 then we must Qxb7. This doesn't prevent black from castling (11. Qxc6+ Qb7 12. Qxb7 Bxb7) and black's positional advantage is immense.
Why is it so definite that we don't want to + Show Spoiler +
retreat with 12. Qc2? Yes, Black can prevent us with castling Kingside with 12...Bh3, but he can do the same with ...Bb5 after we trade Queens.

+ Show Spoiler +
12. Qc2 just feels super defensive for only taking a pawn. Imagine you're in a gunfight with someone, you shoot at them once and it nicks them in the upper arm. Then they lob a grenade at you. That's what's happening in this game right now.

Edit: off topic, the active users caught my eye
[image loading]
Please PM me with any songs you like that you think I haven't heard before!
Chezus
Profile Joined January 2011
Netherlands427 Posts
September 20 2011 13:12 GMT
#1383
11. Qxc6

I like black pawns and I cannot lie.
chesshaha
Profile Joined March 2010
United States1117 Posts
September 20 2011 13:24 GMT
#1384
11. Qxc6+

+ Show Spoiler +
The best move in this position, I don't see a better move. The only thing I like about this series of moves if we gets to speed up the game, lol
"Hopefully you're not the real TLO so it's not casted" - SpecialK
Mash2
Profile Joined February 2011
United States132 Posts
September 20 2011 13:36 GMT
#1385
+ Show Spoiler +
If we Qxc6+, we are doing so with the intention of trading after, correct? What about Qxa7, what would be the negatives of taking a different pawn and applying pressure to his rook?
"Quite often the flood of history is undammed or diverted by the character and actions of one man." - Pat Frank, "Alas, Babylon"
Ikari
Profile Joined April 2007
United States176 Posts
September 20 2011 13:42 GMT
#1386
11.Qxc6+

+ Show Spoiler +
Lot of trading coming up...
God Mode: Alt+F4
jdseemoreglass
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3773 Posts
September 20 2011 14:43 GMT
#1387
11. Qxc6+

Trading queens after this capture is probably the best follow up, but it would probably be more entertaining and exciting to keep queens on the board as long as possible. I'm gonna have to analyze things down the line to see which I prefer, but I'm too lazy right now
"If you want this forum to be full of half-baked philosophy discussions between pompous faggots like yourself forever, stay the course captain vanilla" - FakeSteve[TPR], 2006
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-20 18:30:46
September 20 2011 15:40 GMT
#1388
On September 20 2011 22:36 Mash2 wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
If we Qxc6+, we are doing so with the intention of trading after, correct? What about Qxa7, what would be the negatives of taking a different pawn and applying pressure to his rook?
hp.Shell already mostly addressed this on the previous page. + Show Spoiler +
If we keep the Bishop on c1 to protect the b2 pawn and instead recapture on d2 with first our Knight and then our King, Black still probably gets the pawn back (and a generally dominating position) with ...Qg5+.
edited to add "probably". I haven't looked at this line carefully enough to see if we can keep the pawn in the short term, but in general the position looks bad for us, the move I mentioned being one of Black's threats. I'm looking more carefully now.

edit 2: after looking at this move more carefully, I'm no longer sure that it's bad. I changed my vote below.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-20 15:56:14
September 20 2011 15:55 GMT
#1389
11. Qxc6+: 10 (Raysalis, qrs, Bill Murray, hp.Shell, shackes, EnderSword, Chezus, chesshaha, Ikari, jdseemoreglass)

[image loading]

11. Qxc6+ is looking certain to be our move at this point. If Black plays 11...Qd7, we have essentially two options: 12. QxQ and 12. Qc2. From people's comments, it seems like there's a developing consensus that + Show Spoiler +
12. QxQ
is the one we should play. Before this gets out of hand, I'd just like to point out that we've seen no reasoning for this besides "feels like the best move", and one hard-to-follow analogy about grenades in a gunfight. (What's the grenade? How are we defusing it? Do we have our own grenade, or is it just Black?)

jdseemoreglass says he intends to analyze both moves, which sounds like the prudent thing to do. I understand that some may not have time to do extended analysis, but at the least, if you're going to say that you think one move is best, please come up with some kind of reasoning besides a gut feeling. Otherwise, we could easily find ourselves riding a bandwagon with no driver.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
jdseemoreglass
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3773 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-20 16:36:41
September 20 2011 15:59 GMT
#1390

Some more analysis. Things are getting interesting, and dangerous...

[image loading]


+ Show Spoiler +

After Qxc6+, assuming that's what we decide, there are 3 possible responses from Ng5.


1) 11. ... Qb7.

This is probably the best move. Here, we almost certainly have to trade queens. I wanted to keep queens on the board, but we simply can't allow black to play Ba6. For example, 12. Qc2? Ba6, and our king is trapped in the middle, our knight is pinned, and we are in terrible shape. Here black has deadly threats, such as Qb5 and Qg4. We are simply losing here.

11. Qxc6+ Qd7 12. Qc2? Ba6
[image loading]

We have no choice really but to play 12. Qxb7+. Here black also has an interesting option... The simple recapture Bxd7 looks most obvious, which could lead to the example position I described earlier:

11. Qxc6+ Qd7 12. Qxd7+ Bxd7 13. a3
[image loading]

Or, black could even play Kxd7. This would connect the rooks and begins to activate the king now that queens are off the board. Here black would have the intention of playing Ba6. The threat of keeping our king in the center isn't so bad here with queens off the board. Trying to castle right away would lead to 13. O-O Ba6 14. Re1, moving into another pin, because Rd1 could be met with Be2, Re1, Bxf3, and we are in serious trouble.

11. Qxc6+ Qd7 12. Qxd7+ Kxd7 13. O-O Ba6 14. Re1
[image loading]

I think a better move would be 13. a3, which is very similar to the line and image posted above. No matter how black responds now, we will be able to exchange a piece and remove the knight from e4. The more we simplify the position a pawn ahead, the more we can solidify our slight advantage.


2) 11. ... Bd7.

This move looks bad at first glance, because it simply loses a central pawn, but the follow-up seems at least playable to me. Black can win a pawn back with: 12. Qxd5 Nxd2 13. Bxd2 Bxd2+ 14. Nxd2 Rxb2. The resulting position still looks better for white. We are up a pawn, have stronger control of the center, and black's pawn structure is very weak. Perhaps the only advantage black has is the bishop on an open board.

[image loading]


3) 11. ... Kf8?!

This is probably the most interesing move here... With it, black prevents the trade of queen's and goes for a dynamic, attacking game. The black king looks less secure, but the dark-squared bishop is currently defending the diagonal well. By keeping the rook on h8, black is threatening a king-side attack by eventually playing h5 to try and bust open the king-side. By keeping the queen on the c6 square, black is also threatening a rook shift with tempo, for example 12. O-O Rb6 13. Qc2 Rg6. However, he probably has to develop the bishop first because I don't see a good way for him to respond to Qa8, pinning the bishop and holding the black queen in place.

11. Qxc6+ Kf8 12. O-O
[image loading]
"If you want this forum to be full of half-baked philosophy discussions between pompous faggots like yourself forever, stay the course captain vanilla" - FakeSteve[TPR], 2006
Cloud9157
Profile Joined December 2010
United States2968 Posts
September 20 2011 16:04 GMT
#1391
Qxc6

+ Show Spoiler +
Rb8 was a solid response. After Qxc6, he will 99% likely play Qd7. At that point I suggest we trade queens, giving us a slightly advantageous game.

If he plays Bd7, we get another pawn+attack his knight.

If he moves his king, we messed up his castle. Either way, we have a little advantage.
"Are you absolutely sure that armor only affects the health portion of a protoss army??? That doesn't sound right to me. source?" -Some idiot
itsjustatank
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Hong Kong9169 Posts
September 20 2011 16:09 GMT
#1392
11. Qxc6+
Photographer"nosotros estamos backamos" - setsuko
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
September 20 2011 16:46 GMT
#1393
On September 21 2011 00:59 jdseemoreglass wrote:

Some more analysis. Things are getting interesting, and dangerous...

[image loading]


+ Show Spoiler +

After Qxc6+, assuming that's what we decide, there are 3 possible responses from Ng5.


1) 11. ... Qb7.

This is probably the best move. Here, we almost certainly have to trade queens. I wanted to keep queens on the board, but we simply can't allow black to play Ba6. For example, 12. Qc2? Ba6, and our king is trapped in the middle, our knight is pinned, and we are in terrible shape. Here black has deadly threats, such as Qb5 and Qg4. We are simply losing here.

11. Qxc6+ Qd7 12. Qc2? Ba6
[image loading]

We have no choice really but to play 12. Qxb7+. Here black also has an interesting option... The simple recapture Bxd7 looks most obvious, which could lead to the example position I described earlier:

11. Qxc6+ Qd7 12. Qxd7+ Bxd7 13. a3
[image loading]

Or, black could even play Kxd7. This would connect the rooks and begins to activate the king now that queens are off the board. Here black would have the intention of playing Ba6. The threat of keeping our king in the center isn't so bad here with queens off the board. Trying to castle right away would lead to 13. O-O Ba6 14. Re1, moving into another pin, because Rd1 could be met with Be2, Re1, Bxf3, and we are in serious trouble.

11. Qxc6+ Qd7 12. Qxd7+ Kxd7 13. O-O Ba6 14. Re1
[image loading]

I think a better move would be 13. a3, which is very similar to the line and image posted above. No matter how black responds now, we will be able to exchange a piece and remove the knight from e4. The more we simplify the position a pawn ahead, the more we can solidify our slight advantage.


2) 11. ... Bd7.

This move looks bad at first glance, because it simply loses a central pawn, but the follow-up seems at least playable to me. Black can win a pawn back with: 12. Qxd5 Nxd2 13. Bxd2 Bxd2+ 14. Nxd2 Rxb2. The resulting position still looks better for white. We are up a pawn, have stronger control of the center, and black's pawn structure is very weak. Perhaps the only advantage black has is the bishop on an open board.

[image loading]


3) 11. ... Kf8?!

This is probably the most interesing move here... With it, black prevents the trade of queen's and goes for a dynamic, attacking game. The black king looks less secure, but the dark-squared bishop is currently defending the diagonal well. By keeping the rook on h8, black is threatening a king-side attack by eventually playing h5 to try and bust open the king-side. By keeping the queen on the c6 square, black is also threatening a rook shift with tempo, for example 12. O-O Rb6 13. Qc2 Rg6. However, he probably has to develop the bishop first because I don't see a good way for him to respond to Qa8, pinning the bishop and holding the black queen in place.

11. Qxc6+ Kf8 12. O-O
[image loading]
OK, this makes sense. I'm on board with the general consensus now that if 11....Qd7 we have no choice but to play + Show Spoiler +
12. QxQ

For what it's worth, when I questioned that earlier, I had done no analysis at all: I had only glanced at the board and noted that Black had our pieces awfully entangled, and that the way to disentangle them was probably + Show Spoiler +
a3
but after looking at the lines jdseemoreglass points out, I see we won't have enough time for that.

My questioning the move wasn't meant to say, "I think the other one is better", but more as a general thing: while I think it's fine to vote based on your gut feeling of which move is best, I don't think you should advocate a move unless you're prepared to justify that feeling by analysis and/or explanation.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
Malli
Profile Joined September 2005
Germany138 Posts
September 20 2011 17:25 GMT
#1394
Qxc6
gg no re
Mash2
Profile Joined February 2011
United States132 Posts
September 20 2011 17:42 GMT
#1395
On September 21 2011 00:40 qrs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 22:36 Mash2 wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
If we Qxc6+, we are doing so with the intention of trading after, correct? What about Qxa7, what would be the negatives of taking a different pawn and applying pressure to his rook?
hp.Shell already mostly addressed this on the previous page. + Show Spoiler +
If we keep the Bishop on c1 to protect the b2 pawn and instead recapture on d2 with first our Knight and then our King, Black still gets the pawn back (and a generally dominating position) with ...Qg5+.


ahh ok, in that case Qxc6+
"Quite often the flood of history is undammed or diverted by the character and actions of one man." - Pat Frank, "Alas, Babylon"
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-20 18:22:24
September 20 2011 18:07 GMT
#1396
On September 21 2011 02:42 Mash2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2011 00:40 qrs wrote:
On September 20 2011 22:36 Mash2 wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
If we Qxc6+, we are doing so with the intention of trading after, correct? What about Qxa7, what would be the negatives of taking a different pawn and applying pressure to his rook?
hp.Shell already mostly addressed this on the previous page. + Show Spoiler +
If we keep the Bishop on c1 to protect the b2 pawn and instead recapture on d2 with first our Knight and then our King, Black still gets the pawn back (and a generally dominating position) with ...Qg5+.


ahh ok, in that case Qxc6+
Actually, I hadn't done much analysis when I wrote that; just looked at the board. Looking more carefully now, I see that there's a way we might possibly hold on to the pawn: + Show Spoiler +
11. Qxa7 (threatens the Rook, so Black can't just play the whole sequence he wants to without first defending it). 11...Rb7 (the move I originally counted on: Black defends the Rook with tempo). 12. Qa8 (the move I hadn't paid attention to: White takes the Queen out of danger while pinning down a bunch of Black's pieces: in particular, the Queen has to stay home to defend the Bishop. This buys an extra move for us, as 12...Qg5+ is no longer a good option for Black. Furthermore, it pins Black's Rook to his c6 pawn, so that if we play 12. Bxd2 Rxb2, we can respond with 13. Qxc6+ and stay a pawn ahead. hp.Shell actually alluded to this in his original post, but I misunderstood what he meant.)
I'm looking at 11. Qxa7 more carefully now.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
September 20 2011 18:29 GMT
#1397
After spending a little more time looking at the possibility of 11. Qxa7, I'm no longer sure that it's clearly worse than 11. Qxc6. It has certain advantages. + Show Spoiler [advantages] +
In particular, it may allow us to keep the pawn and still castle, which I'm don't think we can do in the 11. Qxc6+ line. Castling is a very useful move here if we can play it: it takes a lot of the pressure off us.


The "main line" I've been looking at is + Show Spoiler [line] +
11. Qxa7 Rb2 12. Qa8

It's certainly possible that I've overlooked something, and that this move is a mistake, but for the moment, I'm changing my vote to Qxa7.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
September 20 2011 18:41 GMT
#1398
Move 11 Votes

11. Qxc6+: 13 (Raysalis, qrs, Bill Murray, hp.Shell, shackes, EnderSword, Chezus, chesshaha, Ikari, jdseemoreglass, Cloud9157, itsjustatank, Malli, Mash2)
11. Qxa7: 1 (qrs)
[image loading]

The emerging consensus is for 11. Qxc6, but can anyone say why 11. Qxa7 is worse? I thought it was worse myself, at first, but when I looked at it more carefully, I wasn't able to find a good reason to say that. It might even be better.

See my post above. My analysis could certainly be mistaken, but in that case someone should come forward to refute it.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
hp.Shell
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2527 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-20 19:07:39
September 20 2011 18:49 GMT
#1399
On September 21 2011 03:29 qrs wrote:
After spending a little more time looking at the possibility of 11. Qxa7, I'm no longer sure that it's clearly worse than 11. Qxc6. It has certain advantages. + Show Spoiler [advantages] +
In particular, it may allow us to keep the pawn and still castle, which I'm don't think we can do in the 11. Qxc6+ line. Castling is a very useful move here if we can play it: it takes a lot of the pressure off us.


The "main line" I've been looking at is + Show Spoiler [line] +
11. Qxa7 Rb2 12. Qa8

It's certainly possible that I've overlooked something, and that this move is a mistake, but for the moment, I'm changing my vote to Qxa7.

+ Show Spoiler +
11. Qxa7 Bxd2+ 12. Bxd2 Nxd2 13. Nxd2 Rxb2

This loses our one-pawn advantage we gain with Qxc6+ and also opens up the opportunity for 14. ...Qg5 putting lots of pressure on us and threatening 15 ...Qxd2# (well, it might as well be # in that case.)

Or maybe
11. Qxa7 Bxd2+ 12. Bxd2 R
Please PM me with any songs you like that you think I haven't heard before!
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-20 19:18:29
September 20 2011 18:57 GMT
#1400
On September 21 2011 03:49 hp.Shell wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2011 03:29 qrs wrote:
After spending a little more time looking at the possibility of 11. Qxa7, I'm no longer sure that it's clearly worse than 11. Qxc6. It has certain advantages. + Show Spoiler [advantages] +
In particular, it may allow us to keep the pawn and still castle, which I'm don't think we can do in the 11. Qxc6+ line. Castling is a very useful move here if we can play it: it takes a lot of the pressure off us.


The "main line" I've been looking at is + Show Spoiler [line] +
11. Qxa7 Rb2 12. Qa8

It's certainly possible that I've overlooked something, and that this move is a mistake, but for the moment, I'm changing my vote to Qxa7.

+ Show Spoiler +
11. Qxa7 Bxd2+ 12. Bxd2 Nxd2 13. Nxd2 Rxb2

This loses our one-pawn advantage we gain with Qxc6+ and also opens up the opportunity for 14. ...Qg5 putting lots of pressure on us and threatening 15 ...Qxd2# (well, it might as well be # in that case.)
You should put your lines in spoilers so Ng5 can't read them.

In your line, first of all, what happens if we just play + Show Spoiler [this?] +
13. QxR
It seems to me that we're ahead by even more material then.

edit, since you edited your post to add another line: I agree that your second line is better for Black (which is why I said "first of all"), but suppose we play + Show Spoiler +
11. Qxa7 Bxd2+ 12. Nxd2 (not 12. Bxd2). Now we're back to the old situation: if Black plays 12...Nxd2 then we can take his rook.

edit 2: I think I may have found the problem with this line: + Show Spoiler +
11. Qxa7 Nxd2! If 12. QxR, then 12...NxN++! (double check, not checkmate) seems to create grave problems for us.
Still looking at this, but at first glance it doesn't look good for us at all.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
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