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Node
United States2159 Posts
On December 03 2010 02:51 DoctorHelvetica wrote: I'm also willing to look at Node (who has surprisingly not roleclaimed yet) For the record, I did claim to DH earlier. He confirmed it here: On December 01 2010 16:24 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Node has RC'd as well. | ||
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Eiii
United States2566 Posts
Looking over the accusations of Rad, both seem like kind of a stretch. I think telling people not to roleclaim to you day 1, even overreacting and making the leap that DrH was fishing for roles isn't all that suspicious. I would have done nearly the same thing, to be honest. I don't like how young is trying to sway people against DrH. We've got to all be on DrH's side, at this point. | ||
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Eiii
United States2566 Posts
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JimboSilvers
United Kingdom167 Posts
jimbosilvers defense was ridiculous, he's so obvious I'd just like to vig hit him but we can lynch him if everyone is uncomfortable about radfield. i'm very comfortable lynching rad though. Yup. I'm apparently so obvious that you don't even have to bother with responding to my defense. Nice avoidance tactics there. Anyway, a bunch of people are running around supporting the terrible argument that "oh noes if DH is mafia we doomed anyway so we might as well keep trusting him!" You've been sheeped by him the whole game. And you continue to want to sheep him. Way to go. Either way, the logic for this argument is atrocious. Nobody has given any good reasons for us to go flock to DH. They're all based on an idea that just isnt true. Yeah, we just have to accept that if Doc is mafia, the game has already been lost for town. Which is why I'm putting my faith in him. Assuming this game is balanced most of the other normal games I've read, we're now at 15 town to 5 mafia. Which is not unwinnable at all. And looking at the dead blues, there are probably no more blues left besides South's "DT", and maybe a veteran or two. Town doesn't really benefit from knowing who the veterans are, only the DTs. And there's probably only one left. Given that this "DT" is already in DH's inner circle, the reasons for "keeping DH because we're doomed anyway" is bad. DH said he shared everything with his circle. This means that DH isn't really crucial to the town's information library. There are 3-4? other people who share this information. DH as town is no more important than anyone else in the circle. He is not as crucial as he wants you to think. This idea that we need to trust DH is blatantly false. Nobody has told us why the game is already lost if DH is mafia. I've just shown how eliminating DH won't destroy all of our information and how there are likely few blue roles that would benefit from DH. Using "he knows everything" as an excuse to keep him alive is terrible. If we're going to win this game, we need to kill the elder. And as stated before by many people, if DH is mafia, hes the elder. We need to kill him right now to lower mafia KP. DH's play this game has been fantastic. He has used propaganda to make himself appear "critical" to the town's survival. Futhermore, he's been constantly saying that "since he already has so many blue roles, the rest might as well claim to him" along with "if I'm mafia you're all screwed". The fact is that there is no real reason why town is screwed if DH knows the blue roles. Is it a major blow to the town? Yes. Can town overcome infiltration of the blue circle? Yes, but its difficult. Don't dismiss the idea that he's mafia just because he knows things. Vote based on who is mafia, don't excuse someone just because they appear valuable. DH wants you to think he's valuable. This is a pretty blatant fraud. Even his circle seems to believe him. But in the event that you prefer to follow someone who has been completely shady since the beginning of the game and want to lynch me, then go ahead. Town doesn't deserve a win if you keep sheeping and using bad logic. This DH situation is not logical. Think it over hard if you really care about this game. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
On December 03 2010 05:53 SouthRawrea wrote: I was supportive of lynching inactives during the very beginning of this game but as I have realized, "inactive" describes half of the town. At this point we've had quite a few replacements as well which results in a very slim amount of people actually having a decent-sized post count (without even considering benefical posts) barring spam. While inactive may be unhelpful to town, I suspect that there are about 3 mafia hiding within the inactive pool while the others are either defending themselves right now or sheeping along. Ideally we want to find the active mafia, get the town involved in discussion thereby reducing the number of inactives and providing material for analysis, and rinse and repeat until victory. While I'm not saying that your judgement is incorrect, I'd rather search for mafia-esque behaviour rather than lack of town behaviour now. My apologies for using "inactive player" and "player who fails to contribute anything useful" interchangeably. Just to be clear, I wasn't calling Radfield mafia for being inactive, but for making convincingly pro-town posts which upon deeper analysis doesn't really help the town. In addition, he didn't follow any of the good advise he gave. (i.e. analysis of posts.) In general I think that we need to be aware of a players ability. History is very, very useful I am finding. If the player is advanced, he will probably be able to fake not-scum well enough to fool anyone who has not been playing for a long time. I submit my self. Radfield certainly had me for a while. Others may not be so skilled, and have a harder time looking good while doing nothing. I'd guess that most mafia like this would try to hid among the lurkers. Put these two together, and you end up with very few mafia looking scummy up front. So let's try to look harder, look at previous games if you are suspicious of someone, see what they were like in that game. I'd love to do this for every player here, but I don't have that kind of time, and I doubt that anyone else does either, but try to get the background of a player that you think is mafia. See if it fits. I'm new so I'm at a disadvantage here, but I've found that often times and analysis of an entire game is done by an experienced player, and they will often tell you the history of the players in that game. It's a lot easier to find out this way than looking at all the posts, and I'd suspect it's more accurate. DrH has told us what radfield's play style is, and based his analysis off it. Obviously he's biased cause he's in this game, but I'll try to do my part and get the history of Radfield and JimboSilvers. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
On December 03 2010 09:26 JimboSilvers wrote: Yup. I'm apparently so obvious that you don't even have to bother with responding to my defense. Nice avoidance tactics there. Anyway, a bunch of people are running around supporting the terrible argument that "oh noes if DH is mafia we doomed anyway so we might as well keep trusting him!" You've been sheeped by him the whole game. And you continue to want to sheep him. Way to go. Either way, the logic for this argument is atrocious. Nobody has given any good reasons for us to go flock to DH. They're all based on an idea that just isnt true. Assuming this game is balanced most of the other normal games I've read, we're now at 15 town to 5 mafia. Which is not unwinnable at all. And looking at the dead blues, there are probably no more blues left besides South's "DT", and maybe a veteran or two. Town doesn't really benefit from knowing who the veterans are, only the DTs. And there's probably only one left. Given that this "DT" is already in DH's inner circle, the reasons for "keeping DH because we're doomed anyway" is bad. DH said he shared everything with his circle. This means that DH isn't really crucial to the town's information library. There are 3-4? other people who share this information. DH as town is no more important than anyone else in the circle. He is not as crucial as he wants you to think. This idea that we need to trust DH is blatantly false. Nobody has told us why the game is already lost if DH is mafia. I've just shown how eliminating DH won't destroy all of our information and how there are likely few blue roles that would benefit from DH. Using "he knows everything" as an excuse to keep him alive is terrible. If we're going to win this game, we need to kill the elder. And as stated before by many people, if DH is mafia, hes the elder. We need to kill him right now to lower mafia KP. DH's play this game has been fantastic. He has used propaganda to make himself appear "critical" to the town's survival. Futhermore, he's been constantly saying that "since he already has so many blue roles, the rest might as well claim to him" along with "if I'm mafia you're all screwed". The fact is that there is no real reason why town is screwed if DH knows the blue roles. Is it a major blow to the town? Yes. Can town overcome infiltration of the blue circle? Yes, but its difficult. Don't dismiss the idea that he's mafia just because he knows things. Vote based on who is mafia, don't excuse someone just because they appear valuable. DH wants you to think he's valuable. This is a pretty blatant fraud. Even his circle seems to believe him. But in the event that you prefer to follow someone who has been completely shady since the beginning of the game and want to lynch me, then go ahead. Town doesn't deserve a win if you keep sheeping and using bad logic. This DH situation is not logical. Think it over hard if you really care about this game. While I have agreed to this reasoning that "if DrH is mafia, yadda yadda blah, " It's not the reason that I no longer think he's scum. I'm not saying that he's town because he HAS to be town for us to win. Again, I agree with that reasoning, but it's not the reason I think he is town. I think he is town because of the way that he reacted to pressure from me and others, regarding his lack of contribution on the front of analysis of posts. He responded with the best defense I've seen this whole game: a ton of in-depth, low-fluff analysis. I'd like to see more players analysed by him and others, but we can't have tons of players all up on the chopping block, or we give the mafia too much power to subtly change the vote. This is why we should focus on two or three players, analyse the shit out of them, decide which looks the most mafia, and go with the strongest lynch. My humble opinion. | ||
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KtheZ
United States813 Posts
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aidnai
United States1159 Posts
On December 03 2010 10:27 Kavdragon wrote: + Show Spoiler + On December 03 2010 09:26 JimboSilvers wrote: Yup. I'm apparently so obvious that you don't even have to bother with responding to my defense. Nice avoidance tactics there. Anyway, a bunch of people are running around supporting the terrible argument that "oh noes if DH is mafia we doomed anyway so we might as well keep trusting him!" You've been sheeped by him the whole game. And you continue to want to sheep him. Way to go. Either way, the logic for this argument is atrocious. Nobody has given any good reasons for us to go flock to DH. They're all based on an idea that just isnt true. Assuming this game is balanced most of the other normal games I've read, we're now at 15 town to 5 mafia. Which is not unwinnable at all. And looking at the dead blues, there are probably no more blues left besides South's "DT", and maybe a veteran or two. Town doesn't really benefit from knowing who the veterans are, only the DTs. And there's probably only one left. Given that this "DT" is already in DH's inner circle, the reasons for "keeping DH because we're doomed anyway" is bad. DH said he shared everything with his circle. This means that DH isn't really crucial to the town's information library. There are 3-4? other people who share this information. DH as town is no more important than anyone else in the circle. He is not as crucial as he wants you to think. This idea that we need to trust DH is blatantly false. Nobody has told us why the game is already lost if DH is mafia. I've just shown how eliminating DH won't destroy all of our information and how there are likely few blue roles that would benefit from DH. Using "he knows everything" as an excuse to keep him alive is terrible. If we're going to win this game, we need to kill the elder. And as stated before by many people, if DH is mafia, hes the elder. We need to kill him right now to lower mafia KP. DH's play this game has been fantastic. He has used propaganda to make himself appear "critical" to the town's survival. Futhermore, he's been constantly saying that "since he already has so many blue roles, the rest might as well claim to him" along with "if I'm mafia you're all screwed". The fact is that there is no real reason why town is screwed if DH knows the blue roles. Is it a major blow to the town? Yes. Can town overcome infiltration of the blue circle? Yes, but its difficult. Don't dismiss the idea that he's mafia just because he knows things. Vote based on who is mafia, don't excuse someone just because they appear valuable. DH wants you to think he's valuable. This is a pretty blatant fraud. Even his circle seems to believe him. But in the event that you prefer to follow someone who has been completely shady since the beginning of the game and want to lynch me, then go ahead. Town doesn't deserve a win if you keep sheeping and using bad logic. This DH situation is not logical. Think it over hard if you really care about this game. While I have agreed to this reasoning that "if DrH is mafia, yadda yadda blah, " It's not the reason that I no longer think he's scum. I'm not saying that he's town because he HAS to be town for us to win. Again, I agree with that reasoning, but it's not the reason I think he is town. I think he is town because of the way that he reacted to pressure from me and others, regarding his lack of contribution on the front of analysis of posts. He responded with the best defense I've seen this whole game: a ton of in-depth, low-fluff analysis. I'd like to see more players analysed by him and others, but we can't have tons of players all up on the chopping block, or we give the mafia too much power to subtly change the vote. This is why we should focus on two or three players, analyse the shit out of them, decide which looks the most mafia, and go with the strongest lynch. My humble opinion. O.O you said a bad word! | ||
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JimboSilvers
United Kingdom167 Posts
On December 03 2010 10:27 Kavdragon wrote: I'm not saying that he's town because he HAS to be town for us to win. Again, I agree with that reasoning, but it's not the reason I think he is town. I think you misinterpreted my post. That is the exact reasoning I'm trying to counter. DH does NOT have to be town for us to win. Even if he's mafia, we can still win if we lynch him And we'd have to because he would be elder. The critical question here is whether or not DH is mafia. If he is mafia, we MUST lynch him. What I'm trying to counter is the flawed idea that he has to be town for us to win. Why is DH mafia? He had a scummy beginning. His "fishing" is not pro-town at all. He has been using other peoples (joking) reactions to argue weak cases. Things like a "special townie" claim doesn't mean anything when you yourself are lying in PMs. DH has also been trying to form a town circle from day 1. While he claims he initially didn't ask people to claim to him, halfway into the day he is already asking for roleclaims "from those who trust him" and uses the reasoning that he already has a bunch of blues in order to justify getting the rest of the roleclaims. He keeps wanting roleclaims even though he isn't confirmed in any way. DH has been driving town in circles and controlled the Day 2 lynch behind our backs. He has been claiming all sorts of information such as "If medic claims to me 2 mafia die" without any justification. He hasn't been reasonable when we ask for information to make a decision even though he demands that we give our inputs. Most importantly, like I've already stated, DH wants to make us think he is important. The facts are that even if DH is mafia, we can still win. But DH is wanting us to think that we're doomed anyway if he is mafia, so we might as well not kill him. This is a myth. DH coming up with magic analysis on day 3 doesn't sway me. Especially after the Night 2 kills. Which btw he's just tried to shrug off as normal. But I highly doubt that the mafia assumed that both medics would be unprotected. DH is in panic mode now. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
I have no problem destroying your terrible arguments if you want me to lime by line but any sensible person now can see you are scum also youngminii is by all accounts probably lying about his role as veteran. there is usually only 1 vet in a game this size and ym has been purposefully been playing low key, the exact opposite thing a vet should do. he gives me 0 contribution of value in my pms to him and does nothing to contribute until now when mafia try desperately to get me lynched. well i hope every single one of u is ready to vote for me if you want go get this joke wagon off the ground. lynch jimbosilvers today vig hit youngminii tonight the vig can feel free not to claim to me at this point. i can understand the idea that hey "drh knew both medics and they died" but to be fair coag was an easy blue snipe and everyone knew kenpachi. whyy did mfia hit amber? because they failed to convince anyone his pms were fake so its easier to just kill him then fail another bandwagon so i can only hope as the votes pile up on jimbo he gets increasingly defensive and makes himself look worse. he also refuses to claim to me. also if i die tonight it is very important you know there will be mafia supporting me to cover themselves when js and others die. dont disregard someone just because they attacked/argued with a mafia in thread. that sort of thing is planned all the time. | ||
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Eiii
United States2566 Posts
I can't think of any reason mafia would push so hard to split up the circle, either. The only thing left in it that's of any danger to them or significant use to us is the last dt(assuming the counts are what everyone's been assuming they are). My vote is sticking with youngminii, I'm just arguing that Jimbo isn't behaving like I'd expect a mafia to behave in this situation. It seems a ton safer to just lay low and pick off greens now that they're at such an advantage. | ||
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chaoser
United States5541 Posts
also youngminii is by all accounts probably lying about his role as veteran. there is usually only 1 vet in a game this size and ym has been purposefully been playing low key, the exact opposite thing a vet should do. he gives me 0 contribution of value in my pms to him and does nothing to contribute until now when mafia try desperately to get me lynched. well i hope every single one of u is ready to vote for me if you want go get this joke wagon off the ground. Well, if youngminii actually claimed vet then i'd vote for him, been bothering me all game that he's been so quiet and being vet means he'll be even more likely to be loud and in people's faces | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
On December 03 2010 12:36 Eiii wrote: I really don't think mafia has any reason to be in panic mode at this point. We've got (probably) one DT and zero medics. I can't think of any reason mafia would push so hard to split up the circle, either. The only thing left in it that's of any danger to them or significant use to us is the last dt(assuming the counts are what everyone's been assuming they are). My vote is sticking with youngminii, I'm just arguing that Jimbo isn't behaving like I'd expect a mafia to behave in this situation. It seems a ton safer to just lay low and pick off greens now that they're at such an advantage. WiFOM, mafia are likely to defend themselves aggressively or not defend themself for reverse psychology and you end up analysing an infinite circle of possible reverse psychology situations where it gets you nowhere jimbosilvers has post like scum and now he defends like scum we lynch him like scum | ||
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Eiii
United States2566 Posts
On December 03 2010 12:16 DoctorHelvetica wrote: I have no problem destroying your terrible arguments if you want me to lime by line but any sensible person now can see you are scum Enlighten those of us who aren't nearly as experienced at the game-- most of my own past or present concerns about you are reflected in jimbo's post, along with a few extra insights that seem to tie things together a little better. For now, he's the one doing lots of analysis and making arguments for who should be lynched, and you're pretty much just calling out names expecting people to follow suit. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
On December 03 2010 11:20 JimboSilvers wrote: I think you misinterpreted my post. That is the exact reasoning I'm trying to counter. DH does NOT have to be town for us to win. Even if he's mafia, we can still win if we lynch him And we'd have to because he would be elder. The critical question here is whether or not DH is mafia. If he is mafia, we MUST lynch him. What I'm trying to counter is the flawed idea that he has to be town for us to win. Yes you can still "win" but the town will continue to hit every blue role (except the vig of course) without abandon. Why is DH mafia? He had a scummy beginning. His "fishing" is not pro-town at all. I would make the argument that fishing is generally a pro-town stance depending on how its done. He has been using other peoples (joking) reactions to argue weak cases. I never used anyones reactions to my jokes in a lynch case. That is a bald faced lie. I used them to clear up why certain things happen (such as kenpachi misunderstanding what I said) Things like a "special townie" claim doesn't mean anything when you yourself are lying in PMs. also not true, that's an absurd statement on many levels. replace "joke" with the word "lie" to make me look bad and then say there is no way a response to a joke/lie can be analyzed is just ridiculous DH has also been trying to form a town circle from day 1. through a DT confirmed townie. I never asked for roleclaims. While he claimsWay to make it sound like maybe I'm lying when it's clear that is what happened. he initially didn't ask people to claim to him, halfway into the dayYes day 3 when I already know the role of more than half the town he is already asking for roleclaims "from those who trust him" and uses the reasoning that he already has a bunch of blues in order to justify getting the rest of the roleclaims. He keeps wanting roleclaims even though he isn't confirmed in any way. DH has been driving town in circles and controlled the Day 2 lynch behind our backsprove or even back up that last statement and I will send you 500 USD in the mail, I'm that confident you can't back it up without crack pot hyptotheticals. He has been claiming all sorts of information such as "If medic claims to me 2 mafia die" without any justification. I explained it lol. If I know 2 medics and someone counterclaims medic that means 1 of the 3 is red. A decidedly "pro-town" fish wouldn't you agree? He hasn't been reasonable when we ask for information to make a decision even though he demands that we give our inputs. How have I not been reasonable? Everytime I've refused to provide information it's because I don't want to reveal the detectives names in public or I didn't want to out coagulation. Yeah what a scummy thing to do, saving blues. Most importantly, like I've already stated, DH wants to make us think he is important. The facts are that even if DH is mafia, we can still win. But DH is wanting us to think that we're doomed anyway if he is mafia, so we might as well not kill him. This is a myth. No honestly you're completely fucked silly if I'm mafia. DH coming up with magic analysis on day 3 doesn't sway me. LOL at magic analysis. You certainly haven't contributed shit besides turning the lynch around onto me with a joke defense. Especially after the Night 2 kills. Which btw he's just tried to shrug off as normal. They're bad but not normal. But I highly doubt that the mafia assumed that both medics would be unprotected. And why would mafia assume the medics would protect eachother as well? DH is in panic mode now. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
repeating this does not make it true I told people to confirm through a confirmed town that is checked by a DT and people just dumbly roleclaimed to me. That isn't my fault, don't try to make me seem scum because thats what happened. I decided I'd use my knowledge of blue roles to try and catch mafia through counterclaims. For instance: I have 1 mad hatter. If a second mad hatter counterclaims, they are probably mafia as the first mad hatter is dead. I have 2 medics. If a third counterclaimed I would have assumed Kenpachi was mafia, but that never happened and he was town so I was right that the counterclaim confirmed him. I even told everyone that a medic roleclaimed to me to DISCOURAGE that sort of behavior. Trying to make me look scum for it is ridiculous. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
On December 03 2010 13:26 Eiii wrote: Enlighten those of us who aren't nearly as experienced at the game-- most of my own past or present concerns about you are reflected in jimbo's post, along with a few extra insights that seem to tie things together a little better. For now, he's the one doing lots of analysis and making arguments for who should be lynched, and you're pretty much just calling out names expecting people to follow suit. If your concern is that I was fishing early or asked everyone to RC to me in the beginning of the game that's a lie and it never happened. Before I even suggested a mass roleclaim to the town I already knew about 12-13 roles. The best thing for the town is to claim so I can narrow down mafia suspects by unlikely role numbers (3 medics, 3 mh, 2 vet, 2-3 vig, 3 dt, etc.) All of the specific counterclaims I asked for were for this reason. That I already had people in that role and wanted to see if any of them were lying as mafia can't risk counterclaiming knowing that I am probably in contact with the real ones. IE: mafia would know what I'm doing and never counterclaim to make me lynch a town aligned medic because the 1:1 trade that occurs in that scenario benefits town and not mafia, but a real town aligned player would counterclaim thus it's designed to catch someone that had already lied to me. as this never happened I hereby trust all of the blueclaimers except for youngminii because I never had any reason to trust it in the first place. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
but i'm using exaggeration to express this point: i'm very very very confident in my point i'm NOT trying to set up some sort of outside negotation/bribe please don't modkill me T_T | ||
flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://image63.webshots.com/163/1/98/84/404319884prqdbc_fs.jpg) I just found my new favorite picture. Resize, damn it! | ||
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DarthThienAn
United States2734 Posts
On December 03 2010 13:48 flamewheel wrote: Darth flamewheel watches. + Show Spoiler + I just found my new favorite picture. Resize, damn it! Did someone call me? | ||
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