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EarthshakerO
Profile Blog Joined September 2012
United States15 Posts
June 21 2013 20:53 GMT
#1001
I just wanna say. I have had friends use your method and get accused of hacking when they were in Bronze league LOL. It's a really good method for those who are just starting out and to provide a solid foundation for improvement. :D.

#1,000th Reply <3
My dream is to one day influence a community as much as Day[9] has influenced Starcraft.
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-22 11:16:49
June 22 2013 10:46 GMT
#1002
On June 22 2013 05:40 fengshaun wrote:
Is any method of keeping track of staircase progress coming in the next patch to ggtracker? Preferably with separate progresses per race.


yes, this is in the works! Not necessarily the next patch, but it is the ultimate goal for GGTracker to teach TheStaircase as well as keep track of your Current Step in each race.

On June 22 2013 03:50 Beedebdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 22 2013 00:06 JaKaTaK wrote:

@everyone
NEED FEEDBACK ON NEW IDEA FOR SATURATION SPEED!!!

Saturation speed itself
Pros
- More accurately diplaying ressource collection skill than worker waves per minute, since it also takes your saturation skill into account (I know, kind of obvious).

Cons
- Highly prone to strategies from both the player and the enemy. If I suddenly have to defend early aggression with workers or if I intentionally deprioritize my economy to pressure my opponent (for example with a bunker rush) it will in both cases hurt my saturation speed.
- Does not count gas, which is part of the reason why it's so affected by strategies. I think making two values, one for minerals and one for gas, and perhaps finding the average of those two would be a good solution.

Moving from 1 base income to overall income
Seems like a very good idea. However, 640 becomes a bit of an arbitrary number.
Adding more benchmarks (more specific collection values lined up to different times) would turn saturation speed into the Blizzard's ressource collection rate graph, if I'm not mistaken. Would the use of a graph be good? I can imagine you would get a more consistent idea of where you're aren't doing optimal, if your game's curve was compared to a league average curve? Adding notices of where expansions finishes, and the usual red marks that shows when ressources are lost, would further clarify a graph like that.
Of course, it would be much harder to simply skim to see if you passed, so such a graph would need a supporting average of your perfomance in the graph to really work out.

Also, not counting MULEs sounds great


I'll start at the bottom and work my way up

Its not that we would avoid counting mules. I do not know how we could do that. It is that we would bump up the income requirements by 1 mule per base for terran which should help, but still doesn't completely avoid the issue of a player saving up mules and landing a shit ton at a new base, messing with the benchmark.

640 is not an arbitrary number. It is the approximate amount of a minimally optimized base. We could go with 1 base mineral income, 1 base mineral income + 1 gas, or +2 gas, but if we just go for the mineral income it encompasses almost all strategies (with the exception of getting only the gas.

I was thinking more about this and realize we have a problem, if we go for 640 for the first base, what do we go with for the second base? Do we assume a minimum of 1 gas with 3 workers on 2 base? That won't work for step 1. But if we go for 640, then players who get 2 gas will have a faster saturation rate than those who got 1 or 0 because they will already be ahead when the 2nd base goes down.

Here are all the numbers we're working with:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=140055

We might try to go with the difference of income from the time the expo completes. Say when the expo completes, before we reach saturation we have to add 640 resources of income to our current income. That also will run into issues with mules if the player stocked up mules and had 3 mules going on one base when they landed the OC on the natural.

We could go with 650 660 or 670, but as we get closer to 672, we'll run into issues where players won't hit their benchmarks because of the mineral pattern of that particular base, or require perfect worker pairing, which I don't think is an important basic skill. Its helpful and important at some point. But that point ought to be after completing TheStaircase IMO. Feel free to disagree and share your argument with me on this point.

Okay, so we all have the information. GGTracker can do almost anything with the replay so use your creative problem solving. What do we do to make the Saturation Speed benchmark less dependent on strategy??!

EDIT: This is what I'm working on currently: I can use all the help I can get, we must find a solution!

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtFSjIb2ibJTdE1ZRS1WVVc0eE90VW5YYXJjTG1JclE&usp=sharing
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-22 12:48:52
June 22 2013 12:21 GMT
#1003
Okay, this deserves a post of its own. Here's where we're at with saturation speed:

This post details how we're getting these numbers.

This Chart lists all of the efficient possible incomes:

Our minimum 1 base income is 672. Making the benchmark exactly 672 will give inconsistent results due to the fluctuation of income so we shouldn't use exactly 672 as a benchmark IMO. we used 640 before, but I think we can give a more consistent +/- now that we are being more accurate. (see edit)

Base 2 and 3 become much more tricky. We can't use 1014 because it is possible that upon finishing the nexus "2 base saturation" would be achieved instantly (these scenarios have been marked with red). The next thing to consider is: if the player with the most saturation possible built no workers, what is the maximum income? For example, the highest 1 base income is 1044 (24 on minerals and 2 full geysers). If those 30 workers were spread out onto 2 bases, the maximum income would be 1260 (16 and 14 on minerals respectively). These scenarios are marked with orange.

So, the 1st and 2nd base end up being mineral only saturation, simple enough, but there is a shit ton of colored cells once we get to the 3rd base. The only 2 options that remain if we do not consider the orange or red scenarios are:

16 on minerals at each base and 5 full geysers
16 on minerals at each base and 6 full geysers

The question becomes, is it reasonable to assume that a player on 3 bases regardless of their strategy will want at least 5 geysers? This is a question I don't feel comfortable answering on my own. What do you all think?

EDIT: regarding standard deviation,

I missed this before, but the number 672 comes from 16*42 which is in the middle of the range 39-45. I did know that 640 comes from 16*40 which is on the lower side of the range 39-45. The reason why there is a range of collection rate is because of the different distances between patches. It is unreasonable that there will be either all 39 or 45 collection rate mineral patches at a single base. Sticking to the lower estimates will allow for more flexibility, going with anything higher than 42 will create situations where the player is doing exactly the right thing, but is being penalized for a particular mineral setup. So, our options then IMO are 40, 41, or 42 per worker on bases with up to 16 workers on minerals. Mining rate for bases with 24 workers on minerals do not depend on distance, so these will remain unchanged.

For the sake of sanity we will be assuming 3 workers in each geyser, there would be far too many options to consider with 2 per geyser and this is considered sound strategic practice only for short periods in a game. Fully saturated geysers provide 101-114 gas/min depending on distance. This is because sometimes gas geysers require that you use 4 workers instead of 3. Since this is an advanced time investment (and I don't want to require players to memorize which geysers need 4 workers and which need 3) we will assume the lowest for benchmark setting: 101
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
Antylamon
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1981 Posts
June 22 2013 16:13 GMT
#1004
First off, the initial 1base saturation timing works. 101-114 income through gas is very similar to the income of 3 workers on one mineral patch, which is 102. 3 workers on different mineral patches is 117-135, however if gas is not taken the additional workers should always be the 3rd workers for a mineral patch once 640 income is hit.

MULEs can probably be excluded through a bit of code. Since GGTracker can detect which units are ingame at the same time, then the current income can be subtracted by the amount of MULEs times the average amount of income per MULE (170) every time a MULE lands. A delay could be implemented as well to make sure the MULE's first trip is when the subtraction begins. It takes about 5 seconds for a MULE to return its first minerals. If a MULE lands elsewhere, i.e. missing a mineral field, repairing a unit, or as a manner MULE, then either they deserve to take a penalty on their Saturation Speed, it's probably lategame/cheese, or the game is over anyways, respectively. In the last two cases the MULE won't survive very long anyways.
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-22 16:48:24
June 22 2013 16:38 GMT
#1005
@GGTracker
Can we do this!??!?! (factoring out the mule) Because that would be stellar!

So what I'm thinking so far is: 101 gas 41/worker minerals

656 for 1 base
1312 for 2 base
2473 for 3 base

Currently we have:
640 for 1 base
1280 for 2 base
1930 for 3 base
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
AghSpider
Profile Joined October 2012
6 Posts
June 22 2013 17:30 GMT
#1006
I'm in silver league and consistently hit diamond/masters spending and saturation up to step 4 where it tails off a bit. If these are the two most important things, what else can I concentrate on to give me that boost to actually jump through the leagues?
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
June 22 2013 18:00 GMT
#1007
@Agh
How consistently are you hitting masters for spending and saturation? Are you losing games where you hit masters on both?

Biggest thing I would say is understanding Econ, Tech, and Army balance.

If your opponent attacks, defend
If your opponent defends, expand
If your opponent expands, attack.
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
Antylamon
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1981 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-22 18:07:40
June 22 2013 18:07 GMT
#1008
On June 23 2013 01:38 JaKaTaK wrote:
@GGTracker
Can we do this!??!?! (factoring out the mule) Because that would be stellar!

So what I'm thinking so far is: 101 gas 41/worker minerals

656 for 1 base
1312 for 2 base
2473 for 3 base

Currently we have:
640 for 1 base
1280 for 2 base
1930 for 3 base

Imo it doesn't matter whether the gas is taken or not; that would be too strategy-oriented. My vote is to stick with the current income.

As for the MULEs, I need confirmation from dsjoerg to be completely sure, but yes, I believe it is possible.
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
June 22 2013 18:19 GMT
#1009
The issue with keeping it with only minerals, is that it hurts players for getting gas at a reasonable time, cutting down the amount of strategies that are possible to hit the benchmarks with. Really, not taking the gas into account makes the benchmark strategy oriented toward mineral heavy builds.
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
AghSpider
Profile Joined October 2012
6 Posts
June 22 2013 18:30 GMT
#1010
On June 23 2013 03:00 JaKaTaK wrote:
@Agh
How consistently are you hitting masters for spending and saturation? Are you losing games where you hit masters on both?

Biggest thing I would say is understanding Econ, Tech, and Army balance.

If your opponent attacks, defend
If your opponent defends, expand
If your opponent expands, attack.



At level 4 of the staircase I'm hitting them 4 out of 5. Though today been playing mostly vs AI but the Very Hard AI is beating me a fair bit while I hit masters on both.
Antylamon
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1981 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-22 18:44:30
June 22 2013 18:43 GMT
#1011
On June 23 2013 03:19 JaKaTaK wrote:
The issue with keeping it with only minerals, is that it hurts players for getting gas at a reasonable time, cutting down the amount of strategies that are possible to hit the benchmarks with. Really, not taking the gas into account makes the benchmark strategy oriented toward mineral heavy builds.

Eh? I meant including both Minerals and Gas while keeping the income the same. Bumping up the income requirement to include optimal saturation for both Minerals and Gas assumes that the geysers are taken, which is not a given.
humaidan
Profile Joined September 2010
Bahrain10 Posts
June 22 2013 18:48 GMT
#1012
Anybody interested in practicing The Staircase with me ,, I rather practice against another member using this than on ladder or AI

(Agent.131 on EU )
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
June 22 2013 19:50 GMT
#1013
@Anty
I don't think you're understanding the spreadsheet. The way we have it set up, it works fine if you don't take any gas until your 3rd. Actually, we should change that and make it a bit lower for 3rd base to take step 1 into account (it will only alter the requirement by 101 resources.) It was incorrect to use 640 before, that's closer to 15 worker income then it is to 16. That is why the numbers are a bit higher.
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
Antylamon
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1981 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-22 21:14:14
June 22 2013 21:13 GMT
#1014
On June 23 2013 04:50 JaKaTaK wrote:
@Anty
I don't think you're understanding the spreadsheet. The way we have it set up, it works fine if you don't take any gas until your 3rd. Actually, we should change that and make it a bit lower for 3rd base to take step 1 into account (it will only alter the requirement by 101 resources.) It was incorrect to use 640 before, that's closer to 15 worker income then it is to 16. That is why the numbers are a bit higher.

Spreadsheet? I was talking about GGtracker.

This conversation just got a lot more confusing. ._.
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-22 22:15:19
June 22 2013 22:14 GMT
#1015
@anty

check out the links on the original post

EDIT: (I realize this is confusing, not the OP, the post where I brought up the issue).
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
Antylamon
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1981 Posts
June 23 2013 01:52 GMT
#1016
On June 23 2013 07:14 JaKaTaK wrote:
@anty

check out the links on the original post

EDIT: (I realize this is confusing, not the OP, the post where I brought up the issue).

I did...
Smackzilla
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States539 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-23 04:00:41
June 23 2013 03:44 GMT
#1017
Re: 5 gas on 3 base regardless of strat?

I have to say no. Take TvZ using 4M for example. Minerals are a priority for quite some time with gas taking a back seat for quite a while. A 3rd cc can go up pretty fast with 5th gas coming later. I'll see if I can find a pro example to back that up.

EDIT, here's a pro example:

+ Show Spoiler +

http://www.twitch.tv/demuslim/b/403118961 starting @0:39:00

Now this isnt 4M but it is very similar and even less gas intensive. Demuslim goes hellbats instead of mines. Gas #3 and 4 come a little after 9 mins. He lands his 3rd a little after 10 mins. He goes the entire game (about 22 mins) staying on 4 gas even after going 4 base around 16 mins. And note, he's still banking a lot of gas.
You see a mousetrap. I see free cheese and a f&%*ing challenge - Scroobius Pip
Becuula
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany65 Posts
June 23 2013 04:16 GMT
#1018
I believe StarDust was using ist 3rd also for only mining minerals at Dreamhack vs Z if I remember it right.
Also if I am playing Staircase Style only with Zealots and Stalkers, then I don't need 5gas on 3 base.
It is difficulties which give birth to miracles.
TheKleszcz
Profile Joined August 2012
Poland11 Posts
June 23 2013 17:03 GMT
#1019
A way around the Refinery problem is also to bend the rules a little to what resembles the "normal" game more. I was frustrated when my mass Marines got decimated time after time by Siege Tanks so I added Marauders before advancing higher. The game is more fun now and I also can make some more use of the gas - a compromise between learning how to macro and liking not to lose stupidly.
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
June 23 2013 17:13 GMT
#1020
Maybe take 3rd base out of the picture all together? I'm not sure. If we go for 2016 income (16 at each base for minerals), then its possible that the player will have instant saturation as soon as their nexus finishes. I don't think this is acceptable.
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
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