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Come back units - Page 5

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gurrpp
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States437 Posts
October 05 2011 21:47 GMT
#81
On October 06 2011 05:19 Rizell wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 06 2011 05:10 Mafs wrote:
I play chess and I HATE when people compare the 2. In chess there are come back moves, which make it much much more entertaining. Same with SC2. Nothing feels better then watching someone behind just dominate their opponent because they make perfect moves. And SC2 doesnt have CBU because that makes the comeback that much easier. You should be able to come back only if you outplay your opponent. Making infestors shouldn't instantly win the game unless the person has no counter.


You dont understand this.


Could you be any less clear? Your reply needs some context.

@OP

I don't really like what you're doing here. Giving purely subjective opinions about your opinions on how sc2 and scbw game design compare should not use the pretense of having some sort of quantitative rating scale. Lets face it, all of your numbers are made up. Its just misleading and adds nothing to your argument to discuss an equation for CBU, since the numbers you are using for the equation are fabricated ratings anyway.

Also, the term CBU is itself misleading. You are using two very different characteristics to define CBUs: variation and skill ceiling of a unit. There are units which you can micro and always be rewarded for doing so. For example, microing stalkers against marines early on against marines or taking potshots at the queen with hellions. These have very low variance, since you are just using your skill to get free damage in. On the other hand you have units like the reaver in scbw, where there is high variance. The variance is due to the randomness of the scarab ai, not player skill. I think you're talking more about the latter of these two, in which case the discussion should neglect player skill and only deal with random elements of the game (ie high ground miss chance, scarab ai, etc.)
hot fuh days
Superiorwolf
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
United States5509 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-05 21:53:46
October 05 2011 21:50 GMT
#82
The scarab AI indeed was somewhat random and had high variance. But don't say that a reaver's damage was not related to the player's skill.

By far the most important part in determining how much damage a reaver would do is based on how skilled the player using it is. The only exception is probably Much XD

It's like saying how much you win in poker is highly random with high variance. True, but a poker player's skill determines how often they win much more than the randomness of the cards.
Check out my stream at www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=315053 and follow me on Twitter @EGSuppy! :)
WickedSkies
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Netherlands81 Posts
October 05 2011 21:52 GMT
#83
On October 06 2011 04:25 iPAndi wrote:
all terran units have to be here

High templar has to be 230130301/10, cause if a storm hits, and you don't micro your bio out of it, its over. Terran has no comeback units.
Drone chasing probe, Tasteless quietly watching (Artosis)
CookieMaker
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Canada880 Posts
October 05 2011 21:59 GMT
#84
Wow, can I disagree more with the OP's assessment of the comeback Units. One BF drop against an army out of position or one DT when there's no detection and it might as well be GG.

BF hellions and DT's are by far the highest on my comback unit list, everything else scaled down and some units completely ignored.


(Z) Infestor = 7
(T) GHOST = 6
(P) Dark Templar = 10
(T) Banshee = 8
(Z) Baneling = 4

(P) Blink Stalkers = 5
(T)Blue Flame Hellions = 10

(P) High Templar = 6
Micro your Macro
darkscream
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada2310 Posts
October 05 2011 22:00 GMT
#85
Im glad you rated infestor as 7 even though its a unit people avoid now.
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
October 05 2011 22:04 GMT
#86
Do does the OP just completely ignore drops and harassment? Like I don't understand this at all. How are medivacs and warp prisms not comeback units? Nydus Worms? Come on, this game hasn't been counter v counter v counter for a whole year.
Cain0
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United Kingdom608 Posts
October 05 2011 22:07 GMT
#87
Mules are the best comback unit as they can support an economy without any SCV's. They are quite hard to micro though.
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25992 Posts
October 05 2011 22:08 GMT
#88
How was this thread allowed to stay open? TL goes to shit when I'm away. This is completely arbitrary. You can make Starcraft fun by controlling your units well and coming back that way. You don't need a dice-roll unit to make it fun.
Moderator
Manifesto7
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Osaka27158 Posts
October 05 2011 22:19 GMT
#89
I was actually thinking about this in the shower this morning. The part of the equation I think the OP is missing. CBU rating is the start, but the principle of the comeback is based on time. CBU fragility + ability to delay + cost are the three variables that give you the time that such a unit buys you. And in SC, time is a really overlooked factor.
ModeratorGodfather
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