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Come back units - Page 3

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windsupernova
Profile Joined October 2010
Mexico5280 Posts
October 05 2011 20:16 GMT
#41
This feels arbitrary as hell. Might as well make up BBU(British Balance Units) or for the superior metric system(Balancalories) and say that Blizzard didn´t add them well or something.

And no Ghosts are not really a comeback unit,the common theme of comeback units is efficiency like in BW. 8 Ghosts can´t do much on their own, but 8 Hellions/vultures can put you back into the game.

And well about BW being more entertaining than SC2(although I agree but I dont find SC2 bad at all) is like... your opinion dude. SC2 gets a lot of viewers atm which at least means some people find it entertaining enough
"Its easy, just trust your CPU".-Boxer on being good at games
krell
Profile Joined July 2010
United States109 Posts
October 05 2011 20:17 GMT
#42

I agree with the idea behind the post, but not the listing.

As this guy said

On October 06 2011 05:08 Bro_Stone wrote:
Ghost isn't really a comeback unit... 10 ghosts vs a protoss army won't do anything without an ACTUAL army



In my eyes, there are a only (and too few) comeback units.

1. High Templar
2. Infestor
3. banelings
4. Raven (possibly)

Why only these two? Well, in a battle that is going extremely poorly for either side, say 150 food to 50 food battles. One or two of these units could instantly turn the tide.

The fact that terran doesn't have a strong CBU is a problem in my opinion. It is what makes coming catching up with a P or Z's lead so difficult. (Only drops.. really)

Anyways.. My two cents.
"you've got to change the world and use this time to be heard"
Rizell
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden237 Posts
October 05 2011 20:19 GMT
#43
On October 06 2011 05:10 Mafs wrote:
I play chess and I HATE when people compare the 2. In chess there are come back moves, which make it much much more entertaining. Same with SC2. Nothing feels better then watching someone behind just dominate their opponent because they make perfect moves. And SC2 doesnt have CBU because that makes the comeback that much easier. You should be able to come back only if you outplay your opponent. Making infestors shouldn't instantly win the game unless the person has no counter.


You dont understand this.
So poor, cant' even pay attention.
Eppa!
Profile Joined November 2010
Sweden4641 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-05 20:29:42
October 05 2011 20:20 GMT
#44
Haha HT: 2, thou have falleth.
"Can't wait till Monday" Cixah+Waveofshadow. "Needs to be monday. Weekend please go by quickly." Gahlo
Expurgate
Profile Joined January 2011
United States208 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-05 20:26:27
October 05 2011 20:26 GMT
#45
Units do not have intrinsic 'comeback' value. They only derive such value through their use. Marines in a Medivac, or even without a Medivac, can massively swing the game by being the right place at the right time and in the right numbers.

Attempting to grade units based on their comeback potential is a very sloppy way of trying to understand a very complex system. It's like simplifying the economy down to a supply and demand graph, or car purchasing decisions to gas mileage. By comparing units strictly in terms of an invented metric, you ignore the incredible diversity of play that is possible only by thinking outside of traditional metrics.
MCDayC
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom14464 Posts
October 05 2011 20:34 GMT
#46
Mutas are comback units
DTs
Warp Prism + Zealot
Marines (good micro)
Banelings (the best fucking comeback unit)
HTs
Cloaked Ghosts

Admitedly the reaver is awesome, but there most certain are comeback units in SC2.
VERY FRAGILE, LIKE A BABY PANDA EGG
figq
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
12519 Posts
October 05 2011 20:38 GMT
#47
Energy. Cloak. Splash dmg. Burst dps. -- I think those attributes are among the ones that can make a come back unit. Based on that, we could add to the OP also Colossi (splash), VR (burst), stimmed Marauders (burst), Tanks (splash), Yamato BC (burst), Overseers (energy), Queens (energy), Banshee (cloak), Archon (splash), Thor (air splash) . And in some cases extreme speed advantage can be come back worthy, so Zerglings too. Obviously, come back with any of those units doesn't happen very often, but sometimes it does.

Not all come back aspects are exactly units, some are more global, like repair and mules, shields, and burrow. Overall, no, I don't think SC2 lacks come back elements, the battles aren't very one-sided on average, especially compared to other games. The reason BW viewers may feel BW is more surprising is what Tyler mentioned on SotG that BW observing traditionally provides less information, so it's up to you to guess more and bite your nails, and you also get surprised more. I think SC2 obs are catching up in that aspect, it's not something that can't be improved.
If you stand next to my head, you can hear the ocean. - Day[9]
PrinceXizor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States17713 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-05 20:41:17
October 05 2011 20:41 GMT
#48
Banshee hellion raven

Infestor, mutalisks

Warp Prism, DT, Sentries Void ray


Those are likely the comeback untis of SC2 though a well times drop or sneak attack can do the same (as it can in BW)

none can match the completely retarded scarab AI hype because it was that. stupid and random. of course people will be on edge watching it NO ONE not even the player using the reaver knows how it will turn out until it lands. and you can only do a little to minimalize the damage but most of the damage mitigation comes from luck.

Stop lurkers are kind of true as a comeback thing but they reaaallly need to happen at a certain point in ZvT otherwise they reallty aren't a comeback unit they are just irrelevant once the science cloud comes into play.

meh the games are pretty similar in this regard
0neder
Profile Joined July 2009
United States3733 Posts
October 05 2011 20:41 GMT
#49
MULE - 15
Hellion - before nerf, yes, after, no.
Tank - not anymore
Colossus? nope, damage type not strong enough (like reaver)
zul
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany5427 Posts
October 05 2011 20:41 GMT
#50
no way infestors have the highest comeback factor. ghost and colossus make far more sense.
keep it deep! @zulison
Noocta
Profile Joined June 2010
France12578 Posts
October 05 2011 20:45 GMT
#51
There's nothing that set you back in a game better than a good infantry drop as terran imho. :/

And any kind of units that force your opponent to micro is a comeback unit because.. if he don't micro, you're being cost efficient. :< ( baneling, storm, infestor, etc )
" I'm not gonna fight you. I'm gonna kick your ass ! "
Superiorwolf
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
United States5509 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-05 20:52:47
October 05 2011 20:49 GMT
#52
I totally agree with the sentiments of this article. Although the values may be somewhat arbitrary, it is so true - BW had way more exciting units that could be amazing in the hands of skilled players and show the difference between a top player and a mediocre player. I even argue that infestors and such are not comeback units at all - I honestly think infestor would be a 2 or 3 on the comeback unit scale - there is no skill involved using them, you simply hit f and click several times. The only thing that differentiates one infestor user vs the other is if one person gets slightly better fungals. If you are in a ZvZ and one person has 4 more infestors, that person is probably going to win. If you were in a ZvZ in Broodwar, the person with more scourge in muta/scourge battles was not necessarily going to win - it depended on the micro and skill with which the units were controlled.

Scourge would be something like a 6-7 on the comeback scale compared to an infestor. Because of it's huge instant damage it can turn things around almost instantly. The thing is, StarCraft 2 needs more units like that to make games more exciting and more dynamic with more potential for comeback if units are used well. The nerf of high templar storm is understandable and needed, but as you show, it turns storm from a comeback level of 6 to 2, and into a lackluster spell with very little potential.
Check out my stream at www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=315053 and follow me on Twitter @EGSuppy! :)
ALPINA
Profile Joined May 2010
3791 Posts
October 05 2011 20:50 GMT
#53
I would say collosus (lol) is a comeback unit in certain situations. Let's say you have a huge advantage as zerg but only with hydra/ling army. Protoss is sitting only on 2 bases and makes last push after making like 3 collosus with his last money. He wins
You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
October 05 2011 20:51 GMT
#54
Although I agree some units are great at making come-backs in Starcraft, and SC2, I would disagree on your choice in trying to quantify the "combackability" of units.
liftlift > tsm
Superneenja
Profile Joined December 2010
United States154 Posts
October 05 2011 20:52 GMT
#55
I don't see how Ghosts are a comeback unit... =X
Rob28
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada705 Posts
October 05 2011 20:55 GMT
#56
On October 06 2011 04:24 Endymion wrote:
Funnily enough I don't think terran really has a "comeback unit" vs zerg, it's usually a much more gradual comeback of winning battle after battle and having their marine/tank count not fall. I guess hellions if you don't see them being dropped, but any competant Zerg will. If a Terran is behind they're just fucked, just like if a Zerg is behind they're fucked too (in zvt for both races anyways).


Some would say sniping ghosts or cloaked banshees are the terran comeback unit vs zerg. By "some", I mean "me".
"power overwhelming"... work, dammit, work!
Jerubaal
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States7684 Posts
October 05 2011 20:56 GMT
#57
So basically you want to play bad, but then win anyway.

K.
I'm not stupid, a marauder just shot my brain.
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
October 05 2011 20:58 GMT
#58
On October 06 2011 05:52 Superneenja wrote:
I don't see how Ghosts are a comeback unit... =X

I dunno, the ability to take away 150 shields on multiple units?
It effectively does more damage than fungal growth...
Fungal does like 30-40dmg during its hold time.
EMP=150 instantly.
the DPS on it is way higher, and makes your units way more effective.
It also shuts down any HT and Infestor play, the enemy has invested into their army.

Not to mention a lucky nuke = MAJOR COMEBACK.
liftlift > tsm
QTIP.
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States2113 Posts
October 05 2011 20:59 GMT
#59
On October 06 2011 05:58 wei2coolman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 06 2011 05:52 Superneenja wrote:
I don't see how Ghosts are a comeback unit... =X

I dunno, the ability to take away 150 shields on multiple units?
It effectively does more damage than fungal growth...
Fungal does like 30-40dmg during its hold time.
EMP=150 instantly.
the DPS on it is way higher, and makes your units way more effective.
It also shuts down any HT and Infestor play, the enemy has invested into their army.

Not to mention a lucky nuke = MAJOR COMEBACK.


Isn't it 100 shield?
"Trash Micro but Win. Its Marin." - Min Chul
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
October 05 2011 21:00 GMT
#60
On October 06 2011 05:55 Rob28 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 06 2011 04:24 Endymion wrote:
Funnily enough I don't think terran really has a "comeback unit" vs zerg, it's usually a much more gradual comeback of winning battle after battle and having their marine/tank count not fall. I guess hellions if you don't see them being dropped, but any competant Zerg will. If a Terran is behind they're just fucked, just like if a Zerg is behind they're fucked too (in zvt for both races anyways).


Some would say sniping ghosts or cloaked banshees are the terran comeback unit vs zerg. By "some", I mean "me".

^I agree. Ghosts shut down tier 3 zerg units fairly hard. Not to mention medivac + 8 marines = epic comeback, reference MLG in that MMA vs Losira match.
liftlift > tsm
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