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Come back units - Page 2

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ceaRshaf
Profile Joined August 2009
Romania4926 Posts
October 05 2011 19:42 GMT
#21
On October 06 2011 04:35 TehTemplar wrote:
Marines are a 3-5 in my eyes.


Marines and marauders are brute force, like 10 collosus would be. They are not a CBU.
Mess with the best, die like the rest.
Sawamura
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Malaysia7602 Posts
October 05 2011 19:44 GMT
#22
On October 06 2011 04:42 arterian wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 06 2011 04:38 Sawamura wrote:
Hell even the basic infrantry in starcraft broodwar for the terran race is also a CBU just look at boxers mutli prong drop ship micro versus zergs back in 2001 . Broodwar in all their combat units are generally if used well to defend a push can be a CBU . <3 broodwar and if sc2 really wants to attract people they have got to be releasing units like these .

You don't see players in sc2 ever did a comeback after a major lost and I can bet you there is none because units in sc2 die really easily . Other than that to compare sc2 in comparison as sc vanilla is totally wrong , how long did blizzard had the experience in making starcraft 1 and broodwar and than releasing it after 10 years . Isn't it reasonable expectation from a developer who created a really good game in 1998 to continue its quality games ? One would have expected it to be so , but it isn't when we are still debating which mu should be balance and etc.


maybe you weren't around for the first 6 years or so of BW where balance was still discussed regularly


what has that got to do with the point I am raising ?
BW/KT Forever R.I.P KT.Violet dearly missed ..
Sphaero
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany1697 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-05 19:49:26
October 05 2011 19:45 GMT
#23
As much as I dislike this BW vs. SCII topics, I agree, that Infestors are are the best comeback unit. I actually would rate them 8. Ghosts should be also one higher, espescially in PvT. What you completely undermine, is the usefullness of High Templar. They should be atleast a 5, if not a 6.

I have seen at least ten games, where HasuObs turned already lost games with phenomenal Templar or Blink Stalker play. Two or three really well placed Storms can do wonders. This is of course also a testament of Hasu´s exteme good unit control, but your examples from BW also featured some of the best players.

The Sentry should be also higher, because they often buy you the time you need to come back. BF Hellion and Mules should be on that list, too.
sVnteen
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany2238 Posts
October 05 2011 19:49 GMT
#24
i dont understand these calculations but i can tell you dt make far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar more comebacks happen than ghosts

just sayin
MY LIFE STARTS NOW ♥
ProxyKnoxy
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom2576 Posts
October 05 2011 19:50 GMT
#25
On October 06 2011 04:40 arterian wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 06 2011 04:38 LaGTTBloodThirsty wrote:
p.s. anyone remember defensive nukes such as jinros at mlg not too long ago where he sets nuke on his own army then backs up so i think choyo's army on tal darim walks into and poof. Pretty sure if nukes can be pulled off they are the ultimate CBU


i'm pretty sure choya died to nuke because it was his first time hearing "nuclear launch detected" in the english client


And he didn't see the yellow text on the side of the screen.
Or the nuke noise
"Zealot try give mariners high five. Mariners not like high five and try hide and shoot zealot"
Roblin
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden948 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-05 19:55:47
October 05 2011 19:54 GMT
#26
On October 06 2011 04:35 TehTemplar wrote:
Marines are a 3-5 in my eyes.

marines is only a come-back unit if the opponent is stupid.

edit: and even then marines are not the deciding factor of the comeback (I assume you are talking about massive amounts of drops), its the medivacs.
I'm better today than I was yesterday!
FinestHour
Profile Joined August 2010
United States18466 Posts
October 05 2011 19:55 GMT
#27
Every unit is and can be a comeback unit, depending on the situation.
thug life.                                                       MVP/ex-
Subztance
Profile Joined August 2010
United States139 Posts
October 05 2011 19:55 GMT
#28
How can a variable (Player Skill) multiplied by an assumed constant (Unit Design) result in a constant number?

(Player Skill) x (Unit Design) would be variable based on Player skill. I think the number you're trying to assign to (Player Skill) x (Unit Design) is in fact just (Unit Design) itself. There are other issues I have with this analysis but that one suggests to me that you aren't in fact capable of making an accurate analysis of this "theory".

a come back unit (CBU)= it's a StarCraft unit that has a counter and it counters others but it's uselfuness can sometimes be game changing on the hands of a skilled player and that can provide on it's own or in small numbers a come back in a game if used right.

I'm not familiar with high level brood war, what is the counter to a reaver or defiler?

Also, Marauders seem to fit your comeback unit definition very well, especially with medivacs.
yuri taeyeon
nath
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1788 Posts
October 05 2011 19:58 GMT
#29
hellions and medivacs should be in there.


in any scrappy situation, marines are a good comback unit.
Founder of Flow Enterprises, LLC http://flow-enterprises.com/
nath
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1788 Posts
October 05 2011 20:00 GMT
#30
On October 06 2011 04:49 sVnteen wrote:
i dont understand these calculations but i can tell you dt make far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar more comebacks happen than ghosts

just sayin

maybe as of now

but any terran hopelessly economically behind a zerg with no map control, turtling and making ghosts can kill endless amounts of hive-tech 200/200 armies. not whining, i play t so its good
Founder of Flow Enterprises, LLC http://flow-enterprises.com/
ceaRshaf
Profile Joined August 2009
Romania4926 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-05 20:02:25
October 05 2011 20:01 GMT
#31
On October 06 2011 04:55 Subztance wrote:
How can a variable (Player Skill) multiplied by an assumed constant (Unit Design) result in a constant number?

(Player Skill) x (Unit Design) would be variable based on Player skill. I think the number you're trying to assign to (Player Skill) x (Unit Design) is in fact just (Unit Design) itself. There are other issues I have with this analysis but that one suggests to me that you aren't in fact capable of making an accurate analysis of this "theory".

a come back unit (CBU)= it's a StarCraft unit that has a counter and it counters others but it's uselfuness can sometimes be game changing on the hands of a skilled player and that can provide on it's own or in small numbers a come back in a game if used right.

I'm not familiar with high level brood war, what is the counter to a reaver or defiler?

Also, Marauders seem to fit your comeback unit definition very well, especially with medivacs.


The formule is not wrong, it just needs a clarification, and that's the following:

The maximum CBU values can be acquired only for a value of 10 (on a 1-10 scale ) of a players skill.

So a 10 player will get the most out of a CBU.

The CBU value is what you can get MOST, not what you always get. So please read the thing.

Defiler needed science vessels and reaver drop needed tanks or spider mines planted.
Mess with the best, die like the rest.
niteReloaded
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Croatia5282 Posts
October 05 2011 20:03 GMT
#32
What OP probably meant to suggest is that SC2 needs more units that are highly affected by the player's skill. Currently we have little of those.

A nuke is a comeback unit, but it's almost exclusively based on luck, circumstances and some mind games. Yet, it's not what we need more of!
The game would become a shit-fest if you include more of such tactics.
It needs to be done BW style, by making units whose effectiveness depends heavily on the player's skill.

Reavers didn't mean you only needed some luck to come back. It required a ton of skill to pull of and it's what made them exciting.
Sawamura
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Malaysia7602 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-05 20:05:24
October 05 2011 20:04 GMT
#33
On October 06 2011 04:55 Subztance wrote:
How can a variable (Player Skill) multiplied by an assumed constant (Unit Design) result in a constant number?

(Player Skill) x (Unit Design) would be variable based on Player skill. I think the number you're trying to assign to (Player Skill) x (Unit Design) is in fact just (Unit Design) itself. There are other issues I have with this analysis but that one suggests to me that you aren't in fact capable of making an accurate analysis of this "theory".

a come back unit (CBU)= it's a StarCraft unit that has a counter and it counters others but it's uselfuness can sometimes be game changing on the hands of a skilled player and that can provide on it's own or in small numbers a come back in a game if used right.

I'm not familiar with high level brood war, what is the counter to a reaver or defiler?

Also, Marauders seem to fit your comeback unit definition very well, especially with medivacs.


Reavers die really easily to siege tank or getting flanked by a group of zergling , and I mean anything can kill a reaver . It's really slow and without shuttle microing a reaver it's good as dead .Although it depends totally on the players micro ...

case for example Snow v Jaedong on benzene



Defiler easily dies to science vessel irradiate , once being irradiated it has no chance to survive at all .Easily countered in TvZ and that's where scourge comes into play to kill of science vessel .
BW/KT Forever R.I.P KT.Violet dearly missed ..
SeRenExZerg
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States401 Posts
October 05 2011 20:05 GMT
#34
i dont agree with the infestor being a CBU at all. MUCH less so than the DT or just drops in general, even though those aren't good ways to come back either.

i've never seen a pro game where the zerg was behind and used infestors to great affect to come back from a deficit and win the game. given the nature of SC2, 99 percent of the time when one person gains a marginal advantage they win the game.

I DO agree, however, that come backs are far too hard to make as is in the game right now- and yes, this is because the central theme of hard counters rather than softer counters in the game. it is more or less impossible to make a comeback simply by your own merit and outstanding unit control.
One thing about deer: They have good vision. One thing about me: I am better at hiding than they are at vision.
Legion710
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada423 Posts
October 05 2011 20:06 GMT
#35
I think this post is very interesting and deserves attention.
Tyrion Lannister
IGotPlayguuu
Profile Joined June 2011
Italy660 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-05 20:06:51
October 05 2011 20:06 GMT
#36


The Sentry should be also higher, because they often buy you the time you need to come back. BF Hellion and Mules should be on that list, too.


I heard mules are pretty hard to micro...
BW |JaeDong|Bisu|FBH|BeSt| SC2 |MC|DRG|MMA|TLO|HuK|July|ClouD| ||| Boxer best player ever! ||| "HuK never use penix" ||| I <3 SeleCT ||| GO Space! ||| Nerf Roach! |||
elgringo
Profile Joined March 2011
United States28 Posts
October 05 2011 20:06 GMT
#37
Brood lords can be game changing if the Terran or Protoss is unprepared. If terrans can't get vikings out in time they're pretty much fucked.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? -Albert Camus
QTIP.
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States2113 Posts
October 05 2011 20:08 GMT
#38
Stork Reaver Micro was sick!
"Trash Micro but Win. Its Marin." - Min Chul
Bro_Stone
Profile Joined April 2011
United States510 Posts
October 05 2011 20:08 GMT
#39
Ghost isn't really a comeback unit... 10 ghosts vs a protoss army won't do anything without an ACTUAL army
Stim Go Go GO!
Mafs
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada458 Posts
October 05 2011 20:10 GMT
#40
I play chess and I HATE when people compare the 2. In chess there are come back moves, which make it much much more entertaining. Same with SC2. Nothing feels better then watching someone behind just dominate their opponent because they make perfect moves. And SC2 doesnt have CBU because that makes the comeback that much easier. You should be able to come back only if you outplay your opponent. Making infestors shouldn't instantly win the game unless the person has no counter.
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