There is a lot of discussion lately about this game, balance-design wise. I have my own discussion I want to start. It's about...............[coffe break]............... "Come back units" (face zoom).
a come back unit (CBU)= it's a StarCraft unit that has a counter and it counters others but it's uselfuness can sometimes be game changing on the hands of a skilled player and that can provide on it's own or in small numbers a come back in a game if used right.
Examples of CBUs from Broodwar: reaver (protoss), vulture (terran), defiler (zerg)
It's very important to understand that StarCraft is not fun without CBUs. This is the reason StarCraft is not like chess. Chess is all about strategies and counters in a perfect balanced system. While you can admire the decision making of a person, its not enough on it's own to be entertaing for a large amount of audience. Imagine 2 people playing 15 minutes of "rock- paper- scissors". It's all about counters in a perfect balanced system but still not entertaining. There is no RANDOM factor that gets to be multiplied with the player skill.
Unfortunately StarCraft II is mostly about counters and not about the random factor that is dictated by CBUs.
Bio forces Collosus that forces Vikings. Bio forces High Templars that forces Ghosts.
Counter over counter over counter : compute. Processing battle result. Protoss wins! (just for fun, we all know protoss does not win :D )
There is no random factor in there. Player skill is not random, it's an exact figure.
The value of a "come back unit" is in relationship with it's ability to be multiplied with the player skill.
In my eyes a reaver, on a 1-10 scale, is a 10 CBU.
Playes skill X Reaver unit design = 10.
This means that this unit on a talented players hands can give immense outcomes and is unpredictable in statistics. You can suck with it or have immense success and even come back in a game with it.
Player skill X Zealot unit design = 1.
This means that the outcome of zealot used by a talented player is most likely predictable and it by no means have the chances to make a come back.
BUT!
There is one more thing that has to be taken in consideration. And you will not like it. BALANCE. If Reavers would be cheap to get, hard to kill than the game would become imbalanced, thus reducing the units value. SO, the new formula is:
(Player skill X Unit design)/Game balance value = CBU Value.
Game Balance Value ideally is 50% = 0,5. If it gets in favor of the race that has the unit you are doing the calculations for than it gets higher so the CBU Value gets lower.
The maximum CBU values can be acquired only for a value of 10 (on a 1-10 scale ) of a players skill. So a 10 player will get the most out of a CBU.
The CBU value is what you can get MOST, not what you always get.
The interesting thing is that Broodwar had multiple Value 10 CBUs, even within one race, like Lurker and Defiller. That means that zergs had immense potential and that also resulted in extremely fun games.
Now let's look at StarCraft II. I will list the "come back units" with the highest values (after my poor judgment).
This are the most fun delivering units. The higher their CBU Value, that louder the scream from the audience these units can bring on their own. All the rest of units are 1s. They just do what they are supposed to do, with almost no surprise (micro is something thats not random, it depends on player skill, so kitting marines are a given).
Also, remember, the CBU Value is actually the maximum of "reword" you can get not what you always get. Even if the infestor is a 7, not all players work it for a 7. But the important thing here is the potentiality, because there has to be room for improvement.
So guys, what do you think? Are "come back units" important in our beloved game? Does it already have them? Do you think this is the reason there are not so many WOW moments in Starcraft II as there were in in Broodwar?
Let's check the CBUs for Protoss in Broodwar (if you don't watch those videos, all of them, you are hurting ESPORTS!):
Reaver = 10
stork vs darkelf
Storm = 6
Jangbi vs NaDa
Arbiter = 6
Nal_rA vs GoodFriend
Carrier = 6
Fantasy vs JangBi
Dark Templar = 3
Bisu vs Savior
Dragoon = 2
Light vs Tempest
Dark Archon = 2
Reach vs Chojja
This is why that game was a lot more entertaining. It had good designed units. Of course this is my opinion. What do you guys say?
infestors, 100 fucking percent. I was playing a GM zerg last night, muta vs muta battles for like 20 min, was down upgrades (1-1 to 2-1), I engaged with 10 mutas and 3 infestors vs 23 mutas, fungled 5 times, won the game directly after. Such a retarded way to win. In terms of other races, DTs obviously for P, if you're ahead but don't see it coming you're just screwed. I've lost a lot to combatex like this (nydus his base, be 3base vs 1base, lose from DTs). Funnily enough I don't think terran really has a "comeback unit" vs zerg, it's usually a much more gradual comeback of winning battle after battle and having their marine/tank count not fall. I guess hellions if you don't see them being dropped, but any competant Zerg will. If a Terran is behind they're just fucked, just like if a Zerg is behind they're fucked too (in zvt for both races anyways).
Edit ~ The only reason blings should be up there is if they're burrowed, if you're behind in zvt there is no way in hell your blings are getting anywhere near the Terran army..
In BW defilers were the sickest comeback unit ever, fuck yeah darkswarm
well remember that sc vanilla wasnt nearly as popular as BW, and sc2 is still at the stage of sc vanilla. As expansions come, the game will have more units, thus more CBU's and fun
On October 06 2011 04:23 KevinIX wrote: This looks completely arbitrary.
I'm gonna have to agree. How do you measure a unit's "comeback" score? I think potential cost effectiveness is the important factor. Units like Infestors, cloaked banshees, dts, if used correctly can kill much more than their own cost. That could be a "comeback" unit.
there's a surprising number of games where a terran loses all of his SCVs and then snipes an expansion with one drop, stays in the game, and wins the war of attrition with just drops.
On October 06 2011 04:23 KevinIX wrote: This looks completely arbitrary.
I'm gonna have to agree. How do you measure a unit's "comeback" score? I think potential cost effectiveness is the important factor. Units like Infestors, cloaked banshees, dts, if used correctly can kill much more than their own cost. That could be a "comeback" unit.
There is one point were you have to be arbitrary, when awarding the highest CBU Value to a unit. After that you just compare the units in between and decide witch one gets were in the hierarchy. Also the EXACT value it's not that important. The whole idea of this thread is to make an important point about this game.
infestors arent that good of a CBU anymore if u play anyone who can properly micro/split O_o not to mention feedback snipe and i think emp all out range any kind of fungal now
Interesting. Often times as both a spectator and a player, it feels like the game can be determined several minutes before it actually ends. SC2 definitely needs more CB units for each race.
p.s. anyone remember defensive nukes such as jinros at mlg not too long ago where he sets nuke on his own army then backs up so i think choyo's army on tal darim walks into and poof. Pretty sure if nukes can be pulled off they are the ultimate CBU
Hell even the basic infrantry in starcraft broodwar for the terran race is also a CBU just look at boxers mutli prong drop ship micro versus zergs back in 2001 . Broodwar in all their combat units are generally if used well to defend a push can be a CBU . <3 broodwar and if sc2 really wants to attract people they have got to be releasing units like these .
You don't see players in sc2 ever did a comeback after a major lost and I can bet you there is none because units in sc2 die really easily . Other than that to compare sc2 in comparison as sc vanilla is totally wrong , how long did blizzard had the experience in making starcraft 1 and broodwar and than releasing it after 10 years . Isn't it reasonable expectation from a developer who created a really good game in 1998 to continue its quality games ? One would have expected it to be so , but it isn't when we are still debating which mu should be balance and etc.
On October 06 2011 04:38 LaGTTBloodThirsty wrote: p.s. anyone remember defensive nukes such as jinros at mlg not too long ago where he sets nuke on his own army then backs up so i think choyo's army on tal darim walks into and poof. Pretty sure if nukes can be pulled off they are the ultimate CBU
i'm pretty sure choya died to nuke because it was his first time hearing "nuclear launch detected" in the english client
On October 06 2011 04:38 Sawamura wrote: Hell even the basic infrantry in starcraft broodwar for the terran race is also a CBU just look at boxers mutli prong drop ship micro versus zergs back in 2001 . Broodwar in all their combat units are generally if used well to defend a push can be a CBU . <3 broodwar and if sc2 really wants to attract people they have got to be releasing units like these .
You don't see players in sc2 ever did a comeback after a major lost and I can bet you there is none because units in sc2 die really easily . Other than that to compare sc2 in comparison as sc vanilla is totally wrong , how long did blizzard had the experience in making starcraft 1 and broodwar and than releasing it after 10 years . Isn't it reasonable expectation from a developer who created a really good game in 1998 to continue its quality games ? One would have expected it to be so , but it isn't when we are still debating which mu should be balance and etc.
maybe you weren't around for the first 6 years or so of BW where balance was still discussed regularly
EPT
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