EPT[R] Build Orders visible to everyone battle.net - Page 5
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raph
United States204 Posts
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redwingxviii
United States101 Posts
I already put out a (I think) valid analogy. Whole map is revealed at all times with no fog of war. removing fog of war is nothing like knowing build orders. if i were to play against you, and i told you that i 2-gated in my last 10 games, what would you do, as terran? i'll tell you what i'd do - i'd send a scout and see if you were building a reaper, then adjust accordingly. if i were to play against you, and there were no fog of war... well, that's a pretty different game right? | ||
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Xlancer
United States126 Posts
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
On June 25 2010 02:11 tedster wrote: Because creative builds could be spotted in advance and prepared for, rendering them shitty. Also the longer you work on a specific timing or clever map-specific move, (which takes a lot of time and practice to figure out and get right) the more obvious it is what you're doing and the more useless it will be when you finally decide to whip it out. Pure mechanical competition is identical armies with identical supply counts playing micro wars, not a game with branching paths and options and fog of war. If you seriously think pro football teams sharing playbooks and inviting opposing coaches to pre-playoff practices is a totally awesome and logical idea, then there's no arguing with you because you don't understand anything at all about competition and never will. There's too much of a strawman going on with this "seeing the playbook before the game's even played" argument. Everyone knows that's called cheating. No one's arguing that every single game you ever played should be available to everyone always. But, if you use a strategy in front of thousands of people in a public broadcast, then expect it to be dissected. It's about as black and white as you can get. Moreover, my example is just a hypothetical example, an impossible one might I add. You can't figure out everything, especially if BOs have what we call ambiguous pathing. You can't scout all the time. Visible BOs does not equate to everything solved. I just took it as an extreme to show that the fear of ruining the game through replays is an impossibility. | ||
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aka_star
United Kingdom1546 Posts
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Gokain
United States49 Posts
On June 25 2010 09:32 Cloak wrote: There's too much of a strawman going on with this "seeing the playbook before the game's even played" argument. Everyone knows that's called cheating. No one's arguing that every single game you ever played should be available to everyone always. But, if you use a strategy in front of thousands of people in a public broadcast, then expect it to be dissected. It's about as black and white as you can get. Moreover, my example is just a hypothetical example, an impossible one might I add. You can't figure out everything, especially if BOs have what we call ambiguous pathing. You can't scout all the time. Visible BOs does not equate to everything solved. I just took it as an extreme to show that the fear of ruining the game through replays is an impossibility. the transparency of build orders will not have such an extreme effect as to ruin the game. The impact it will have, however, is mainly during practice [for a tourney, showmatch, etc.]. Obviously a strategy you employ several times tourneys will end up being public and dissected, analyzed, etc. But this isn't the true concern; rather, it's build orders you practice and test during practice sessions. When what you want to do in private is actually public, then it becomes difficult to employ a strategy based on surprise. Furthermore, when your opponents are able to observe the general trend of what you have been practicing, it will inherently become apparent to them of the broad strategies you will likely be favoring to use at the main event. Since this applies to both players, it isn't so much that one player has an advantage over another, but rather a situation arises where the psychological warfare of SC is limited and eventually becomes indiscernible. i do not believe that Blizzard implemented this for any negative reasons or to impede on the privacy of players. I assume that they merely wanted to grant newer players the opportunity to access build orders of higher caliber players that defeated them. Along with the various tabs available in replays, this feature allows them to view the discrepancies b/w the play of higher level player and their own. It is Blizzard's way of opening the doors of RTS to people who feel intimidated by the genre or are just not "in the know" of how to play well. The unfortunate side effect is that the top level players can't keep their surprises...surprises. | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
However, custom non-rated matches should allow to remain off record, so that people can practice as much as they want some new cool stuff, before starting to apply it competitively. This will allow preparation for tournaments to remain private and legal, but won't allow massive cheese-festers to reach too high on ladders. | ||
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Amprophet
93 Posts
On June 25 2010 07:07 redwingxviii wrote: removing fog of war is nothing like knowing build orders. if i were to play against you, and i told you that i 2-gated in my last 10 games, what would you do, as terran? i'll tell you what i'd do - i'd send a scout and see if you were building a reaper, then adjust accordingly. if i were to play against you, and there were no fog of war... well, that's a pretty different game right? Yea it's a pretty different game if there's no fog of war. It's also a very different game if everyone started using BO lists in competition. If you told me all you practiced for the past month was 2 gate, then for SURE I will get a reaper. Ok fine you will adjust, but your main plan that you wanted to try to use against me is no more. Not saying you will lose from lack of scouting, but you WILL be disadvantaged and have wasted a lot of practice time. ... also who 2gates against terran? | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
On June 25 2010 02:19 Zoltan wrote: Im just gonna throw this out there: If you can see a persons build orders and replays... how exactly does that help you in game? Even if they practiced the same build 20x in a row before your game, thats just more of an incentive for him to throw you off and do something different in the tournament game. Pro players arent stupid (thats how they get to be pros), and remember that EVERYONE can see EVERYONE ELSES stuff- so theres no imbalance there. Since everyone can do it, its 100% even steven. If someone was cheating to get replays and BOs that would be something else entierely... So you think people should practice a build 20 times then not even use it? Then why even practice at all? Making a whole silly game of throwing your opponent off by doing random builds in practice beats the whole point of practice in the first place and is against the spirit of the game. Some of the posts in this thread are horrible and don't seem to get it at all. If i were in a tournament i'd like to be able to make and execute a specific planned strategy that i practiced for, not to have to worry that it will already be known beforehand, its ridiculous. That's why leaking progaming reps is a big deal. Just because both people can do it doesn't mean its not a dumb idea. On June 25 2010 05:56 Adjudicator wrote: Knowing this, can't you just willingly pad your replay record with crappy BOs in anticipation of a trounament? Yeah, you practice hardcore for the type of BO you want to go with, then hit a bunch of custom games and randomly screw around or just test other BOs... then what? Yes they could and would have to if they only had 1 account, but the point is they shouldn't have to do this at all! | ||
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monitor
United States2409 Posts
But how can you say he will be at a disadvantage when he can do the exact same thing to his opponent? Professionals will use separate accounts for hiding build orders. The solution is to have custom game build orders be hidden. | ||
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TLOBrian
United States453 Posts
Also, he could be looking at the last few games you've played as well, and using a counter to that... Basically, everyone can do it. It is fine. | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
On June 26 2010 01:20 TLOBrian wrote: As people have said before, learning a build order and executing it are two completely different things, and I think that it is GREAT that this is in place. Why would anyone think this is a burden? Sure your opponent could be going a crazy build, and you'll suspect it, but unless you do proper scouting it doesn't matter what he has played in his last few games, he could be doing something completely different. Also, he could be looking at the last few games you've played as well, and using a counter to that... Basically, everyone can do it. It is fine. Why is any of that great? Where is the advantage here. It's just forcing people to play games in which they do a build they won't even use in the actual tournament, or use a second account. Its not the point thats its unfair, its that its completely unnecessary. | ||
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TLOBrian
United States453 Posts
On June 26 2010 01:29 infinity2k9 wrote: Why is any of that great? Where is the advantage here. It's just forcing people to play games in which they do a build they won't even use in the actual tournament, or use a second account. Its not the point thats its unfair, its that its completely unnecessary. I just don't think it really matters. If you still think that it is such a game breaker, I move that custom games should not have this, only ladder games. | ||
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Ikkuh
Netherlands170 Posts
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
I don't think anyone cares if ladder games have it, its the custom games that's the problem. | ||
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looknohands119
United States815 Posts
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Amprophet
93 Posts
Also scouting something and knowing it's a probable strategy before hand is different. We already see this. In the HDH there was an instance in which Orb put down early 2 gate harass against IdrA because he expected IdrA to expand early. It's not a sure thing that Orb will win like that but he was still playing a relatively safe strategy that had a higher than normal expected payoff because IdrA had a higher than average chance of playing a strategy that is countered by this. We are not talking about sure wins. We are emphasizing probable advantages. Note: keep in mind that the example I cited was probably not from Orb spying on IdrA's build order but more of him studying his overall playing style. Against someone like WhiteRa or TLO who like to switch up their builds for any given series, this can create a very big advantage. | ||
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AbyssV3
United States172 Posts
On June 24 2010 08:08 monitor wrote: Blizzard needs to add two privacy features to B.Net 2.0 in my opinion: 1. Privacy Setting - allow messaging in game to be turned on/off, allow/disallow people to randomly add you, turn off/on facebook intergration ... Sorry if it's already been clarified, but the first part has been created already. If you're set to "Busy" then in-game you don't get messages from people. As for adding additional privacy controls, I agree. Back when I began playing in the small tournaments, I -always- looked at the recent build orders of my opponents. In low level tournaments this is EXTREMELY helpful as most lower level players will play the same build every game - this is how I won a couple of games as well. My suggestion for a change would be to not allow someone else (who wasn't in the game) to go into a game and see all the information. Could just make it so that tab is only shown to the two that were in the game. Just a thought. | ||
Myles
United States5162 Posts
On June 26 2010 01:46 looknohands119 wrote: As Sean (Day[9]) has said many a time, the best build orders are the ones you KNOW are coming and still have trouble with. If your build orders are solid and well executed with good fundamentals it doesn't matter who sees them, you will still win. In other words, if your build order is flimsy enough or you are using such a small number of build orders that its damaging to you to have all of your replays seen by others then you probably wouldn't be winning those important tournament games anyways. IdrA (plus, everyone knows his basic builds by now if they have watched at all) and Tasteless are two people who understand the importance of solid build orders and pristine fundamentals (IdrA especially) so they are the last people I would expect this kind of stuff from... Sigh...more complete missing of the point. Of course a solid build order is the best build order. However, throwing your opponent off with a build order they never expected or have never seen before is without a doubt better for entertainment and rewards creative play instead of sticking to standards. It really boggles my mind that people can think no private practice is a good thing. No other sport in the World does it for a reason. If people are expecting to buy extra account and such to circumvent the system, than clearly there's a problem with said system. | ||
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looknohands119
United States815 Posts
On June 26 2010 01:50 Myles wrote: Sigh...more complete missing of the point. Of course a solid build order is the best build order. However, throwing your opponent off with a build order they never expected or have never seen before is without a doubt better for entertainment and rewards creative play instead of sticking to standards. It really boggles my mind that people can think no private practice is a good thing. No other sport in the World does it for a reason. If people are expecting to buy extra account and such to circumvent the system, than clearly there's a problem with said system. ^ This kind of mentality about game play is a perfect example of one of the big problems with the way the starcraft 2 community thinks about the game. My point is that you shouldn't need to surprise your enemy to win the game. You simply have to be more skillful, attentive, and practiced in your play. That is how games should be won, not by surprising your opponent. Intelligence play is and should be a part of starcraft 2 but it is and should be limited to what choice your opponent has made from a set of relatively known quantities (constantly expanding as a result of a creative player base) for this exact reason. In other words, it should be your flexibility of play and ability to execute a large variety of build orders well that keep your opponent guessing not lack of knowledge or your "secret weapon" build order. You, my friend, need to read posts more carefully because it is you who missed the point. | ||
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