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On June 24 2010 10:44 monitor wrote:
Wow. Anyone who defends this has no idea what e-sports are. In pro football teams, watching practices will get you in jail. Similar concept in e-sports.
You MUST be american, they are the only ones to make laws like that...
In football (soccer for you i guess) practices is scouted all the time, plus the opponent watches like your teams like 10 games or something to prepare, so saying not checking out your opponent prior to a big battle, is you only damaging yourself since they will be 99% doing it too...
So if you want to be top ninja style to your opponent up to a big tournament, you will probaly practice with at friend under another player alias, is that so hard.
I think the ability should stay, so lower skilled players always can watch your trial and error.
Pro gamers just need to adjust to how the game is made, its not all about them you know...
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On June 26 2010 01:50 Myles wrote:
Sigh...more complete missing of the point.
Of course a solid build order is the best build order. However, throwing your opponent off with a build order they never expected or have never seen before is without a doubt better for entertainment and rewards creative play instead of sticking to standards. It really boggles my mind that people can think no private practice is a good thing. No other sport in the World does it for a reason.
If people are expecting to buy extra account and such to circumvent the system, than clearly there's a problem with said system.
Well put. I also have a feeling day9 meant what he said more for the lower tier players than for the top tier players. If the top players are all at a relatively similar mechanics level and have similar level of knowledge of strategies, a solid standard build should not be unstoppable by any of them. If it is, then that indicates more of a balancing issue.
As a spectator, I would not like to see one player steamroll his opponent of similar level by playing a standard build that the opponent just can't deal with because of balance issues. I'd much rather see the players make creative plays, figure out timing holes, and take calculated risks.
Buying extra accounts is not a solution. It's a hack.
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United States5162 Posts
On June 26 2010 01:59 looknohands119 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2010 01:50 Myles wrote:On June 26 2010 01:46 looknohands119 wrote:As Sean (Day[9]) has said many a time, the best build orders are the ones you KNOW are coming and still have trouble with. If your build orders are solid and well executed with good fundamentals it doesn't matter who sees them, you will still win. In other words, if your build order is flimsy enough or you are using such a small number of build orders that its damaging to you to have all of your replays seen by others then you probably wouldn't be winning those important tournament games anyways. IdrA (plus, everyone knows his basic builds by now if they have watched at all) and Tasteless are two people who understand the importance of solid build orders and pristine fundamentals (IdrA especially) so they are the last people I would expect this kind of stuff from...  Sigh...more complete missing of the point. Of course a solid build order is the best build order. However, throwing your opponent off with a build order they never expected or have never seen before is without a doubt better for entertainment and rewards creative play instead of sticking to standards. It really boggles my mind that people can think no private practice is a good thing. No other sport in the World does it for a reason. If people are expecting to buy extra account and such to circumvent the system, than clearly there's a problem with said system. ^ This kind of mentality about game play is a perfect example of one of the big problems with the way the starcraft 2 community thinks about the game. My point is that you shouldn't need to surprise your enemy to win the game. You simply have to be more skillful, attentive, and practiced in your play. That is how games should be won, not by surprising your opponent. Intelligence play is and should be a part of starcraft 2 but it is and should be limited to what choice your opponent has made out from a set of known quantities (constantly expanding as a result of a creative player base) for this exact reason. You, my friend, need to read posts more carefully because it is you who missed the point.
What? Games should be won however they can be won. Expanding the ways to win is best imo. If you can win standard, do so. If you win cheesy, that's fine too. But don't restrict creative players because when they think of a new build it can be analyzed before they even use it.
I really don't see how restricting creative play if good unless you only want people to play standard macro games, which is not good for entertainment.
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I think Blizz should allow creation of multiple chars on Bnet but with a limit, similar to the char limit on WoW. That way you can have a main account to use for tourneys (in which all scouting of BO/replays is legit imo) and a practice account in which BO's and replays could remain private. It is kinda lame that you can see what someone is doing in private practice games, however in public tourneys you should always have the option of seeing your opponent's games just like in any other sport.
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On June 26 2010 02:02 Amprophet wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2010 01:50 Myles wrote:
Sigh...more complete missing of the point.
Of course a solid build order is the best build order. However, throwing your opponent off with a build order they never expected or have never seen before is without a doubt better for entertainment and rewards creative play instead of sticking to standards. It really boggles my mind that people can think no private practice is a good thing. No other sport in the World does it for a reason.
If people are expecting to buy extra account and such to circumvent the system, than clearly there's a problem with said system. Well put. I also have a feeling day9 meant what he said more for the lower tier players than for the top tier players. If the top players are all at a relatively similar mechanics level and have similar level of knowledge of strategies, a solid standard build should not be unstoppable by any of them. If it is, then that indicates more of a balancing issue. As a spectator, I would not like to see one player steamroll his opponent of similar level by playing a standard build that the opponent just can't deal with because of balance issues. I'd much rather see the players make creative plays, figure out timing holes, and take calculated risks.Buying extra accounts is not a solution. It's a hack.
The bold part is the most concerning to me here... It shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the way we develop strategies and how skill is and should be developed in a game like starcraft 2 People shouldn't (and I don't think will) win games because of balance issues (partially because Blizzard has done a pretty immaculate job of fixing these so-called balance issues and partially because, as TheLittleOne will argue, there may not be such a thing) but rather because they are players with skill, good fundamantals, solid intuition, and a deep understanding of the way different races play against one another. Also, in order to take "calculated risks," as you say, one has to know what one is up against in order to accurately make said calculations. Basically, I'm saying good fundamentals, aggressive scouting, ability to master many different play styles, and a very creative user base to come up with a large and diverse library of build orders are the things the community should value above all.
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On June 24 2010 07:45 Sorry.NotYet wrote:Hello everyone ! It is not a secret that you can add anyone by right-click in lobby or after game and see the person's build orders in many matches. Since Idra recently spoke about this question, I started thinking that practically any tournament right now is vulnerable to this problem. The fact that there is no privacy in the way you play your games ruins the competitive basis of StarCraft. My question is (since I couldnt find it on blizz forums) - is there any response from Blizzard on this matter? Are they going to fix it somehow or they don't see any problem about it? I think it is easily solvable by letting the user choose which info they want to show on their profile page (much like Facebook ^^) or at least give the opportunity to hide your match record. Since there is no privacy right now and everyone can add you - this, at least, will prevent players from studying your playstyle before you actually play with them  Any suggestions on this matter ?
This sound irrelevant. As with any tournament, anyone can watch. The idea that your build order is how your winning your games is silly. And if you are winning games from your build order; that say nothing about your skill level. Even a child can count to 10, but divide 5 by 3 and the child has more trouble.
This sounds more like a concern of people that played the old SC. I think those people need to get over it, it’s a new game designed to target the modern intelligent player, and build order say nothing about a persons intelligence.
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I like it, it only shows the first little bit of info anyway.
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I am of the opinion that all replays from pro-league being published would be a good thing (note, not custom) and wrote a column saying as much on mymym.com . At the time I wrote it, Artosis agreed with me on his show.
I feel that customs should still be private, but ladder should be public.
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Uh, you realize that it only shows the first minute or so of play? If someone knowing what you might do in the first minute will give them an advantage over you, perhaps instead you should try to have more than one strategy.
This is no different from watching tournament streams or VODs.
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On June 26 2010 02:13 Executioner.zealot wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2010 07:45 Sorry.NotYet wrote:Hello everyone ! It is not a secret that you can add anyone by right-click in lobby or after game and see the person's build orders in many matches. Since Idra recently spoke about this question, I started thinking that practically any tournament right now is vulnerable to this problem. The fact that there is no privacy in the way you play your games ruins the competitive basis of StarCraft. My question is (since I couldnt find it on blizz forums) - is there any response from Blizzard on this matter? Are they going to fix it somehow or they don't see any problem about it? I think it is easily solvable by letting the user choose which info they want to show on their profile page (much like Facebook ^^) or at least give the opportunity to hide your match record. Since there is no privacy right now and everyone can add you - this, at least, will prevent players from studying your playstyle before you actually play with them Any suggestions on this matter ? This sound irrelevant. As with any tournament, anyone can watch. The idea that your build order is how your winning your games is silly. And if you are winning games from your build order; that say nothing about your skill level. Even a child can count to 10, but divide 5 by 3 and the child has more trouble. This sounds more like a concern of people that played the old SC. I think those people need to get over it, it’s a new game designed to target the modern intelligent player, and build order say nothing about a persons intelligence.
On June 26 2010 02:16 Doomrok wrote:
Uh, you realize that it only shows the first minute or so of play? If someone knowing what you might do in the first minute will give them an advantage over you, perhaps instead you should try to have more than one strategy.
This is no different from watching tournament streams or VODs.
This and this. EXACTLY! Thank you!
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On June 26 2010 01:59 looknohands119 wrote:
^ This kind of mentality about game play is a perfect example of one of the big problems with the way the starcraft 2 community thinks about the game. My point is that you shouldn't need to surprise your enemy to win the game. You simply have to be more skillful, attentive, and practiced in your play. That is how games should be won, not by surprising your opponent. Intelligence play is and should be a part of starcraft 2 but it is and should be limited to what choice your opponent has made from a set of relatively known quantities (constantly expanding as a result of a creative player base) for this exact reason. In other words, it should be your flexibility of play and ability to execute a large variety of build orders well that keep your opponent guessing not lack of knowledge or your "secret weapon" build order. You, my friend, need to read posts more carefully because it is you who missed the point.
Do you really think, beyond a certain level, players can be that much more skillful, attentive and practiced than their opponents? How fun would you think a game is if the first 2 minutes are pre-determined standard play?
It is not about surprise, but about being able to practice your game plan with privacy. Even if your game plan is a standard build, it can make a difference. It comes down to small things like pylon blocking a fast expo hatchery before you even scout into his base. Surely he can recover from that and surely you haven't wasted much even if he wasn't trying to expand, but it feels different when someone is taking more of a risk by putting down the pylon than it does when he is putting it down just because he knows that's what you've practiced 20 times in a row.
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On June 26 2010 02:18 Amprophet wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2010 01:59 looknohands119 wrote:
^ This kind of mentality about game play is a perfect example of one of the big problems with the way the starcraft 2 community thinks about the game. My point is that you shouldn't need to surprise your enemy to win the game. You simply have to be more skillful, attentive, and practiced in your play. That is how games should be won, not by surprising your opponent. Intelligence play is and should be a part of starcraft 2 but it is and should be limited to what choice your opponent has made from a set of relatively known quantities (constantly expanding as a result of a creative player base) for this exact reason. In other words, it should be your flexibility of play and ability to execute a large variety of build orders well that keep your opponent guessing not lack of knowledge or your "secret weapon" build order. You, my friend, need to read posts more carefully because it is you who missed the point. Do you really think, beyond a certain level, players can be that much more skillful, attentive and practiced than their opponents? How fun would you think a game is if the first 2 minutes are pre-determined standard play? It is not about surprise, but about being able to practice your game plan with privacy. Even if your game plan is a standard build, it can make a difference. It comes down to small things like pylon blocking a fast expo hatchery before you even scout into his base. Surely he can recover from that and surely you haven't wasted much even if he wasn't trying to expand, but it feels different when someone is taking more of a risk by putting down the pylon than it does when he is putting it down just because he knows that's what you've practiced 20 times in a row.
Yes Amprophet, I do think that they can. That's what made starcraft 1 so incredible: That the skill ceiling was so high it still hasn't been reached, 10+ years later... Sounds like your argument is rooted more in doubts about the quality of starcraft 2 then any real argument about how it should or shouldn't be played... The incredible micro, the differences in play due to skill level and style, the intelligence game, and the large (and constantly changing) variety of creative build orders will keep play from being predetermined.
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United States5162 Posts
On June 26 2010 02:21 looknohands119 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2010 02:18 Amprophet wrote:On June 26 2010 01:59 looknohands119 wrote:
^ This kind of mentality about game play is a perfect example of one of the big problems with the way the starcraft 2 community thinks about the game. My point is that you shouldn't need to surprise your enemy to win the game. You simply have to be more skillful, attentive, and practiced in your play. That is how games should be won, not by surprising your opponent. Intelligence play is and should be a part of starcraft 2 but it is and should be limited to what choice your opponent has made from a set of relatively known quantities (constantly expanding as a result of a creative player base) for this exact reason. In other words, it should be your flexibility of play and ability to execute a large variety of build orders well that keep your opponent guessing not lack of knowledge or your "secret weapon" build order. You, my friend, need to read posts more carefully because it is you who missed the point. Do you really think, beyond a certain level, players can be that much more skillful, attentive and practiced than their opponents? How fun would you think a game is if the first 2 minutes are pre-determined standard play? It is not about surprise, but about being able to practice your game plan with privacy. Even if your game plan is a standard build, it can make a difference. It comes down to small things like pylon blocking a fast expo hatchery before you even scout into his base. Surely he can recover from that and surely you haven't wasted much even if he wasn't trying to expand, but it feels different when someone is taking more of a risk by putting down the pylon than it does when he is putting it down just because he knows that's what you've practiced 20 times in a row. Yes Amprophet, I do think that they can. That's what made starcraft 1 so incredible: That the skill ceiling was so high it still hasn't been reached, 10+ years later... Sounds like your argument is rooted more in doubts about the quality of starcraft 2 then any real argument about how it should or shouldn't be played... The incredible micro, the differences in play due to skill level and style, the intelligence game, and the large (and constantly changing) variety of creative build orders will keep play from being predetermined.
And yet SC1 pros guard their practices religiously. There is no, absolutely no, reason why you shouldn't be able to practice in private. To not have the ability to play in private without buying a new account or some other method of circumvention is absurd.
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On June 26 2010 02:11 looknohands119 wrote:
The bold part is the most concerning to me here... It shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the way we develop strategies and how skill is and should be developed in a game like starcraft 2 People shouldn't (and I don't think will) win games because of balance issues (partially because Blizzard has done a pretty immaculate job of fixing these so-called balance issues and partially because, as TheLittleOne will argue, there may not be such a thing) but rather because they are players with skill, good fundamantals, solid intuition, and a deep understanding of the way different races play against one another. Also, in order to take "calculated risks," as you say, one has to know what one is up against in order to accurately make said calculations. Basically, I'm saying good fundamentals, aggressive scouting, ability to master many different play styles, and a very creative user base to come up with a large and diverse library of build orders are the things the community should value above all.
I'm not saying the game is imbalanced...
I really don't think any of the really top players don't have good fundamentals, knowledge of when to scout, good intuition, and an understanding of their match-ups. Those aren't the areas losing them games against other pros (at least yet, in the beta so far).
On June 26 2010 02:13 Executioner.zealot wrote:
This sound irrelevant. As with any tournament, anyone can watch. The idea that your build order is how your winning your games is silly. And if you are winning games from your build order; that say nothing about your skill level. Even a child can count to 10, but divide 5 by 3 and the child has more trouble.
I don't think anyone claimed a build order is winning your game. People are claiming knowledge of an opponent's BO leads to an advantage that should not exist.
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On June 26 2010 02:30 Myles wrote:
And yet SC1 pros guard their practices religiously. There is no, absolutely no, reason why you shouldn't be able to practice in private. To not have the ability to play in private without buying a new account or some other method of circumvention is absurd.
Yea seriously we can circumvent it now with extra cash, but why force us to?
Also I found the truly revolutionary plays most entertaining to watch in SC1. Those are done by players doing something completely different from the metagame and taking the game to the next level. People practice hard, experimenting to find these revolutionary opportunities. Give them the chance to reveal their BO at a real tournament. Don't give it away for free just for right clicking their profile.
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On June 26 2010 02:31 Amprophet wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2010 02:11 looknohands119 wrote:
The bold part is the most concerning to me here... It shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the way we develop strategies and how skill is and should be developed in a game like starcraft 2 People shouldn't (and I don't think will) win games because of balance issues (partially because Blizzard has done a pretty immaculate job of fixing these so-called balance issues and partially because, as TheLittleOne will argue, there may not be such a thing) but rather because they are players with skill, good fundamantals, solid intuition, and a deep understanding of the way different races play against one another. Also, in order to take "calculated risks," as you say, one has to know what one is up against in order to accurately make said calculations. Basically, I'm saying good fundamentals, aggressive scouting, ability to master many different play styles, and a very creative user base to come up with a large and diverse library of build orders are the things the community should value above all. I'm not saying the game is imbalanced... I really don't think any of the really top players don't have good fundamentals, knowledge of when to scout, good intuition, and an understanding of their match-ups. Those aren't the areas losing them games against other pros (at least yet, in the beta so far). Show nested quote +On June 26 2010 02:13 Executioner.zealot wrote:
This sound irrelevant. As with any tournament, anyone can watch. The idea that your build order is how your winning your games is silly. And if you are winning games from your build order; that say nothing about your skill level. Even a child can count to 10, but divide 5 by 3 and the child has more trouble.
I don't think anyone claimed a build order is winning your game. People are claiming knowledge of an opponent's BO leads to an advantage that should not exist.
I guess I don't really know how many pro matches you have watched so far but I can say that I have watched over 150 in addition to the 3,000+ pro replay library I am creating and curating and I can tell you that even pros make mistakes with their fundamentals that lose them games. If build orders aren't winning and losing games then why does it matter if others see them? Heading out to watch the storm come in Lata everyone!
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The watching replays of other people pretty much made me aware that i had to play 4 cheesers out of the 5 I played in the last tournament -_-'
I'm guessing the complainers are aswell? Theres no need to hide your build, cause people can watch their own replays anyway, and if you never change your style acording to what your oponent does you might aswell quit now while no one notices ._.
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United States5162 Posts
Let me spell out the problem that I don't want.
You normally play style A. You're very macro oriented and generally play standard. Now, when you go to play player B in a scheduled match, he can look into your recent build order openings and see 'Oh look, he's only practicing his norm, I don't need to worry as much about cheeses' or 'Hey, he's going a lot of aggressive openings, I better keep that in mind'. Or, my most feared thing is looking into build orders and seeing his completely new strategy that would have completely surprised you. If he's unveiling a new strategy you should be surprised, not say 'Oh, there the strat I saw him practicing'. If a player want to hide his build he should be able to - regardless if you think it's cheesy or what.
It's extra information that players don't get now(as in SC1 proleague) and I don't see any reason to change it.
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Couldn't it be argued that having build orders visible and available will force players to be more innovative and creative? If your opponent can see your build orders, then you have to adapt and try to do what he doesn't expect.
Not to mention, it works in reverse. You can see your opponent's build orders just as well as he can see yours, it's a balance.
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United States5162 Posts
On June 26 2010 03:28 TwinHits wrote:
Couldn't it be argued that having build orders visible and available will force players to be more innovative and creative? If your opponent can see your build orders, then you have to adapt and try to do what he doesn't expect.
Not to mention, it works in reverse. You can see your opponent's build orders just as well as he can see yours, it's a balance.
How can you do something he doesn't expect if he can see what you're planning? Once he see's a previous game with a new/innovative build order he won't be surprised by it in game.
I'm not arguing it's not balanced. I'm arguing that it's dumb.
Tournaments/Ladder should be public, but you should have the ability to practice in private.
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EPT
