EPT[R] Build Orders visible to everyone battle.net - Page 7
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TwinHits
United States48 Posts
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StifSokSamurai
United States120 Posts
But to the casual gamer who only hears feint whispers of people who play this game professionally followed with cryptic lessons like, "eat your dinner Timmy or Boxer will bunker rush you..." They will be the only ones to reap the positive effects of easily obtaining BO's and not realize at what cost to others it incurred. | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
On June 26 2010 03:49 TwinHits wrote: Right, but then HE has to practice a counter build himself, which you can see him do. It cuts both way. This makes no sense and leads to even less creativity as its easier just to play safe builds than even bother with any innovation. Seriously is there any good argument for letting people see them? | ||
Myles
United States5162 Posts
On June 26 2010 03:49 TwinHits wrote: Right, but then HE has to practice a counter build himself, which you can see him do. It cuts both way. Right, which is dumb. If people could just practice in private than this whole issue would be avoided. Then we try to create our best build independent of knowing exactly what opening your opponent is doing lately(or being fooled by fake games which is even dumber). Which is exactly what we have now in proleague and it works great. | ||
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damiah
United States14 Posts
that is completely different from watching their practices (custom games). I enjoy the idea of ladder game transparency - it's very friendly to new players, but to have custom games be public is absolutely silly | ||
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Amprophet
93 Posts
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stzldzl
United States41 Posts
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Wolf
Korea (South)3290 Posts
If someone sees the build orders you are practising, does it matter in the long run ? Are you using some sort of build order that the world has never known before ? No. Are you necessarily going to use the exact same build you have been practising against your opponent ? No. Honestly, I just can't wrap my head around all the complaints. I really can't. | ||
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Myles
United States5162 Posts
On June 26 2010 04:34 ThePassingShadow wrote: Complaints about public build orders are absolutely silly. If someone sees the build orders you are practising, does it matter in the long run ? Are you using some sort of build order that the world has never known before ? No. Are you necessarily going to use the exact same build you have been practising against your opponent ? No. Honestly, I just can't wrap my head around all the complaints. I really can't. And I can't wrap my head around how you think open practice is an ok idea. I guess we all should just end this discussion. | ||
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Amprophet
93 Posts
On June 26 2010 04:34 ThePassingShadow wrote: Are you necessarily going to use the exact same build you have been practising against your opponent ? No. I don't think this discussion is going anywhere, but I want to say that the reason you practice something is you intend to use it. But hey! Since your practices are public and your opponent is going to hard counter your practice, no you're definitely not going to use what you practiced. Great point you made there! Starcraft should be about practicing one strategy and playing another! | ||
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2WeaK
Canada550 Posts
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cbkenned2009
United States55 Posts
#1] Practice Game Option, when you and an opponent play a practice game (not a custom game) the build order is not available and the replay is only available from your perspective. Practice games are private games by default (this encourages custom games as you'll find a game quickly, you have to know someone to make a private practice game). The idea of keeping build orders in custom games is because newer players may wish to practice before ladder and still have access to build orders. #2] Ladder build orders and replays are only available to people who played in the match. #3] Make Build Orders exportable from a replay. This fixes things for everyone. #1] Pros can play practice matches without revealing information, regardless of who they practice with. Newer players who are defeated still have access to the build order of their opponent. #2] This fixes the problem where you add a friend and they can access all of your build orders/etc at a later date. #3] Should you want to export a build order for a friend to see you can. I understand pros will have a lot of build orders up their sleeves; however, they of course will want to practice the ones most relevant to what they will use, and this will allow them to do this. Otherwise everything is normal for the remainder of the Starcraft community. Lets say hypothetically Idra has a new ZvP opener for when Protoss does something insane like an extremely early nexus because he assumes that Idra is not going to apply early pressure, well if Idra scouts this he can use his secret weapon still, otherwise the protoss player might expect it and play safe. He only plans to use this build once, but if it is known, then he can execute it 0 times. Had he not practiced the build sure he could provide early pressure response, but it may not be as elegant or exciting. | ||
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AlliNPreFlop
59 Posts
As a warcraft 3 player, i had a fix build for every matchup, in Sc2 i do not have a single FIX build. So have fun watching my BOs i guess? | ||
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SiNiquity
United States734 Posts
On June 26 2010 04:34 ThePassingShadow wrote: Complaints about public build orders are absolutely silly. If someone sees the build orders you are practising, does it matter in the long run ? Are you using some sort of build order that the world has never known before ? No. Ahh, excellent. Glad every line of thought with regards to build orders has been thoroughly explored and exhausted. (Conclusion A) Are you necessarily going to use the exact same build you have been practising against your opponent ? No. There's a lot going on here, so let's break it down, starting with practicing. Roughly I think we can agree it means improving on something via learning through repetition over time. Now what are we practicing? A build [order]. Granted all builds are known anyway (see Conclusion A above), but nevertheless we forge on with refining and tweaking this build into another already known build (corollary of Conclusion A, every tweak to every build is known). Why are we practicing this build order? To use against [our] opponent. Excellent. So we have spent some amount of time time, a precious non-renewable resource (and for the sake of argument, let's assume the time spent was non-negligible) to practice our build order specifically for use against our opponent. Naturally, the obvious question arises: Are we going to use this build order against our opponent? No. Of course not. Honestly, I just can't wrap my head around all the complaints. I really can't. Surprisingly, I agree. Assuming most new build orders will be discovered by pros, and since pros will necessarily have a smurf account to protect these build orders (i.e. keep them private) until the tournament, there's really nothing to complain about. So despite our sharp disagreement above, it turns out we agree on what matters. | ||
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Pharow
United States19 Posts
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Amprophet
93 Posts
On June 26 2010 05:19 Pharow wrote: Blizzard has stated previously that they believe the open access to the replays will fosted growth within the community. It's all part of a general strategy to open the game up to all levels of player. In addition, i think this will foster a faster evolution cycle in strategy development that will ultimatly benefit progamers and newBs alike. Even though I disagree with the conclusion, I think this is a good point. Now the only question is, does opened growth resulting from public practice sessions offset the cost to tournament play? We won't know for sure, but I think that growth will mostly stem from high profile tournament matches anyway. I really doubt there's going to be some kind of crazy strategy that can contribute to the community pool resulting from a practice session and isn't put to use in a tournament. | ||
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Konsume
Canada466 Posts
build orders SHOULD be displayed at the end of the game but NOT saved in your profile or at least only viewable by you and your RL friends. I think that it should be displayed at the end of the game so you can evaluate you're build vs his build and so you can understand the POSSIBILITIES of your opponent so you can see where things went wrong... or right. Note that you could do that by viewing replays before... it just took a bit longer. I think that it's small features like this that will make this game really good in the near future as everyone will get better [faster] and I don't think it's THAT game breaking... since you know... examples such as chess game being posted on the web while it's being played so everyone can study you... yet... no matter how hard you study X players style there is no way to know he'll do EXACTLY the same thing at the same time (tho you can get an idea of what he's going for..) and if you're only preparing yourself for this kind of play you might be suprised if he drasticaly switched for the tournament. I think that it could translate to SC2 as players could see all your games and such but in the end... you'll just play a bit differently and it will give a new game. That being said, I'm in the middle of all this "omg everyone can see my replays/build orders thing" and to be honest, it will only affect like 1% of the SC2 community (aka the top notch level player). Good thing bad thing? too early to tell but I know that alot of players will improve faster cause of those features! | ||
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Wolf
Korea (South)3290 Posts
On June 26 2010 04:42 Amprophet wrote: Great point you made there! Starcraft should be about practicing one strategy and playing another! Firstly, I never said that StarCraft should be about practising a strategy that is never intended to be played. Not even close. I wish people wouldn't quote me who don't understand what the word 'necessarily' means. Build orders aren't what win games. Build orders are just the start. If you play against your opponent assuming a build order, then you're putting yourself down from the beginning. Winning tournaments isn't about having the better build order and just winning because of that. It's about having a solid build order, reacting to your opponent's, and being able to adapt. If knowing your opponent's build order is enough to swing the game completely in your favour, it means that your opponent's build order is extremely easily countered, and not very solid in the first place. I understand there are some strong different opinions here, and to be honest I wouldn't mind the suggested system of having custom games' build orders hidden. Please don't reply to posts with sarcastic remarks. It doesn't help anyone, it just frustrates people and doesn't further discussion. | ||
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Amprophet
93 Posts
NOTE this only holds true if you don't want to play very safe builds all the time. If you want to play safe builds that have no early game hard counters, you'd be in the clear here. But that shouldn't be the only way to play. | ||
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damiah
United States14 Posts
On June 26 2010 04:30 stzldzl wrote: also i think you guys are forgetting when live happens, all pro league matches will have all replays available for everyone. So there really isn't a way to hide from this anyways. That's completely irrelevant, though. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I don't think professional players practice for tournaments on the ladder, just like people don't practice for Counter-Strike tournaments by joining a 24/7 de_dust server. On June 26 2010 04:34 ThePassingShadow wrote: Complaints about public build orders are absolutely silly. If someone sees the build orders you are practising, does it matter in the long run ? Are you using some sort of build order that the world has never known before ? No. Are you necessarily going to use the exact same build you have been practising against your opponent ? No. Honestly, I just can't wrap my head around all the complaints. I really can't. Imagine if nony's extensive phoenix use for the HDH Invitational had gotten out beforehand. Someone mentioned idra already with the example of orb's proxy void ray strategy. So yes, it does matter. On June 26 2010 05:15 SiNiquity wrote: Assuming most new build orders will be discovered by pros, and since pros will necessarily have a smurf account to protect these build orders (i.e. keep them private) until the tournament, there's really nothing to complain about. So despite our sharp disagreement above, it turns out we agree on what matters. You don't find that forcing players to buy another copy of the game for something that should be built-in is slightly facetious? On June 26 2010 05:19 Pharow wrote: Blizzard has stated previously that they believe the open access to the replays will fosted growth within the community. It's all part of a general strategy to open the game up to all levels of player. In addition, i think this will foster a faster evolution cycle in strategy development that will ultimatly benefit progamers and newBs alike. I agree - but I don't think anyone's complaining about the publicity of those. The issue is with custom games, which most professionals will use to practice for tournaments. If all of your practices have the potential to be observed by your opponent, it's a little facetious, no? Being forced to buy another copy of the game to keep your strategy secret? On June 26 2010 05:36 ThePassingShadow wrote: Build orders aren't what win games. Build orders are just the start. If you play against your opponent assuming a build order, then you're putting yourself down from the beginning. Winning tournaments isn't about having the better build order and just winning because of that. It's about having a solid build order, reacting to your opponent's, and being able to adapt. If knowing your opponent's build order is enough to swing the game completely in your favour, it means that your opponent's build order is extremely easily countered, and not very solid in the first place. See Ikkuh's post about the proxy void ray. I don't think anyone's saying it's a win-all maphack, but it definitely gives a rather silly advantage. | ||
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