EPTHowever, in almost every sport you can also practice a strategy in a non-public venue. There should be an option in SC2 as well.
Done. That wasn't so hard was it?
[R] Build Orders visible to everyone battle.net - Page 2
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sith
United States2474 Posts
However, in almost every sport you can also practice a strategy in a non-public venue. There should be an option in SC2 as well. Done. That wasn't so hard was it? | ||
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monitor
United States2409 Posts
There is a difference between knowing the build order and being able to perform it correctly. People don't know what is good by copying the pros. The only way you can know what is good, proper and right, is by trial and error. Knowing what is bad and why, what is good and why and by practicing. I have never looked up or copied a build order in my life... and you know what? When I watch the pro games, many of the players use the exact same build as I do. How did I get to that build? Well by cutting a probe here, waiting a little longer to build a pylon there... Basically by refining my own build that common sense taught me in my first few games. Bad players will be bad no matter how much they try to copy the good players. Good players will be good, because they know what is needed to be good... refinement, efficiency and practice. You can't copy that. Wow. Anyone who defends this has no idea what e-sports are. In pro football teams, watching practices will get you in jail. Similar concept in e-sports. Imagine this: A tournaments is hosted with a $5,000 pot for winner. The first match is you vs. Artosis. After watching replays, you find that every time Artosis gets a 15 hatch to 16 pool. Let's say you play Protoss. You get 2 gateways, and chrono-boost to 4 zealots. You march in just as he starts his spawning pool. You win-- This situation could have turned otherwise if you had not seen his replays. In any defense, please explain your knowledge and depth into Starcraft II, and please tell me why this isn't unfair. Otherwise, admit that you are wrong. What you might say: -any good player will scout this -he could get spine crawlers -use his drones to defend -change his build in game Any possible unfair advantage must be gotten rid of for a game to become an E-Sport. | ||
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OpRaider
United States307 Posts
On June 24 2010 10:44 monitor wrote: Any possible unfair advantage must be gotten rid of for a game to become an E-Sport. how is it an unfair advantage when both players can do it? Level playing field I say. If you have an opening that is weak to cheese, and you get cheesed and lose. Tough luck, try not being super greedy. | ||
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monitor
United States2409 Posts
FYI Take a look at Artosis's interview with Tasteless and Idra, they will explain it better than me. | ||
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Sylvr
United States524 Posts
It's basically a big "Fuck You" to the concept of the Metagame, because eventually, grinding out one BO to perfection will become worthless. It's putting the "Real Time" back in Real Time Strategy. It's a good change, but it requires a large-scale paradigm shift to really appreciate. | ||
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USn
United States376 Posts
On June 24 2010 10:51 monitor wrote: If one player plays on another account (all the pros will, to conceal BO's), then he can hide his builds and know what the other player is doing. FYI Take a look at Artosis's interview with Tasteless and Idra, they will explain it better than me. Yeah, it seems obvious that all pros will have multiple hidden accounts they will use for non-league games, if they even care to play in online leagues. | ||
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SnuggleKittens
Australia57 Posts
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cbkenned2009
United States55 Posts
If you have ten builds prepared in a best of 3, how do you know which one the enemy is going to do? You can't have an "all-counter" build. Likewise you have a build yourself, is your build just to counter your opponent? If thats the case I wonder how well practiced it is. | ||
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Trinton07
United States70 Posts
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AlaskaYoung
Canada14 Posts
On June 24 2010 10:44 monitor wrote: On June 24 2010 09:33 Zanez.smarty wrote: Wow. Anyone who defends this has no idea what e-sports are. In pro football teams, watching practices will get you in jail. Similar concept in e-sports. Imagine this: A tournaments is hosted with a $5,000 pot for winner. The first match is you vs. Artosis. After watching replays, you find that every time Artosis gets a 15 hatch to 16 pool. Let's say you play Protoss. You get 2 gateways, and chrono-boost to 4 zealots. You march in just as he starts his spawning pool. You win-- This situation could have turned otherwise if you had not seen his replays. In any defense, please explain your knowledge and depth into Starcraft II, and please tell me why this isn't unfair. Otherwise, admit that you are wrong. What you might say: -any good player will scout this -he could get spine crawlers -use his drones to defend -change his build in game Any possible unfair advantage must be gotten rid of for a game to become an E-Sport. Your example is invalid. Why would Artosis go 15 hatch 16 pool in all his games? What evidence even remotely suggests that he'd use this BO in every single game? Even then, I'm pretty sure the tournament wouldn't be a bo1, and that Artosis would switch his build up for games 2 and 3. Then what would you do, considering the only build you've seen from him was 15 hatch 16 pool? Anyway, I didn't post to defend whoever you quoted, just posted to say that even examples need to be fair. In your example, Artosis was comparable to a coat rack. On topic, other people have already pointed out that simply being able to restrict viewing limits on custom games would be enough to please the crowd. | ||
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MenacingVitamin
United States50 Posts
On June 24 2010 11:01 Sylvr wrote: I love that everything is made public. It makes players think on their feet and be creative. It forces players to have a much broader repertoire of possible builds and encourages a more firm knowledge of the fundamentals. It's basically a big "Fuck You" to the concept of the Metagame, because eventually, grinding out one BO to perfection will become worthless. It's putting the "Real Time" back in Real Time Strategy. It's a good change, but it requires a large-scale paradigm shift to really appreciate. This. I really hope the best players out there are the least robotic. Also, can we remember that Starcraft 2 isn't ONLY about pro gaming and money tournaments? I'd bet pro gamers will make up less than one-tenth of a percent of all the players who will be playing this. If that. | ||
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palanq
United States761 Posts
On June 24 2010 07:45 Sorry.NotYet wrote: I think it is easily solvable by letting the user choose which info they want to show on their profile page (much like Facebook ^^) or at least give the opportunity to hide your match record. I see no downside to this. Give the option to share game list, build order, replays, etc... with no one, with everyone, with friends only, with real-ID friends only, etc. | ||
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Invictus
Singapore2697 Posts
I feel that we should just wait and see how things goes and what the top players say | ||
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
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Fefnir
United States50 Posts
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Kinslayer
United States129 Posts
I don't think it's that big of a deal but I am sure a lot of people will nerd rage over this now that chat is kinda done. | ||
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
Even though it does seem kind of shitty, it's only shitty for the people already high level players. Change is inevitable and this kind of thing will only speed up the development of this game to the highest level of play. It's not necessarily a bad thing for esports like idra,tasteless, and artosis all agreed. They were only looking to the negative/personal view of it. You have to make a list of pros and cons for both personal and global use of this kind of thing before you can say it's bad or good. | ||
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tedster
984 Posts
This is like a fastball pitcher coming out and throwing knucklers for an entire game. Yeah, it would be totally awesome except he NEVER GOT TO PRACTICE THROWING THE KNUCKLEBALL. This is absolutely a ploy by blizzard to force every pro player to have smurf accounts, and probably several. | ||
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tedster
984 Posts
On June 24 2010 12:50 Cloak wrote: For those who say this will ruin competitive play. What's the outcome of two players who have "figured out" each other's build? They can't both come out ahead. The outcome is shitty games determined entirely by guesswork and outside activities and not in-game action or clever strategies This should be completely self-evident if you just thought a bit about your own post. | ||
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DanielD
United States192 Posts
On June 24 2010 13:49 tedster wrote: So many horrible and ignorant posters in this thread. If you really think pro-level players can "fake" a build byactually running a build they haven't practiced at all in the tournament game, and that this is somehow an acceptable and +EV solution, you don't know anything whatsoever about practice and competitive gaming. This is like a fastball pitcher coming out and throwing knucklers for an entire game. Yeah, it would be totally awesome except he NEVER GOT TO PRACTICE THROWING THE KNUCKLEBALL. This is absolutely a ploy by blizzard to force every pro player to have smurf accounts, and probably several. Right, except that you aren't a versatile Starcraft player if you can't 'throw more than one pitch', and you can scout your opponents next swing if you micro properly and time it right. Just because the Korean progamers have players that practice as snipers to do one build against one player doesn't mean thats how SC2 needs to be. | ||
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