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On April 09 2010 10:58 Crisium wrote:
Almost every unit has higher DPS and/or more health in SC2. Fine. But even though Hydras just got a nerf, and are slower than SC1 (off creep anyway), they are wickedly good. 75/25/1 got you ~10dps versus large, and ~5dps versus small (and 7.5 against the rare medium). 100/50/2 is overall less than a double increase. And it gets you ~16dps versus large (less than double - fine) and ~16dps versus small (over 3 times).
You forget to mention that hydralisk HP didn't go up at all. Paying almost twice as much for a unit with exactly the same HP is of course a terrific deal. /sarcasm
You forgot that mention that zerglings do less damage as well.
Very self serving argument.
Expect more Zerg units to get a nerf if spawn larva does not. They are STILL too strong for the amount you get.
Sure, right after MULE and Chrono boost are nerfed too. Queens don't exist in a vacuum. They exist within the context of a new game where every race has the ability to accelerate production.
Like most of these arguments, yours boils down to "Different races are different, so nerf the one that I don't play to be like mine, except in the ways where mine is advantageous."
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On April 09 2010 11:09 Wintermute wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2010 10:58 Crisium wrote:
Almost every unit has higher DPS and/or more health in SC2. Fine. But even though Hydras just got a nerf, and are slower than SC1 (off creep anyway), they are wickedly good. 75/25/1 got you ~10dps versus large, and ~5dps versus small (and 7.5 against the rare medium). 100/50/2 is overall less than a double increase. And it gets you ~16dps versus large (less than double - fine) and ~16dps versus small (over 3 times).
You forget to mention that hydralisk HP didn't go up at all. Paying almost twice as much for a unit with exactly the same HP is of course a terrific deal. /sarcasm You forgot that mention that zerglings do less damage as well. Very self serving argument. Show nested quote +
Expect more Zerg units to get a nerf if spawn larva does not. They are STILL too strong for the amount you get.
Sure, right after MULE and Chrono boost are nerfed too. Queens don't exist in a vacuum. They exist within the context of a new game where every race has the ability to accelerate production. Like most of these arguments, yours boils down to "Different races are different, so nerf the one that I don't play to be like mine, except in the ways where mine is advantageous."
The units which completely dominate this game are not lings and hydras, but roaches and banelings. Both of these units are very larva intensive. Spawn larva makes these units stronger than they ever should be.
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When I beat a zerg, it's because I gain some massive advantage earlygame with harass, outeco, and then push while he's trying to catch up in economy. I have to be winning all game to beat zerg. It sounds like you're saying that you have to gain an advantage and then utilize that advantage to win. May I ask how you beat the other races?
Usually what occurs is I do a midgame timing attack and his army clashes with mine and I usually am left with a tiny force at the end. Then zerg makes 40 roaches at once and kills me. If your armies clashed and they were of equal strength. Yet, the Zerg has enough resources to instantly make 40 roaches, then the game was over long before your armies clashed. It sounds like you're being out macro'ed.
In BW, zerglings were extremely cost efficient, but they also sucked up all your larva. It was a massive larva investment to make lots of lings, so you couldn't drone at the same time, and you couldn't make higher tech units too. Spawn larva increases the amount of larva available to the point where you don't have to make choices anymore. You could stockpile larvae in BW by building lots of hatcheries. Yes, queens make it more efficient but you'll notice that each race can produce units more efficiently in SC2. Your problem is not with "spawn larvae" so much as the way Zerg has always produced units. Maybe, you're not utilizing your race's improved unit production capabilities?
I think that I understand what you're trying to assert here with this entire post, that Zerg should not have the ability to produce excessive amounts of units at once because the other races cannot produce at the same rate. But you've completely disregarded the other half of unit production: Resources. Drones are not free. Units are not free.
edit:
Like most of these arguments, yours boils down to "Different races are different, so nerf the one that I don't play to be like mine, except in the ways where mine is advantageous." Well put. Zerg production is different because it was designed to be so and the race was balanced accordingly.
P.S. Awesome name Wintermute, my WoW character's name is Neuromancer ^^
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EGGS
AREN'T
FREE.
These threads and all similar are looking at it all wrong. The limiting factor isn't really how many larvae you have, but the resources you accumulate and the cost per units. Larvae are merely a vessel for you to spend properly.
Just as reactors exist and chronoboost/warpgates exist, spawn larvae exists. They are all simply vessels to facilitate spending.
Without spawn larvae, Z would be stuck in BW production ages while all other races have boosts.
And what the hell does "larvae intensive" mean? ALL zerg units come from larvae.
This thread is a complete apples and oranges argument, though I know now that no one who starts these threads ever goes back on their opinions. These imba threads are all a damn waste of time.
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On April 09 2010 11:35 Floophead_III wrote:
The units which completely dominate this game are not lings and hydras, but roaches and banelings. Both of these units are very larva intensive. Spawn larva makes these units stronger than they ever should be.
First of all, you're the one that brought up hydras. I just pointed out the error you made. Now you're trying to go back and pretend that hydras aren't an issue when you just said they were.
Second, you haven't once addressed the fact that protoss and terran also have macro mechanics which allow them to do things that zerg can't do (such as speed research, or gain extra saturation from minerals via MULEs). Use some of those extra terran resources to make extra barracks, and voila, problem solved. Use those chrono boosts to rebuild your forces quickly after a battle. Voila, problem solved.
You still haven't demonstrated a problem, just a way in which zerg are different.
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I don't understand why people don't see it, so I'll explain again:
Protoss and terran have to spend money on production structures. In addition they need enough production to make not only enough units, but also enough of whatever unit they need.
Zerg's production comes from the hatchery, and they do not need to spend more money to sway their production more into one part of the tech tree than another.
The way this is balanced out is zerg has to choose what to do with their larva, drones, overlords, or military.
In addition, zerg was limited in BW in how they could spend their larva because many units, such as hydralisks and zerglings, were very good in large numbers, but also took up a lot of larva and so required substantial additional production in the form of more hatcheries. Therefore, zerg had to spend a good bit of money and time to increase their production, allowing them to actually spend their money on army compositions which were larva intensive.
In SC2, zerg now has access to spawn larva. Spawn larva enables zerg to use fewer hatches to attain the some production. However, because spawn larva is SO good, it leads to the following problems:
-Zerg now do not have to spend nearly the number of resources/time to attain the same level of production. While terran has more resources to spend (at least on barracks), and protoss has more efficient production with warpgates + chrono, they still need to spend a lot of time and money growing their production. Keep in mind that production is a 1-time cost. The later the game goes, the more zerg benefits from a better scaling production system, as terran and protoss must keep spending money on production, but zerg does not.
-Larva heavy armies are not an issue for zerg now because they have such easy access to so many larva.
-Zerg can actually save up larva if they don't have the money to use them. In BW they could do this as well, but only up to 3. In SC2 the max is 19!!!! Granted you should never reach 19, but it is very possible to end up with 1 hatchery with 10+ larva stored up while you waiting for your economy or tech to kick in. This is not unreasonable, especially if you're spending all your minerals on drones from 1 hatchery and saving larva/gas for when tech (spire/den/etc) finishes.
-Lategame zerg no longer has to worry about having constant and consistent macro. Because spawn larva produces so many larva, just using it when you have the chance is more than enough to support your macro. This makes for exceptionally easy macro which lowers the skill level of zerg, something which is bad for competitive play.
Now it's clear that without spawn larva zerg will be completely dominated because of the macro abilities of the other races. However, the changes I proposed are necessary to minimalize the aforementioned problems.
-By introducing a lower larva cap (5-7 is reasonable), zerg is forced to manage their larva at ALL points in the game, and is punished for bad macro. It also promotes the use of more hatcheries to increase the larva stockpile max.
-By reducing the number of larva spawned, the queen's cost efficiency falls back in line with that of the hatchery, again giving a choice to zergs. It also helps keep zerg production per cost more in line with the other races.
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As far as balance goes, I am not credited enough to say much... However, from a standpoint of a zerg player I can say that I hated having to be 1 base ahead of T and P in BW. Having queens that can help your larvae count nullifies the need to be one base ahead.
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On April 09 2010 12:54 studmac wrote:
As far as balance goes, I am not credited enough to say much... However, from a standpoint of a zerg player I can say that I hated having to be 1 base ahead of T and P in BW. Having queens that can help your larvae count nullifies the need to be one base ahead.
The real reason you had to be "one base ahead" was indeed a byproduct of needing the extra hatcheries for larva. You would place them at an expansion if you had enough map control to get away with it, but you didn't really utilize the expansion fully for a long time. People realized you could kill two birds with 1 stone by doing early expand builds. However, vs terran you couldn't really fight early bio pushes on two fronts since you needed sunkens. Vs toss you could expand twice because forge FE took so long to become aggressive. Notice how in ZvZ people often place hatcheries in their main if they don't have map control to hold it at an expo. That's because you still need the larva, but you can't get away with expanding while growing production.
However, you still need to early expand vs terran or protoss in SC2. Taking a 3rd is less essential though. A fully saturated 2 base zerg has an awful lot of larva to play with.
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Some people aren't going to be happy until they have a 100% win rate against zerg.
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Anyone actually like this floop guy? Anyone think he makes sense? zerg is the weakest race since patch 8. From the get go Zerg was given (i think three) less attacking units thus less options as to counters and varying strategies. And now they nurfed our two main units. Its not like they nurfed our reactor core which makes mech a equal and or better option. They nerfed the units we HAVE to make. Zerg is now weaker EVERY game. And yet ur still whining about our race. QQ moar.
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The guy is talking into the wind.
What he fails to see is the comparison between MULEs and Queens. Very basic math here... each Queen built instead of a hatch = 200-300 minerals saved (at the very best), each MULE dropped = 300 minerals gained. Neither of these mechanics are hugely imba, and the Terran one is in fact far better due to the 50 sec CD on each OC. If queens didnt exist Zerg would simply make more hatcheries. Close thread please.
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Dude. You keep saying "In SC1 Zerg had to do this for good macro, and now they don't because of SPAWN LARVAEEEEE". Then you completely fail to look at the new unit making abilities of the Terran and Protoss.
"In SC1 Terran needed 2 barracks's to make 2 marines and now they can do it with one, NERF PLZ!!!!!"
I've been watching all the tournaments posted on the front pages of this site. And I can only imagine how ugly the games would be for Zerg with a nerfed spawn larva. Seems like they lose most of the time in those tournament anyway.
PRODUCTION OF UNITS ISNT THE SAME IN SC2, GET OVER IT.
Terran make shit faster, Protoss make shit faster, Zerg make shit faster. End of story
Your stupidity actually pushed me to actually make an account on this site, just to post this. I hope you're happy for wasting my time.
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I don't agree with some of your points regarding your examples 'cause they're kinda over-exaggerating. And I don't think Zerg is the complete focal point of the balance problem of SC2 but I completely agree with the spawn larva being too good.
The queen makes more larva than a hatchery and that should definitely be revamped. Why bother making a hatchery at all when you can make a queen and get even more larva?
Perhaps a larva cap isn't necessary. I think all they really need to do is to just lower the amount of larva spawned to 2 or 3.
@ Johoseph: Because you just made an account you obviously haven't been around TL for very long. Ever since beta started, no before beta started, top SC players have been saying spawn larva may be too good. Now that beta's been going on for a while, those sentiments still haven't disappeared. Although you don't see as many people talking about that now because there are other, more pressing issues of balance, I have yet to see a single top SC or SC2 player say that spawn larva is completely and perfectly fine the way it is.
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Whatever Ryuu. I see you posting in other threads about this too. You and Floop should go get married and continue your DOWN WITH SPAWN LARVA crusade together foreeeever~~
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Baa?21243 Posts
If Blizzard listened to advice like this, SC2 is gonna go down the path of RA3 where a balanced game in need of minor tweaking, due to incessant whining by one faction of players (Allied fanboys in RA3's case), became a terribly imbalanced game that met its demise in less than half a year.
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On April 09 2010 09:13 grieve wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 09 2010 08:21 w_Ender_w wrote:
Zerg just plays differently then the other races. If you weaken their ability to produce units quickly and erratically, then you need to heavily buff the units they do produce. As Zerg, it's all about the choices you make. I can't both produce workers and units, so I have to time my lulls in army production and scout very well and avoid cheese.
Larvae (like creep) are a RESOURCE for Zerg, same as Minerals and Gas. Damaging our econ by killing 10+ workers, like an above poster mentioned, isn't worthless because we can quickly replace them; it still costs us the minerals, and it costs us important Larvae that we generally need to desperately fight off timing pushes. As it stands we generally need to heavily out-supply the opponents army to win army vs army, because our units are rather flimsy. People say "that's what Zerg is about" but then also say "they shouldn't be able to make so many units"?
Fine, nerf larvae production down to Terran and Protoss level production. But don't complain if our units get buffed up, and never complain about a lack of diversity, because then all the races really will play pretty much the same. Easily the most sensible post in this thread.
Thanks! I try to make a bit of sense at least.
Now, let's not turn this into a "bash Floophead" session here. Guy makes some valid points, and he certainly has the right to bring up potential balance issues. That being said, I don't particularly agree. Perhaps spawn larvae could be changed, but as it is, it's what keeps Zerg players from being completely overrun, particularly in mid-game. And saying Larvae are a free macro mechanic is like saying scouting is free for Terran's because they can Scan. Please refer to my earlier post in the spoiler tags.
If you want Spawn Larvae to be changed to make it so Zerg players can't easily mass military units as a reactionary measure, you need to heavily modify Zerg as a race. You can't both have "Zerg units are supposed to be weak and die very quickly" and "Zerg shouldn't be able to out produce me" at the same time. Zerg has to outproduce opposing players in order to win, primarily due to a lack of powerful units that can tank and/or deal splash damage. We don't have the Colossus, the Immortal, the legions of Zealots. We don't have the Thor, the Siege Tank, or the Marauder. We have the slightly nerfed Roach that can take a few shots, and literally nothing else that can stand in front of an army. Our armies melt. We rebuild them, and win by outnumbering people. That's the Zerg way.
If you want to change that so we don't have to win by outnumbering enemy forces, and give us stronger units with less production ability... then you've made Zerg exactly like the other races, but with less unit diversity, less micro-able units, and less cool tricks. Do you really want that?
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On April 09 2010 14:32 Johoseph wrote:
Whatever Ryuu. I see you posting in other threads about this too. You and Floop should go get married and continue your DOWN WITH SPAWN LARVA crusade together foreeeever~~
Actually spend more than 20 minutes on TL and read more threads before you start bashing on people and making stupid points. I'm no veteran poster by any means but I've sure as hell have been on here much longer and read more threads than you have. Don't just come into TL forums and start bashing people. Or you could keep doing this and get banned from TL. I don't mind either way.
EDIT: And if you actually read any of my post you'll see that I disagree with Floop like 90% of the time.
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On April 09 2010 14:41 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2010 14:32 Johoseph wrote:
Whatever Ryuu. I see you posting in other threads about this too. You and Floop should go get married and continue your DOWN WITH SPAWN LARVA crusade together foreeeever~~ Actually spend more than 20 minutes on TL and read more threads before you start bashing on people and making stupid points. I'm no veteran poster by any means but I've sure as hell have been on here much longer and read more threads than you have. Don't just come into TL forums and start bashing people. Or you could keep doing this and get banned from TL. I don't mind either way.
And the fact that I just signed up for this site a few minutes ago makes you think IIIII would mind? You two may not be "bashing" other people, but you're both definitely ignoring the hell out of other people's opinions, just trying to force your own on everyone. Seriously, you guys are churning out small novels in several threads ENTIRELY aimed at nerfing Zerg. Excuse me if your incredibly committed attempt to bring the bat down on Zerg makes it hard for me to believe what you're spouting.
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On April 09 2010 14:49 Johoseph wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2010 14:41 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 09 2010 14:32 Johoseph wrote:
Whatever Ryuu. I see you posting in other threads about this too. You and Floop should go get married and continue your DOWN WITH SPAWN LARVA crusade together foreeeever~~ Actually spend more than 20 minutes on TL and read more threads before you start bashing on people and making stupid points. I'm no veteran poster by any means but I've sure as hell have been on here much longer and read more threads than you have. Don't just come into TL forums and start bashing people. Or you could keep doing this and get banned from TL. I don't mind either way. And the fact that I just signed up for this site a few minutes ago makes you think IIIII would mind? You two may not be "bashing" other people, but you're both definitely ignoring the hell out of other people's opinions, just trying to force your own on everyone. Seriously, you guys are churning out small novels in several threads ENTIRELY aimed at nerfing Zerg. Excuse me if your incredibly committed attempt to bring the bat down on Zerg makes it hard for me to believe what you're spouting.
Or you could, you know, actually read more than one or two threads where we aren't throwing the nerf stick at Zerg. In fact Floop actually wanted to nerf Protoss in some of his posts. And how are we ignoring other people's opinions? Why else would we post shit that's supposed to be discussed? That's what the [D] stands for in the thread title btw. Especially this mechanic, which has been mentioned as a balance issue for a LONG time.
Just stfu and get off TL.
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On April 09 2010 14:40 w_Ender_w wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2010 09:13 grieve wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 09 2010 08:21 w_Ender_w wrote:
Zerg just plays differently then the other races. If you weaken their ability to produce units quickly and erratically, then you need to heavily buff the units they do produce. As Zerg, it's all about the choices you make. I can't both produce workers and units, so I have to time my lulls in army production and scout very well and avoid cheese.
Larvae (like creep) are a RESOURCE for Zerg, same as Minerals and Gas. Damaging our econ by killing 10+ workers, like an above poster mentioned, isn't worthless because we can quickly replace them; it still costs us the minerals, and it costs us important Larvae that we generally need to desperately fight off timing pushes. As it stands we generally need to heavily out-supply the opponents army to win army vs army, because our units are rather flimsy. People say "that's what Zerg is about" but then also say "they shouldn't be able to make so many units"?
Fine, nerf larvae production down to Terran and Protoss level production. But don't complain if our units get buffed up, and never complain about a lack of diversity, because then all the races really will play pretty much the same. Easily the most sensible post in this thread. Thanks! I try to make a bit of sense at least. Now, let's not turn this into a "bash Floophead" session here. Guy makes some valid points, and he certainly has the right to bring up potential balance issues. That being said, I don't particularly agree. Perhaps spawn larvae could be changed, but as it is, it's what keeps Zerg players from being completely overrun, particularly in mid-game. And saying Larvae are a free macro mechanic is like saying scouting is free for Terran's because they can Scan. Please refer to my earlier post in the spoiler tags. If you want Spawn Larvae to be changed to make it so Zerg players can't easily mass military units as a reactionary measure, you need to heavily modify Zerg as a race. You can't both have "Zerg units are supposed to be weak and die very quickly" and "Zerg shouldn't be able to out produce me" at the same time. Zerg has to outproduce opposing players in order to win, primarily due to a lack of powerful units that can tank and/or deal splash damage. We don't have the Colossus, the Immortal, the legions of Zealots. We don't have the Thor, the Siege Tank, or the Marauder. We have the slightly nerfed Roach that can take a few shots, and literally nothing else that can stand in front of an army. Our armies melt. We rebuild them, and win by outnumbering people. That's the Zerg way. If you want to change that so we don't have to win by outnumbering enemy forces, and give us stronger units with less production ability... then you've made Zerg exactly like the other races, but with less unit diversity, less micro-able units, and less cool tricks. Do you really want that?
I feel like BW zerg was actually more reliant on tech units and tech advantages than any other race. Look at ZvT nowadays. Players build mostly tech units early which function with maximum efficiency per larva so they can drone. Why can't players do that in SC2 as well. Right now all SC2 zerg play seems to be is make tons of units and attackmove. Just watch Idra. The guy literally is the king of mass macro zerg right now. He also has a ridiculous ladder winrate and is dominating quite a bit in tournaments. All he seems to do is not die to stupid cheese and macro. Is this really what we want zerg to be in SC2?
Reducing the amount of available larva means you have to pick the most EFFICIENT means of fighting. Sure you can beat someone with mass speedling, but wouldn't a few infestors and banelings be a better use of your larva? What about just making 8 mutas instead of those 50 speedling? Obviously just random examples, but the point is that zerg was always about finding the most efficient way to use larva. In SC2 it's only about finding the most efficient way to use money by making the right army composition and massing it. That makes for really uninteresting play and will completely kill the lifespan of this game.
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