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On April 09 2010 02:40 dogabutila wrote:
You make it sound like zerg has some amazing winrate. They are barely playable post patch-8. I play random and I'm about to choose either Terran or Toss because they are pretty crap now. Maybe if there were maps wherein flanking was actually possible zerg would be playable...but in the current build with the current mapset... They arnt.
Roaches are supposed to be tanks, yet they are squishy and melt, hydras melt faster. And at this point in the game mutas are a nuisance but not game ending unless you tried to just mass straight zealots. How exactly do you propose a zerg win without any larva with squishy ass units?
Havent lost a game post patch to zerg, I've only won once as. And there was a game I should have won but apparently didnt set a hotkey and was trying to macro nothing...
I never said zerg is imbalanced and is winning everything. I said zerg is broken. The balance lies in the inability of zerg to fight off early pressure, but if they do they can literally mass roach or mass baneling to victory. There is no unit for terran besides the marauder that can deal with mass roach.
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On April 09 2010 02:52 Jugan wrote:
At the point I had 19 SCV's, he had over 30 drones, which is a little ridiculous.
Its actually pretty fair considering that you also have mules and that he have to sac a drone for every building he makes, or unit he create.
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Im going to echo my sentiments from antoher thread that got closed on this matter:
I believe this is intentional. Zergs are the race that is most affected by its opponents action (or inaction) based on their unique build structure. The fact that they have to chose between producing combat units and harvesters (droneing as the op calls it) forces its opponents to either apply pressure or allow the zerg to relentlessly macro harvesters and expand. The more pressure applied to the zerg the less economy that player will be allowed to have, therefore it makes perfect sense for the zerg player to be able to win once hes allowed time to get a full economy running.
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I haven't really seen a problem. I mean you say if you decide to play passive, zerg takes the map and rolls you. Well, you deserve it for not scouting and denying expansions frankly. I don't know the exact math but I think if spawn larvae was THAT imbalanced and broken then bliz would have nerfed the larvae count long ago. If top plat players are really having trouble with this then maybe take off one of the larvae it spawns?
To be honest though, i'm rank 14 Gold zerg, and as far as timing goes, I use every single larvae as soon as it bursts and I can BARELY get a single hydra out in time for a banshee harass. If I even had one less larvae, that would mean one less drone every X seconds of larvae spawn time per hatch/queen, and then I would have less minerals when my lair pops. probably have to wait to drop my hydra den, wait to spawn hydras, get rolled by banshees and life would suck.
Do you not think orbital command would be broken for the same reason? you can save up two OC's worth of energy, land a CC on a high yield, drop 8 mules and your economy is ridiculous.
As far as I have seen, the macro mechanic features for all races are very balanced and benefit the style of the race, in fact, it even helps define the style. If anything, I would say chrono boost needs a buff, OC and queen should stay the way they are
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On April 09 2010 02:55 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2010 02:40 dogabutila wrote:
You make it sound like zerg has some amazing winrate. They are barely playable post patch-8. I play random and I'm about to choose either Terran or Toss because they are pretty crap now. Maybe if there were maps wherein flanking was actually possible zerg would be playable...but in the current build with the current mapset... They arnt.
Roaches are supposed to be tanks, yet they are squishy and melt, hydras melt faster. And at this point in the game mutas are a nuisance but not game ending unless you tried to just mass straight zealots. How exactly do you propose a zerg win without any larva with squishy ass units?
Havent lost a game post patch to zerg, I've only won once as. And there was a game I should have won but apparently didnt set a hotkey and was trying to macro nothing... I never said zerg is imbalanced and is winning everything. I said zerg is broken. The balance lies in the inability of zerg to fight off early pressure, but if they do they can literally mass roach or mass baneling to victory. There is no unit for terran besides the marauder that can deal with mass roach.
So mass marauder?
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Its funny that whenever a thread like this comes up, you'll see overwhelming favor of the suggested nerf - from people who don't play the race. Its also funny that the majority of these players try very hard to disguise their own bias.
"Well gee uh, I play terran and yeah this definitely pisses me off when I lose to Zerg. I've tried everything and you just simply can't stop <insert unit composition here>"
The reality of it is, as much as some of you try to convince yourselves that you're merely seeking balance and fairness in the starcraft world - you're not. You want the other two races that you don't play nerfed to the point where you no longer struggle with them. I'm sure many of you will jump at the chance to claim that I'm wrong, but posts from this thread and many other threads like this prove otherwise.
Yes, I play Zerg. If the majority of suggested changes in this thread were implemented, Zerg would simply not be able to keep up, regardless of macro. Putting a cap on the larva would greatly damage Zerg. Reducing the amount of larva spawned by 1 or 2 is debatable, but not absolutely absurd like some of the other suggestions.
I don't expect this type of nerf-everything-but-my-own-race mentality to ever stop, because its prevalent in pretty much any other game as well, but people reading this thread should be mindful of the heavy bias that is at work here.
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On April 09 2010 03:30 grieve wrote:
Its funny that whenever a thread like this comes up, you'll see overwhelming favor of the suggested nerf - from people who don't play the race. Its also funny that the majority of these players try very hard to disguise their own bias.
"Well gee uh, I play terran and yeah this definitely pisses me off when I lose to Zerg. I've tried everything and you just simply can't stop <insert unit composition here>"
The reality of it is, as much as some of you try to convince yourselves that you're merely seeking balance and fairness in the starcraft world - you're not. You want the other two races that you don't play nerfed to the point where you no longer struggle with them. I'm sure many of you will jump at the chance to claim that I'm wrong, but posts from this thread and many other threads like this prove otherwise.
Yes, I play Zerg. If the majority of suggested changes in this thread were implemented, Zerg would simply not be able to keep up, regardless of macro. Putting a cap on the larva would greatly damage Zerg. Reducing the amount of larva spawned by 1 or 2 is debatable, but not absolutely absurd like some of the other suggestions.
I don't expect this type of nerf-everything-but-my-own-race mentality to ever stop, because its prevalent in pretty much any other game as well, but people reading this thread should be mindful of the heavy bias that is at work here.
I've played as all races. I'm suggesting a rebalance of the game around a nerf. Right now zerg cannot be allowed to get to lategame, regardless of how many bases protoss or terran has. This is unacceptable. The game needs to be fixed so zerg has more strength earlygame, but not overwhelming strength lategame. As terran I feel like I have a timer until I lose. If I let the game go too long I can't possibly win. As zerg I felt like I was just struggling to survive vs allins. The problem isn't balance, it's the way it's balanced.
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As a top 10 terran player myself I definitely have to agree that zerg macro is much better than terrans. You pretty much have to pressure them all game and prevent them from expanding more than once or twice, because zerg macro is better than terran macro. I feel like terran vs zerg is pretty balanced early-mid game if you attack early and often, but if you let it get into late game it's pretty much always a loss.
I'm not sure how I would balance the zergs late macro game without hurting their early/mid game, however, and a flat spawn larva nerf would obviously hurt the race too much.
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@Floophead_III
Post the god damn replay finally or stop whining.
Late game zerg with equal food supplies ( talking about 150+ supply battle's 20+ minute into game ) gets DESTROYED in both ZvP and ZvT due to massive AOE effects, if u dont realise that you are bad. Rebuilding fast is the only option there is.
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Spawn larva is broken.
Zerg has access to infinite larva once he gets 2 hatch 2 queen. I have trouble spending my larva with 2 hatch 1 queen, adding a second means I'll be able to make infinity of anything I want provided i have the money.
If you have trouble spending larvae off 2 hatch 1 queen your economy is too weak.
Also, what's with this use of infinity? It's completely ridiculous; you need infinite time to make infinity of everything and RESOURCES ARE NOT INFINITE.
Try this:
Terran has access to infinite units once he gets 1 CC, 1 Barracks, 1 Factory, and 1 Starport. I have trouble spending my money with just 1 CC 5 seconds into the game. Adding a bunch of other buildings means I'll be able to make infinity of anything I want provided I have the money.
Oh, and newsflash' supply cap is 200 supply.
If zerg is allowed to drone, they can make more units in a shorter timeframe than either of the other races. Protoss can somewhat compensate because warpgates and chronoboost pump out units very very quickly. Terran is screwed because reactors only work for 4 units.
"If zerg is allowed to drone". We're not playing 4v4 BGH 60 minute No rush. If he's droning you're making probes or scvs or expanding or killing him or whatever.
"they can make more units in a shorter timeframe than either of the other races." No they can't. what if terran has 20 barracks with 10 reactors and 10 tech labs? Yeah, exactly. We have to compare TIME to get 2 hatches 2 queens + RESOUCRCES needed to make production facilities. I'd wager 2 base terran can easily beat a zerg staying on 2 base. You have mules therefore more money and more efficient units.
Therefore, to balance the game, protoss and terran are given the ability to keep zerg down completely: terran has reapers which on some maps actually keep a zerg from expanding ever. Protoss has proxygates which are virtually unstoppable, and chronoboost to get those zealots out ridiculously fast. In addition, terran has viking/banshee play, which if not scouted can end the game very quickly. Protoss has voidrays which do the same thing effectively.
When I beat a zerg, it's because I gain some massive advantage earlygame with harass, outeco, and then push while he's trying to catch up in economy. I have to be winning all game to beat zerg.
Both of these are indicative of a 1 base playstyle. So you can harass/gain an advantage off 1 base through superior tech since he expanded and has to defend. It's the same as SC:BW: In 1 base vs 2 base you either do damage or you lose. Of course you need to get an advantage to win.
If I play a fairly passive macro game, one of 2 things occurs:
-I get steamrolled by banelings
-Zerg expands as well and drones up
Banelings aren't really much of an issue for mech, so that's why I usually play mech.
However, if zerg is allowed to drone up to match terran economy, zerg can produce so many roach you can't beat him. Usually what occurs is I do a midgame timing attack and his army clashes with mine and I usually am left with a tiny force at the end. Then zerg makes 40 roaches at once and kills me.
I don't think your personal experience can justify an imbalance thread, unless you're like of the top players. If e.g FA was to post here I'd give it more respect. Getting steamrolled by banelings? Huh? Zerg expanding as well and droning up sure that's the natural response. But if he's droning up 3 base fully I doubt he can stop your 'timing' attack or whatever off 2 base. Remember, he has lots of larvae not lots of money. If he's spending all money on drones it will take time to have the economy kick in AND larvae aren't as fast as you think it does take time to build up an army.
If zerg can produce 40 roaches at once he needs 40 larvae saved. That means he basically used none of his queens larave in like 5 minutes so that's not a midgame timing push.
The rest of your post is
1: Comparing BW zerg to SC2 zerg. If zerg in SC2 didn't have spawn larvae they'd lose horribly. You can NOT keep up with chrono boost and MULE's with just 2-3 hatch.
2: Saying that zerg is easy because of no larvae management. There still is, you just have more larvae to play around with. YOU DO NOT HAVE INFINITE LARVAE. You just have more. Unless you're playing 'poor' you will be able to use your larvae. Also, as random I consider Protoss as by far the easiest race to play, followed by zerg followed by terran. Mechanically at least. Getting spawn larave on time in the middle of a game is just not being done by >ANY< zergs right now consistently at least.
3: Apparantly zerg wins lategames because
a: You are ALWAYS at 200/200 in lategame
b: You ALWAYS have enough money to reproduce your army
c: Fights happen at 200/200 AFTER the zerg is given time to spam spawn larvae enough.
Your post feels like you are acutally believing the 'infinite' crap at the start of your post. Spawn larvae is like having extra hatcheries. Great. Cheap extra hatcheries and this gimmick thing of saving larvae for 200/200 battle's which happens in about .01% of games anyway.
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I am not going to argue with your reasons at all, but there have been a multitude of tournaments happening and zerg have not been dominating them at all, and that was before the roach/hydra nerf. It is hard to imagine that top players wouldn't be able to abuse the lategame OPness of zerg to be winning everything.
Unless you want to suggest that every game a zerg loses it is because of constant harass, which hasn't seemed to be the case in the games I have watched.
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if you turtle with just building some army, leaving your opponent alone, you shouldnt really be surprised that he beats you.
Its the same with all races, maybe zerg players tend to exploit that quicker because its a long zerg tradition, but other players will do the same.
besides, you can always just build your MMM ball with ravens and lol at the cute zerg.
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On April 09 2010 04:20 LaNague wrote:
if you turtle with just building some army, leaving your opponent alone, you shouldnt really be surprised that he beats you.
Its the same with all races, maybe zerg players tend to exploit that quicker because its a long zerg tradition, but other players will do the same.
besides, you can always just build your MMM ball with ravens and lol at the cute zerg.
This doesn't particularly seem logical. I mean, if the zerg turtles with just building some army, leaving his opponent alone, he should be surprised when he.... wins ?
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This post is shit, you make absolutely zero valid arguments. Zerg obviously produces more units faster because they are meant to be a massing race. Zerg doesn't have any extremely powerful units like tanks/thor/collossi/etc and win by numbers. If you let a zerg tech to ultras, that's quite a fail right there. Broodlords? Get destroyed by vikings and toss can just blink stalkers and focus them down or storm
Lets see... PRE-patch 8, LZ (T) vs idra (Z) going to late game, mass roach/hydra vs mass m&m&m, LZ wins. Or in one of the triple strike tournament games (ZvP), early 5-gate all-in vs FE zerg, zerg manages to hold it off with great play and win the game. Early game zerg is fine when done right, late game zerg is fine to deal with when done right.
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I can't help but feel that OP is either too early with this thread(since the new patch hasn't been out for even a day and it nerfed two of the most used units in the zerg arsenal) or it's too late. What I mean by too late is that OP is basically saying that zerg has a hard time getting rid of it's units(they live too long) and z can thus save up a shit ton of larva for drones or a new army(once the current one dies out) but now that hydras die easier to t1 units and roaches die easier to everything it's a different game(only a question of how different).
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I think the main issue is that there is less skill required anymore to manage your larva for eather drones or units. SC1 zerg players have to make choices every time and this needs practice and thinking.
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I often have the same or better economy than the terran that rolls right over me. so idk Where ur coming from. If ur bad and playing a better player its not spawn larva that gave him an advantage... Make a game and play a zerg today. No matter what race u choose he has no chance. I surely agree that zerg should be a race that masses a lot of weak units but they have weakened our units without lowering the prices. So we zerg players are paying top dollar for weak / slow / useless units. zerglings and banelings seem to be the Only unit with any usefulness and after the early game even that is out the window. praying for a better patch soon -_-
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The thing about spawn larvae is, If you miss a spawn larvae, you will never get it back unless you share a queen with 2 hatches which is very inefficient. Unlike terran and protoss mechanics where you can just spam mules or chronoboost, there is no way to make up for the 4 larvae you missed. Arguably you can spawn a tumor or heal something, but overlords do the same job, and I think 4 larvae is better than a heal 99% of the time. This makes every spawn larvae so much more important than muling or boosting
rank 1 in gold
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I do think spawn larva needs some tweeks. Like spawn 2-3 larva with a cap of some sort.
I also thought of a different way to handle this though.
Since the main reason this skill exists is because Zerg need the larva to make more workers; since they get consumed upon constructing a building. It wouldn't be difficult for Blizzard to make it so that every time you hatch two drones you get an extra larva. That way if you're building workers you can keep building them but also be able to support that with some other unit construction.
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I'm guessing this is a just a long rage post about zergs. We need larva to produce any kind of units, drones or army, but hey guess what you can build scv AND build an army too! I often find myself actually needing more larva (we need a good amount of lings to deal with marauder, thors, immortal and stalkers) so I have to build a 3 hatch with 2 base. I'm guessing you haven't played zerg yourself so you're just speaking as a terran here. You should play a couple of games (40ish) to understand the race before making such a statement.
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EPT
