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On September 06 2012 10:20 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 10:17 DarthPunk wrote:
Where is Shady? He had a 5 page filter Day One in my last game with him and loves to take a town leadership position right off the bat as town. I can understand your meta changing somewhat in a non-newbie/ game of this size. But this is a dramatic shift in style. Which game are you referring to. I would like a reference so I can get an idea of his town playstyle.
I was in Death Note Mafia with him and he was very active and aggressive in the early game. Could be blue/ninja though so it's best left until actually actively scummy people are all dealt with before we start looking at no-shows.
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On September 06 2012 10:22 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 10:20 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On September 06 2012 10:17 DarthPunk wrote:
Where is Shady? He had a 5 page filter Day One in my last game with him and loves to take a town leadership position right off the bat as town. I can understand your meta changing somewhat in a non-newbie/ game of this size. But this is a dramatic shift in style. Which game are you referring to. I would like a reference so I can get an idea of his town playstyle. NMM XXIV His Filter
Thank you, will take a gander at it now.
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On September 06 2012 10:22 BlackMamba24 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 10:20 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On September 06 2012 10:17 DarthPunk wrote:
Where is Shady? He had a 5 page filter Day One in my last game with him and loves to take a town leadership position right off the bat as town. I can understand your meta changing somewhat in a non-newbie/ game of this size. But this is a dramatic shift in style. Which game are you referring to. I would like a reference so I can get an idea of his town playstyle. I was in Death Note Mafia with him and he was very active and aggressive in the early game. Could be blue/ninja though so it's best left until actually actively scummy people are all dealt with before we start looking at no-shows.
Perhaps but I still like getting an idea of his playstyle. Makes it easier for me to analyze him over the course of the game.
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On September 06 2012 10:04 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 09:59 Hapahauli wrote:On September 06 2012 09:54 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On September 06 2012 08:39 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On September 06 2012 07:17 Ottoxlol wrote:On September 06 2012 07:03 Bill Murray wrote:
Ottox you care to make a top 3 scumread like I have? sorry to say you need vigged, but it'd be better if you would stop posting, or actually.. you know... do some work by reading filters and making logical cases ...wow this looks like coaching. I see... I see... maybe I should ease up on my suspicion of Forumite.
Scum could easily just be playing the lurker game this game, but if that's the case, let 'em sit back while players like BC and Toad get confirmed. Toad is scum. Hapahauli confirmed my suspicions by his last post, he's purposely trying to skew the discussion. I think these two are defending their mates by not letting the Matt discussion go on -> the other 2 possibly are lurkers who voted on Matt with no real content. imallinson Z-BosoN Shady Sands DarthPunk ShiaoPi BlackMamba24 goodkarma all voted Matt after Palmar's announcment and provide little to no reasoning. Bad town or scum can easily be among them See I am not sure if anyone else caught this as I am still reading / catching up but no where in the OP does it tell me that I can see how many red's there are. As in town doesn't know how big the mafia team is. By telling us that happa + toad are defending matt and the other two are lurkers means you KNOW THERE ARE 5. So, I say we off you next. If Palmar said the exact scum team numbers somewhere I have missed I apologize for my outburst and will find other people to hang. For those who missed it the first time. He clearly states happa + toad are trying to defend their "mates" or in this case "mate" by trying to drop the matt discussion. This is 3 reds. He then states the other 2 mafia are lurkers who voted with no real content then generically lists a bunch of lurkers and DrH who has been one of the most active players in the game. But he told us 5. 2 defending 1 and then 2 in a group of lurkers. It wasn't I think there are two more or anything. he clearly outlines 2 defending their scumbuddy by shutting down conversation (lul as that wasnt the reason they argued with him) and 2 in lurkers. Guy outright mislabeled one of the most active players calling him a "lurker" and outed the mafia team # as 5. Burn him with fire. Perhaps I'm reading this wrong, but isn't he suggesting 4 mafia members in that post? At the time he made that post, I was under the impression that he thought Mattchew was town. Disagree. He clearly states defending their mates by not allowing the discussion to go on. The only person the discussion "defended" was mattchew. You nor toad were from what I read were defending a ton of people by shutting down that conversation, you were trying to stop dealing with a troll. The only person who was being defended in that entire conversation (by otto) was mattchew. We know mattchew was red, he gave 2 people ahead 2 people behind. I honestly believe its a scumslip I could have horribly misread it and if so I am certain more than you will inform me as such, however take this and apply it to everything said about otto by players like drH. Do you honestly see him otto as town? Can you explain his behaviour at all as something a town member would do. I sure as hell can't.
Disagree as well - "defending their mates" is very different from "defending Mattchew." Note that mates is plural. Then consider that he mentions 2 other scum lurkers. I think it's pretty clear what his intentions are.
But consider this hypothetical:
95% of the town thinks Player A is scum. Player A is confirmed scum. Hypothetical townie hard defends Player A. Does it make sense for this hypothetical townie to defend Player A when he's 100% sure to get lynched/shot the next day?
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On September 06 2012 10:18 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 10:15 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 06 2012 10:06 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On September 06 2012 10:03 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 06 2012 09:58 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
BC says the same thing i'm saying about how he lied about my arguments/activity level but I guess when he says it people agree
whatever
@boson my main case against ottox is him not pushing his reads and completely ignoring peoples arguments/logic while pushing his defense which is exactly what suggests that he has a preconceived agenda
no one is gonna listen to me in this game so ill keep doing what i'vebeen doing which is make a point, wait for BC to repeat it so that everyone suddenly agrees lol
Wtf?? He introduced a totally different argument!! Are you even reading right now? I got that from your post and I said those were supporting arguments but not enough to say omfg let's lynch him, due to my experience with SolarSail. However, the scumslip pointed out by BC is subtle and very VERY likely for a scum under pressure to make. the 5 mafia slip is the least important part of the whole thing because even I just assumed there were 5 scum, in fact idr if i posted it but i might have posted a scumteam guess that was exactly 5 Then why did you say that BC repeated your arguments and said the same thing you did? I clearly gave emphasis to the one he had just added. Well, we are just at a difference of opinion then, you think that his attitude and behavior is more lynch-worthy than him defending matt and this "scumslip". I insist yet again you read SolarSail on XXIV, here, it's pretty fast: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=359489&user=273717 It sums up why I think his behavior could be more bad play than scum play. At least now we both agree that without a doubt loloxtott must die. Also I did endorse all of what he said so drH saying I repeated it isn't a lie. I also added the bit that I see as a scumslip.
It isn't a lie, but I felt he directed it at me, and I made reference specifically to the "scumslip" you pointed out, while ALSO having responded to his claims, not yours.
I can see a townie being a belligerent asshole. It becomes harder for me to see a townie being a belligerent asshole who spent much time hard defending a scum and gave a possible scumslip.
Also, Hapa does have a point regarding the count. I didn't realize it was before the matt lynch. If he was claiming that matt is town, then by his count, the mafia number is 4. Has there ever been a normal game with only four mafia?
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Shady was scum in XXV but he still was very active and tried to take a leadership role early also. Meh just odd as I have played/obs 3 of his last games and it doesn't fit.
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On September 06 2012 10:18 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 10:16 Gravan wrote:I think Bill Murray is scum. Also, Hapahauli, what is your read on Gravan? Scum or town? I don't want you using the word Null. Pick one. Scum or town? Consider yourself having a Gun to your head. This is the first time he mentions me. At this point, he hasn't put forward any kind of read on me at all. In addition, many of his posts up until this point (not to mention quite a few afterward) are pointless one-liners, or just generally non-contributing. The next thing he does is tell austin to read my filter as if I was scum (again, not argument put forward on his part - he is talking as if me being scum is a forgone conclusion). + Show Spoiler +On September 06 2012 07:18 austinmcc wrote:
Show nested quote +
Looking through his profile, I see his only other game was LIII. So he's at least played, although not with me. But he knows that some of the people in this game played that game, he played with them, he knows they are competent individuals with functioning brains.
It's the first time I've ever seen someone cling to something absolutely wrong in this manner. I have posted paranoid rants in two games, stuck by them for a while as possibilities, gotten upset if people wouldn't consider them as possibilities, but I didn't get like this.
Right now (and if Matt flips scum I will be more certain of the read) I can't help but read the whole thing like this:
Matt got caught
Ottoxlol tried to save him, without realizing how bad an idea it was
Ottoxlol shortly realized how bad an idea it was
A decent scum player told him right after he got caught looking very odd that he couldn't back off his defense, because then he'd look even scummier
So he went full bore nuts, and that's why he won't listen to anyone or anything
It doesn't feel like he's just obtuse. At some point he'd get the message. It feels like he's clinging to this.
Do me a favor, and go read Gravan's filter as if he were a scum idiot Then he goes on to say that hap is on his scumlist for "coaching" me. + Show Spoiler +On September 06 2012 07:23 Hapahauli wrote:
Show nested quote +
Null. Deal with it.
His posts/logic right now could come from either mafia or bad-townie. I don't have enough information to make a decision since hasn't posted much. Fortunately we have 48 hours to make a read on him.
yeah youre on my scum list
so is gravan
you openly coached him Afterwards, he includes doyouhas in this list. + Show Spoiler +filter
On September 06 2012 07:27 imallinson wrote:
Show nested quote +
I'd say Gravan looks real scummy right now. He attempted the same thing as Ottox, defending Matt by saying he was probably an assassin, but much more quietly and backed away as soon as he realised it was a bad idea. If anything that looks more scummy than Ottox at the moment.
THANK YOU.
Go read Gravan's filter, and tell me if you don't find hapa coaching him?
2nd person I've caught him coaching that looks like scum with him (Doyouhas is the other) His next two posts that mention me go on to mention (offhandedly) the apparently obvious need to have me shot by a vig. Further, if you read his filter he is very non-comittal on the otto-defending-matt-and-generally-acting-scummy issue. His posts are passively worded and just softly agree with the flow of the thread at the time. This is the worst case I've ever seen.
Typically, when one argues against another, a counter-argument has to be presented. Since it appears as though I am on some people's chopping blocks, some discussion could be useful. Just denouncing my case gets town no-where.
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Come on guys, now you are just embarrassing yourselves. what difference does it make in my post if there are 4-5-6-7-8 scum? If that is a scumslip in your opinion.. I really hope you guys get your shit together
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On September 06 2012 10:28 Ottoxlol wrote:
Come on guys, now you are just embarrassing yourselves. what difference does it make in my post if there are 4-5-6-7-8 scum? If that is a scumslip in your opinion.. I really hope you guys get your shit together
OK. Then can you answer my case against you? or are you just going to ignore it like you ignore common sense, logic and everyone else in the thread?
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On September 06 2012 10:26 Gravan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 10:18 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 06 2012 10:16 Gravan wrote:I think Bill Murray is scum. Also, Hapahauli, what is your read on Gravan? Scum or town? I don't want you using the word Null. Pick one. Scum or town? Consider yourself having a Gun to your head. This is the first time he mentions me. At this point, he hasn't put forward any kind of read on me at all. In addition, many of his posts up until this point (not to mention quite a few afterward) are pointless one-liners, or just generally non-contributing. The next thing he does is tell austin to read my filter as if I was scum (again, not argument put forward on his part - he is talking as if me being scum is a forgone conclusion). + Show Spoiler +On September 06 2012 07:18 austinmcc wrote:
Show nested quote +
Looking through his profile, I see his only other game was LIII. So he's at least played, although not with me. But he knows that some of the people in this game played that game, he played with them, he knows they are competent individuals with functioning brains.
It's the first time I've ever seen someone cling to something absolutely wrong in this manner. I have posted paranoid rants in two games, stuck by them for a while as possibilities, gotten upset if people wouldn't consider them as possibilities, but I didn't get like this.
Right now (and if Matt flips scum I will be more certain of the read) I can't help but read the whole thing like this:
Matt got caught
Ottoxlol tried to save him, without realizing how bad an idea it was
Ottoxlol shortly realized how bad an idea it was
A decent scum player told him right after he got caught looking very odd that he couldn't back off his defense, because then he'd look even scummier
So he went full bore nuts, and that's why he won't listen to anyone or anything
It doesn't feel like he's just obtuse. At some point he'd get the message. It feels like he's clinging to this.
Do me a favor, and go read Gravan's filter as if he were a scum idiot Then he goes on to say that hap is on his scumlist for "coaching" me. + Show Spoiler +On September 06 2012 07:23 Hapahauli wrote:
Show nested quote +
Null. Deal with it.
His posts/logic right now could come from either mafia or bad-townie. I don't have enough information to make a decision since hasn't posted much. Fortunately we have 48 hours to make a read on him.
yeah youre on my scum list
so is gravan
you openly coached him Afterwards, he includes doyouhas in this list. + Show Spoiler +filter
On September 06 2012 07:27 imallinson wrote:
Show nested quote +
I'd say Gravan looks real scummy right now. He attempted the same thing as Ottox, defending Matt by saying he was probably an assassin, but much more quietly and backed away as soon as he realised it was a bad idea. If anything that looks more scummy than Ottox at the moment.
THANK YOU.
Go read Gravan's filter, and tell me if you don't find hapa coaching him?
2nd person I've caught him coaching that looks like scum with him (Doyouhas is the other) His next two posts that mention me go on to mention (offhandedly) the apparently obvious need to have me shot by a vig. Further, if you read his filter he is very non-comittal on the otto-defending-matt-and-generally-acting-scummy issue. His posts are passively worded and just softly agree with the flow of the thread at the time. This is the worst case I've ever seen. Typically, when one argues against another, a counter-argument has to be presented. Since it appears as though I am on some people's chopping blocks, some discussion could be useful. Just denouncing my case gets town no-where.
You chose a poor person to analyze. Bm is like chezinu and incredibly hard to pin down normally. You typically have to rely on things like scumslips to catch either of them or take look at the overall effort they put into a game.
Now given that. You're analysis is very lacking, and looks like cherry picking. You don't include examples or even a link to his filter to prove your case. It seems rushed and made by someone backed into a corner. If you are town you should have no reason to feel rushed, you have plenty of time to post your thoughts.
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On September 06 2012 10:28 Ottoxlol wrote:
Come on guys, now you are just embarrassing yourselves. what difference does it make in my post if there are 4-5-6-7-8 scum? If that is a scumslip in your opinion.. I really hope you guys get your shit together
Get our shit together? You spent the entire gd day arguing with people and defending a scum player and not only are you not addressing all the other points against you, you opted to point out at only what I said?
Its the word choice you used, and if this is your only contribution since reading the thread while you caught up you obviously give two shits about this game or the town.
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On September 06 2012 10:31 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 10:26 Gravan wrote:On September 06 2012 10:18 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 06 2012 10:16 Gravan wrote:I think Bill Murray is scum. Also, Hapahauli, what is your read on Gravan? Scum or town? I don't want you using the word Null. Pick one. Scum or town? Consider yourself having a Gun to your head. This is the first time he mentions me. At this point, he hasn't put forward any kind of read on me at all. In addition, many of his posts up until this point (not to mention quite a few afterward) are pointless one-liners, or just generally non-contributing. The next thing he does is tell austin to read my filter as if I was scum (again, not argument put forward on his part - he is talking as if me being scum is a forgone conclusion). + Show Spoiler +On September 06 2012 07:18 austinmcc wrote:
Show nested quote +
Looking through his profile, I see his only other game was LIII. So he's at least played, although not with me. But he knows that some of the people in this game played that game, he played with them, he knows they are competent individuals with functioning brains.
It's the first time I've ever seen someone cling to something absolutely wrong in this manner. I have posted paranoid rants in two games, stuck by them for a while as possibilities, gotten upset if people wouldn't consider them as possibilities, but I didn't get like this.
Right now (and if Matt flips scum I will be more certain of the read) I can't help but read the whole thing like this:
Matt got caught
Ottoxlol tried to save him, without realizing how bad an idea it was
Ottoxlol shortly realized how bad an idea it was
A decent scum player told him right after he got caught looking very odd that he couldn't back off his defense, because then he'd look even scummier
So he went full bore nuts, and that's why he won't listen to anyone or anything
It doesn't feel like he's just obtuse. At some point he'd get the message. It feels like he's clinging to this.
Do me a favor, and go read Gravan's filter as if he were a scum idiot Then he goes on to say that hap is on his scumlist for "coaching" me. + Show Spoiler +On September 06 2012 07:23 Hapahauli wrote:
Show nested quote +
Null. Deal with it.
His posts/logic right now could come from either mafia or bad-townie. I don't have enough information to make a decision since hasn't posted much. Fortunately we have 48 hours to make a read on him.
yeah youre on my scum list
so is gravan
you openly coached him Afterwards, he includes doyouhas in this list. + Show Spoiler +filter
On September 06 2012 07:27 imallinson wrote:
Show nested quote +
I'd say Gravan looks real scummy right now. He attempted the same thing as Ottox, defending Matt by saying he was probably an assassin, but much more quietly and backed away as soon as he realised it was a bad idea. If anything that looks more scummy than Ottox at the moment.
THANK YOU.
Go read Gravan's filter, and tell me if you don't find hapa coaching him?
2nd person I've caught him coaching that looks like scum with him (Doyouhas is the other) His next two posts that mention me go on to mention (offhandedly) the apparently obvious need to have me shot by a vig. Further, if you read his filter he is very non-comittal on the otto-defending-matt-and-generally-acting-scummy issue. His posts are passively worded and just softly agree with the flow of the thread at the time. This is the worst case I've ever seen. Typically, when one argues against another, a counter-argument has to be presented. Since it appears as though I am on some people's chopping blocks, some discussion could be useful. Just denouncing my case gets town no-where. You chose a poor person to analyze. Bm is like chezinu and incredibly hard to pin down normally. You typically have to rely on things like scumslips to catch either of them or take look at the overall effort they put into a game. Now given that. You're analysis is very lacking, and looks like cherry picking. You don't include examples or even a link to his filter to prove your case. It seems rushed and made by someone backed into a corner. If you are town you should have no reason to feel rushed, you have plenty of time to post your thoughts.
First off, while I understand a player's meta is something to consider, I really have no idea what you are talking about with respect to how Bill plays or whoever this chezinu is.
I included at least three examples. See those quotes/spoilers? All of them include quotes from Bill Murray.
As to being rushed, well, I am just trying to not lurk. Apparently that is a bad thing to do - working on putting my thoughts out there and trying to stimulate discussion.
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On September 06 2012 10:24 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 10:18 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On September 06 2012 10:15 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 06 2012 10:06 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On September 06 2012 10:03 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 06 2012 09:58 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
BC says the same thing i'm saying about how he lied about my arguments/activity level but I guess when he says it people agree
whatever
@boson my main case against ottox is him not pushing his reads and completely ignoring peoples arguments/logic while pushing his defense which is exactly what suggests that he has a preconceived agenda
no one is gonna listen to me in this game so ill keep doing what i'vebeen doing which is make a point, wait for BC to repeat it so that everyone suddenly agrees lol
Wtf?? He introduced a totally different argument!! Are you even reading right now? I got that from your post and I said those were supporting arguments but not enough to say omfg let's lynch him, due to my experience with SolarSail. However, the scumslip pointed out by BC is subtle and very VERY likely for a scum under pressure to make. the 5 mafia slip is the least important part of the whole thing because even I just assumed there were 5 scum, in fact idr if i posted it but i might have posted a scumteam guess that was exactly 5 Then why did you say that BC repeated your arguments and said the same thing you did? I clearly gave emphasis to the one he had just added. Well, we are just at a difference of opinion then, you think that his attitude and behavior is more lynch-worthy than him defending matt and this "scumslip". I insist yet again you read SolarSail on XXIV, here, it's pretty fast: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=359489&user=273717 It sums up why I think his behavior could be more bad play than scum play. At least now we both agree that without a doubt loloxtott must die. Also I did endorse all of what he said so drH saying I repeated it isn't a lie. I also added the bit that I see as a scumslip. It isn't a lie, but I felt he directed it at me, and I made reference specifically to the "scumslip" you pointed out, while ALSO having responded to his claims, not yours. I can see a townie being a belligerent asshole. It becomes harder for me to see a townie being a belligerent asshole who spent much time hard defending a scum and gave a possible scumslip. Also, Hapa does have a point regarding the count. I didn't realize it was before the matt lynch. If he was claiming that matt is town, then by his count, the mafia number is 4. Has there ever been a normal game with only four mafia?
Fair, but I feel from reading that people to a degree really are ignoring his posts overall. I say the # is 5 because the only person they could be defending by shutting down the mattchew conversation is mattchew. By shutting it down and stopping thread from talking about it it would allow anyone to bring up another case and potentially force a misslynch. Keep in mind the arguments being done by otto that were being responded to were still for ages under the hypothetical situation that millers were self aware -_-
As such in the case of "self aware millers" the only person being defended by happa / toad was mattchew. As dropping that discussion would let another potential lynch target be brought up. However they were arguing shit for awhile that didn't matter or wasn't possible given this setup.
IE he names 2 reds, the person they were defending and 2 others given his horrible logic. I obviously am slightly bias'd as I think he's red and that screams scumtell to me.
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Screw this, got to wake my sis up in 2,5 hours anyway... might as well stay up those 2,5 hours and sleep afterwards :p
About DYH:
On September 06 2012 10:08 DoYouHas wrote:
@BC and Toad - I disagree. If Matt wasn't red then Hopeless' actions no longer are an attempt to divert a bandwagon on scum. At least half my case is showing that he did exactly that. If Matt was green then Hopeless' case on Forumite becomes far more innocuous.
[...]
That wasn't actually the reason I made a "?".
You're case results in Matt being bussed by Hopeless1der and you said your case would be way weaker without Matt flipping red.
The important part is not wether or not you think he got bussed (clearly he got bussed).
The important part is your order of thought.
- You think Hopeless1der bussed Matt
- Because you think Hopeless1der bussed Matt you do a case
- You consider your case strong because Matt flipped red.
That is a mafia approach to make cases. Hopeless1der bussing Matt is the conclusion you should get from making a case.
It never is the reason to make a case.
You saying that your case only holds true with matt's red flip shows that you did the case the wrong way.
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Gaiz. Something's wrong with BlackMamba24/DoctorHelvetica (henceforth DrH).
I've been arguing with him back and forth about Miltonkram, and DrH has taken a wildly inconsistent stance on him throughout the game.
Note, that none of this depends on my read of Miltonkram - it's valid either way.
Here is DrH's first mention of MiltonKram:
On September 05 2012 09:11 BlackMamba24 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 07:19 Hopeless1der wrote:On September 05 2012 07:15 Hapahauli wrote:On September 05 2012 07:08 Miltonkram wrote:@ Hapahauli I didn't intentionally misrepresent you. I thought Darth had voted Mattchew before the little back and forth between you two. I was tired after a long day of work, and so I got things mixed around. You can see how scummy that would make you look from my perspective when I first made the case against you. @ BC On September 05 2012 05:48 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On September 05 2012 04:20 Miltonkram wrote:On September 04 2012 20:59 Hapahauli wrote:On September 04 2012 19:29 Miltonkram wrote:Now that we're 99% sure Mattchew is scum I'd like everyone to turn their attention to Hapahauli. On September 04 2012 10:26 Hapahauli wrote:As for an early-game scumread, I'm suspicious of DarthPunk. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=15#285In his only substantial post, he's very critical of the early-game play of two players. He calls mattchew's vote "retarded" but doesn't attempt to say if it's scummy or not. He doesn't ask questions about their motives - he's just critical, and that seems scummy to me. ##Vote DarthPunk He chainsaw defends Mattchew after Mattchew recieves pressure from DarthPunk. All the while he avoids actually commenting whether he thinks Mattchew seems guilty or not. Then he spends time needling the conversation to a point where DarthPunk is willing to unvote Mattchew until BC comes in and blows that shit up (like a bauss). Other than that he's been plenty forthcoming with town reads, but he has yet to seriously pursue a scum read. I'd like everyone to turn to Miltonkram for straight up lying about post history. This would be the biggest pile of crap I've seen in the thread if it wasn't for the Mattchew fake-claim. Scum coming in late and trying to make the best of a bad situation IMO. Then he spends time needling the conversation to a point where DarthPunk is willing to unvote Mattchew until BC comes in and blows that shit up (like a bauss). At that point in the game, DarthPunk hadn't voted for mattchew yet. DarthPunk never votes until Palmar confirms the lie. Looks like we have scum #2 - using misinformation to make a key component of his "case" stronger. Or I just thought DarthPunk had voted for Mattchew already. My mistake. He had put pressure on Mattchew though and thus I would call Hapahauli's attack on DarthPunk a chainsaw defense. If you look at the back and forth between Hapa and Darth you see that Hapa backs off only when Darth starts backing off from Mattchew. On September 04 2012 11:12 DarthPunk wrote:On September 04 2012 10:51 Hapahauli wrote:
Okay this is getting nowhere fast. Howbout this - other than being "retarded", does it make you lean one way or another toward Mattchew's alignment? As to Mattchews alignment. He claimed Nosy neighbour. As far as I am concerned if he is not a nosy neighbour it will become apparent over time if he was lying. So I would like to take a wait and see approach. I don't feel like his posts are pro town. Perhaps I am missing things and it is going over my head. But clarity and Transparency are preferable to what has been going on during the last few pages. That's fair. Your responses seem townie enough - I'd ##unvote if votes in this thread actually counted =P This sticks out to me because it tells me that Hapa's goal was not to pressure Darth, but to take pressure off of Mattchew. What had Darth done to deserve the BOTD from Hapa? I may be blind here, but where did Darth seriously push mattchew? I see him point out voting for someone who distrusted the claim as retarded and happa jump on him for it. Would that mean everyone who called me a liar for calling mattchews claim bullshit chain saw defending him? I honestly do not see this case you are seeing, I see two people moderately arguing over a choice of wording being in this case "retarded". Everything I can see (maybe my dyslexia is kicking in here) is that they argued over poor word choice and darth never stood down from his opinion, nor did happa. They commented on word choice, it was explained out by both people and once discussed they moved on. I honestly think unless you can provide me any real analysis here a new case as I just do not see or comprehend what you do here. I see your point. Perhaps I'm reading too much into this. Problem is that it wasn't just the vote. You had a second bit as well, and that's way too coincidental: Other than that he's been plenty forthcoming with town reads, but he has yet to seriously pursue a scum read. Other than me not "seriously pursue[ing] a scum read" being absurd given the game length at the time (barely a few hours), you quoted the scumread I was pursuing in your own post. That's not just 1, but two lovely instances of you lying in the same post. The whole point of his case is that you pushing DP wasn't a real scum read, it was errant Day 1 bullshit. Which most of the thread was at that point. I still think he's scummy because that's a shitty case at the time it arose, but it's reasonably consistent, despite the misinformation. Just like my early premature vote on Hapahauli in Death Note made me scum? It's not scummy. What's scummy, hapa, isn't his case, it's that he's avoiding talking about the relevant happenings in town and pointing out something completely different. Here's what happens when one scum has heat on him or one scum is majorly involved in some sort of town argument/drama: Little scum come out and say "oh, yeah this is interesting what's going on but look at random poster X, he did something kinda a little weird so we should lynch him instead!" And maybe it was a little weird. I personally don't like hapahauli's playstyle and it gave me the wrong impression of him in Death Note. A lot of people auto-assume I'm scum because I say policy lynches are stupid, I'll never vote for someone for lurking, I'll never post "reads", I don't answer peoples questions if I think they're dumb, etc. I think that Milton made a mistake worth looking into and if you couple that with the fact that he posted it how he did and when he did, yeah it's suspicious. I think vigilantes or trackers should take a serious look at this dude tonight. If Mattchew does flip blue or black or whatever though, then that means there isn't much of a case beyond someone made a kinda bad case or a mistake and that doesn't totally indicate alignment. Not enough to lynch him over all the shitstorm that will occur whenever mattchew flips what he does.
Lookie lookie - DrH think's Miltonkram is suspicious. Suspicious enough to suggest a tracker check on Miltonkram.
DrH doesn't mention Miltonkram again until this post:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=40#795
1. People who went actively or softly against the Mattchew lynch: Ottoxlol/Gravan
2. People who came in after Palmar confirmed it and made fluff posts
3. At least one active person, probably Bill Murray. He's seemed to focus a lot on people like MiltonKram/Hapahauli neither of whom are scummy at all and meanwhile his rhetoric/language seems very much an attempt to buddy up with me or other people.
Whatwhatwhatwhat?!!? This is a huge shift in attitude! It's almost as if DrH forgot he was suspicious of Miltonkram. Look at "point #2" and then at Miltonkram's filter - Miltonkram fits point number 2 to a tee, yet DrH thinks Milton isn't scummy at all!!!!!!
DrH continues to defend MiltonKram after this post. Notice that DrH is very reluctant to give a definitive read on Milton, and instead attacks me for "unjustly" tunneling him.
You're right, just because ottoxlol defended someone who flipped scum says absolutely nothing about his alignment. If you paid attention, you'll notice that has very little to do with why I'm saying he's scum.
I just read MiltonKram's filter. He made a simple mistake regarding timing with DarthPunk, he voted for Mattchew, put a little pressure on you and you overreacted. Sound familiar? I've made worse mistakes in this game. Completely overlooking Goodkarma's vote which was the whole point of my case on him, etc. but you never called me out for that? Take the blinders off.
You remind me a bit of youngminii, a player who was otherwise okay but as soon as anyone questioned him or FoS'd him he'd flip his lid. He actually shot me twice (once as dayvig once as nightvig) when I was town because I was suspicious of him. Good times.
and don't coach me hapahauli please lol i've been here a while i don't need it
So because he lurked he's the scummiest player in the thread? So have a lot of other people. A lot of them are probably blues or ninjas.
Again, whether Milton is town or mafia, this is horrendously suspicious.
DrH made a sudden shift in suspicions for no rationale. In fact, his own analysis suggests that he should still find Milton suspicious. After I pointed out this contradiction, he was reluctant to give a definitive read on Milton and responded by attacking my play as opposed to clarifying his stance on Milton.
I want some answers from DrH
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On September 06 2012 10:13 slOosh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 10:08 DoYouHas wrote:
@slOosh - IIRC getting into back and forths with you has ended up in my being lynched as townie twice. I dropped out of our discussion after I had my read on you. I know what it will take to change that read, and it doesn't involve me interacting with you. I do think it is kind of amusing that you have tried prying at me because you know what my meta is better than anyone else in this game, while I haven't bothered dealing with you because I know yours better than almost anyone. If anything this strengthens my case. Either you think me scum or town. I infer from the posts in thread that you think I'm town. If indeed you think this, then you should be concerned that I think you are scum. There is a blaring contradiction in your words and your actions. Now will you actually address my posts?
I did think you were town early on in the game and I liked your post when you voted for Mattchew, hence why I cited it. I am much less sure currently. Your inactivity for one thing (yes I get that I'm in a glass house on this one) has me doubting as last game you played an extremely lurky and lazy scum. It could very well be that your initial activity was an overcompensation for that and now you have fallen back into that scum meta. I don't know, but I'm willing to wait it out and make that call when I have more to look at. As I said in your quoted post, I know what I'm looking for, and no, you don't get to know what that is.
And just looking at our past, you honestly think that directly defending myself against you is the correct path? Defending myself does nothing to get you off my back, in fact, it has gotten me lynched twice as a townie (needed restating). What does actually get you off my back? Making cases and contributing.
I suppose this question does deserve answering though:On September 04 2012 08:41 slOosh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 08:36 DoYouHas wrote:On September 04 2012 08:23 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 08:22 DoYouHas wrote:
slOosh, my vote is neither stupid nor a throwaway. I have a friend who I consider a better player than me who has told me that getting BM out of the game quickly is always a good thing. It is meta as hell but it isn't stupid.
Toad's aggression towards you is completely null. You seem to be playing into your town meta so far, but I really won't know for sure until your first/second case. Your comment on Toad's aggression doesn't really mean much since he explained himself. What is my town meta and how am I playing to it? Your town meta from when I have played with you is to herd the rest of the town. Pointing out information (like with the 2kp thing) and taking issue with not just the content of posts but the style. You try to make the town play how YOU want them to play. The rest of your meta doesn't really come into play until cases start being made. I am making note that you just used me to defend yourself though, which I do not like. And Toad's aggression isn't null because he explained it. It is null because it is. Either alignment has plenty of cause to go after you like Toad did. Scum could want to start the mudslinging early and look aggressive and confident. Town may have just not liked what you wrote. Where did I do that?
On September 04 2012 08:23 slOosh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 08:22 DoYouHas wrote:
slOosh, my vote is neither stupid nor a throwaway. I have a friend who I consider a better player than me who has told me that getting BM out of the game quickly is always a good thing. It is meta as hell but it isn't stupid.
Toad's aggression towards you is completely null. You seem to be playing into your town meta so far, but I really won't know for sure until your first/second case. Your comment on Toad's aggression doesn't really mean much since he explained himself. What is my town meta and how am I playing to it?
"What is my town meta and how am I playing to it?" = "DYH, please elaborate to the rest of the thread just how townie I am."
Otto is the clear choice for the town's next action, whether that be vig or lynch. I'm trying to work on the next step.
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Ofc I don't give a shit about this game anymore when everyone ignores logic, even you failed to answer my question about why the scum would claim.
@Darth I already answered it. It is stupid. You almost uniquely amongst the player realize my motivation but then
On September 06 2012 09:34 DarthPunk wrote:
Yet his behaviour is at stark and direct opposition with his stated intention. He has absolutely crapped up the thread and actively limited discussion and scum hunting throughout day one. When I went to sleep yesterday the main topic of conversation were several people repeating themselves Ad nauseum and the direct consequence of this is that other topics of conversation have been drowned out in the noise. Now people may look at Ox and say that he is just a bad player or whatever, but when someone's stated motivations are in direct contradiction to his behaviour I see scum.
His defense of mattchew was incredibly wishy-washy in that he never explicitly states that he believes him to be town. He talks in probabilities and shifts the burden of proof onto others by asking 'why is it more likely for scum to do this than town?' whilst ignoring all rational explanations for the current situation.
He has been incredibly effective in making discussion of anything other than mattchew impossible whilst stating that this is what he wants to avoid.
TLDR; Ox's behaviour is in direct contradiction with his stated motivations. He has crapped all over the thread in order to make any conversation but the one that was already resolved incredibly difficult. Kid is Scum.
This. You fail to see that my behaviour made scum slip, made everyone talk more about why did they vote on Matt. Its exactly what my motivation was. I haven't been called kid in a while, it is offensive since you are the one incapable of understanding the most basic logic.
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On September 06 2012 10:39 Gravan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 10:31 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On September 06 2012 10:26 Gravan wrote:On September 06 2012 10:18 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 06 2012 10:16 Gravan wrote:I think Bill Murray is scum. Also, Hapahauli, what is your read on Gravan? Scum or town? I don't want you using the word Null. Pick one. Scum or town? Consider yourself having a Gun to your head. This is the first time he mentions me. At this point, he hasn't put forward any kind of read on me at all. In addition, many of his posts up until this point (not to mention quite a few afterward) are pointless one-liners, or just generally non-contributing. The next thing he does is tell austin to read my filter as if I was scum (again, not argument put forward on his part - he is talking as if me being scum is a forgone conclusion). + Show Spoiler +On September 06 2012 07:18 austinmcc wrote:
Show nested quote +
Looking through his profile, I see his only other game was LIII. So he's at least played, although not with me. But he knows that some of the people in this game played that game, he played with them, he knows they are competent individuals with functioning brains.
It's the first time I've ever seen someone cling to something absolutely wrong in this manner. I have posted paranoid rants in two games, stuck by them for a while as possibilities, gotten upset if people wouldn't consider them as possibilities, but I didn't get like this.
Right now (and if Matt flips scum I will be more certain of the read) I can't help but read the whole thing like this:
Matt got caught
Ottoxlol tried to save him, without realizing how bad an idea it was
Ottoxlol shortly realized how bad an idea it was
A decent scum player told him right after he got caught looking very odd that he couldn't back off his defense, because then he'd look even scummier
So he went full bore nuts, and that's why he won't listen to anyone or anything
It doesn't feel like he's just obtuse. At some point he'd get the message. It feels like he's clinging to this.
Do me a favor, and go read Gravan's filter as if he were a scum idiot Then he goes on to say that hap is on his scumlist for "coaching" me. + Show Spoiler +On September 06 2012 07:23 Hapahauli wrote:
Show nested quote +
Null. Deal with it.
His posts/logic right now could come from either mafia or bad-townie. I don't have enough information to make a decision since hasn't posted much. Fortunately we have 48 hours to make a read on him.
yeah youre on my scum list
so is gravan
you openly coached him Afterwards, he includes doyouhas in this list. + Show Spoiler +filter
On September 06 2012 07:27 imallinson wrote:
Show nested quote +
I'd say Gravan looks real scummy right now. He attempted the same thing as Ottox, defending Matt by saying he was probably an assassin, but much more quietly and backed away as soon as he realised it was a bad idea. If anything that looks more scummy than Ottox at the moment.
THANK YOU.
Go read Gravan's filter, and tell me if you don't find hapa coaching him?
2nd person I've caught him coaching that looks like scum with him (Doyouhas is the other) His next two posts that mention me go on to mention (offhandedly) the apparently obvious need to have me shot by a vig. Further, if you read his filter he is very non-comittal on the otto-defending-matt-and-generally-acting-scummy issue. His posts are passively worded and just softly agree with the flow of the thread at the time. This is the worst case I've ever seen. Typically, when one argues against another, a counter-argument has to be presented. Since it appears as though I am on some people's chopping blocks, some discussion could be useful. Just denouncing my case gets town no-where. You chose a poor person to analyze. Bm is like chezinu and incredibly hard to pin down normally. You typically have to rely on things like scumslips to catch either of them or take look at the overall effort they put into a game. Now given that. You're analysis is very lacking, and looks like cherry picking. You don't include examples or even a link to his filter to prove your case. It seems rushed and made by someone backed into a corner. If you are town you should have no reason to feel rushed, you have plenty of time to post your thoughts. First off, while I understand a player's meta is something to consider, I really have no idea what you are talking about with respect to how Bill plays or whoever this chezinu is. I included at least three examples. See those quotes/spoilers? All of them include quotes from Bill Murray. As to being rushed, well, I am just trying to not lurk. Apparently that is a bad thing to do - working on putting my thoughts out there and trying to stimulate discussion.
Then actually hit the quote button on BM's posts. I should never have to enter a players filter to actually verify every post used as a reason against them when they are "quoted" in analysis.
Any player who has played for years on this site (myself, drh, bm,) in this case for this game a giant amount of games for players to look at and compare our playstyles/meta's/trend our meta is changing.
Not looking into this when making a case IMO looks badly on you as the person making the analysis. Knowing the players you are playing against if they are active and have a good set of history to compare to should be something everyone takes into consideration in cases. If someone has very few games behind them then yes, only gauging one game is fine given people change a f ton early on into their mafia career.
Ignorance is not a defense imo.
Making a quality post even if you only make like 4-5 a cycle isn't lurking if they are insanely solid posts. Its ones like your analysis that seem rushed to have an air of contribution that look bad.
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On September 06 2012 10:41 DoYouHas wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 10:13 slOosh wrote:On September 06 2012 10:08 DoYouHas wrote:
@slOosh - IIRC getting into back and forths with you has ended up in my being lynched as townie twice. I dropped out of our discussion after I had my read on you. I know what it will take to change that read, and it doesn't involve me interacting with you. I do think it is kind of amusing that you have tried prying at me because you know what my meta is better than anyone else in this game, while I haven't bothered dealing with you because I know yours better than almost anyone. If anything this strengthens my case. Either you think me scum or town. I infer from the posts in thread that you think I'm town. If indeed you think this, then you should be concerned that I think you are scum. There is a blaring contradiction in your words and your actions. Now will you actually address my posts? I did think you were town early on in the game and I liked your post when you voted for Mattchew, hence why I cited it. I am much less sure currently. Your inactivity for one thing (yes I get that I'm in a glass house on this one) has me doubting as last game you played an extremely lurky and lazy scum. It could very well be that your initial activity was an overcompensation for that and now you have fallen back into that scum meta. I don't know, but I'm willing to wait it out and make that call when I have more to look at. As I said in your quoted post, I know what I'm looking for, and no, you don't get to know what that is. And just looking at our past, you honestly think that directly defending myself against you is the correct path? Defending myself does nothing to get you off my back, in fact, it has gotten me lynched twice as a townie (needed restating). What does actually get you off my back? Making cases and contributing. I suppose this question does deserve answering though: Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 08:41 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 08:36 DoYouHas wrote:On September 04 2012 08:23 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 08:22 DoYouHas wrote:
slOosh, my vote is neither stupid nor a throwaway. I have a friend who I consider a better player than me who has told me that getting BM out of the game quickly is always a good thing. It is meta as hell but it isn't stupid.
Toad's aggression towards you is completely null. You seem to be playing into your town meta so far, but I really won't know for sure until your first/second case. Your comment on Toad's aggression doesn't really mean much since he explained himself. What is my town meta and how am I playing to it? Your town meta from when I have played with you is to herd the rest of the town. Pointing out information (like with the 2kp thing) and taking issue with not just the content of posts but the style. You try to make the town play how YOU want them to play. The rest of your meta doesn't really come into play until cases start being made. I am making note that you just used me to defend yourself though, which I do not like. And Toad's aggression isn't null because he explained it. It is null because it is. Either alignment has plenty of cause to go after you like Toad did. Scum could want to start the mudslinging early and look aggressive and confident. Town may have just not liked what you wrote. Where did I do that? Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 08:23 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 08:22 DoYouHas wrote:
slOosh, my vote is neither stupid nor a throwaway. I have a friend who I consider a better player than me who has told me that getting BM out of the game quickly is always a good thing. It is meta as hell but it isn't stupid.
Toad's aggression towards you is completely null. You seem to be playing into your town meta so far, but I really won't know for sure until your first/second case. Your comment on Toad's aggression doesn't really mean much since he explained himself. What is my town meta and how am I playing to it? "What is my town meta and how am I playing to it?" = "DYH, please elaborate to the rest of the thread just how townie I am."
Otto is the clear choice for the town's next action, whether that be vig or lynch. I'm trying to work on the next step.
Ahh ... Ok I understand now. Hah the irony ... this is indeed what I did to you in SMVII(?) - get paranoid, lurk and then call you out. The question I asked on the meta was because I thought you could be bluffing with the town read. Alright gonna go clear my mind and reread your filter.
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EPT
