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On October 26 2013 00:02 Foxxan wrote:Here is a new suggestion, i hope you write stuff down somewhere if u find any interest in them kabel. Shield battery for protoss. Make it much smaller, like really small. 50% of a cannon atleast, maybe even smaller than that. To give more synergy with dragoons/archon since they are so big for defence. Remove the stun when it heals shield on a unit. <- Maybe even not necessarily Reduce cost, total hp, and totalmana by 50%, still give 2shield every mana. Show nested quote +Won't you just die to Hydra pushes if you dont get an early forge?
Assuming we gave nexus Hallucination, would you be able to go 1 gate expand into nexus upgrade into Hallucination scout and have time to react to counter the push? Protoss can open 1gate nexus here in this engine cuz toss can wall against lings here much easier. Not 100% tested if its viable but i think it is Hallucination on nexus, yes probably could work. See no reason not to. Also if zerg opens heavy hydrabust, i think he gets behind against good toss(?) Dunno. There are some tactics that could work here in starbow with tweaks that didnt work in bw. Right now, i think toss needs cannons against hydrapush sooner or later. But if toss goes FFE he needs to add like 6cannons. If he opens different i think he dont need as much cannons
But from the time we tested with the Stalker (which was more cost effective vs hydras than Dragoons), I simply couldn't produce enough Stalkers to match your Hydra production. Part of this was ofc due to lack of scouting information. Like if I invested any ressources into tech, I would just die to specific timing attack. But I think it will be even more difficult to execute that build with Dragoon and it simply seems so much safer (and easier) to just go forge-first and tech behind it.
Btw, I am talking about an early 2-base Hydra push here. Vs a later hydra push here. With hallucination ofc., I guess the idea is that you shuld be able to scout the hydra den and then get up a forge and throw down cannons (because I don't think you can match the zerg in unit production with Dragoons and slowzealots). But I am not sure whether you can do this in time.
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On October 25 2013 23:30 Foxxan wrote:There are stuff that can be changed without breaking stuff Like buffing archon so he is better against mutas Show nested quote +wow, big discussion. No way we can speed up slow-zealots without messing with PvZ early game. Zerg are already having a very hard time holding off 2 gate because of chrono A very hard time? Because you died, and the matches you observed, the zerg died? Not enough for that statement. When i played solid he didnt die. Dont know the argument here anyway. Queen inject is buffed to. They equal in macro. Why would protoss suddenly get it easy here?
Archons are decent vs mutalisk,but it's the corsair that is suppose to counter them. I don't see why they should be buffed. It's the same as in BW. Good muta micro > Archons.
I am not whining about zealots just because of our games. December pointed out that it seems that zealots do better vs lings in Starbow than in BW. We saw 4 lings perfectly surround a zealot and the zealot still won. We are not sure why but it might have something to do with the meele "dodge" (if you move as you are being attacked by a meele unit then it does not hit even if it has the attack animation, in other words, it misses...). This might favor zealots somehow. Not really sure why.
Also, early chrono > Queens because even if you chrono out zealots and not workers, zerg still has to spend most , if not all larva on def / lings which means that toss can make more workers than zerg if zerg has a too hard time defending zealot pushes.
In general, however, zerg should stay on 2 base vs a gateway opening (it seems from some testing and observation) and be better at walling off the natural to defend vs various zealot push timings
I am not suggesting a nerf to toss at all but I feel we are walking on a razor's edge in PvZ early game atm and giving one of the races any more advantage (like zealot speed) might tip the scale.
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Also, early chrono > Queens because even if you chrono out zealots and not workers, zerg still has to spend most , if not all larva on def / lings which means that toss can make more workers than zerg if zerg has a too hard time defending zealot pushes.
You need to Invest 100 mins + 40 second of nexus not producing probes to get out zealots faster.
That will delay your gateway production way way too much. Queen on the other hand is a free lunch early game vs zerg. You may have a point regarding zealot vs lings, but in terms of macromechanics, it is a clear disadvantage for the protoss player when assessing the strenght of the 2-gate opening.
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@hider
If protoss decides to go delayed nexus, the techpath he choose is citadel/templars over dragoons.
He dont make any dragoons at all, he rush storm/archon in general.
In some oldschool strats, protoss went very fast templar tech with fast storms and just a few cannons to be safe.
Problem now is he have no scouting information if we talk bw. And he needs to go cannons main, and natural nexus and be ready with archon of potential mutas, and still mutas run freely here, can maybe snipe templars.
Its a nightmare, thats for sure
When we made stalkers, were they medium or armored? I think they were armored?
They have 40less health. Did 16damage over dragoons 15.
@xiphias
Archons are decent vs mutalisk,but it's the corsair that is suppose to counter them
Yes i know. And they do counter them but the problem here for me is it makes corsair always mandatory against zerg
Archon cant counter mutas, cuz mutas can avoid them very easy
zealots do better vs lings in Starbow than in BW
In my amove test, zealot lose versus 4lings quite hard.
Your point of lings, sure. I call that a bug
Also, early chrono > Queens because even if you chrono out zealots and not workers, zerg still has to spend most , if not all larva on def / lings
No. Zerg dont have to go full defence at all here.
If protoss go heavy zealots, his tech is really delayed.
If he goes a few zealots behind his 2gate. Zerg gets mapcontrol fully.
Your overlords, have free information over toss while he have none on zerg.
Zerg gets two early queens for defend. He can root sunkens.
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Ok, let me try and explain my new robo unit.
Biospell:
It gives enemy a debuff, which makes them take increased damage
light 6
medium 8
armored 10
Doesnt make spells do more damage
Lets talk pvt first: Protoss wanna open range goons with realtively fast robotic to get observer out to scout and against potential spidermines. So when he sees terran go bio he adds this new unit, and now goons will do 16damage to light(still need to micro so he shoots against the debuffed units).
What this unit do is makesprotoss not have to relie on kite with goons all day and tech asap to reaver, infact i think toss can fight here. Skipping reaver is maybe viable and instead tech templar road
Note that zealot do two hits, so he gets double effect from this(maybe its op)=12 extra damage.
So for the argument, lets assume he dont get double effect. He now do 44damage to marines(to bad marines dont have 40hp). Since firebats are armored with bigger health, target that unit down with dragoons and move in with zealots is a potential play.
Versus zerg:
So protoss goes 1gate nexus with zealot harass/Pokes. Deponds how he reads the games.
he can now add dragoons here with range, and a fast robotic if he wants to.
Robotech gives him:
- scout
- More mobile fighting power, and better airdefence for dragoons
The new unit is good overall here.
Zealot 2shot lings
archon 1shot lings
goon 3shot lings
zealot 4shot hydras instead of 5
goon 4shot hydras instead of 6
If they hit the debuffed units ofcourse. A good protoss wanna choose manually where to hit his debuff, still fine to let ai do it.
So protoss wanna encourage his units to hit the debuffed units, and the opponent can micro them behind a bit.
The mechanical spell i mentioned before is potentially easy to get right imo.
Just nerf his bounce a bit and i think its fine actually if terran just spreads his tanks a bit more in general
Micro for and against here. With this new unit added iam thinking ->
A nerf to reaver overall would be quite nice in my book. 6range, 40total damage. Reduce his cost a bit only, increase supply by 2
An added marauder-> worse than goon unstimmed, and better with stim(good vs armored unit)
An added roach->better tank against zealots/marines than hydras. Can move at places hydra cant. Potential sniper and harass unit with low range(so less critical, more vulnerable to stuff). And still fits the swarm theme
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Thats it for today guys, thanks for turning in
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On October 26 2013 00:12 Xiphias wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2013 23:30 Foxxan wrote:There are stuff that can be changed without breaking stuff Like buffing archon so he is better against mutas wow, big discussion. No way we can speed up slow-zealots without messing with PvZ early game. Zerg are already having a very hard time holding off 2 gate because of chrono A very hard time? Because you died, and the matches you observed, the zerg died? Not enough for that statement. When i played solid he didnt die. Dont know the argument here anyway. Queen inject is buffed to. They equal in macro. Why would protoss suddenly get it easy here? Archons are decent vs mutalisk,but it's the corsair that is suppose to counter them. I don't see why they should be buffed. It's the same as in BW. Good muta micro > Archons. I am not whining about zealots just because of our games. December pointed out that it seems that zealots do better vs lings in Starbow than in BW. We saw 4 lings perfectly surround a zealot and the zealot still won. We are not sure why but it might have something to do with the meele "dodge" (if you move as you are being attacked by a meele unit then it does not hit even if it has the attack animation, in other words, it misses...). This might favor zealots somehow. Not really sure why. Also, early chrono > Queens because even if you chrono out zealots and not workers, zerg still has to spend most , if not all larva on def / lings which means that toss can make more workers than zerg if zerg has a too hard time defending zealot pushes. In general, however, zerg should stay on 2 base vs a gateway opening (it seems from some testing and observation) and be better at walling off the natural to defend vs various zealot push timings I am not suggesting a nerf to toss at all but I feel we are walking on a razor's edge in PvZ early game atm and giving one of the races any more advantage (like zealot speed) might tip the scale.
The correct response is to keep toss in the dark, make enough lings to hold of the initial push with ling/queen and get speed. After this you need to deny all information to the toss:
-you can spam some lings and keep your lings in 2 controlgroups, only showing one with few lings, tempting the toss to attack, when he does you can either counter attack with your big group and wreak havoc in his base and make extra lings+couple spines in nat to hold off his push or you can go for a big flank/surround if you outnumber him enough.
-make enough lings at the start of the push and be aggressive with them, drone up behind it. Show the lings to him, make him scared to attack, when he does attack you can simply wall + spines like you did before
-pool hydra's with speed and do a big attack
-...
main point is, it's all about mindgames, be tricky, punish toss a couple times with a counterattack and he wont be so aggressive the next time. have 2 overlords in his base, one at the nat and one in the main to scout for his tech, no tech? -> he's might go for a big push soon, twilight? -> probably delaying his push till he has speed up, stargate? -> transitioning, probably wont do more than poke with zealots at your bases, sniping drones, ...
show the toss what you can do and force him to play safe vs your various strategies (f.e. if he knows you can do a big hydrapush he wont skip a forge next time, etc.), making what he wants to do less strong or more predictable.
hope this helps 
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Another suggestion here:
Zergs overlord creep spread
Was thinking to unlock it on overlord, you need to upgrade it at lairtech.
100/100 70bt
Reason:
1)To not get lucky with your hiding placement out on the map or on the edge of your main. Creepspread from queen do this already but you see where he have creep here.
2) The future roach teleport ability. You wanna use your overlords here with the roaches to get to enemy base or something. With an upgrade here, enemy have some more time to prepare for this.
3) If zerg wanna use his sunkens lets say on the third base or fourth. He will need to upgrade here.
What this do is in my eyes, give more decision from zerg.
Easier to prepare for enemy.
Removes luck with not finding a building with scan or something else.
Was also thinking of giving the creep from overlord more radius with this change and more "instant".
Purpose of this is the future roach, zerg dont need 5overlords to cover ground for his roaches, and if he wanna plant his sunkens he can do that on 1 or 2overlords(if he have many sunkens)
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anyone wanna play starbow?
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Me and solid are gonna play in 1-2 hours
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/DVGHhTJ.png)
SC2BW with starbow triggers (without the turn before moving though), just the mining triggers.
1/0.63/0.37
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Thats cool.
Starbow:
1/0.5/0.33 (?)
Could you check it lalush?
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I sought out to get rid of turn before moving flag.
I succeeded.
# workers per patch income per minute
Old Sbow //// My values //// BW
8 //// 544 //// 544 //// 543
12 ///// 677 //// 706 //// 710
16 ///// 896 //// 872 //// 811
20 //// 987 //// 968 //// 955
24 //// 1019 //// 1002 //// 1136
So might've been a slight improvement over the old values, but because every test we do is subject to chance, it is hard to say for sure.
The main benefit is having workers that are able to stay alive as a scout.
The difference between SC2BW and SBOW income. SC2BW has higher max saturation but overly high 2 workers per patch.
I've got pretty accurate 2 per patch, but the max saturation is a little too low.
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Very good job Dec. I'm sure we all will be pleased to have less retarded workers to scout with.
On the other hand, I wish it were possible, somehow to have a lower 16 worker count (closer to 800 min) without hurting the max saturation per base. (So far, both me and Dec find this very difficult)
Right now the eco rewards fewer bases a tad more than BW did when you have fewer workers, which may have unintended consequences for gameplay (in a negative sense), but the Sbow meta is still developing very much so it's hard to tell.
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good work!
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State of the Starbow
Just gonna update you about whats going on "behind the curtains" .. I have been quite busy the last weeks and have not updated Sbow for a while now. (Apart from the macro mechanics I added to the test maps.)
Here is an overview of the content in the game:
(For those who only follow the thread and are not actively playing/observing)
>>>+ Show Spoiler +<<<
Yea ok. What about it?
>>>+ Show Spoiler +I refer to this as the core stuff. This will very unlikely be removed or heavily reworked. (But ofc some minor adjustements might need to be made.) Keep in mind that almost everything from BW has BW-stats. There are some unfinished abilities, upgrades and annoying bugs left to take care off. Also some balance concerns.
Bugs left to fix:
>>>+ Show Spoiler + - Spider mines
- All attacks deal full dmg vs shields
- Carrier BW micro
- Null ward
- Hallucination at HT. (Might need to be replaced due to the cruel bugs)
- Improve micro of some units & spells.
- Many minor bugs
- Lots of aesthetic improvements.
And what about the future?
>>>+ Show Spoiler +As you can see, the game has a quite solid BW foundation, but with some new stuff. I aim to fix the content we have in the game, and do as much work as I can to solve bugs and other problems. Ok. But is the game complete now or what?I will make one last large design patch for a test map with some additional new content. I still think this game feels too much like BW. SC1 lead to BW which now shall lead to Sbow.  I want something more. Something to explore. Something that allows players to be creative and innovative. Room for more diverse playstyles and "bigger" meta game, compared from the already super explored BW-meta game.
"Ok.. but Kabel, you have fooled around for a long time already!"My "method" has been to fit new units into the game by tweaking already existing stuff. One tweak to a basic unit requires another tweak to the next unit, and the next unit and the next unit to maintain balance... Which has lead to the game feeling messy and strange. Now it is much more stable due to the BW balance as a base. I will switch focus. If something new is added to Sbow, it must be unique enough that it does not require any rebalance of existing units to fit into the game.Look at the Sentinel. A completely new unit. It seems to fit into Sbow, despite it is not 100% complete yet. Now it is possible for Stargate openings in PvP and TvP, and the game does not seem broken from it. No other unit has been rebalanced or reworked to make room for the Sentinel. So here is the deal - I make one last large design patch. (As I did in the summer, if anyone remember. The one that brought you back, Solid.. ) That patch will only be added to a test map. We try it, play it and evaluate it. If it feels good, it might become the "real" Sbow. If it does not feel good, well, then I will let Sbow be as it is now. (Except some bug and balance improvements.) Some criteria: - New units must fit into the game without existing units needs to be heavily reworked or rebalanced. - Each new unit must be meaningful, fun, add something to the gameplay and feel like Starcraft. If no such things are found, then so be it. I will not force anything into the test map just for the sake of it. I will merely look at angles where there might be room for something more. (And I have a couple of things in mind already .. he he he he..) >>> + Show Spoiler +<<<
Over and out.
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ok good!
macro mechanics don't seem broken so far, tough to say if they are balanced or not.
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anyone online right now? play 1v1 starbow?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/FBdavrw.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hWJ6P7m.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/kkrKk7c.jpg)
