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On May 08 2013 06:10 Influ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 05:43 Defacer wrote:
I'm still astounded by how immature this community is.
There are seriously people that think that only 'the best' players and teams that should be rewarded with financial security. Or that building a marketable, sustainable brand is somehow 'easy?'
You do realize that in a world where only 'champions' made money, only 20-30 players — IN THE WORLD — would be able to play and live off their SC2, don't you?
Grow up, guys.
Who cares if it's easy to build a marketable, sustainable brand? If I want to follow a company which is able to offer their employees a good living than I would stay at my office 24/7 and definitively not follow an esports team.
What, so you want a team with players that under paid and overworked as long as they put up results? Are you ok if they are poorly treated as long as they provide you with entertaining games?
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On May 08 2013 06:13 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 06:10 Influ wrote:On May 08 2013 05:43 Defacer wrote:
I'm still astounded by how immature this community is.
There are seriously people that think that only 'the best' players and teams that should be rewarded with financial security. Or that building a marketable, sustainable brand is somehow 'easy?'
You do realize that in a world where only 'champions' made money, only 20-30 players — IN THE WORLD — would be able to play and live off their SC2, don't you?
Grow up, guys.
Who cares if it's easy to build a marketable, sustainable brand? If I want to follow a company which is able to offer their employees a good living than I would stay at my office 24/7 and definitively not follow an esports team. What, so you want a team with players that under paid and overworked as long as they put up results? Are you ok if they are poorly treated as long as they provide you with entertaining games?
Putting up results should be the foundation for everything that is leading to success. I am absolutly ok with people being treated poorly when they cant put up results in their job. It's their job after all. When they put up results and they are still treated poorly either the management is shit or the whole business model is flawed. Thats not the reason I condemn an organisation like EG.
The fact that they don't put up results AND have success by abusing a competitive platform to promote their entertaining "personalities" is just a slap in the face of the organsations who focused on their core competences ( is that a english term? in german it is!) and provided us with the entertainment we all enjoy from the get go.
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On May 08 2013 05:30 Influ wrote:
Call me a naiv romantic socialist and that's probably what I am but to me EG is the proof that attention whoring shameless capitalists are able to exhaust esports even more than it is possible in conventional sports without having competitive success at all. After quiet some time this made me lose a lot interest in the competitive SC2 scene as a whole..
attention whoring shameless capitalists
I don't think you understand how the scene works (or basic business and economics for that matter).
So a lot of revenue comes in (not all, but a good deal) by companies who sponsor teams, tournaments, players, etc. The companies sponsoring treat the money they inject into the scene as marketing / advertising expenses. In return, the teams, tournaments, players, etc. promote the sponsoring company and its products.
If the company feels that they aren't being promoted enough, they won't sponsor as much, or stop sponsoring altogether. Which is bad for the scene. EG makes its sponsors happy, which allows EG to have more sponsorships, which allows EG to pay its players better, run tournaments (EG Masters Cup being an example), and create content for the community. This is generally seen as good.
Results are important. But so is financial sustainability. Both are critically important
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I wonder what the EG team (both players and management) think about the OP and about the fact that the thread popped up.
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On May 08 2013 01:19 Mortal wrote:Don't think I need read further than the first line. Show nested quote +EG has the right idea when it comes to the atmosphere of a professional team. In one sense, you're correct. However, in the context of the fact that they're trying to compete in this game, you're 100% wrong. EG had favored content production and selling their players/themselves as a brand. If you're looking to generate income based upon sponsorships and such, this is a fine model. But what would someone say if the Yankees were losing every game, but still had a sick roster and sponsors? They'd probably say it didn't add up. I say "had favored" because as we know, EG moves now to San Fransisco to -allegedly- focus themselves more on practice and raising the skill of their players. Unfortunately, I expect similar results to that which the Lair in AZ produced, which was none at all in the scheme of things. I wish EG the best and I truly hope this SF move refocuses their players and resources to push their results forward; but as of now, they're a marketable brand, not a championship team. Also, this thread is going to be terrible and turn into a shit-flinging contest. Don't expect it to stick around for too long.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
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What blows my mind is that EG and their model has been around in SC2 for quite a while now. They are clearly showing everyone else how it's done, and yet none are following their model! I don't understand!
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On May 08 2013 06:35 Influ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 06:13 Plansix wrote:On May 08 2013 06:10 Influ wrote:On May 08 2013 05:43 Defacer wrote:
I'm still astounded by how immature this community is.
There are seriously people that think that only 'the best' players and teams that should be rewarded with financial security. Or that building a marketable, sustainable brand is somehow 'easy?'
You do realize that in a world where only 'champions' made money, only 20-30 players — IN THE WORLD — would be able to play and live off their SC2, don't you?
Grow up, guys.
Who cares if it's easy to build a marketable, sustainable brand? If I want to follow a company which is able to offer their employees a good living than I would stay at my office 24/7 and definitively not follow an esports team. What, so you want a team with players that under paid and overworked as long as they put up results? Are you ok if they are poorly treated as long as they provide you with entertaining games? Putting up results should be the foundation for everything that is leading to success. I am absolutly ok with people being treated poorly when they cant put up results in their job. It's their job after all. When they put up results and they are still treated poorly either the management is shit or the whole business model is flawed. Thats not the reason I condemn an organisation like EG. The fact that they don't put up results AND have success by abusing a competitive platform to promote their entertaining "personalities" is just a slap in the face of the organsations who focused on their core competences ( is that a english term? in german it is!) and provided us with the entertainment we all enjoy from the get go.
talk to your fellow viewers then. because they dont reward results, either for players or teams. code S koreans can stream and get less than 500 viewers. the community forgets about a big tournament win as soon as the next big tournament happens.
a business' purpose is to make money. winning is at best tangentially related to making money in this industry, solely because of what you and the rest of the community chooses to watch. and any company who tries to lead the charge in the direction you're asking for is gonna go out of business. we arent "abusing a competitive platform" we work in an entertainment industry and you guys are entertained by pandering, not competition.
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Also,
This fallacy that EG only cares about money and not winning is utter fucking bullshit.
Are they winning every tournament? No. But you don't start a team house, pay top dollar for the best players available, or hire a top Korean coach because you don't care about winning.
If all they cared about were stream numbers, they would have 'players' like Destiny or Day9 on EG. They would have a team composed entirely out of broadcast personalities.
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On May 08 2013 07:31 Defacer wrote:
Also,
This fallacy that EG only cares about money and not winning is utter fucking bullshit.
Are they winning every tournament? No. But you don't start a team house, pay top dollar for the best players available, or hire a top Korean coach because you don't care about winning.
If all they cared about were stream numbers, they would have 'players' like Destiny or Day9 on EG. They would have a team composed entirely out of broadcast personalities.
I wasn't aware of any AM or EU team that was winning anything in SC2 at the moment. Did I miss something? Naniwa took second place at Dreamhack, but that is about it. Is there another NA or EU team that is putting up better results that EG that I am not aware of? Because if you compare any NA or EU team to Korea, they all suck and don't win anything.
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On May 08 2013 07:31 Defacer wrote:
Also,
This fallacy that EG only cares about money and not winning is utter fucking bullshit.
Are they winning every tournament? No. But you don't start a team house, pay top dollar for the best players available, or hire a top Korean coach because you don't care about winning.
If all they cared about were stream numbers, they would have 'players' like Destiny or Day9 on EG. They would have a team composed entirely out of broadcast personalities.
It's not about if they care about winning or not, it's about whether EG values more the attention the players get over their results.
It's a business, so EG players getting to promote sponsors is always good. I'd like to see more results from every EG player, but that's just me.
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On May 08 2013 07:49 Ratch! wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 07:31 Defacer wrote:
Also,
This fallacy that EG only cares about money and not winning is utter fucking bullshit.
Are they winning every tournament? No. But you don't start a team house, pay top dollar for the best players available, or hire a top Korean coach because you don't care about winning.
If all they cared about were stream numbers, they would have 'players' like Destiny or Day9 on EG. They would have a team composed entirely out of broadcast personalities. It's not about if they care about winning or not, it's about whether EG values more the attention the players get over their results. It's a business, so EG players getting to promote sponsors is always good. I'd like to see more results from every EG player, but that's just me.
If it makes you feel better, I think the players would like to see more results from every player.
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On May 08 2013 07:20 IdrA wrote:
talk to your fellow viewers then. because they dont reward results, either for players or teams. code S koreans can stream and get less than 500 viewers. the community forgets about a big tournament win as soon as the next big tournament happens.
a business' purpose is to make money. winning is at best tangentially related to making money in this industry, solely because of what you and the rest of the community chooses to watch. and any company who tries to lead the charge in the direction you're asking for is gonna go out of business. we arent "abusing a competitive platform" we work in an entertainment industry and you guys are entertained by pandering, not competition.
Idra, in an insight in why he behaves the way he does.
I am sure he is a nice fellow, who is pained and crying inside by his enforced facade for entertainment whenever he streams.
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On May 08 2013 08:11 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 07:20 IdrA wrote:
talk to your fellow viewers then. because they dont reward results, either for players or teams. code S koreans can stream and get less than 500 viewers. the community forgets about a big tournament win as soon as the next big tournament happens.
a business' purpose is to make money. winning is at best tangentially related to making money in this industry, solely because of what you and the rest of the community chooses to watch. and any company who tries to lead the charge in the direction you're asking for is gonna go out of business. we arent "abusing a competitive platform" we work in an entertainment industry and you guys are entertained by pandering, not competition. Idra, in an insight in why he behaves the way he does. I am sure he is a nice fellow, who is pained and crying inside by his enforced facade for entertainment whenever he streams.
nope you're all a bunch of fucks
it just so happens i get paid to treat you like it. it's fucking awesome.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On May 08 2013 07:20 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 06:35 Influ wrote:On May 08 2013 06:13 Plansix wrote:On May 08 2013 06:10 Influ wrote:On May 08 2013 05:43 Defacer wrote:
I'm still astounded by how immature this community is.
There are seriously people that think that only 'the best' players and teams that should be rewarded with financial security. Or that building a marketable, sustainable brand is somehow 'easy?'
You do realize that in a world where only 'champions' made money, only 20-30 players — IN THE WORLD — would be able to play and live off their SC2, don't you?
Grow up, guys.
Who cares if it's easy to build a marketable, sustainable brand? If I want to follow a company which is able to offer their employees a good living than I would stay at my office 24/7 and definitively not follow an esports team. What, so you want a team with players that under paid and overworked as long as they put up results? Are you ok if they are poorly treated as long as they provide you with entertaining games? Putting up results should be the foundation for everything that is leading to success. I am absolutly ok with people being treated poorly when they cant put up results in their job. It's their job after all. When they put up results and they are still treated poorly either the management is shit or the whole business model is flawed. Thats not the reason I condemn an organisation like EG. The fact that they don't put up results AND have success by abusing a competitive platform to promote their entertaining "personalities" is just a slap in the face of the organsations who focused on their core competences ( is that a english term? in german it is!) and provided us with the entertainment we all enjoy from the get go. talk to your fellow viewers then. because they dont reward results, either for players or teams. code S koreans can stream and get less than 500 viewers. the community forgets about a big tournament win as soon as the next big tournament happens. a business' purpose is to make money. winning is at best tangentially related to making money in this industry, solely because of what you and the rest of the community chooses to watch. and any company who tries to lead the charge in the direction you're asking for is gonna go out of business. we arent "abusing a competitive platform" we work in an entertainment industry and you guys are entertained by pandering, not competition.
Ur right streamingwise for adrevenue, but sponsorshipwise its seems different. Ofcourse, there is a sort of symbiotic relationship. If its true that adstreaming is for the player and the sponsorsships are for the team, u could say that the brand as a proteam u sell to the fans, should mix well with the branding of the sponsors : Winning, appereance, communication etc. Seeing the spnsorships and fans that EG has, u must be doing a reasonable job. But be carefull that u dont overextend your image as a team, because it can bite u in the arse in the longrun (if u know what i mean...)
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i have to disagree with the OP quite a bit. Not that EG is doing a fine job beeing marketable, but for them beeing a role model. I think what we as a community should be aiming for, is to attract and fascinate viewership by the level and the beauty of competetive play that is shown, not by attracting characters. I think it is not the right choice to go into the WWF direction but rather in the professional sport direction. Football, american football, tennis, all those game interest a big enough viewership MAINLY by showing good sports and high level competition in a game, that the viewership can connect to. Because the do the same sport/ play the same game on a amateur level.
It is often said, "esports" needs to grow. Well i think we should look forward to it growing in it's own natural pace. What will more viewership net us average viewer in the end? Im already satisfied with with the production level and size of major tournaments.
Professional BW should be our rolemodel i think. The production can be entertaining and funny, you may create personality and rivalry between players but the games should still be about the highest level of play.
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On May 08 2013 08:21 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 08:11 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On May 08 2013 07:20 IdrA wrote:
talk to your fellow viewers then. because they dont reward results, either for players or teams. code S koreans can stream and get less than 500 viewers. the community forgets about a big tournament win as soon as the next big tournament happens.
a business' purpose is to make money. winning is at best tangentially related to making money in this industry, solely because of what you and the rest of the community chooses to watch. and any company who tries to lead the charge in the direction you're asking for is gonna go out of business. we arent "abusing a competitive platform" we work in an entertainment industry and you guys are entertained by pandering, not competition. Idra, in an insight in why he behaves the way he does. I am sure he is a nice fellow, who is pained and crying inside by his enforced facade for entertainment whenever he streams. nope you're all a bunch of fucks it just so happens i get paid to treat you like it. it's fucking awesome.
Man, I was sticking up for EG. I was even nice to you at Pax East. I am both offended and disguste.....who I am kidding. Good luck on your WCS matchs.
He is pretty much right though, people who want to say EG isn't results driven isn't looking at the big picture. Results does not make your team enough money to stay viable. Promotion and sponsorship make your team viable. If EG doubles down on results, they may not make enough stay in business. Being a viable team that can pay its players living wages and getting results is a lot harder than people think.
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On May 08 2013 08:21 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 08:11 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On May 08 2013 07:20 IdrA wrote:
talk to your fellow viewers then. because they dont reward results, either for players or teams. code S koreans can stream and get less than 500 viewers. the community forgets about a big tournament win as soon as the next big tournament happens.
a business' purpose is to make money. winning is at best tangentially related to making money in this industry, solely because of what you and the rest of the community chooses to watch. and any company who tries to lead the charge in the direction you're asking for is gonna go out of business. we arent "abusing a competitive platform" we work in an entertainment industry and you guys are entertained by pandering, not competition. Idra, in an insight in why he behaves the way he does. I am sure he is a nice fellow, who is pained and crying inside by his enforced facade for entertainment whenever he streams. nope you're all a bunch of fucks it just so happens i get paid to treat you like it. it's fucking awesome.
You actually just became my hero and won the thread in this post.
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On May 08 2013 08:37 Cele wrote:
i have to disagree with the OP quite a bit. Not that EG is doing a fine job beeing marketable, but for them beeing a role model. I think what we as a community should be aiming for, is to attract and fascinate viewership by the level and the beauty of competetive play that is shown, not by attracting characters. I think it is not the right choice to go into the WWF direction but rather in the professional sport direction. Football, american football, tennis, all those game interest a big enough viewership MAINLY by showing good sports and high level competition in a game, that the viewership can connect to. Because the do the same sport/ play the same game on a amateur level.
It is often said, "esports" needs to grow. Well i think we should look forward to it growing in it's own natural pace. What will more viewership net us average viewer in the end? Im already satisfied with with the production level and size of major tournaments.
Professional BW should be our rolemodel i think. The production can be entertaining and funny, you may create personality and rivalry between players but the games should still be about the highest level of play.
A big part of the reason pro sports are successful is because the feeling of belonging a spectator has to a team they cheer for. For example, how often do you see someone root for their home team? Overwhelmingly more often than the other side of the fence. I think the format for SC2 to be successful is right in front of us. We just need more teams with the money to make a difference.
People tend to love drama. American movies/realty television are based off of it. I would love to sit back here and agree with you. I just can't say that we're going to attract new audiences based on the competitive aspect of a video game they know nothing about. They need to have a reason to want to learn. Its not going to be because they saw widow mines blow up an entire mineral line, or burrowed banelings destroy a bio army, they have no idea the significance of something like that.
I think with that entertainment aspect it gives the viewers something else to pay attention to. Other than a game they know absolutely nothing about on first glance.
In terms of the ingredients to attract viewers with no experience in SC2 before, Is there any question it would be EG?
I'm no expert. I'm just trying to spark discussion thats all. I find it really interesting to see peoples thoughts.
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It is kinda funny it works. Buy hey, people are dumb fucks for the most part :> EG needs to get that bitcoin code from ESEA, they could probably get people to run it willingly.
EG: "Drink Monster and buy our shit you dumb fucks"
EG fans: "Sure, just cos you so badass <3."
EG: "Hell while you're at it, mine bitcoins for us pls, here's a short promo video and an EG wallpaper / screensaver"
EG fans: "YAY stuff"
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On May 08 2013 08:21 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 08:11 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On May 08 2013 07:20 IdrA wrote:
talk to your fellow viewers then. because they dont reward results, either for players or teams. code S koreans can stream and get less than 500 viewers. the community forgets about a big tournament win as soon as the next big tournament happens.
a business' purpose is to make money. winning is at best tangentially related to making money in this industry, solely because of what you and the rest of the community chooses to watch. and any company who tries to lead the charge in the direction you're asking for is gonna go out of business. we arent "abusing a competitive platform" we work in an entertainment industry and you guys are entertained by pandering, not competition. Idra, in an insight in why he behaves the way he does. I am sure he is a nice fellow, who is pained and crying inside by his enforced facade for entertainment whenever he streams. nope you're all a bunch of fucks it just so happens i get paid to treat you like it. it's fucking awesome.
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
This post is like 1000% accurate on so many levels.
Yes, people who hate EG and are disgusted by their disgusting behavior (disgusted) do not exist in large enough numbers to justify EG to change their model at all.
It sucks for people who hate that EG is abusing the system by making money and not posting results. ... But that's pretty much it. It is the way it is for a reason (idras post nails it).
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EPT
