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In other words, you are only looking out for yourself. Thanks. You should have left out the last paragraph.
Any good player will surely take this early advantage. Hell, a shitty ass Z player has all the tools now to take on a decent P player. PvZ has always been tricky with getting the proper timings and micro.
In SC, Protoss has a few viable builds against Zerg, i.e. two gate push, FE. Normally we see the latter. P players tend to play more conservative/passive as you described, but you continue to miss an important element.
SCOUTING. The Protoss always had limited methods of scouting against Z. Z always had the early advantage. It's up to keeping your initial probe alive and in some cases that doesn't even work, so you have to get a Corsair -__-;;
What does this mean? P players have one less out. We need to see more viable builds and soft counters in SC2 to increase its longevity.
Give me a freaking break man.
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On September 08 2009 05:13 Mastermind wrote:
Why do all these people who played the game for a few days think they know which strategies are viable or overpowered, but the people at Blizzard who's jobs it is to play the game everyday somehow overlooked these huge imbalances?
I'd agree if people were talking about mid/late game imbalances but there isn't even many possibilities in the early game so its immediately pretty obvious if something is overpowered or not.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On September 08 2009 06:42 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2009 05:13 Mastermind wrote:
Why do all these people who played the game for a few days think they know which strategies are viable or overpowered, but the people at Blizzard who's jobs it is to play the game everyday somehow overlooked these huge imbalances? I'd agree if people were talking about mid/late game imbalances but there isn't even many possibilities in the early game so its immediately pretty obvious if something is overpowered or not.
I think it's important to keep in mind, and Hot_bid stressed this part himself several times, that nobody is saying that anything is DEFINITELY imbalanced.
In his experience, it feels very, very strong but he still says he's not sure if it should be nerfed, because he's not sure how late game plays out.
Nobody is saying "this is how it is", it's more like "this is how it appears to be" - until the Beta is out we can't really do better than that.
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On September 08 2009 04:39 Chill wrote:
The OP completely missed the point of the power of the Queen. It's not that you can get an unstoppable rush, it's that you have unlimited flexibility and deception. If he does 2 Gate wallin you just expand, you dont rush with 6 lings.
Chill, maybe I missed getting this written down as clearly as I wanted, but the zerg cannot expand vs a 2-gate build, because if you are spending all those larva on workers/an expand, you're going to get hit by a very strong zealot rush.
The section where I talked about the option of breaking the wall was to show what happens if you try. If you don't try either you reinforce your troops at his ramp, or he kills them easily and comes charging towards your base with 5 zealots, which, if you've expanded will easily kill enough workers/your nat hatch before dieing to your scrambled lings.
Maybe it was just how it felt in this build, but a 1-base zerg felt very mineral starved, it's not like BW where you will automatically get to 300 for a hatch, unable to spend it all off of the first one
The one counter to this build I posted was zerg expanding all over the map, but without creep around their morphing in new hatch, it's easily scouted and killed.
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I want to play sc2 so much xD!
Got a question here:
Does it make any sense to build more than 30 drones for 1 base?
If not,cant the t/p assume a push when zerg is not expanding?
I dont know how viable fast teching to t2/3 on 1 base is, but i guess by the time the push comes out p/t would have taken their nat already.
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I think that ZvT and ZvP will fix itself when the game comes out.
ZvZ, however, will be just like in SC1. Ling/muta no real signs of "macro"
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Sweden33719 Posts
Shiladie, could you give an estimate of how many lings you'd need to protect vs 5 zealots? It doesn't sound like you'd need that many, especially if you have speed (not to mention that if you have speed, you can just run-around and counter his main).
Also, how will protoss knew you expanded if you have lings blocking his scout probe? In SC you aren't gonna get a ling past speedlings, I'm assuming this is still the case since the pathing has improved?
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On September 08 2009 08:43 Shiladie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2009 04:39 Chill wrote:
The OP completely missed the point of the power of the Queen. It's not that you can get an unstoppable rush, it's that you have unlimited flexibility and deception. If he does 2 Gate wallin you just expand, you dont rush with 6 lings. Chill, maybe I missed getting this written down as clearly as I wanted, but the zerg cannot expand vs a 2-gate build, because if you are spending all those larva on workers/an expand, you're going to get hit by a very strong zealot rush. The section where I talked about the option of breaking the wall was to show what happens if you try. If you don't try either you reinforce your troops at his ramp, or he kills them easily and comes charging towards your base with 5 zealots, which, if you've expanded will easily kill enough workers/your nat hatch before dieing to your scrambled lings. Maybe it was just how it felt in this build, but a 1-base zerg felt very mineral starved, it's not like BW where you will automatically get to 300 for a hatch, unable to spend it all off of the first one The one counter to this build I posted was zerg expanding all over the map, but without creep around their morphing in new hatch, it's easily scouted and killed.
The problem here is this:
1. Early couple lings + Q kill his scout
2. Overload is in toss base/at his ramp
3. Some lings in front of his nat to contain + deny other scout
When he moves out, you can focus on military production or build it concurrently while pumping drones because you knwo EXACTLY how many zealots he has. As zerg:
1. You know EXACTLY when he moves out.
2. You know how many zealots he has.
A competent player will EASILY counter this.
I'm not quite sure why you'd do an early pool (10p vs 13). When the pool is up not all of the first 3 larva or any have to go towards lings either. All of the queen's larva don't have to go towards ALL military or ALL drones. The fact that it's variable makes it very difficult for the toss player.
I am not quite getting why you are saying its mineral starved when you can pump extra drones if you need to. The extra 12 larva (that Nevuk calculated from the mainpage thread) by the time the 2nd hatch would be up is MORE than enough to get enough extra drones PLUS military you need to defend a 2gate.
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Calgary25980 Posts
On September 08 2009 09:53 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Shiladie, could you give an estimate of how many lings you'd need to protect vs 5 zealots? It doesn't sound like you'd need that many, especially if you have speed (not to mention that if you have speed, you can just run-around and counter his main).
Also, how will protoss knew you expanded if you have lings blocking his scout probe? In SC you aren't gonna get a ling past speedlings, I'm assuming this is still the case since the pathing has improved?
The ratio is EXACTLY 3:1, just like in brood war. You definitely can expand against 2 gate, since you can support 7 larvae of lings easily.
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On September 08 2009 04:39 Chill wrote:
The OP completely missed the point of the power of the Queen. It's not that you can get an unstoppable rush, it's that you have unlimited flexibility and deception. If he does 2 Gate wallin you just expand, you dont rush with 6 lings.
thats what i was thinking, why the hell would you go forward and attempt to break it if he walls off nice and pretty.
just ling speed deny scouting expand and tech.
Besides this "imbalance" with 1 hatch play
how about mid and late game? how do zergs deal with drops from toss/terran
Or how about Key flying caster units (nomad) i mean its essential that you learn how to clone and use scourge to snipe vessels in BW, or snipe arbs obs ect.
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Calgary25980 Posts
On September 08 2009 10:27 StorrZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2009 04:39 Chill wrote:
The OP completely missed the point of the power of the Queen. It's not that you can get an unstoppable rush, it's that you have unlimited flexibility and deception. If he does 2 Gate wallin you just expand, you dont rush with 6 lings. thats what i was thinking, why the hell would you go forward and attempt to break it if he walls off nice and pretty. just ling speed deny scouting expand and tech. Besides this "imbalance" with 1 hatch play how about mid and late game? how do zergs deal with drops from toss/terran Or how about Key flying caster units (nomad) i mean its essential that you learn how to clone and use scourge to snipe vessels in BW, or snipe arbs obs ect.
Dealing with drops is a lot easier for Z in ZvT because hydras also beat marines way better than in BW. Protoss can do cute Collossus drops that rape Zerg pretty hard, if it gets to that point.
I never got / saw a nomad in all the games I played or watched.
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Zergs are obviously need their uberlisk back. Uberling or imbaling are the only fair builds :D
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On September 08 2009 10:32 n3meSis wrote:
Zergs are obviously need their uberlisk back. Uberling or imbaling are the only fair builds :D
Toss gets thier mothership, Terran gets thier Thor? We deserve our Uberlisk XD
I'm all for balancing the Queen so that Zerg tier 1 units are weak per mineral cost compared to Toss and Terran so they are a much more swarmy race. Mabye put the Queen with only a melee attack that hits air (its really tall <.<) or a shorter ranged attack so it can't stop workers. As for Zerglings denying scouts, if its a real problem than they should just change the way lings track them down.
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On September 08 2009 06:19 FrozenArbiter wrote:
About the maps, I sooooooort of disagree, because some of the most imbalanced PvZ maps of all time (like Bifrost) were not macro maps at all, while some of the most imbalanced in P's favour (like Guillotine or Paradox) were macro maps.
paradox was a money map, not a macro map, there's a difference. it was also quite good, but...it was also more or less an island map... technically it was a duel map(like most of the 2 player blizzard maps)...but in sc with broodwar and corsairs p>z on islands...
Bifrost...I agree that it's not a macro map, but I don't think that's the issue. In this case, it's rather like the paradox map where...the entrance hurts one race. in paradox there was only entrance by sky...but in bifrost there are two entrances. and one of them is very windy. because of that the zerg are able to attack from a lot of different directions...that's what gave them an advantage over the protoss. Yes, it was a micro map, but in this case the entrances were key to zerg's victory.
it was not only an issue at the main base but many expansions were difficult to protect with the many entrances everywhere. and everyone knows zerg surrounding protoss is not good for the protoss. they need a defensive line of some sort going to be able to slay the zerg little by little instead of trying to do it all at once.
as for Guillotine...I think remember that one well enough. but i didn't play on it because i thought it was a really imbalanced map... i admit i didn't watch much games on it, but from what i could tell, because of the huge numbers of walls... the ground units with the highest range had the hugest advantage. so terrans with their siege tanks were the strongest, followed by protoss with their dragoons...and zerg were dead last with their hydralisks.
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On September 08 2009 10:32 n3meSis wrote:
Zergs are obviously need their uberlisk back. Uberling or imbaling are the only fair builds :D
they made uberlisk just to show you that it's possible to create body parts on a unit that need to be destroyed...pretty sure that's what that was about. it's so like you can do stuff like contra or ff7 attack a different target on the same enemy. like, head, arm, other arm, and/or whatever.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Actually Protoss beat terran really badly on that map, although I don't know if the same would happen today...
Protoss favoured maps tend to be kinda boring I think 
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Nice writeup.
I had no idea you got a key for beating karune or whoever...ugg I was so pumped to try (like at last PAX).
I asked a Blizz employee at the kiosk where they were hanging out if they were doing anything like that and he frowned at me and said "phh, NO".
Screw that guy. I was even wearing my WeMade jersey 
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Can't the zerg player attack the gateways and if toss tries to use zealot to kill lings, just surround and pick off the lot.
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On September 08 2009 10:31 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2009 10:27 StorrZerg wrote:On September 08 2009 04:39 Chill wrote:
The OP completely missed the point of the power of the Queen. It's not that you can get an unstoppable rush, it's that you have unlimited flexibility and deception. If he does 2 Gate wallin you just expand, you dont rush with 6 lings. thats what i was thinking, why the hell would you go forward and attempt to break it if he walls off nice and pretty. just ling speed deny scouting expand and tech. Besides this "imbalance" with 1 hatch play how about mid and late game? how do zergs deal with drops from toss/terran Or how about Key flying caster units (nomad) i mean its essential that you learn how to clone and use scourge to snipe vessels in BW, or snipe arbs obs ect. Dealing with drops is a lot easier for Z in ZvT because hydras also beat marines way better than in BW. Protoss can do cute Collossus drops that rape Zerg pretty hard, if it gets to that point. I never got / saw a nomad in all the games I played or watched.
can't toss use the flying pylon to just "recall" their entire army into a zerg main?
also really no one using the nomad? even though i hate vessels it was such a critical unit in tvz and very important tvp vs arbs
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On September 08 2009 12:25 StorrZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2009 10:31 Chill wrote:On September 08 2009 10:27 StorrZerg wrote:On September 08 2009 04:39 Chill wrote:
The OP completely missed the point of the power of the Queen. It's not that you can get an unstoppable rush, it's that you have unlimited flexibility and deception. If he does 2 Gate wallin you just expand, you dont rush with 6 lings. thats what i was thinking, why the hell would you go forward and attempt to break it if he walls off nice and pretty. just ling speed deny scouting expand and tech. Besides this "imbalance" with 1 hatch play how about mid and late game? how do zergs deal with drops from toss/terran Or how about Key flying caster units (nomad) i mean its essential that you learn how to clone and use scourge to snipe vessels in BW, or snipe arbs obs ect. Dealing with drops is a lot easier for Z in ZvT because hydras also beat marines way better than in BW. Protoss can do cute Collossus drops that rape Zerg pretty hard, if it gets to that point. I never got / saw a nomad in all the games I played or watched. can't toss use the flying pylon to just "recall" their entire army into a zerg main? also really no one using the nomad? even though i hate vessels it was such a critical unit in tvz and very important tvp vs arbs
Warp-In only works on units you are making. You cant recall units you have already made.
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EPT
