EPT#Larva
Is something off with the larva today? Seems slow as hell
[A] Starbow - Page 398
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
#Larva Is something off with the larva today? Seems slow as hell | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
@sentinel How about a spell that removes the next shot against him. Shotremover 35energy Target: Himself or allies. Effect: Next shot against him do no damage. Spell effect no use Can work in pvp against reaver, also work versus mechplay, siegetank shots. In PvZ, i dont know really. Everything shoots so fast, against lurkers slightly. Can be used to keep some key units alive. Like reavers. Can work against abduct. Maybe some other spell i cant think of also What you think? Is this something Protoss needs to be able to do? @medic Also for next patch replace their stim with a speedboost? Have it 10sec cooldown, thats how long stim is Stim on Medic is a AI problem, since Medics start to heal each other. The question is: Shall there be a speed boost at all on Medics? Or shall we go exactly as BW with slow Medics? #Larva Is something off with the larva today? Seems slow as hell The larva spawns every 19.5 second. December sent me those values two days ago. He says this is the most accurate spawn rate of Larva, converted into Starbow from BW. (Are you awake, December? If you want to confirm this further) | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Why? Well i have stated alot of things why a change for sentinel would be good Like safeguard is imbalanced? Overall to make him fight mech armee better, in an balanced way. You say u want toss to make other things other than dragoon/zeals. Immo/stalker will not cut it, they will not be able to match terrans macro still With safeguard however, sure might work. So why change sentinel With dragoon in starbow, sentinel can still change pvp for the better and also pvt against mech to be a little more effective against their armee And i said it works against abduct to, i have said manaburn on scout seems to be imbalanced. So this spell might work I have stated all these things before. They dont need this unit. But if we are gonna have him, what role should he play? If he comes from robo, maybe better to make him a flying spellcaster, that supports protoss. Not a mass unit. If he stays in robo, and terran scouts robo. Hard to react cuz every tech he go (stargate or robo) can be a flying attacker. Since stargate also already have the arbiter, it might be decent to put him on robo. Idk, scout is nerfed and without manaburn he is useless. Buti feel the psell is to powerful, make that spell on something more fun? Protoss dont need sentinel. But u want protoss to make some more unit u have said, so a spellcaster like a mini scienvessel, that have three powerful spells so its always a decision for him. Like manaburn, some help to muta/hydra spell. And something against more mech styles. Like three spells Hard to know what u want Right now, protoss do not have anything against viper play. Like what to do vs his abduct? Wouldnt it be fun if protoss could do some cool things against it? Imagine if we make abduct a spell with you see which target he abducts like the reaver shot, now with the spellremover, we have reactionary micro in battle. Scout on manaburn, a crapunit just for counter to viper will not cut it With sentinel available as a decent support, protoss doesnt have to go stargate>corsair everygame. No, i dont think blinkstalkers will help against that at all. Stim on Medic is a AI problem, since Medics start to heal each other. ye i know, but with stim removed they will not immediately start to heal each other Well i would say go with bw value, see how things turn out to see if u can give them speedbost later. With that removed terran will have to be cautious with their medics, and not stim around like fools #Larva Is something off with the larva today? Seems slow as hell yeah, well i went to bw and checked it, it seems to be spot on...i guess... Protoss went ahead in workers to heavy,,, maybe my bo stink thoimbaimba  | ||
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Doominator10
United States515 Posts
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
Stream over. Join EU chat channel Starbow to see whats up. Had an 8 hour stream yesterday too if you wanna check that out. | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + If you wanna see a vod made from the stream just link me to which stream, the game start and end time. edit: @Defiler Setting shaders to NOT ultra fixes the pink model bug. | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
On September 09 2013 09:50 decemberscalm wrote: @Defiler Setting shaders to NOT ultra fixes the pink model bug. HALLELUJAH. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
wzup dec, anything you wanna show iam online on europe if u need anything like master design or something just whisper while there On September 09 2013 03:43 Doominator10 wrote: Ever notice how in both OG, SBow, and vanilla SC2, protoss always seems to be the race that needs the most adjusting, or just doesn't feel "quite" right... hmm. Something to think about Yes, though in starbow its nothing wrong with them. I dont know why they try to change toss here | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
(I can´t sleep ^^ ) As you who follow this thread surely know, I have decided to opt a lot more for the BW balance. We have now basically rebuilt the BW balance. Then on top of that have we incorporated the new features of Starbow. And this seems to be a generally well received concept by you who play and observe this project. The game feels better now than ever before. But there is still one different piece in the basic balance, and this is my last large remaining headache. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/F5Fx3yE.jpg) Why is the classic BW unit divided into two SC2 units? What advantages do we get by having two Protoss core units instead? - More variations in play style, unit compositions and combats - More room for weaknesses and strengths to exploit or benefit from (Since the units are good at different things) - Better PvP - Warp in - Blink The Dragoon in BW was arguably the most well-rounded unit in the game. It was an extremely useful unit in all match-ups. How could you punish a player who went heavy Dragoons in PvP or TvP in BW? In terms of macro decisions, you could barely. But you could punish him with micro, since the Goon was so stupid. In detail, what properties did the Dragoon offer? - Good total life - Fast - Long attack range - High dmg vs armored, good dmg vs medium, bad dmg vs light - Anti air - All of this for the small cost of 125/50 If we look at relationships vs other units, the Goon did the following: >>>+ Show Spoiler + PvZ: Very good dmg vs Lurker, Ultra, Sunken, good damage vs Hydras if supported by Zealots to protect them, could fight vs Mutalisks, but were weak vs Zerglings. PvT: Very good dmg vs Tanks & Goliaths, good enough to fend off Vultures, could destroy all Terran air units. Weak vs stimmed Marines and heavy Siege Tank fire, without Zealots in support. PvP: Very good dmg vs other Dragoons and all Protoss units.  Weak vs speed Zealots.How can we balance the game without this crucial unit? >>>+ Show Spoiler + I actually think it will be very very hard. Look at Z and T. None of their core units are removed. The basic balance is intact. Protoss is the only exception, since we have removed the Dragoon, and are now trying to make the Stalker/Immortal fit instead. And I think this will haunt the game for a long time. I feel like I have two options: 1) Continue to tweak the Immortal & Stalker and hope we finally get something good 2) Or I go more in line with the BW balance. And just let Starbow improve upon it. As with everything else. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1mMtE1t.jpg) This means that we bring back the Dragoon into the game with its BW stats. Decemberscalm blesses it with godly micro potential. This would allow us to truly get the basic balance complete. Then we also keep the Stalker as a more specialized unit. Not just one half of a Dragoon. For example: - Requires Twilight Council - Faster move speed than it currently has - Starts with 6 range - Slightly cheaper than Dragoons (Maybe 100/50) - Maybe modified stats, but strong vs medium & light, not as strong vs armored. - If needed, a second ability. This allows us to play around more with the Stalker, without messing with the basic balance, which we currently do. Dragoon can not be warped in. Stalker can be warped in. To make the Dragoon NOT as extremely versatile as in BW, we let Banshee, Corsair, Sentinel be Light or Medium, just as Mutalisks are. Thus Dragoons deal less dmg to them, and are inferior to Stalkers vs enemy mid game air play. Lets look at the match-ups: PvT: Heavy Dragoon play can be punished by Reapers harass, Vulture run-bys and Banshee play (Since Dragoons move speed have a harder time to keep up) Also good old Marine pushes. PvZ: Stalkers allows P to fight for map control in the mid game, and means that P must not rush for Corsairs/Storm/Archon as in BW. Blink Stalkers also helps to fight vs mass Mutalisks better than Goons do. PvP: Dragoons will surely be standard. But if we manage to get Stalkers balanced properly, they can become a strong harassment alternative, and good vs Zealots. Blink can be important to catch Reavers etc. To sum it up: + Show Spoiler + We continue on our victory march towards BW balance. We bring back the Dragoon instead of Immortal, tweak other units so they can punish heavy Dragoon play. Then let the Stalker become more of a "specialized" unit. I think this will save us a lot of work, rather than trying to get the Immortal /Stalker to fit in the basic BW balance. This is not my idea. People here on the forums have talked a lot about it earlier. We could ofc also just keep the Immortal model and modify it to become a Dragoon by giving it an anti-air attack. But if we will go for BW balance, then I think we should do it 100% ^^ http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955¤tpage=399#7961 What do you think about this approach? Would this help us to finally nail Protoss? | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
On September 09 2013 03:43 Doominator10 wrote: Ever notice how in both OG, SBow, and vanilla SC2, protoss always seems to be the race that needs the most adjusting, or just doesn't feel "quite" right... hmm. Something to think about Yes, though in starbow its nothing wrong with them. I dont know why they try to change toss here What? You are one of the largest critics to Protoss in Starbow, due to the Immortal/Stalker instead of Dragoon. And I understand that critiscm, just because we are messing with the core balance of BW. It is a dangerous area and it is hard to get it right. Just as if we removed the Hydra or something else. This is what has caused a lot of debate the last weeks - how to get the BW balance with Immortal/Stalker instead of the Dragoon. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
Warp ins, blink, force fields, void rays, full of hard counters etc. | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
* Of course, I think we should buff Warp In, but restrict it to Stalkers and DT's only, so it becomes a feature of those particular units rather than a change to the macro of the Protoss race as a whole. How I would do it: Warp Gate transformation is unlocked by Twilight Council. Not a research at the Twilight Council, you just need to have the building. That's it. Stalkers and DT's are the only units available from the Warp Gate menu. Warping in only takes 5 seconds or so. Long cooldown of course, slightly longer than the regular BT of Stalker/DT (whichever is longer) at Gateway. Bring back Khaydarin Amulet upgrade for High Templar energy at Archives. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Thank god, finally. Would this help us to finally nail Protoss? Well, not only help, it was needed. InwithDaGoon Though i dislike blinkplay so very very much. If stalkers gets good to fight certain things now, combined with blink he will become so cost effecient. Also the blink ability if now the stalker gets decent, can neglect dropship harass, and other stuff very hard. @sentinel and other underused units Iam guessing we are getting there soon now. Iam curious what will happen to the sentinel. My suggestions i have written here, a few pages total. Did you like any thing at all? We have the ghost(heavy underused in bw) We have the viper aka queen(underused in bw) - tho the unit is still very very good, but it has a few new and replaced abilities. The scout(heavy underused in bw) Here are some things that cam make protoss react with different units other than the dragoon for example. Like even the sentinel can maybe change pvp for example. Just some fast thought from me, its in the middle of the night man Iam guessing we are getting to the new units and stuff. Please considder thatabilities like blink removes gameplay alot! What? You are one of the largest critics to Protoss in Starbow, due to the Immortal/Stalker instead of Dragoon What i meant was that with starbow the dragoon should be there, but stalker/immortal changed that. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
@Dragoon back Thank god, finally. Would this help us to finally nail Protoss? Well, not only help, it was needed. InwithDaGoon It is not decided yet. But I think that would help us to fill a hole in the BW balance. The easiest way. But to spice things up, I think the Stalker has room in the game too. With the right modifications, I think this gives us potential to keep the BW balance, AND improve upon the meta game. Though i dislike blinkplay so very very much. If stalkers gets good to fight certain things now, combined with blink he will become so cost effecient. Also the blink ability if now the stalker gets decent, can neglect dropship harass, and other stuff very hard. Is Blink Stalkers a problem in PvZ or PvT? From the games I´ve seen the last two weeks, I don´t think this is the case. They are almost even too weak. Depending on how we balance it, I think Blink Stalkers can become ok. @sentinel and other underused units Iam guessing we are getting there soon now. Iam curious what will happen to the sentinel. My suggestions i have written here, a few pages total. Did you like any thing at all? Yea sorry for not responding. I do read everything in the thread, and I have read what you wrote. I will look into the Sentinel soon. Safeguard concerns me a bit, and also where to put the Sentinel: Robo or Stargate? Needs a third spell? I think these, plus the ability to Warp-In* Stalkers for emergency AA, should balance out the lack of AA on the Immortal. In theory yes. But not in real games. And it is not so strange. Protoss has half the anti-air potential from BW. And this is in a game with even more air threats than BW had! How I would do it: Warp Gate transformation is unlocked by Twilight Council. Not a research at the Twilight Council, you just need to have the building. That's it. Stalkers and DT's are the only units available from the Warp Gate menu. Warping in only takes 5 seconds or so. Long cooldown of course, slightly longer than the regular BT of Stalker/DT (whichever is longer) at Gateway. Bring back Khaydarin Amulet upgrade for High Templar energy at Archives. Warp ins in the midgame forces extreme defence for Terran. This is a dilemma we wrestled for weeks. One Reaver drop + 4-5 Warp gates of constant Warp in at the Warp Prism was enough to seal the game. Terran can not afford to let this happen, thus he turtles like crazy. We do have the BW balance now, but I doubt much will be different in this regard. 5 second warp in makes Protoss able to shut down Vulture harassment just like that. Vultures barely have time to plant mines at the feet of the warped in units. T hardly benefits from harassing at all, with neither Vulture or Banshee due to instant Protoss reinforcements. (Besides, we had 5-7 seconds warp in for a long time.) | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
On September 09 2013 11:01 Kabel wrote: Yea sorry for not responding. I do read everything in the thread, and I have read what you wrote. I will look into the Sentinel soon. Safeguard concerns me a bit, and also where to put the Sentinel: Robo or Stargate? Needs a third spell? As I've said before, putting it in the Robo will be good for a number of reasons - there will be a better numerical balance in units produced from each structure, and Protoss will have a different caster in each of their three tech paths. Less overlap between Arbiters and Sentinels. In theory yes. But not in real games. And it is not so strange. Protoss has half the anti-air potential from BW. And this is in a game with even more air threats than BW had! But the main air threat you cited being the problem was Mutalisks, and Dragoons are practically useless against them anyway. Too many Stalkers makes you weak to Lurkers, understandable. Too many Immortals makes you weak to Mutaisks - well, Dragoons won't change that one bit. Still need Corsairs or Storm. Warp ins in the midgame forces extreme defence for Terran. This is a dilemma we wrestled for weeks. One Reaver drop + 4-5 Warp gates of constant Warp in at the Warp Prism was enough to seal the game. Terran can not afford to let this happen, thus he turtles like crazy. 5 second warp in makes Protoss able to shut down Vulture harassment just like that. Vultures do not even have time to plant mines at the feet of the warped in units. T barely benefits from harassing at all. (We had 5 seconds warp in for a long time) But has this been tried with Zealot removed from the Warp Gate, or the weaker Stalker? I will admit I didn't think of the ability for 5 second Warp in Stalkers to shut down Vulture harass though. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Is Blink Stalkers a problem in PvZ or PvT? From the games I´ve seen the last two weeks, I don´t think this is the case. They are almost even too weak. Depending on how we balance it, I think Blink Stalkers can become ok No, they aint. What i mean is, if the stalkers gets improved in combat there is a possibility combined with blink it will ruin things Safeguard concerns me a bit, and also where to put the Sentinel: Robo or Stargate? Needs a third spell? What is so hard right now, is protoss in in a semi mess with immortal/stalker. Its hard to work on sentinel from there. I would say a safeguard replacement/redesign and a third spell is in place. His first spell i kinda like it but maybe something changed on it for the better, still the same principle. Things like this are much easier when the core of the race is set. So we also can try it out in a "realgame". Next game maybe dragoon is replaced by immortal and changes everything. You get my point i hope But the main air threat you cited being the problem was Mutalisks, and Dragoons are practically useless against them anyway. Too many Stalkers makes you weak to Lurkers, understandable. Too many Immortals makes you weak to Mutaisks - well, Dragoons won't change that one bit. Still need Corsairs or Storm. Oh yes, it will change that, and not just one bit. They are not bad against them. Dragoons are okay versus mutas. I cant believe u are saying stuff like this, did u even play pvz in broodwar? At the same time. Dragoons when they fight lurkers need their AA. Because they wanna fend of scourges, help fend off mutas or else the mutas will snipe your templars. If protoss wanna go archon/templar without corsairs, dragoons help alot versus mutas. But the main air threat you cited being the problem was Mutalisks No, they are alot more things than the muta. AA initself is just very good to have. What about terran dropship harass. The new banshee? What about OVERLORD drops, what about new protoss air unit, maybe improved scout even. Carriers, battlecruisers. Guardians. There are tons of stuff man | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
But the main air threat you cited being the problem was Mutalisks, and Dragoons are practically useless against them anyway. Too many Stalkers makes you weak to Lurkers, understandable. Too many Immortals makes you weak to Mutaisks - well, Dragoons won't change that one bit. Still need Corsairs or Storm. There is a gigantic difference in NOT being able to attack air, or do do 10 dmg per shot vs light air units. That is an important aspect of the BW balance which we do not resemble. But has this been tried with Zealot removed from the Warp Gate, or the weaker Stalker? Ah I missed you proposed the Zealot was not warp-inable. Hm.. What i mean is, if the stalkers gets improved in combat there is a possibility combined with blink it will ruin things Yea, we indeed need to be careful. Things like this are much easier when the core of the race is set. Exactly. I want to get the BW balance correct. Then we can modify the new units to fit into the game, like Stalker & Sentinel etc. It is much easier to do when the core of the game is there. Thereby am I willing to give the Dragoon a shot, since it is so crucial for the BW balance. And I think it is very hard to get the proper balance with Immortal & Stalker, as we currently try to do. | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
On September 09 2013 11:15 Kabel wrote: There is a gigantic difference in NOT being able to attack air, or do do 10 dmg per shot vs light. That is an important aspect of the BW balance which we do not resemble. I guess I would argue that there's also a huge difference between the main Protoss Air to Air fighter NOT being able to attack ground, and being able to lift ground units for the rest of them to fire at, thus making Corsairs still useful in more situations than BW and more desirable to get, which also factors into the balance vs Mutalisks. I fear that with Dragoons and Stalkers in the game together, they will be too similar. | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
On September 09 2013 11:12 Foxxan wrote: No, they aint. What i mean is, if the stalkers gets improved in combat there is a possibility combined with blink it will ruin things What is so hard right now, is protoss in in a semi mess with immortal/stalker. Its hard to work on sentinel from there. I would say a safeguard replacement/redesign and a third spell is in place. His first spell i kinda like it but maybe something changed on it for the better, still the same principle. Things like this are much easier when the core of the race is set. So we also can try it out in a "realgame". Next game maybe dragoon is replaced by immortal and changes everything. You get my point i hope Oh yes, it will change that, and not just one bit. They are not bad against them. Dragoons are okay versus mutas. I cant believe u are saying stuff like this, did u even play pvz in broodwar? At the same time. Dragoons when they fight lurkers need their AA. Because they wanna fend of scourges, help fend off mutas or else the mutas will snipe your templars. If protoss wanna go archon/templar without corsairs, dragoons help alot versus mutas. No, they are alot more things than the muta. AA initself is just very good to have. What about terran dropship harass. The new banshee? What about OVERLORD drops, what about new protoss air unit, maybe improved scout even. Carriers, battlecruisers. Guardians. There are tons of stuff man Consider this then: Immortals are better against Lurkers than Dragoons, which means you need less of them, which means you have more resources to fit in AA units to your composition. Do you think it's possible that the problem is players have not yet had time to adjust their ratio of Immortal/Stalker production, considering the Immortal change to Gateway has only been in effect for a single day? If it does turn out to be the case that Protoss is too weak to air with the current set-up, then I would suggest two different changes we could implement instead of removing the Immortal. First, since a potential third spell for the Sentinel is already under discussion, we consider the possibility of giving it some sort of spell that disrupts/stalls/protects against air units. And/or, we change the Stalker to have a different attack versus ground and air targets, like the Goliath, so we can balance it's AA role separately from its ground combat. | ||
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