EPTReads are coming, it's gonna take me a while. If there's anything you guys want answered while I'm here let me know.
Cultured Mini Mafia - Page 37
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suki
Canada1159 Posts
Reads are coming, it's gonna take me a while. If there's anything you guys want answered while I'm here let me know. | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
On February 26 2014 09:42 Toadesstern wrote: of course not, but I like this question. You replace WoS as my buddy to murder all of mafia. Easiest townread ever First Toad's townread is complete bullshit. Like there's no ifs ands or buts about it. Like, Toad should know better that Rayn is completely capable of this as scum. It's a complete bullshit read. Next, On February 26 2014 09:56 Toadesstern wrote: you honestly think either a mafia-rayn or mafia-Toad would let that situation slip by? He said and I said Yes I'm pretty sure rayn would be over this if he was mafia. How do you come to the conclusion that it's a thing mafia would want to say because you make it look like you're not voting me out of confusion. This is his response to me saying it's a bullshit read. It has absolutely nothing to do with Toad being town. It has absolutely nothing to do with Rayn being town because of the miller thing. It has nothing to do with my scumread on Toad either. Like the miller thing would be the easiest thing to say, "No, your pressure is completely scummy because here's why blah blah blah miller response alignment indicative blah blah." This post was completely post hoc justification of the read using actions AFTER THE FACT THAT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE MILLER THING!!! Like there's no justification there. His response has nothing to do with the townread; there is no natural towny progression of, "How in the frak do you not get the townread from Rayn's response (Toad you a miller bro)?" Like his read on me at that point has absolutely nothing to do with the miller read. His reason for Rayn being town has [B]NOTHING TO DO WITH THE MILLER THING!!!!![B] How in the frak does that make any sense? Like there's 0 counter pressure for me not coming to same conclusion on Rayn for the reasons that Toad actually has a townread on Rayn for. Rather, he's all like "Well Rayn would totes be all over this as scum so he's obviously town." The natural town thought process is, "Oh well you think I'm scum for the easiest townread ever one that's super easy to explain and understand. So clearly, you don't understand the townread. Explain townread and counterpressure for not getting the easiest townread ever." His responses are, "i'm totes serious you best explain that vote and oh btw scum rayn would totes act differently in response to this." Toad is fraking scum. | ||
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suki
Canada1159 Posts
On February 26 2014 09:55 Mocsta wrote: This is an unusually passive aggressive approach for early game.- And something I throw out as scum all the time. Instead of trying to understand if my read on u is genuine or feigned, u play the psychological game and twist my lack of vote as something scummy. That diversion is it self very scummy. Now suki, were u aware harry potter is not in the game?? This was the focus of my initial case against Mocsta. He somehow felt that my question, 'Why isn't your vote on me' indicated that I thought he was scummy, and furthermore called me scummy for it. I found this very scummy because it indicated a mafia mindset: 1. motive to turn non-scummy things to look scummy 2. very defensive On February 26 2014 10:05 Mocsta wrote: Rayn Do u thibk its plausible for a town wave to infer I am a scum read already? This as well, seemed overly defensive. On February 26 2014 11:14 Mocsta wrote: Im drafting up my issues with Suki so feedback on that would be good when its released. As an aside/observation/muse till then, I havent read in detail the interactions between Geript/Toad/Rayn (as I have been focussed on you + Suki) however I am finding Rayns approach to Toad odd (regardless of alignment). Basically I know Rayn doesnt respect Toads town play. Red Herring or something to keep note of? This strikes me as odd. He seems to be throwing suspicion on Rayn but not taking a stance. On February 26 2014 11:32 suki wrote: Mocsta jelly. Mocsta can you summarize your thoughts on Rayn? You find Rayn's approach to Toad odd and you said a bunch of words about how Rayn plays but I don't see any conclusion. He doesn't elaborate on his thoughts on rayn until his list post where he puts me as second and rayn as #1 scum. This was a wtf moment for me. Let me post the list: On February 26 2014 16:34 Mocsta wrote: Caught up and re-read Current reads: Wave Suki Gumshoe Calvalinho toadesstern ange777 jarjardrinks vivax geript Holyflare thechyz rayn Will expound in a bit. swamped @ work. Why is Gumshoe #3 town? Mocsta, just four hours previous, had voted gumshoe for his 'marketing crap'. And actually let me talk about that. On February 26 2014 11:35 WaveofShadow wrote: So do you find it likely that right out of the gate, scum gumshoe drops a townread on his scumbuddy Mocsta? JJD and Wave start going over gumshoe and finding things odd. On February 26 2014 11:37 Mocsta wrote: hmm I didnt get WoS point about and/or But rereading this from JJD post, I noticed something stick out to me. The stuff in red/blue is the biggest load of marketing crap I have read in this game so far. Mocsta notices 'marketing crap', but doesn't say that it's alignment indicative. On February 26 2014 11:41 WaveofShadow wrote: Hypocrisy doesn't necessarily come from scum, you know that. I do want to hear Mocsta's response though. ##Vote: gumshoe Wave votes gumshoe. On February 26 2014 11:43 JarJarDrinks wrote: No. I'd say that a scum gumshoe likely means moc is town. JJD adds his thoughts on scum gumshoe and says they are unlikely scum team. On February 26 2014 11:54 Mocsta wrote: ##Vote: Gumshoe That last post reminded me a lot of how he talked to Bum in GSL IV as if hes doing us a favour by gracing us with his presence. Mocsta votes gumshoe. This feels really really opportunistic. Mocsta only voted gumshoe after a few people had already posted their suspicions. Notice that he's done the same thing here as he did with rayn. He posted something 'odd' ('crap marketing' for gumshoe, rayn's 'red herring') but doesn't say it was alignment indicative. No one started saying Rayn was scummy, Mocsta didn't elaborate on his read even though I asked him. Wave and JJD start saying gumshoe is scummy. Mocsta votes gumshoe with his marketing crap reasoning. And then four hours later gumshoe is his top 3 town. He has since made a case on TheChyz. He starts defending me as town which rayn already pressured him on. On February 26 2014 22:06 Mocsta wrote: Look with suki, there sa massive change in style between shadow and shadow reboot. Just overall light heartedness. From glancing over the town n scum games; personally i still think she is town; HOWEVER, I also have noticed that after the first 24hrs or so she tends to produce analytical posts. I suggest this will be the best way to get an accurate read on her. Unfortunately its highly possible she will bandwagon Chz (which is relatively legitimate as either alginment) so I am not actually sure how much weight to give that. Let me get this straight. Mocsta thinks I am town. Mocsta thinks TheChyz is scum. He then comments that it is possible I will bandwagon TheChyz, then 'it's pretty un-alignment indicative', then 'I'm not sure how much weight I will put on that'. Which makes no sense if he thinks I'm town because of course I'm going to go on the most scummy looking person, which Mocsta is currently pushing as TheChyz (I think?). Why all those words about me bandwagoning on TheChyz? It sounds like it has a point but it really doesn't. ------- SUMMARY So anyways I think Mocsta's reads make no sense. His evolution of reads on people feels fake and opportunistic. I have no idea what's going on with that list of his. Like, what's the point of posting it? If it's to clarify things to the thread then he's really done the opposite because so many more questions have popped up after. Why is rayn bottom of the scum list? That implies that rayn is most scummy, but why hasn't he pressured rayn at all or made any case on him or anything? Why am I suddenly totes town after being so aggressive at me early game, coming up with a big case that I'm 'neutral' and now you're defending my towniness when people pressure you? Why is gumshoe top 3 townie when you had voted him just four hours prior to your big list? Scummy things: - His opening play: Twisting things to look scummy, self-conscious - Opportunistic voting of gumshoe, 'red herring' case on rayn that ended up going nowhere - not pushing rayn even though he thinks rayn is scummy - Evolution of reads that feels fake Even without the list, I think the same points would stand. The list just makes things all the more obvious. Mocsta is scummy to me. My vote is on him and will stay on him for now. I'll continue looking into other people. | ||
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Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
Im pretty sure you town though. Im curious though, you havnt commented on my case on Chz. If you truly think im scummy one of the things you should be doing is breaking down my case on Chz to say if you think its bullshit. Just because you can't follow my reads doesnt make me town or scum; just means i dont communicate well to you. The Chz case is the key to me currently, and I think its pretty decent. Your case amounts to pants on head and town over-transparency. | ||
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suki
Canada1159 Posts
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suki
Canada1159 Posts
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Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
I need your breakdown of my case. There is no value to geting a biased opinion on Chz, before reading my case - since you are clearly misinterpretting me. In particular your first comment about over-defensiveness. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
1) My townread on Rayn makes no sense It makes an awful lot of sense. There's 3 reasons for stating rayn is town in that situation, 1 being a minor one, 2 being big ones.
2) The whole thing was just a troll There is no possible explanation for calling it a troll. You see a guy redfishing and you think it's a troll? You either think the guy is a townie redfishing or the guy is a mafia faking redfishing, in either scenario you're 100% certain the guy in question is dead serious with what he's doing. Yet he calls it a troll. No townie would think of that situation as troll given knowledge of the troll, which he stated to be true. 3) The whole thing was just a troll #2 The whole thing was a troll according to him. If he, for whatever reason possible, actually thought it's a troll his mafiaread makes no sense at all. If I am trolling with a townread I am trolling with a townread. He's calling my townread a troll and nonsensical at the same time. Let's get this as clear as possible: It wasn't a troll at all, but if it was a troll there's no reason to consider it a weird thing because it's nothing more than a troll and I can troll as either town or mafia. The read itself makes no sense because it's a troll, not because it's from mafia or town. Calling me mafia based on that is bullshit. Again stating to make sure there's not some people who get the wrong idea: The thing was no troll at all 4) He comes up with a townread on rayn So Geript comes up with a townread on rayn based on the conversation and calls me null, because reading rayn as town makes no sense. He's reading him as town himself for christs sake and dares to tell me my townread makes no sense? 5) His reasoning for voting me On February 26 2014 22:24 geript wrote: which reads as "he's a null so has to be mafia". He spends the entire post to argue how what I did is not alignmentindicative at all and suddenly ends up voting me.Toad calls for millers to claim Rayn asks Toad if he's a miller Toad says no but he likes the question Rayn's response to Toadescum is like really really towny; it's an exceptionally off the cuff and funny that it's very hard to come from scum. The problem is that it's rayn and he's done this as either alignment many times. So that's why it's only semi-alignment indicative for Rayn. The thing is, at no point does any of this help read Toad; the initial miller thing isn't alignment indicative; recognizing Rayn's response as towny isn't alignment indicative. Like the only thing that's happened since him returning to the thread for him is nothing. If he were town, he'd at least try to give me an honest read. But since he's not he's probably just scum who fixated on a dashing sexy guy. ##unvote ##vote toadescum Lynch that guy right now. Thanks | ||
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Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
On February 27 2014 00:25 suki wrote: Although since you're here, mind going over why you think rayn is scum? And explaining your flip flop on gumshoe. Suki, Im a feel player. Every town game, ppl call me scum for not being consistent and not understanding that my ranking system isnt equivalent to everyone elses. Regarding Rayn: Again, its a feel read, and not a priority for me this cycle - hence why i havnt gone into detail. Note, Rayn didnt query this either. Regarding Gumshoe: I can't remember. His posts on the read through seemed OK with me and not as "dramatic" as others were pointing out. e.g. stuff like the martyring felt contextually fine to discuss. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
given knowledge of the troll = given knowledge of the situation | ||
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Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
I think you are treating this scenario based on how *YOU* would approach the situation. Your interpretation is plausible: RAyn is town, was aware of the OP and demonstrated quick wit which yes, leans heavily towards town over scum. What you may not be aware of is: Rayn is a setup man and as either alignment always has firm opinions on how to approach the setup optimally. The fact that he had the mental acuity to do the miller "joke" instead of berate you is not a solid town tell for someone like Rayn - which Geript rightfully pointed out. Thus, its also plauisble: Rayn was aware this was a trap, and dismantled the trap in an optimal manner. This applies as town or scum. i.e. he didnt attack you because the trap was so stupid he would look bad for doing it. I find the second option more likely..... | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On February 27 2014 00:45 Mocsta wrote: Toad, I think you are treating this scenario based on how *YOU* would approach the situation. Your interpretation is plausible: RAyn is town, was aware of the OP and demonstrated quick wit which yes, leans heavily towards town over scum. What you may not be aware of is: Rayn is a setup man and as either alignment always has firm opinions on how to approach the setup optimally. The fact that he had the mental acuity to do the miller "joke" instead of berate you is not a solid town tell for someone like Rayn - which Geript rightfully pointed out. Thus, its also plauisble: Rayn was aware this was a trap, and dismantled the trap in an optimal manner. This applies as town or scum. i.e. he didnt attack you because the trap was so stupid he would look bad for doing it. I find the second option more likely..... okay first of all, my point at this point in time really isn't about rayn being town or not but with geript being caught in a net of lies, like stating he though it's a troll and stuff like that. So I'd rather like you to comment on geript than on rayn, that's the thing that gets us forward. Secondly, I don't think the 2nd one is more plausible at all. It's an awfully complicated explanation for a very simple situation, or rather simple once you know what' going on. There's a crapton of people in this game and rayn may or may not be a set-up man but in the end he was the only one who was able to "dismantle" the trap in an incredibly townish fashion. He could have dismanteled it without calling me town as well and keeping a neutral stance on me. He didn't do so. | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
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Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
I dunno how to handle this Toad/you dispute. Its becoming an issue for me because neither of you are commenting on anything outside this dispute. I dunno if Toad being stupid makes him scum; im still leaning town on him. Now not just for effort but for wat looks like genuine CB. You are becoming more clear/concise with your thoughts which is helping me get a feel for your alignment. I would appreciate if you could comment on Suki now that she has produced a deeper thought post. (i.e. her case on me) | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On February 27 2014 00:53 geript wrote: Toad confirmed liar. Miller thing was trolly and he fucking knows it. His reads for calling Rayn town a fraking stupid; not wonky or weird enough to be towny. Just completely made up and not alignment indicative for anyone let alone Rayn. Third, he's completely taking things out of context and not even trying to understand how you can get a townie response from Rayn while the miller thing on his half is completely null. Anyone who can't see this needs to go back to the newbies for a year. It's completely fucking obvious. What part of the miller thing was trolly? When and where? Rayn or me? Because I can't believe how anyone would come to the conclusion that either of that is supposed to be trolly. I also took the idea from another game, so I can actually proof it to be intentionally despite the guy in question not doing it on purpose. I literally called it "the towniest thing I've ever seen a townie post if that was on purpose" or something along those lines, as a town-cop, so you can take those words as 100% granted. | ||
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Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
On February 27 2014 00:54 Toadesstern wrote: Yeah i got the thing was to do with Geript. I was just commenting on that specific piece.okay first of all, my point at this point in time really isn't about rayn being town or not but with geript being caught in a net of lies, like stating he though it's a troll and stuff like that. So I'd rather like you to comment on geript than on rayn, that's the thing that gets us forward. Secondly, I don't think the 2nd one is more plausible at all. It's an awfully complicated explanation for a very simple situation, or rather simple once you know what' going on. There's a crapton of people in this game and rayn may or may not be a set-up man but in the end he was the only one who was able to "dismantle" the trap in an incredibly townish fashion. He could have dismanteled it without calling me town as well and keeping a neutral stance on me. He didn't do so. With Geript, im still null with him; but personally hes not the type of guy I feel comfortable with lynching Day 1. Further, whilst I kinda get where you are coming from.. I feel some things are being given a toad interpretation. When I think of my motives when I play scum, and how my scum mates played in GSL mini.. i dont think we were trying to blatantly piss people off early Day1. You are poking aroudn for opportunities and yes, if you see them you will go for it (case in point: Rayn).. i dunno i just think a scum guy would have dropped this by now. Geripts maintained his position much like yourself and avoided discussing anything else.. much like yourself to me this really reads more like town CB than scum feigning. Another reason why Im suspect of Chz. Hes picking and choosing what to comment on and is actively adjusting his reads with thread sentiment. | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
On February 27 2014 00:54 Toadesstern wrote: Secondly, I don't think the 2nd one is more plausible at all. It's an awfully complicated explanation for a very simple situation, or rather simple once you know what' going on. There's a crapton of people in this game and rayn may or may not be a set-up man but in the end he was the only one who was able to "dismantle" the trap in an incredibly townish fashion. He could have dismanteled it without calling me town as well and keeping a neutral stance on me. He didn't do so. On February 27 2014 00:34 Toadesstern wrote: 4) He comes up with a townread on rayn So Geript comes up with a townread on rayn based on the conversation and calls me null, because reading rayn as town makes no sense. He's reading him as town himself for christs sake and dares to tell me my townread makes no sense? On February 27 2014 00:34 Toadesstern wrote: Best of geript 1) My townread on Rayn makes no sense It makes an awful lot of sense. There's 3 reasons for stating rayn is town in that situation, 1 being a minor one, 2 being big ones.
Yah, it's super easy because your reasons for calling him town are completely fail. You "completely get" how I can have a townread on him for how he responds but that doesn't factor into ANY OF YOUR REASONS for him being town. Like Rayn not calling you a retard doesn't make him anything in this or any other situation. Rayn not causing chaos and confusion actually makes him more likely to be scum; have you even seen half of his town games. Every other game or so Rayn is fucking awful as town and is worse for town than if he were scum; hell he'd even say this. More importantly, he doesn't operate to cause chaos and confusion as scum; he tries to lead town to mislynches all along the way. Saving lynchbait Toadescum for later is a peachy keen plan. Rayn calling you town doesn't make him anything in this or any other situation. You visably recognize and understand how I can have a townread on him, your beef is that it doesn't extend to you for something that's completely trolly and 100% not alignment indicative of ANYONE LET ALONE YOU BISH. Get over it scum. | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
On February 27 2014 00:58 Toadesstern wrote: What part of the miller thing was trolly? When and where? Rayn or me? Because I can't believe how anyone would come to the conclusion that either of that is supposed to be trolly. I also took the idea from another game, so I can actually proof it to be intentionally despite the guy in question not doing it on purpose. I literally called it "the towniest thing I've ever seen a townie post if that was on purpose" or something along those lines, as a town-cop, so you can take those words as 100% granted. Calling for Millers to claim in a game where there aren't millers is a complete troll and you know that. Good thing I got rid of the "too stupid to be scum" heuristic because it would apply here. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On February 27 2014 01:01 Mocsta wrote: Yeah i got the thing was to do with Geript. I was just commenting on that specific piece. With Geript, im still null with him; but personally hes not the type of guy I feel comfortable with lynching Day 1. Further, whilst I kinda get where you are coming from.. I feel some things are being given a toad interpretation. When I think of my motives when I play scum, and how my scum mates played in GSL mini.. i dont think we were trying to blatantly piss people off early Day1. You are poking aroudn for opportunities and yes, if you see them you will go for it (case in point: Rayn).. i dunno i just think a scum guy would have dropped this by now. Geripts maintained his position much like yourself and avoided discussing anything else.. much like yourself to me this really reads more like town CB than scum feigning. Another reason why Im suspect of Chz. Hes picking and choosing what to comment on and is actively adjusting his reads with thread sentiment. geript isn't dropping it because he's omgus'ing me as a "defence"... There's multiple people stating that what I said about rayn made sense, you may add yourself to that list if you consider that "I see how you could think so, but I don't think it's the only explanation so it's a null for me" of yours as agreeing with my read on rayn. He's literally the only guy in the thread that says reading rayn as town from my PoV makes no sense and wants to lynch me based on that. Even worse, he says it's a null and that's why I need to be lynched. That's the definition of omgus. He's not doing anthing, he's getting in the thread yelling "NO YOU" as a defence. He could easily stop doing that as town and just do something else, if he's doing that as mafia he's not going to stop it because he picked that as his defence. I'm trying to get mafia lynched here. | ||
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