EPTGSL Mini Mafia III - Page 35
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Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Regarding Z-Bo/Kei The "99.9%" thing seems like very misplaced rhetoric. Unless there's something you're withholding from us, Z-Bo's actions so far in no way make him 99.9% scum. I see you posting a lot of "weak reasoning," but so what? Fact of the matter is, there wasn't much reasoning to discuss on the v7 lynch. He was inactive, hadn't been contributing, and therefore some of us found him scummy. I can see how this can be interpreted as scummy, but "99.9%" is farfetched at best. In fact, what do you make about the rest of Z-Bo's play? It's important to take into consideration more than just his stuff on v7. Is there anything else about his play that suggests scum Z-Bo? The context of his play, in particularly his fearlessness, points to the exact opposite methinks. But your attitude shift from "I don't wanna make a D1 read" helplessness to "99.9% scum" on Z-Boson is really really weird. I'm not sure if it makes you scummy or not, but it is strange. I'll have to mull this one over. Regarding Drazak I don't know what to make of his in-activity at all. However, I kinda think he's town due to process of elimination (see below) Regarding my Scumreads Iamperfection Marvellosity The gist of it is that Marv's posting is really detached from this game, and is something I never see in his town games, but very frequently in his "lazier" scumgames. Iamperfection also has this golden post here: On October 22 2012 22:47 iamperfection wrote: i would hold a candle light vigil in your honor if you flipped town. i think its a moot point to keep hammering this point. you even said yourself its a terrible mindset that has gotten you lynched in the past. also its concerning that you called out for it in gsl I. you were scum remember. Me representing the town i am asking you to change nay begging you to change. If you are scum continue i have no problem pushing a lynch on you at this point. Shape up or die. ...where he basically calls Kei scum outright on Day 1 yet keeps his vote on v7 the entire day. I'm also sure I'm not mis-interpreting his "candle-light vigil" comment since he clarified his scumread on Kei here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=376602¤tpage=31#607 Also, I noticed that he had an "FOS" on me right after the lynch deadline, but has done nothing so far to push his read, despite me not posting in the thread at all in the last ~16 hours or so. He's also just really really sure about Draz being town, which is odd to me. I know I had a town read on Draz before, but so clearly declaring him town is completely unjustified in light of his complete absence from the thread after early D1. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On October 24 2012 00:28 marvellosity wrote: Ok, so with the Node knowledge, where does that leave you exactly? And what do you see as the scum motivation for coming up with reasons you deem ridiculous, when he could easily have said anything much more sensible sounding if he just wanted to hammer? Actually that question is kinda icky, but I'd like you to answer anyways About the Node thing: I think the difference to me is that he specifically said that he was voting Node for being a lurker and disappearing. But when it came down to it, that wasn't enough to keep his vote there, and he changed to coag who he thought had actually BEEN scummy, not just lurking. In this game, he had cases on me, austin, and Hapa (maybe more? I don't remember ight off), but in the end he voted for the lurker for some contrived reasoning. As for the scum motivation: I don't actually think he was planning to hammer then, exactly. His "case" came just 9 minutes after Hapa tossed his vote down. What I think happened is that scum ZB was feeling pressured for being so heavily on v7 for such little reasoning, so he looked hard to come up with ANY kind of vindication for his read. Then when he posted, he saw that Hapa had already voted, and took the opportunity to throw the hammer and at least buy himself another day to talk himself out of getting lynched. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36160 Posts
On October 24 2012 01:51 Keirathi wrote: About the Node thing: I think the difference to me is that he specifically said that he was voting Node for being a lurker and disappearing. But when it came down to it, that wasn't enough to keep his vote there, and he changed to coag who he thought had actually BEEN scummy, not just lurking. In this game, he had cases on me, austin, and Hapa (maybe more? I don't remember ight off), but in the end he voted for the lurker for some contrived reasoning. As for the scum motivation: I don't actually think he was planning to hammer then, exactly. His "case" came just 9 minutes after Hapa tossed his vote down. What I think happened is that scum ZB was feeling pressured for being so heavily on v7 for such little reasoning, so he looked hard to come up with ANY kind of vindication for his read. Then when he posted, he saw that Hapa had already voted, and took the opportunity to throw the hammer and at least buy himself another day to talk himself out of getting lynched. Hum, this actually reads pretty reasonable, I'll take another look when I'm at home. And hapa, you best have some fucking good shit to back that up (you don't, coz i'm town), because if I can't see how you've reasonably arrived at that conclusion I'm coming after you, and hard. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Howwwwweva, my read on iamperfection is much stronger - what are your thoughts on him? Lastly, I find it odd that you chose to go after me with that remark (apparently you're suggesting that me having a scumread on you = me being scummy?) instead of commenting on iamperfection at all. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36160 Posts
On October 24 2012 02:05 Hapahauli wrote: Don't you worry, I have some good stuff - it'll take me pretty long to compile though so I can't work on that in class atm. Howwwwweva, my read on iamperfection is much stronger - what are your thoughts on him? Lastly, I find it odd that you chose to go after me with that remark (apparently you're suggesting that me having a scumread on you = me being scummy?) instead of commenting on iamperfection at all. Yes, quite frankly I am suspicious of you for having a scumread on me, when I can't reasonably see how you got there. What you've said about me goes directly against how I'm feeling about the game. I guess I'll wait for your accusations and then respond. I've not commented on iamp because for him I'd have to go look at his filter to see what you're getting at and make my own conclusions, because so far I've been getting townie vibes from him. That will have to wait until I'm home from work. | ||
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Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
keir / marv / drazak / iamp In that order. I don't want to get too bogged up on marv though, because I really think keir is scum. Haven't read iamp's filter yet, but it's kei's "strong town read" on him that bothers me. I take it as legit whether keir is scum or town. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On October 24 2012 02:19 Keirathi wrote: Where did I ever say I had a strong town read on iamp? I said I had a slightly town read on him for the early tone of his posting, but that his later posting feels much more careful and like his scum tone. Thoughts on my iamp case good sir? | ||
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iamperfection
United States9640 Posts
On October 24 2012 01:47 Hapahauli wrote: Hey guys, I've been really busy with schoolwork for the last half-day. I do have some stuff to has out, and I'll post more complete thoughts when I get out of class in a couple of hours. Regarding Z-Bo/Kei The "99.9%" thing seems like very misplaced rhetoric. Unless there's something you're withholding from us, Z-Bo's actions so far in no way make him 99.9% scum. I see you posting a lot of "weak reasoning," but so what? Fact of the matter is, there wasn't much reasoning to discuss on the v7 lynch. He was inactive, hadn't been contributing, and therefore some of us found him scummy. I can see how this can be interpreted as scummy, but "99.9%" is farfetched at best. In fact, what do you make about the rest of Z-Bo's play? It's important to take into consideration more than just his stuff on v7. Is there anything else about his play that suggests scum Z-Bo? The context of his play, in particularly his fearlessness, points to the exact opposite methinks. But your attitude shift from "I don't wanna make a D1 read" helplessness to "99.9% scum" on Z-Boson is really really weird. I'm not sure if it makes you scummy or not, but it is strange. I'll have to mull this one over. Regarding Drazak I don't know what to make of his in-activity at all. However, I kinda think he's town due to process of elimination (see below) Regarding my Scumreads Iamperfection Marvellosity The gist of it is that Marv's posting is really detached from this game, and is something I never see in his town games, but very frequently in his "lazier" scumgames. Iamperfection also has this golden post here: ...where he basically calls Kei scum outright on Day 1 yet keeps his vote on v7 the entire day. I'm also sure I'm not mis-interpreting his "candle-light vigil" comment since he clarified his scumread on Kei here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=376602¤tpage=31#607 Also, I noticed that he had an "FOS" on me right after the lynch deadline, but has done nothing so far to push his read, despite me not posting in the thread at all in the last ~16 hours or so. He's also just really really sure about Draz being town, which is odd to me. I know I had a town read on Draz before, but so clearly declaring him town is completely unjustified in light of his complete absence from the thread after early D1. i already addressed that i commented i should have pushed harder something you conveniently left off. go read gsl II if you think im acting the same way as i did there then so be it but i know im not because im town. Just because i made a little mistake of not pushing as hard as i should of doesn't make me scum and the fact that you left out that i already brought it up strengthens my read on you because you are once again twisting my words for your convenience. On October 23 2012 10:01 iamperfection wrote: people need to stop ignoring my posts when im town it happens every fucking game basically. When i say wait it means wait. Although i would of pushed v7 even if i had gotten back in time fucker had to go so im not really mad Any who another post that got ignored that i should have probably pushed harder when i made it was this one Kerihati used the same fucking argument when he was scum in gsl 1. He Basically he argues this how i always act and thats why he was doing this. My scum read on Kerihati remains and his stupid argument after the flip even makes less sense since he observed gsl II. People used shit arguments to blame ottoxol for being scum in that game just because he droped a hammer. I think droping a hammer is a null tell and the fact that kerihati blatantly abandoned all logic makes me think he is scum. Does this post not count or did you simply ignore it. And you know what i don't particularly care that i didn't push Kerihati because it had zero traction anyways his actions today speak louder where he straight up ignores everything besides z-boson basically. HE only comments on things he is comfortable with and thats me and now apparently herp derp zboson hammer must be scum he is the one that has been distant to going on's in this thread and the fact that you ignored that previous post i made concerns me a lot because i know your capable of better. From my perspective you are twisting words just to make a case. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
One reason I asked iamp about the whole "scum teammate wouldn't let drazak say this stuff" is that it's a reason to like a drazak/marv scumteam. Marv wasn't around early to stop drazak, drazak has since posted little and mostly clammed up. I can't find a chunk of time to write out full thoughts until a little later though. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36160 Posts
On October 24 2012 02:41 austinmcc wrote: Tee hee. Kind of weird that a couple people have popped up with recent thoughts that marv might be scum. By process of elimination I was kind of coming down to drazak/marv with outside chances on iamp/hapa/keir. One reason I asked iamp about the whole "scum teammate wouldn't let drazak say this stuff" is that it's a reason to like a drazak/marv scumteam. Marv wasn't around early to stop drazak, drazak has since posted little and mostly clammed up. I can't find a chunk of time to write out full thoughts until a little later though. this might be the stupidest thing i ever read. anyways, worktime finished. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On October 24 2012 02:43 marvellosity wrote: this might be the stupidest thing i ever read. anyways, worktime finished. That's not even the stupidest thing you've read in my filters. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
You not pushing your case isn't the main issue here (well it IS an issue, but not the main point). The concern I have is that you basically called Kei scum, and simply left your vote on v7 the entire time. What you post after the fact - what you said you should have done in retrospect - has no bearing on what you did. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
A lot of what I end up making reads on this game, so far, is process of elimination. I don't think Z-BosoN is scum. Both because of the hammer/comments (Which I wish hadn't happened, I was really hoping Drazak would come back, respond, and then was thinking about pushing him hard based on his responses), and because...I dunno. I actually find Z-BosoN townie this game. I was all ready to jump on the wagon when he first came up as a legit candidate, and then after reading through his filter myself I didn't want to lynch him. I don't think DP is scum. Active, making cases, that role question early, blah blah blah. I don't think iamperfection is scum, based on that VERY quick vote on DP early D1. I've seen scum iamperfection throw early votes out, so that worries me a little (Aperture he had that insta-vote on Ghost for something small, just like with the vote on DP this game), BUT everything after that vote is different. He hasn't fully been lurking, he's been making some good comments, and so I'm townie on him, but with a weaker read than on Z-BosoN/DP. Don't take this read for gospel, and I need to look at this "scummy on x but voting y" stuff, because that's usually something that I think is a big scum tell. I'm not sure I've had a fantastic track record using it to make reads off of though, really unsure there. Hapa fought with Z-BosoN a bunch yesterday. Mildly townie on him for that I think? I forget why on this one and I don't have my notes with me at work. That leaves me keirathi, marv, drazak. Keirathi I don't have a strong read on this game yet. He's another player, like Z-BosoN, that I fully expected to find scummy when reading through him. Yet I don't, I end up super wishy-washy and could go either way. Drazak and Marv in next post, along with a couple thoughts on setup (Can't resist). | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
He's going to come up every day. He's going to be a mislynch candidate, sure, but best to get him out of the way before LYLO, and he's also a scum candidate. You guys may not have as many town reads as I do, but we're in a very small game. If you've got 2-3 town reads and know you're town, you've seriously narrowed down the options for possible scum. Things are narrow enough in my mind that "doesn't seem townie" + "not many options" + the stuff below = probably scum Drazak. Here's why I'm concerned about Drazak mainly. He was relatively active in the beginning. Since then, he's clammed up significantly. I was hoping he'd start posting more, especially if people weren't jumping all over him, because yeah, it's difficult to get a read on him right now. But the part of his filter that keeps sticking out to me are things like: On October 23 2012 04:50 drazak wrote: Not to defend hapa too much, but I know when I've read things, I think different things whehter or not I'm hungry, or if other things are going on in my life, maybe he reconsidered after reading something again. On October 23 2012 05:32 drazak wrote: I don't think he doesn't find him scummy, he just doesn't want the hammer while he's afk, might have someone else he finds scummier. those read very scummy to me because of statements in recent games. I can't NOT look at those and see: On October 01 2012 17:40 Node wrote: I don't think Shady Sands is scum -- at least, not given what we've seen so far. His "trolling" antics were silly, but they weren't scummy. If he were scum, I don't think he would've dropped the trolling pretext so quickly, and I certainly don't think he would be willing to reappear and start pushing targets. On September 28 2012 05:29 Sinensis wrote: I think Ottoxlol believes he's being unfairly voted for. I'm null on him. I think the worst thing he's done is instead of formulating a proper defense (against something that really didn't need defending against), he tried to shift the blame onto others...BUT he wasn't trying to shift the blame onto 1 or 2 other people, he was trying to shift the blame back onto everyone. That's why I think he just believes he's being treated unfairly and is just lashing out at everyone else. This doesn't strike me as scummy so much as just bad town play. Aside from that all he's done is be critical of SnB's play. Which I understand because SnB has been posting weird stuff this game. First there was the random lynch suggestion. He posted this too: I've said a lot already about why VTs shouldn't be fake claiming. Was SnB fishing for people to agree with him or is he suggesting something that benefits mafia on purpose? ANYWAY I just think Ottoxlol is understandably concerned with SnB's play, and I think in the future Ottoxlol should start making proper defenses instead of blaming everyone else. To me, defending people out of nowhere for odd reasons - Node defending Shady for things he hadn't done, Sinensis saying things like "I think Ottoxlol believes he's being unfairly voted for" stick out. Townies read posts, townies make reads, townies justify their reads with posts. Scum knows alignments, scum sometimes justify reads out of nowhere with...non-post stuff? They're trying to give a read but it's clear that they're not getting it from the same place a town player would be. Drazak's comments feel like that. Hapa made a comment about leaving to eat, and Drazak partially defends him by saying that he thinks differently whether he's hungry or full. It's like...a very odd reason to justify what someone was poking at hapa about. It's not intra-thread, it's this weird external defense. The bit on Z-BosoN is...not as good, that comment isn't as out of place, but again it's like...Drazak explaining something based on stuff that wasn't in thread. Just those two posts are enough to make me scummy on Drazak, enough to lynch because there are so few other options. It's also just very simple. I've had better luck with simple reads (Quick readthrough of GSL Open 2 N1 before dying, quick readthrough of Liquid City D1 after being absent (although LC not as much because I went crazy the next day)) than I have with overly complex ones. So I'm going to go with my gut and say that the simple weird statements and outside-the-game comments make him scum. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
I'm always paranoid about marv because of the first game we played. Here are some general thoughts, things for everyone to keep in mind: Almost half of Drazak's filter is before marv posted in this game. More than half of Drazak's filter is before marv got active this game (he came back but went to sleep or whatever). That's just a thing. It's only relevant IF Drazak flips red, and even though it's not super indicative of anything, but when I think "Why wouldn't scum 2 be reigning in scumDrazak?" one obvious answer is "Scum 2 wasn't around yet." Marv fits the bill of someone who wasn't around. Marv has to play odd this game. I think a lot of the thread has read/played in games he was in. Some players have been scum with him. Even if you can't fully identify scumMarv and townMarv, marv has trouble this game because he may well be a lynch on D3 or D4. If game not solved or marv not shot, probably scum marv at that point, that whole argument. In this game, that's a HUGE liability for scum. 1/2 of scum being certain to get killed D3 or D4 as policy? No bueno. It means scumMarv, with a newbie scumbuddy, CANNOT BUS LIKE NORMAL. Scummarv likes bussing weak scum players, but he can't this game, because there's too much risk. Late game he'll probably get killed, so he can't bus the only other scum. Therefore, scummarv can't go with his normal game plan. Don't look for game plan, don't look for meta, blah blah blah. Just look for contributions. Look for how he feels. I don't love the way he's staying back this game, making friends, cracking jokes, etc. One way to get around the policy lynch later is to seem like you're distracted this game. Miss some D1, gotta be absent for part of game later, no strong reads, etc. etc. That way it doesn't look as odd that you've not been NKed after a couple nights. Really, scummarv would have 2 options - play SUPER townie and try not to get policy lynched, or sit back and hope to make the argument that his play this game hasn't warranted a NK, therefore don't policy lynch him. So anyway, getting to the point. I'm wary of marv. I'm wary of marv every game, but THIS game in particular throws a wrench into the way he normally plays scum. It's more difficult for him to bus his ONLY teammate. It's much more difficult to throw off the policy lynch, because we've got some strong townies but nobody... S class? No vets that are almost sure to die N1 because scum just can't leave them up. He's in an odd position this game IF he's scum. Okay so, there are some dumb thoughts. I haven't always agreed with his thought processes this game, I don't like that he found v7 scummy for things I found townie, I don't like that he finds Drazak townie off some of his contributions when I get hung up on those weird outside-the-game posts. But oh well, that doesn't make marv scum. It just makes me wary, and it makes me really think about how he would have to play a 2-scum game this game. If you're town marv, then this is still what you get for LV. Eventually I'll get over it, but your play this game has been interesting. I don't care if you've been low involvement in other town games, or been busy, or whatever. It feels very backseat-y, very joke-y and friendly at times (yes you've thrown some insults as well), which gets the thought stuck in my head that you're trying to avoid some kind of policy lynch on yourself. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
We may have a doc, we may have a cop. We may have neither. Cop has a lot of good checks, in both people that probably won't get lynched but aren't doing a lot, to make sure we have some green checks and can go into D3 with a couple confirmed townies or something. I'd <3 doc protection, but we've had a couple people contribute a good bit and any of them are good choices. I like the idea of a cop checking marv, it gets that whole question out of the way, and we can be sure of his alignment later (no framers, no godfathers, mafia's only chance to stop a cop check is to play "guess the cop" and get a RB). Consider that. If we can lynch scum tomorrow, a marv check would solve all the problems about taking marv to D3 or D4. We'd know his alignment, and we'd have already lynched 1/2 the scumteam, so a claim wouldn't be that bad. In terms of claims in general, don't be too paranoid. Especially if we can get rid of a single scum, or if someone else is claiming and very well could be fake, I think we may want early claims. We're at 6/2, 5/2 if there's an NK. Being able to narrow down a field of 7 to a field of 5 for the lynch tomorrow would be nice. If we go an extra day it's even nicer. And since the cop is very powerful in this setup, given no framers and no gf, you either need breadcrumbs that will become obvious or to claim before you think you've got a chance of dying. Obvious breadcrumbs are dangerous, so an earlier claim is probably better. Anyway, ta da! Cop should check marv if we have it. That's going to be our biggest headache imo. And people should feel free to claim earlier than they think they should, because the game is so small. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
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