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Breadth of Gameplay in SC2 - Page 34

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NEW IN-GAME CHANNEL: FRB
whatthefat
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States918 Posts
March 18 2012 02:57 GMT
#661
Having watched and played several games on these maps yesterday and today, I'd like to summarize my thoughts at this stage.

At my level (high diamond), I feel like the character of the game is not immensely different. I mean, the timings are wonky and it takes much longer to reach max, but it's still essentially still one large army slamming into another at some point.

However, I did get to watch some master level games yesterday, and I've included a battle report below for a particularly entertaining game between BlingLing (T) and babysimba (Z) that I think showcases the potential for this change. (Thanks to both players for such a fun game!)

babysimba opened with a 15 hatch, while BlingLing went 14 CC.

[image loading]

On spotting the CC, babysimba made the excellent decision to take a third before pool.

[image loading]

With both players beginning to macro up, BlingLing pushed into the Zerg natural with a handful of marines off two barracks. With some good marine control, he managed to inflict some minor damage, killing a morphing spine, killing 4 lings, and getting home with his damaged marines. However, he did not spot the Zerg third.

[image loading]

BlingLing teched to siege tanks and threw down two more barracks. He also added a couple of missile turrets, possibly fearing 8 minute mutas (which are quite frightening if Zerg takes both high yield gases quickly). However, babysimba had delayed Lair in favor of droning and amassing lings. With map control established, babysimba teched to infestors, while Blingling took the gasless third.

With a medivac out, BlingLing pushed across the map.

[image loading]

Baneling nest was complete, but not baneling speed. babysimba did a reasonable job of cleaning up the pressure, but some cute drop micro and excellent tank spread ensured the Terran forces did some damage.

[image loading]

While this engagement was playing out, both players had taken their fourth bases, and Zerg had started a Hive, and amassed a good group of infestors. At the 15 minute mark, both players were around 130 supply. You might note this is a little low given the appearance of the minimap, with both players comfortably on 4 bases, Zerg on Hive tech, and Terran taking a fifth. This is of course a direct effect of the reduced mineral patches.

[image loading]

At this point, things started to get very interesting. Both players began to split their main army into small hit squads, each trying to take advantage of the other's distributed bases. Simultaneous engagements occurred in the chokepoint to Terran's natural, and along the bottom path of the map.

[image loading]

In the meantime, BlingLing snuck 4 marines into the Zerg third to pick off creep tumors, while babysimba pushed back into the Terran chokepoint with a group of lings.

[image loading]

With the dust barely settled on that skirmish, another began below, with babysimba using some clever burrow tactics to ambush and fungal a group of marines.

[image loading]

At the 18 minute mark, Zerg decided it was time to spend his huge bank, and dumped it into 7 ultralisks, bringing both players to about 150 supply.

Terran next attempted a drop on the Zerg fifth. It was quickly spotted, but the distraction allowed BlingLing to move into a strong highground position, cutting off Zerg's sixth. Considering the position too tenuous, he unsieged and maneuvered this force to rejoin his main army.

[image loading]

Terran's macro was now starting to pull slightly ahead, with a supply lead of about 30. That might sound really bad for a Zerg in a ZvT. But in this reduced resource version of the game, falling behind in supply does not seem to be quite as grim. From my limited experience, there seem to be more opportunities to pull oneself back into the game now that the macro moves at along at a more reasonable pace.

With both armies jockeying for position in the middle, Terran dropped the Zerg seventh and sent another two hit squads to simultaneously attack Zerg's third and sixth bases. As these distractions pulled the Zerg forces away from the center, Terran pushed ever closer to the Zerg natural.

[image loading]

As Zerg cleared up the multiple harassments, Terran attempted to reposition his army to higher ground. But the Zerg forces were able to intercept before the tanks were sieged.

[image loading]

While Zerg was able to take out several siege tanks, the ultralisks had insufficient support and melted under the marine fire.

Terran immediately sent a small group to deny any further attempts to expand to the top of the map, while pulling back his main force to consolidate his lead.

[image loading]

In response, Zerg counter-attacked Terran's south-most base.

[image loading]

Without infestor support, Terran's marines were able to clean up the attack, with Zerg trading reasonably.

[image loading]

Zerg's economy was now crippled, with Terran taking an annoying position behind the mineral line at Zerg's fifth base. However, Terran was down to 34 SCVs, and Zerg had cleverly blocked Terran's main mining base with a burrowed zergling.

[image loading]
[image loading]

Seeing a chance to equalize, Zerg pushed through the center with ultralisks supported by infestors, reducing both players to 140 supply.

[image loading]

Both players were fighting valiantly, seemingly able to just continue fighting indefinitely all over the map. The amount of action had naturally disrupted Zerg's macro, however, and he did not have enough larvae to spend his bank of 1300 minerals and 1300 gas before the next engagement.

With the game now in a delicate state of balance, BlingLing was able to clear up the remaining ultralisks, and catch the vital infestors out of position before they could escape.

[image loading]

With BlingLing in a commanding position, babysimba was forced to gg.

[image loading]

Those of us observing were extremely impressed, and grateful to the players for putting on such a good show.
SlayerS_BoxeR: "I always feel sorry towards Greg (Grack?) T_T"
Comeh
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States18919 Posts
March 18 2012 02:58 GMT
#662
I'm curious to hear your opinion on how SC2 highground functions, and whether or not it should resemble BW's more...(i didn't see anything about this when skimmed thoroughly.)
ヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノDELETE ICEFROGヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(
FraNKzZ
Profile Joined May 2010
Spain41 Posts
March 18 2012 03:02 GMT
#663
Wow, i like the idea a lot!
Will blizzard think on it?
RaDiiX
Profile Joined March 2012
Canada1 Post
March 18 2012 03:08 GMT
#664
+ Show Spoiler +
On March 18 2012 11:57 whatthefat wrote:
Having watched and played several games on these maps yesterday and today, I'd like to summarize my thoughts at this stage.

At my level (high diamond), I feel like the character of the game is not immensely different. I mean, the timings are wonky and it takes much longer to reach max, but it's still essentially still one large army slamming into another at some point.

However, I did get to watch some master level games yesterday, and I've included a battle report below for a particularly entertaining game between BlingLing (T) and babysimba (Z) that I think showcases the potential for this change. (Thanks to both players for such a fun game!)

babysimba opened with a 15 hatch, while BlingLing went 14 CC.

[image loading]

On spotting the CC, babysimba made the excellent decision to take a third before pool.

[image loading]

With both players beginning to macro up, BlingLing pushed into the Zerg natural with a handful of marines off two barracks. With some good marine control, he managed to inflict some minor damage, killing a morphing spine, killing 4 lings, and getting home with his damaged marines. However, he did not spot the Zerg third.

[image loading]

BlingLing teched to siege tanks and threw down two more barracks. He also added a couple of missile turrets, possibly fearing 8 minute mutas (which are quite frightening if Zerg takes both high yield gases quickly). However, babysimba had delayed Lair in favor of droning and amassing lings. With map control established, babysimba teched to infestors, while Blingling took the gasless third.

With a medivac out, BlingLing pushed across the map.

[image loading]

Baneling nest was complete, but not baneling speed. babysimba did a reasonable job of cleaning up the pressure, but some cute drop micro and excellent tank spread ensured the Terran forces did some damage.

[image loading]

While this engagement was playing out, both players had taken their fourth bases, and Zerg had started a Hive, and amassed a good group of infestors. At the 15 minute mark, both players were around 130 supply. You might note this is a little low given the appearance of the minimap, with both players comfortably on 4 bases, Zerg on Hive tech, and Terran taking a fifth. This is of course a direct effect of the reduced mineral patches.

[image loading]

At this point, things started to get very interesting. Both players began to split their main army into small hit squads, each trying to take advantage of the other's distributed bases. Simultaneous engagements occurred in the chokepoint to Terran's natural, and along the bottom path of the map.

[image loading]

In the meantime, BlingLing snuck 4 marines into the Zerg third to pick off creep tumors, while babysimba pushed back into the Terran chokepoint with a group of lings.

[image loading]

With the dust barely settled on that skirmish, another began below, with babysimba using some clever burrow tactics to ambush and fungal a group of marines.

[image loading]

At the 18 minute mark, Zerg decided it was time to spend his huge bank, and dumped it into 7 ultralisks, bringing both players to about 150 supply.

Terran next attempted a drop on the Zerg fifth. It was quickly spotted, but the distraction allowed BlingLing to move into a strong highground position, cutting off Zerg's sixth. Considering the position too tenuous, he unsieged and maneuvered this force to rejoin his main army.

[image loading]

Terran's macro was now starting to pull slightly ahead, with a supply lead of about 30. That might sound really bad for a Zerg in a ZvT. But in this reduced resource version of the game, falling behind in supply does not seem to be quite as grim. From my limited experience, there seem to be more opportunities to pull oneself back into the game now that the macro moves at along at a more reasonable pace.

With both armies jockeying for position in the middle, Terran dropped the Zerg seventh and sent another two hit squads to simultaneously attack Zerg's third and sixth bases. As these distractions pulled the Zerg forces away from the center, Terran pushed ever closer to the Zerg natural.

[image loading]

As Zerg cleared up the multiple harassments, Terran attempted to reposition his army to higher ground. But the Zerg forces were able to intercept before the tanks were sieged.

[image loading]

While Zerg was able to take out several siege tanks, the ultralisks had insufficient support and melted under the marine fire.

Terran immediately sent a small group to deny any further attempts to expand to the top of the map, while pulling back his main force to consolidate his lead.

[image loading]

In response, Zerg counter-attacked Terran's south-most base.

[image loading]

Without infestor support, Terran's marines were able to clean up the attack, with Zerg trading reasonably.

[image loading]

Zerg's economy was now crippled, with Terran taking an annoying position behind the mineral line at Zerg's fifth base. However, Terran was down to 34 SCVs, and Zerg had cleverly blocked Terran's main mining base with a burrowed zergling.

[image loading]
[image loading]

Seeing a chance to equalize, Zerg pushed through the center with ultralisks supported by infestors, reducing both players to 140 supply.

[image loading]

Both players were fighting valiantly, seemingly able to just continue fighting indefinitely all over the map. The amount of action had naturally disrupted Zerg's macro, however, and he did not have enough larvae to spend his bank of 1300 minerals and 1300 gas before the next engagement.

With the game now in a delicate state of balance, BlingLing was able to clear up the remaining ultralisks, and catch the vital infestors out of position before they could escape.

[image loading]

With BlingLing in a commanding position, babysimba was forced to gg.

[image loading]

Those of us observing were extremely impressed, and grateful to the players for putting on such a good show.



The Crux of why it didn't feel any different is because that map is mainly one dimensional with 1 main attack path.

What needs to happens all SC2 MAPS need to be like BW Maps that are huge with 16 + bases and bigger than Tal'darim + The 6,7,8 Mineral patches with 1/2 gases per base needs to be tested on these huge maps then we will get to see if it creates games where many more skirmishes happen.

The main crux of the deathball problem is the fact that maps are too small and cramped in SC2 with little attack paths although Protoss seems to be the main race that is constantly playing deathball style. We need the bigger maps people that will be the solution to greater and more exciting games like BroodWar. Mix that in with Barrins 6/7 1 gas per base idea and it will be LIKE BW but SC2

BIGGER than Tal'Darim
nothing
Maxtor
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom273 Posts
March 18 2012 03:29 GMT
#665
I do agree with you on this point, a lot of the entertainment value is lost alongside when both players sit in their 1-3 base and macro, I'll be playing the prescribed maps with my mates and spread the word.
theBizness
Profile Joined July 2011
United States696 Posts
March 18 2012 03:49 GMT
#666
On March 18 2012 11:01 discomatt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 18 2012 10:38 iTzSnypah wrote:
On March 18 2012 10:06 PiPoGevy wrote:
On March 18 2012 09:58 iTzSnypah wrote:
On March 18 2012 09:48 PiPoGevy wrote:
On March 18 2012 09:40 iTzSnypah wrote:
I like the altered maps because it adds depth to the game. If you constantly make workers and try to take a 3rd before 9mins, you lose to any semi-well executed 2base all-in because your opponent just has 600 minerals worth of army more than you because he has 12 less workers or so (optimal saturation is 15 workers per base 6m1hyg). Having to conscientiously choose to not make workers is nice.

[I'm talking about taking a 3rd in this paragraph.]
The thing that gets me the most. Barrin's concluded that you wanted lots and lots of bases to maintain high enough income to fund your death ball of doom. However all Barrin's solution has done is made games less massive (eg instead of huge armies, you just have large armies). People are still trying to play the maps to Barrin's idea of harass or die while expanding a lot. This is far from good on these maps (Im talking about 6m1hyg only). Bases just cost TOO much to take for this idea to work. For example a standard Terran base costs 550minerals (400cc+150oc). Investing 550 minerals not into army when armies are small to begin with is premeditated suicide. The only way for this idea to be feasible is drastically reduce costs of expanding. It should be a risk, not death.

Not really, I found that I was able to make army and build a command centre of 2 in between


Have you played against a 2base all-in on these maps? If your opponent scouts you taking a 3rd and decides to all-in, you've just lost the game. the ~200 minerals per base per minute your getting less makes 3rd's (before lets say like 11minutes) an all-in.

I think a better solution would be that army costs more. This would require Blizzard's intervention however unlike Barrin's solution it would be less flawed.


Its not an automatic loss, the defenders advantage is still there, smaller armies can take on bigger ones if good micro is undertaken, the player can go attack while expanding behind, dont forget Barrin's solution is temporary, ofcourse intervention is needed by Blizzard to make things better, but wait until a pro or something tries it out


Ok some numbers. player 1 is cutting workers at optimal and all-inining upon seeing opponent constucting 3rd. player 2 is not cutting workers and is super saturating in anticipation of 3rd which he is building.

Raw stats:

Player 1:
27(30) workers mining at ~950 minerals (from one of barrin's graphs)[not factoring if T with mules] ~240/(480) gas (also from one of barrins graps) per minute (Im assuming game time).
Has not started 3rd.

Player 2:
~40 workers mining at ~950 minerals ~240/(480) gas per minute.
Has started creating 3rd.

Opportunity cost difference(assuming nexus/cc): 900(750) minerals [30workers in parentheses] (assumes more production buildings from all-iner)

A ~900 mineral difference army at your base at between 9-11 minutes. You lose (unless you have like banshee vs roach or something tarded like that). The opponent has greater reinforcements than you. Any defenders advantage currently in the game is not significant enough to overcome the difference in army size.

As you can see. All barrin's change does is make it so the game time is longer because you HAVE to wait until you tech/army to expand. IF barrins only goal is to have it so you can produce less units per base creating the need for more bases the only logical change would be for units to cost more.


40 workers on 2 bases? Your 3rd would be quite saturated the instant it finished. That's pretty much going all-out eco, and should lose to an all-in.
If you're fully saturated on 2 bases there's no need to build more workers until your 3rd is nearly done. When complete, you transfer a few workers, and begin saturating your third - producing up to 3 workers at a time.

If you look at that with 8 patches, it's like saying having ~55 workers on 2 base (while building a 3rd) is extremely vulnerable to all-ins. Well yes, yes it is.


I would also add the the only point is not to have less units per base. By forcing you to take more bases, it also forces you to defend a more spread out area.
Less money for casters, more money for players.
-NegativeZero-
Profile Joined August 2011
United States2142 Posts
March 18 2012 04:09 GMT
#667
On March 18 2012 12:08 RaDiiX wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On March 18 2012 11:57 whatthefat wrote:
Having watched and played several games on these maps yesterday and today, I'd like to summarize my thoughts at this stage.

At my level (high diamond), I feel like the character of the game is not immensely different. I mean, the timings are wonky and it takes much longer to reach max, but it's still essentially still one large army slamming into another at some point.

However, I did get to watch some master level games yesterday, and I've included a battle report below for a particularly entertaining game between BlingLing (T) and babysimba (Z) that I think showcases the potential for this change. (Thanks to both players for such a fun game!)

babysimba opened with a 15 hatch, while BlingLing went 14 CC.

[image loading]

On spotting the CC, babysimba made the excellent decision to take a third before pool.

[image loading]

With both players beginning to macro up, BlingLing pushed into the Zerg natural with a handful of marines off two barracks. With some good marine control, he managed to inflict some minor damage, killing a morphing spine, killing 4 lings, and getting home with his damaged marines. However, he did not spot the Zerg third.

[image loading]

BlingLing teched to siege tanks and threw down two more barracks. He also added a couple of missile turrets, possibly fearing 8 minute mutas (which are quite frightening if Zerg takes both high yield gases quickly). However, babysimba had delayed Lair in favor of droning and amassing lings. With map control established, babysimba teched to infestors, while Blingling took the gasless third.

With a medivac out, BlingLing pushed across the map.

[image loading]

Baneling nest was complete, but not baneling speed. babysimba did a reasonable job of cleaning up the pressure, but some cute drop micro and excellent tank spread ensured the Terran forces did some damage.

[image loading]

While this engagement was playing out, both players had taken their fourth bases, and Zerg had started a Hive, and amassed a good group of infestors. At the 15 minute mark, both players were around 130 supply. You might note this is a little low given the appearance of the minimap, with both players comfortably on 4 bases, Zerg on Hive tech, and Terran taking a fifth. This is of course a direct effect of the reduced mineral patches.

[image loading]

At this point, things started to get very interesting. Both players began to split their main army into small hit squads, each trying to take advantage of the other's distributed bases. Simultaneous engagements occurred in the chokepoint to Terran's natural, and along the bottom path of the map.

[image loading]

In the meantime, BlingLing snuck 4 marines into the Zerg third to pick off creep tumors, while babysimba pushed back into the Terran chokepoint with a group of lings.

[image loading]

With the dust barely settled on that skirmish, another began below, with babysimba using some clever burrow tactics to ambush and fungal a group of marines.

[image loading]

At the 18 minute mark, Zerg decided it was time to spend his huge bank, and dumped it into 7 ultralisks, bringing both players to about 150 supply.

Terran next attempted a drop on the Zerg fifth. It was quickly spotted, but the distraction allowed BlingLing to move into a strong highground position, cutting off Zerg's sixth. Considering the position too tenuous, he unsieged and maneuvered this force to rejoin his main army.

[image loading]

Terran's macro was now starting to pull slightly ahead, with a supply lead of about 30. That might sound really bad for a Zerg in a ZvT. But in this reduced resource version of the game, falling behind in supply does not seem to be quite as grim. From my limited experience, there seem to be more opportunities to pull oneself back into the game now that the macro moves at along at a more reasonable pace.

With both armies jockeying for position in the middle, Terran dropped the Zerg seventh and sent another two hit squads to simultaneously attack Zerg's third and sixth bases. As these distractions pulled the Zerg forces away from the center, Terran pushed ever closer to the Zerg natural.

[image loading]

As Zerg cleared up the multiple harassments, Terran attempted to reposition his army to higher ground. But the Zerg forces were able to intercept before the tanks were sieged.

[image loading]

While Zerg was able to take out several siege tanks, the ultralisks had insufficient support and melted under the marine fire.

Terran immediately sent a small group to deny any further attempts to expand to the top of the map, while pulling back his main force to consolidate his lead.

[image loading]

In response, Zerg counter-attacked Terran's south-most base.

[image loading]

Without infestor support, Terran's marines were able to clean up the attack, with Zerg trading reasonably.

[image loading]

Zerg's economy was now crippled, with Terran taking an annoying position behind the mineral line at Zerg's fifth base. However, Terran was down to 34 SCVs, and Zerg had cleverly blocked Terran's main mining base with a burrowed zergling.

[image loading]
[image loading]

Seeing a chance to equalize, Zerg pushed through the center with ultralisks supported by infestors, reducing both players to 140 supply.

[image loading]

Both players were fighting valiantly, seemingly able to just continue fighting indefinitely all over the map. The amount of action had naturally disrupted Zerg's macro, however, and he did not have enough larvae to spend his bank of 1300 minerals and 1300 gas before the next engagement.

With the game now in a delicate state of balance, BlingLing was able to clear up the remaining ultralisks, and catch the vital infestors out of position before they could escape.

[image loading]

With BlingLing in a commanding position, babysimba was forced to gg.

[image loading]

Those of us observing were extremely impressed, and grateful to the players for putting on such a good show.



The Crux of why it didn't feel any different is because that map is mainly one dimensional with 1 main attack path.

What needs to happens all SC2 MAPS need to be like BW Maps that are huge with 16 + bases and bigger than Tal'darim + The 6,7,8 Mineral patches with 1/2 gases per base needs to be tested on these huge maps then we will get to see if it creates games where many more skirmishes happen.

The main crux of the deathball problem is the fact that maps are too small and cramped in SC2 with little attack paths although Protoss seems to be the main race that is constantly playing deathball style. We need the bigger maps people that will be the solution to greater and more exciting games like BroodWar. Mix that in with Barrins 6/7 1 gas per base idea and it will be LIKE BW but SC2

BIGGER than Tal'Darim

Most BW maps were 128x128 (Tal'Darim is 176x176) with maybe 12-14 bases...

(yes I know units are generally larger and move faster in SC2, so it's very hard to objectively compare map sizes between the games)
vibeo gane,
WaKai
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada88 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-18 05:13:22
March 18 2012 05:10 GMT
#668
I tried out the devolution 6m 1hyg map and made a 1 rax fe build that works out really nicely for any terran players wanting somthing to start off of and to play arouned with. Everything works out well and switching to 6m 1hyg was prety ez for me as you only need to take out 1 rax is 6/8=3/4. i added the gases earlier then i would normaly because you spend less getting both up as your saving 75min and 3 scv

edit: another thing to note is that supply depot building is very smooth, as your only building 1 until you start getting medivacs, which works out realy well. Its like 6m 1hyg was really meant for sc2! In t's case imo

replay: http://drop.sc/135651
vvvgaming.com @vVv_WaKa http://www.facebook.com/#!/vVvWaKai http://www.twitch.tv/vvvwakai
BadBinky
Profile Blog Joined May 2004
Finland649 Posts
March 18 2012 05:11 GMT
#669
I played some games on 6m1hyg and it was really fun ^^
I uploaded Replays for the bored people!
It's more important to be tough than to have any fun.
BadBinky
Profile Blog Joined May 2004
Finland649 Posts
March 18 2012 05:14 GMT
#670
On March 18 2012 14:10 WaKai wrote:
I tried out the devolution 6m 1hyg map and made a 1 rax fe build that works out really nicely for any terran players wanting somthing to start off of and to play arouned with. Everything works out well and switching to 6m 1hyg was prety ez for me as you only need to take out 1 rax is 6/8=3/4. i added the gases earlier then i would normaly because you spend less getting both up as your saving 75min and 3 scv

edit: another thing to note is that supply depot building is very smooth, as your only building 1 until you start getting medivacs, which works out realy well. Its like 6m 1hyg was really meant for sc2! In t's case imo

replay: http://drop.sc/135651

Why are you playing alone? lol
It's more important to be tough than to have any fun.
WaKai
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada88 Posts
March 18 2012 05:14 GMT
#671
On March 18 2012 14:11 BadBinky wrote:
I played some games on 6m1hyg and it was really fun ^^
I uploaded Replays for the bored people!

I'm making a channel to find people to make games, just look up the type of map exp:

6m1hyg

vvvgaming.com @vVv_WaKa http://www.facebook.com/#!/vVvWaKai http://www.twitch.tv/vvvwakai
WaKai
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada88 Posts
March 18 2012 05:15 GMT
#672
On March 18 2012 14:14 BadBinky wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 18 2012 14:10 WaKai wrote:
I tried out the devolution 6m 1hyg map and made a 1 rax fe build that works out really nicely for any terran players wanting somthing to start off of and to play arouned with. Everything works out well and switching to 6m 1hyg was prety ez for me as you only need to take out 1 rax is 6/8=3/4. i added the gases earlier then i would normaly because you spend less getting both up as your saving 75min and 3 scv

edit: another thing to note is that supply depot building is very smooth, as your only building 1 until you start getting medivacs, which works out realy well. Its like 6m 1hyg was really meant for sc2! In t's case imo

replay: http://drop.sc/135651

Why are you playing alone? lol


nobody is interested, waste of time for them lol
forever alone level: 6g1hyg map
vvvgaming.com @vVv_WaKa http://www.facebook.com/#!/vVvWaKai http://www.twitch.tv/vvvwakai
BadBinky
Profile Blog Joined May 2004
Finland649 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-18 05:17:41
March 18 2012 05:17 GMT
#673
I guess that's why your builds work out nicely :D
My builds don't
It's more important to be tough than to have any fun.
WaKai
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada88 Posts
March 18 2012 05:18 GMT
#674
On March 18 2012 14:17 BadBinky wrote:
I guess that's why your builds work out nicely :D
My builds don't


lol
you down for a few games?
vvvgaming.com @vVv_WaKa http://www.facebook.com/#!/vVvWaKai http://www.twitch.tv/vvvwakai
Sambobly
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia241 Posts
March 18 2012 05:19 GMT
#675
I've played about 5 games on the 6m1hyg map Devolution. The games were quite fun and definitely had a different feel to normal ladder games. However, I think people are jumping to conclusions about this idea fixing all problems with sc2 without proper testing. It's still not clear what these problems are. The game is currently in a reasonable postion with regards to gameplay and balance, so I would be wary of throwing away two years of progress for unproven benefits. I know people will argue that HOTS will require rebalancing so the change may be implemented then, but the less changes made to the game the quicker a stable/macro-oriented game can develop which is what I think most people want. Those are just my thoughts though.
WaKai
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada88 Posts
March 18 2012 05:21 GMT
#676
On March 18 2012 14:19 Sambobly wrote:
I've played about 5 games on the 6m1hyg map Devolution. The games were quite fun and definitely had a different feel to normal ladder games. However, I think people are jumping to conclusions about this idea fixing all problems with sc2 without proper testing. It's still not clear what these problems are. The game is currently in a reasonable postion with regards to gameplay and balance, so I would be wary of throwing away two years of progress for unproven benefits. I know people will argue that HOTS will require rebalancing so the change may be implemented then, but the less changes made to the game the quicker a stable/macro-oriented game can develop which is what I think most people want. Those are just my thoughts though.


go back and read the full op please, he explains and rebuttals both sides all of what you just said
vvvgaming.com @vVv_WaKa http://www.facebook.com/#!/vVvWaKai http://www.twitch.tv/vvvwakai
DoDonPachi
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada69 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-18 05:48:15
March 18 2012 05:46 GMT
#677
On March 18 2012 11:57 whatthefat wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

Having watched and played several games on these maps yesterday and today, I'd like to summarize my thoughts at this stage.

At my level (high diamond), I feel like the character of the game is not immensely different. I mean, the timings are wonky and it takes much longer to reach max, but it's still essentially still one large army slamming into another at some point.

However, I did get to watch some master level games yesterday, and I've included a battle report below for a particularly entertaining game between BlingLing (T) and babysimba (Z) that I think showcases the potential for this change. (Thanks to both players for such a fun game!)

babysimba opened with a 15 hatch, while BlingLing went 14 CC.

[image loading]

On spotting the CC, babysimba made the excellent decision to take a third before pool.

[image loading]

With both players beginning to macro up, BlingLing pushed into the Zerg natural with a handful of marines off two barracks. With some good marine control, he managed to inflict some minor damage, killing a morphing spine, killing 4 lings, and getting home with his damaged marines. However, he did not spot the Zerg third.

[image loading]

BlingLing teched to siege tanks and threw down two more barracks. He also added a couple of missile turrets, possibly fearing 8 minute mutas (which are quite frightening if Zerg takes both high yield gases quickly). However, babysimba had delayed Lair in favor of droning and amassing lings. With map control established, babysimba teched to infestors, while Blingling took the gasless third.

With a medivac out, BlingLing pushed across the map.

[image loading]

Baneling nest was complete, but not baneling speed. babysimba did a reasonable job of cleaning up the pressure, but some cute drop micro and excellent tank spread ensured the Terran forces did some damage.

[image loading]

While this engagement was playing out, both players had taken their fourth bases, and Zerg had started a Hive, and amassed a good group of infestors. At the 15 minute mark, both players were around 130 supply. You might note this is a little low given the appearance of the minimap, with both players comfortably on 4 bases, Zerg on Hive tech, and Terran taking a fifth. This is of course a direct effect of the reduced mineral patches.

[image loading]

At this point, things started to get very interesting. Both players began to split their main army into small hit squads, each trying to take advantage of the other's distributed bases. Simultaneous engagements occurred in the chokepoint to Terran's natural, and along the bottom path of the map.

[image loading]

In the meantime, BlingLing snuck 4 marines into the Zerg third to pick off creep tumors, while babysimba pushed back into the Terran chokepoint with a group of lings.

[image loading]

With the dust barely settled on that skirmish, another began below, with babysimba using some clever burrow tactics to ambush and fungal a group of marines.

[image loading]

At the 18 minute mark, Zerg decided it was time to spend his huge bank, and dumped it into 7 ultralisks, bringing both players to about 150 supply.

Terran next attempted a drop on the Zerg fifth. It was quickly spotted, but the distraction allowed BlingLing to move into a strong highground position, cutting off Zerg's sixth. Considering the position too tenuous, he unsieged and maneuvered this force to rejoin his main army.

[image loading]

Terran's macro was now starting to pull slightly ahead, with a supply lead of about 30. That might sound really bad for a Zerg in a ZvT. But in this reduced resource version of the game, falling behind in supply does not seem to be quite as grim. From my limited experience, there seem to be more opportunities to pull oneself back into the game now that the macro moves at along at a more reasonable pace.

With both armies jockeying for position in the middle, Terran dropped the Zerg seventh and sent another two hit squads to simultaneously attack Zerg's third and sixth bases. As these distractions pulled the Zerg forces away from the center, Terran pushed ever closer to the Zerg natural.

[image loading]

As Zerg cleared up the multiple harassments, Terran attempted to reposition his army to higher ground. But the Zerg forces were able to intercept before the tanks were sieged.

[image loading]

While Zerg was able to take out several siege tanks, the ultralisks had insufficient support and melted under the marine fire.

Terran immediately sent a small group to deny any further attempts to expand to the top of the map, while pulling back his main force to consolidate his lead.

[image loading]

In response, Zerg counter-attacked Terran's south-most base.

[image loading]

Without infestor support, Terran's marines were able to clean up the attack, with Zerg trading reasonably.

[image loading]

Zerg's economy was now crippled, with Terran taking an annoying position behind the mineral line at Zerg's fifth base. However, Terran was down to 34 SCVs, and Zerg had cleverly blocked Terran's main mining base with a burrowed zergling.

[image loading]
[image loading]

Seeing a chance to equalize, Zerg pushed through the center with ultralisks supported by infestors, reducing both players to 140 supply.

[image loading]

Both players were fighting valiantly, seemingly able to just continue fighting indefinitely all over the map. The amount of action had naturally disrupted Zerg's macro, however, and he did not have enough larvae to spend his bank of 1300 minerals and 1300 gas before the next engagement.

With the game now in a delicate state of balance, BlingLing was able to clear up the remaining ultralisks, and catch the vital infestors out of position before they could escape.

[image loading]

With BlingLing in a commanding position, babysimba was forced to gg.

[image loading]

Those of us observing were extremely impressed, and grateful to the players for putting on such a good show.



Dude, you can't post such a incredible game without sending the replay Please i would love to watch this game, link the replay
i'll schroumpfs you until you GG
Sambobly
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia241 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-18 06:05:53
March 18 2012 05:59 GMT
#678
go back and read the full op please, he explains and rebuttals both sides all of what you just said

I've read the full op. He didn't rebut the point I made, it wasn't brought up. I said that I'm concerned about throwing away 2 years of balancing for no certain benefit. The op discusses concerns about balance in the new set up, saying that people shouldn't say it won't work because it is imbalanced. I'm not saying it is inherrently imbalanced and won't work, it might. What I'm trying to say is that I don't want to spend another two years getting the game balanced again just to test whether this economy set up makes for better games. It is entirely possible that this is a better economy set up than the current 8m2g, but we don't know that. I'm merely advising caution.

As an aside, the idea of show matches played on this map is an interesting one that should be explored.
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-18 06:08:12
March 18 2012 06:07 GMT
#679
--- Nuked ---
babysimba
Profile Joined November 2010
10466 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-18 06:27:46
March 18 2012 06:10 GMT
#680
On March 18 2012 02:36 babysimba wrote:
Here's my input after playing 2 zvt games on the 6m1hyg map with the desert tile.

Yes the game involves more small-scaled battle, but its impossible to balance 6m map with the current set of WoL units. Hellions force too much mineral investment in defence compared to the amt. of minerals we can mine. Can't produce enough lings to spread thin for both defence and attack. Bunker and medivac with marines are too cost effective. Terran is comfortable with 3 bases + mules, but its ridiculously hard for a zerg to defend 4th with drops going everywhere.

If any changes occur, it definitely has to wait for the next expansion. It would be fine with zerg can operate similarly to bw zerg with cost efficient gas units to defend chokes and some cost efficient anti-air, then stay on the defensive til high tech units are out. Right now, zerg needs to be aggressive but they are unable to do so.

Maybe the 7m maps play out differently though, i haven't played them yet.


My previous posts regarding the game. I tried going mutas instead of infestors in the 2nd game. Mutas just don't cut it. No army firepower, not enough lings to counter-attack and spread thin for defence.

That being said, i hope to get a chance to play on a different map. The map really sucks for zerg. It plays out similarly to dual sight in late game but without the vulnerabilities on the natural and third. Terrans only need to guard 1 major chokepoint to defend 3 bases? Getting a 4th&abv is pretty ridiculous considering the rush distances. 2 xelnega towers cover the only 2 main chokepoints in the middle. Free cliff for tank drop near 3rd and rocks blocking between 3rd and 4th. Tons of chokepoints leading to the rest of the expansions but i have no lurkers T.T
PLEASE DON'T PUT ANY ROCKS that block pathways defensively. You already have less units than normal. You want players to utilise units to attack, not waste time attacking a useless rock. Rocks that open up new routes offensively in the middle of the map are viable though.

Edit: Oh and the replays for those interested =) http://drop.sc/135665 http://drop.sc/135666
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