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Northern Ireland461 Posts
On January 22 2013 22:08 KAB00000000M wrote:
"Can you prevent your opponent from breaking his D key after defending his roaches attack?"
Can someone explain what this meant? I don't understand. (Taken from the white diagram above)
Prevent Zerg from Droning hard after he has commited larvae to roaches (DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD)
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On January 22 2013 22:20 mau5mat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 22:08 KAB00000000M wrote:
"Can you prevent your opponent from breaking his D key after defending his roaches attack?"
Can someone explain what this meant? I don't understand. (Taken from the white diagram above) Prevent Zerg from Droning hard after he has commited larvae to roaches (DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD)
Thanks
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I usually just do 2 blind thors because I have a hard time reading mutas from 3 hatch zerg, any tips on how to see it coming before that point?
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On January 23 2013 03:58 gillon wrote:
I usually just do 2 blind thors because I have a hard time reading mutas from 3 hatch zerg, any tips on how to see it coming before that point?
Check gases, lair timing, and how many drones he has. Obviously, lower drones, earlier gas, lair are hints at mutas. You can also consider how many roaches he's made, which will delay his muta timing (or at least reduce the muta count from 10 to like 6).
if he's on 3 hatch without many drones, it's likely mutas, but if he's powering drones on 3 hatch (basically he won't have early 4 gas then), it's most likely not mutas at ~11 minutes
Also spines can hint at mutas, to protect from hellion suicides (which hurt a lot if he's getting gas like for mutas instead of getting like 80 drone count), whereas with Infestors he has his units at home.
Remember you always have the choice to scan his base (of course, scout his bases with your banshees first, then if there's only, for example, one spot left to check, you can scan once to know, unless you think he hid the spire on the map somewhere).
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Hihi!~
Um diddly dm, I came up with a tvz mech build that i'm working on ^_^;
It's ah very general but here you go
1rax FE->double gas
3rd CC
fac when money & then a second one
reactor on first fac, tech lab on second (Blueflame research quick-quick)
add 2starports when money while making hellions
Techlab first port right away, make viking out of the second one before tech lab
Corvid reactor then constant raven/hellion expand while taking third+adding more factories
Goal is!~
hellion harass a lot since you can make a lot while leaving ravens at home to get phat energy.
Ravens give safety against mutas or roach timing thanks to ATurrets (vs muta) which can buy time for thors/missile turrets or HSM vs roaches ^_^
Also are able to accumulate a lot of high energy ravens for a timing attack or to kill dem broodlords very easy, instead of trying to buy time while building up raven/viking fleet!:D
so yeah 
Willhave replays um.... soon(tm) :3
am only in high dia so this probably isn't a very good build really xddd
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On January 24 2013 11:09 GTPGlitch wrote:Hihi!~ Um diddly dm, I came up with a tvz mech build that i'm working on ^_^; It's ah very general but here you go 1rax FE->double gas 3rd CC fac when money & then a second one reactor on first fac, tech lab on second (Blueflame research quick-quick) add 2starports when money while making hellions Techlab first port right away, make viking out of the second one before tech lab Corvid reactor then constant raven/hellion expand while taking third+adding more factories Goal is!~ hellion harass a lot since you can make a lot while leaving ravens at home to get phat energy. Ravens give safety against mutas or roach timing thanks to ATurrets (vs muta) which can buy time for thors/missile turrets or HSM vs roaches ^_^ Also are able to accumulate a lot of high energy ravens for a timing attack or to kill dem broodlords very easy, instead of trying to buy time while building up raven/viking fleet!:D so yeah Willhave replays um.... soon(tm) :3 am only in high dia so this probably isn't a very good build really xddd
Why not make 3rd CC before 2x gas?
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On January 24 2013 21:35 KAB00000000M wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 11:09 GTPGlitch wrote:Hihi!~ Um diddly dm, I came up with a tvz mech build that i'm working on ^_^; It's ah very general but here you go 1rax FE->double gas 3rd CC fac when money & then a second one reactor on first fac, tech lab on second (Blueflame research quick-quick) add 2starports when money while making hellions Techlab first port right away, make viking out of the second one before tech lab Corvid reactor then constant raven/hellion expand while taking third+adding more factories Goal is!~ hellion harass a lot since you can make a lot while leaving ravens at home to get phat energy. Ravens give safety against mutas or roach timing thanks to ATurrets (vs muta) which can buy time for thors/missile turrets or HSM vs roaches ^_^ Also are able to accumulate a lot of high energy ravens for a timing attack or to kill dem broodlords very easy, instead of trying to buy time while building up raven/viking fleet!:D so yeah Willhave replays um.... soon(tm) :3 am only in high dia so this probably isn't a very good build really xddd Why not make 3rd CC before 2x gas?
I dunno ^^
So that you are on way to facs before you get the third to reduce window of vulnerability, i think ^^^^;
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On January 22 2013 22:08 KAB00000000M wrote:
"Can you prevent your opponent from breaking his D key after defending his roaches attack?"
Can someone explain what this meant?
Zerg in all its splendor.
On January 22 2013 15:46 Nightmarjoo wrote:
In the games I'm talking about, Gumiho is going mech! Why is this so hard to believe? In one particular gstl match where he all-killed he used this build on atlantis and won; and then used the same build against another zerg in the same match and won again.
I have no problems believing it, I said Bomber was going Marines/Tanks after such openings. Didn't see the games so I can't judge how/why he did those builds, but don't hide behind the “Well, GuMiho used it!” argument: even pros can't turn lead into gold. Those builds have major drawbacks; I don't need to recap them since you acknowledge them.
We are discussing CC first here, not 1rax CC!
You are the one sticking to “I discuss CC first only,” I made the distinction between 1 rax expand and CC first in my answers.
Or... he can continue to use the build which has a very significant economic advantage to 1rax cc (faster 3rd and higher scv count or faster banshee, depending on the gas timing after 1rax cc) and simply heed my advice which is tailored to this build, NOT 1rax cc!
Funny; you talk about a systematic 6'30 scan (one MULE = 15% of your mineral income at this time), then proceed to praise CC first's superior economy?
CC rax gas will have a hard time against certain early attacks regardless of what you do (except maybe make your Bunker behind your main's wall and evacuate at the first sign of Roaches; for Speedlings there is no time): Hellions are a bit delayed and Marauder does not come before 6'45 at best [no scout + 4 close patches maps, so add 10-20 seconds with suboptimal mineral patches and/or SCV scouting], therefore both the SCV scout and the 6'30 scans are actually irrelevant: you choose to go blind Marauder or not; and even if you do, with most builds Roaches are in your natural before your Marauder has time to rally the Bunker so it's still awkward. Moral of the story, go 1 rax expand if you face a lot of agressive openings instead of trying to get 3 extra SCVs and ending up with 5-10 less (plus wasting a Scan: big deal to see the Roach Warren 5 seconds before Roaches enter your natural) because of the vulnerability of the opening.
What sacrifice? If your scv is in his main by 3:00 (which is when I recommended) you can scout everything, leave, and then dip right back in and get out before queens are up yet, baiting him to gas the moment you leave.
Sacrifice if you later check his third then head towards his natural.
Propose how you can possibly see a spire in time to adapt if you find out he went 2base mutalisk is when your banshee arrives (which should arrive shortly before his mutalisks hatch) if you aren't scanning at 6:30 (which is when your port is ~50% done).
? Starport is complete at 6'30, even with CC rax gas.
I don't wait my Banshee to scout… As soon as my Hellions are there, I scout if he has a third or not then poke his natural's front; assuming he has a wall—otherwise you just beep and zoom towards his main and scout everything—his wall + front tells you a lot. For instance, respectively for the fastest 2-bases Lairs and the regular ones, you will see:
- no creep spread, Spine and single low-energy Queen in wall → supersonic/fast Lair (i. e. between 4'30 and 5'30 depending on whether he went Lair or Metabolic Boost → Lair, which means Mutalisks hatch between 8' and 9'). You try to force the wall and see what comes/lies behind: if Roaches you can rule out Mutalisks, if nothing or Zerglings the odds of Mutalisks are very high; can still be 2-bases Infestors but it's not a major threat anyway.
- some creep spread, 2 or more Queens in wall, dual Evolution Chamber in most cases → standard Lair (i. e. between 6' and 7', which means Mutalisks hatch between 9'30 and 10'30) → scout first units → if Zerglings confirm with Banshee(s) or if needed a Scan which building he's getting (Spire or Infest pit).
There are other variants, e. g. 3 Queens + Speedlings, but the scouting process is the same anyway. Hellions/Banshees openings have no particular trouble against 2-bases Mutalisks, it's a matter of scouting and transition. The fastest Lairs are really obvious and Mutalisks can't be in your base before 8'30 so there is ample time to react after Hellions poke his front.
The difference is, (1) instead of having a starport whose only value is in making addons and possibly a banshee you cannot get any utility out of for most of the game in addition; you have a second factory with a techlab on it to get blueflame while you make your armory and can begin 2thor production to defend the mutas (AND secure your 3rd, which 1fact thor production can't as effectively do) sooner than you could than if you had wasted money on your port. (2) The difference is you have blueflame hellions instead of regular hellions, so the small number you have after switching to thor production are more effective if you can get them around his mutalisks.
(1) Quite on the contrary Vikings come in handy against Mutalisks, nicely supporting Turrets and Thors to kick out Mutalisks: Turrets are immobile, Thors are semi-mobile and Vikings are mobile, so they can act as a relay when your Thors are out of position. Besides, since Zerg is forced to be cautious and use magix box they're actually more efficient than Thors for cost/supply: for 200 gas and 6 supply with a Thor you get 16 dps against Mutalisks in magic box, for 75 gas and 2 supply you get 10 dps with a Viking. Of course in a vacuum Mutalisks would simply charge and kill them, but since you have Thors nearby they can't do that: if they right click your Vikings they clump and the sanction from Thors' splash is immediate. Even more importantly, they free up Factory production time so you can make Tanks earlier. I'm not talking about many Vikings, just 2-3 should do in most cases. A single Raven can also help with all its spells. Starport is not useless at all against Mutalisks.
(2) 100% of the Zergs I faced immediately switched to Roaches upon scouting I was going mech with their 2-bases Mutalisks, so BFH will make no difference against those, nor does it allow you to kill a Hatchery faster.
The scenario I'm concerned about is hellion/banshee vs 2base muta. All other possibilities are easily handled by hellion/banshee-- I've stated this already. The scenario with hellion/banshee vs 2base muta is one where they can start their 3rd hatch right before they start mutalisk production which you cannot in the least contest because of their impending mutalisks.
You cannot contest Zerg's third since May 2012 the 10th, 2 Factories makes zero difference in this regard.
Furthermore you cannot expand yourself at this time because you're making an armory, thors, and possibly also turrets
? I start my third around 7'30 regardless.
This means you cannot take your third until you have the anti-air capacity to defend 3 bases (which is more than 3 spots-- thor range is not THAT long).
This accomplishes having faster thor production which enables you to secure your 3rd much earlier, while also giving you potential harass-potential in the form of blueflame hellions. You don't even have to make the blueflame early if you don't want to.
Never had any particular trouble securing my third with only 2 Thors, and possibly 1-2 Viking(s) and sometimes a Raven: once you have 2 Turrets per mineral line and 1-2 at key points (wall, production), you take all your anti-air (Marines included) and establish your third, i. e. you need to stay 25 seconds there until your Turrets are complete and voilà. If you somehow made your third directly on its location you just build Turrets directly there with a Bunker for your Marines (not against super fast Lairs obviously).
(1)With a slower 3rd base your economy and production capacity are relatively poor, (2) making contesting his 4th base very difficult, if not impossible, as well. This means he has map control, an economic advantage, and you are stuck in a defensive posture.
(1) Which is precisely why 2 Factories is inferior to Hellions/Banshees.
(2) What do you mean with “contesting his fourth”? If you take your third he can take your fourth and you can't do anything about it; if you refer to some kind of 4-6 Thors push with repairing SCVs and Hellions they're bad and coinflippy: Zerg makes Roaches and bash you (Maru vs Life, Whirlwind, IPTL ST vs Prime; not 100% sure but I think a similar thing happened in Mvp vs Life, Daybreak, Code S Season 4 finals).
Hence instead of risking this scenario as a possibility, I am advising adapting your build preemptively by going 2fact instead of banshee.
You're not adapting your build at all because by the time you make your second Factory instead of a Starport, you have zero way to know if he's going Mutalisks. Zero. Scouting gas/gasless with your SCV makes no difference in this regard.
(1) Remember 2nd fact, armory, and thors delay your cc relative to the normal timing. So if you already have your 2nd fact by the time you scout mutalisks you have 2 thors out 120 seconds later. Your thor timing is such that you don't need turrets to merely defend 2base (while you're making 3rd cc), which means if you don't get blueflame your 3rd cc is at least 500 minerals earlier (port, banshee, 2turrets), (2) which means you can easily take it the moment you have 4 thors (180 seconds after scouting mutalisk)
(1) Didn't understand, sorry. Can you list the build order you would use ideally, with the timing of the third and the Armory?
(2) Blindly making 4 Thors without first checking if he keeps producing Mutalisks is not a good idea and will make you auto-lose against any massive Roach switch to attack your third, especially if you do not have some Banshees in advance. See Mvp vs Vortix, Daybreak, IEM Cologne VII: Mvp opens 2 Factories BFH, inflicts zero damage, builds 6 Thors against Mutalisks and proceeds to get stomped by Mutalisks/Roaches because he has no Tanks ready. Same thing also happened to Supernova against Vortix, Ohana, Quarterfinals IEM Cologne VII: his Tanks were too late so his Hellions/Thors/Banshees mix was swept away by Mutalisks/Roaches/Banelings; overreacting with Thors is a sure way to lose against Zerg because of the Roach. See Flash vs ViBe, Daybreak, MvP Invitational: Flash first makes 3 Thors (because it's Daybreak and ViBe was on 3 bases), then makes Tanks, then resumes Thor production upon scouting ViBe made additional Mutalisks. If Zerg opens 2-bases Mutalisks (which means 7-11 Mutalisks in most cases) there is no reason to get 4 Thors immediately, it just opens a window of vulnerability against the standard Roach switch. We're talking about 2-bases Mutalisks, so 15 Mutalisks at once are out of question.
An air unit that in the scenario I'm concerned about is unlikely to be useful again, if it even makes it home alive, for a very long time. I'd rather not waste the time and money on it-- again focusing on being efficient.
Why do you act as if the Banshee had no use before Mutalisks hatch?
I think mech's efficiency combined with good control of the ghost/thor I'm advising making in conjunction with smart decision making can overcome such a defecit should it happen. I'm not surprised what I describe wouldn't be the case with tank/viking oriented compositions though; since you have less gas and supply for useful and efficient lategame units such as ghosts and ravens.
Mech's efficiency? What about Broodlords/Corruptors/Infestors/Queens' efficiency? When you're behind you lose 95+% of the time against this composition, even against inferior opponents, and mech is no exception; I don't think there's any need to argue about this as it has been proven countless times the past few months. And it's not a matter of unit composition (Ghosts are impossible to tech when you're behind by the way; just like Ravens, you lose in the process): whatever you do, if you have not enough resources (time/gas) to deal with it, you perish miserably.
Thors/Ghosts are toast as soon as Zerg gets 10-15+ Broodlords; not 100% sure but I think BaBy/TY vs soO, Entombed Valley, MvP Invitational Playoffs featured this, the last fight between Thors/Ghosts/Vikings and Broodlords/Corruptors/Infestors was not even close. BaBy should have made Ravens of course, but the game (unless I'm wrong and it's another) illustrates how Thors/Ghosts simply melts inefficiently to high Broodlords counts. As the Broodlord count increases ground units are drowned and can't reach their target… except Tanks because they have 13 range and Infestors need to come in range to cast Fungals on your air. Upgraded Thors are OK against unupgraded Broodlords in low numbers with little support but as the game drags on they become horrible.
Honestly I don't see why you would tech Ghosts (who require time and expensive infrastructure) along with mech: Tanks are much better to deal with Infestors (way more reliable and not unidimensional), and why would you invest in several Ghost Academies and Nukes (which cost gas) when you can distract Zerg and kill Drones with BFH raids?
As far as economy goes I don't see how a 2fact opening is any different from a banshee opening. Instead of port, banshee, cloak, you're getting fact, blueflame, and a couple hellions prior to starting 3rd cc.
Already stated why: if you stick to the original plan you get your third later, because you make more Hellions and you're supposed to get a Starport in order to drop BFH should your attack be blocked. Even if you skip the Starport you can't have a 7'30 third with continuous Hellion production or Tanks + Siege. Mvp started his third at 9'00 against Life in their first game.
As for your chart: after you defend his roaches easily with your hellions + a couple marauders you can harass his drones with hellions if he has not made a ton of roaches. If he has, then he hasn't made as many drones; and even a banshee build would be concerned with the roaches than with harassing drones in that case.
Usually most of the Roaches are already dead by the time the Banshee is out (Zerg sacrifices them for SCVs), they just help against heavier commitment (if he makes 10+ or rallies Zerglings) or if he chooses to contain your natural's mineral line rather than trying to destroy your Bunker.
Counter-attacking with Marauders? A possibility for sure, but watch GuMiho vs Revival, Metropolis, IPTL FXO vs EG to see how good it is; notice how GuMiho loses 13 SCVs despite going Marauders, then tries to counter but can't do anything because Revival just remade some Roaches after 10 Drones. Now compare with ForGG vs Stephano, Metropolis, Dreamhack Valencia [game starts at 22'20], and see how Banshees allow ForGG to break through Stephano's defence, bringing down some Queens, forcing the wall to open the way for Hellions and dealing a lot of uncontested damage. Of course Stephano was too light on his defence, but precisely Banshees force Zerg to allocate more resources to his defence (else he risks to lose immediately), not to mention the possibility to safely deny a morphing third.
I'm not sure how you think zerg is going to take advantage of your build after scouting it; you can easily adapt to whatever he does unless he's 3hatch on 2base, in which case it doesn't even matter.
+ Show Spoiler +On November 13 2012 09:13 Ver wrote:
If in the GSL finals life did fast third/6 queen and ovie scouted every game Mvp wouldn't have won a single game, except maybe Abyssal (only because he didn't make broods). Mvp's 2 fact blue flame allin relied on Life not scouting and doing that speedling build. If Life makes 3rd/6 queens and ovie scouts, he sees the build and makes enough roaches to hold while getting full saturation and a huge midgame lead. That's why nobody does that 2 fact build very much anymore and also why Mvp used it almost every game.
Besides, Zerg can contain your third for a long time: even with Tanks, securing your third against 25-30 Speedroaches is really awkward before you have enough Tanks (especially on some maps), and that is a merciful answer; if Zerg feels like bashing you straight away he can go Roaches drops, and good luck defending this without any Banshee in advance.
If you hold a roach/bane all-in his expo is slow and he has no means with which to stop you from expoing afterwards (somewhat map dependant).
You're not in a bad spot after holding his Roach Baneling bust, of course; but he does have the right to play a macro game afterwards, albeit in an inferior position obviously. See Bomber vs Stephano, Antiga (first series), Lone Star Clash II; Bomber vs Symbol, Ohana and Cloud Kingdom, IPL5; Bomber vs sLivko, Ohana, IPL5; Bomber vs Sniper, Whirlwind, Code S RO32: in all those games Bomber defends a Roach/Bane bust, sometimes with very little damage, yet since his build is passive (early Tanks except for the sLivko game in which he had gone bio) he cannot push back. If you defend with Marauders and/or Tanks you run into the same problem. With Hellions/Banshees there is none of this; no potentially long, drawn-out game in which you have to constantly avoid the usual pitfalls to win: you counter-attack and bash him, or you cripple him to such an extent that you're light years ahead and win with little effort (e. g. Flash vs Sheth, Daybreak, MvP Invitational).
On January 23 2013 03:58 gillon wrote:
I usually just do 2 blind thors because I have a hard time reading mutas from 3 hatch zerg, any tips on how to see it coming before that point?
Scout a Spire; no other way.
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Such a long post I'm really interested in.
Dwf can you please show more some games where that Helions banshee build has been played perfectly against Zerg ? I'd appreciate it
Thanks
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How to kill a meching Terran? I use bio but it just feels so one sided, once they put up turret rings it is impossible to drop, so I have to go head on. And with that....its hard because tanks do tons of dmg and hellions are decent meat shield too...
I feel like I have to outplay my meching opponent by A LOT if I want to have a chance at winning.
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On January 26 2013 17:51 dynwar7 wrote:
How to kill a meching Terran? I use bio but it just feels so one sided, once they put up turret rings it is impossible to drop, so I have to go head on. And with that....its hard because tanks do tons of dmg and hellions are decent meat shield too...
I feel like I have to outplay my meching opponent by A LOT if I want to have a chance at winning.
Personally i've seen a lot of bio->skio switches in the lategame, which usually works really well if you've been just getting medivacs for most of the game.
The general idea (imo) is to lure the meching player into only making 6-12 vikings max since bio relies heavily on medivac count and won't challenge for air superiority, and then use small trades to get a superior viking count +ravens/BCs and then using air superiority to push back the mech lines and give more opportunity for marauders to be cost effective by forcing the mech player to unsiege more until they get sufficient turrets/vikings/thors up to stop the BC's from tearing through their army.
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Hellion banshee seems to be a good way to transition into mech in all match-ups.
I generally try to harass and contain as long as possible while taking an aggressive 3rd.
I find it difficult to transition into mech unless I buy large amount of time by forcing a defensive stance.
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Any other ideas to kill mech using bio without transitioning to late game air?
I want to utilize nukes, but it is...extremely difficult.
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On January 26 2013 16:48 foxj wrote:
Such a long post I'm really interested in.
Dwf can you please show more some games where that Helions banshee build has been played perfectly against Zerg ? I'd appreciate it
Thanks
What do you mean with “played perfectly”?
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On January 28 2013 05:51 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2013 16:48 foxj wrote:
Such a long post I'm really interested in.
Dwf can you please show more some games where that Helions banshee build has been played perfectly against Zerg ? I'd appreciate it
Thanks What do you mean with “played perfectly”?
I mean when the Terrans executed the build against Zerg without trouble from Zerg aggressive or all-ins like roachs banes ... Maybe " prefect " isn't the right word, just the build worked smoothly on Terran side. I don't have really know many vods games for this build.
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On January 28 2013 20:15 foxj wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2013 05:51 TheDwf wrote:On January 26 2013 16:48 foxj wrote:
Such a long post I'm really interested in.
Dwf can you please show more some games where that Helions banshee build has been played perfectly against Zerg ? I'd appreciate it
Thanks What do you mean with “played perfectly”? I mean when the Terrans executed the build against Zerg without trouble from Zerg aggressive or all-ins like roachs banes ... Maybe " prefect " isn't the right word, just the build worked smoothly on Terran side. I don't have really know many vods games for this build.
Alive Terious Whirlwind 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac
Flash Sheth Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+ Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac
Happy J Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac
Happy gowser Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac
Happy Lowely Ohana LE No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac
Happy Lowely Antiga Shipyard No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac
Happy KDY Antiga Shipyard No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac
Happy KDY No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac
Lucifron Lowely Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac
Lucifron Vortix Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac
Lucifron Vortix Entombed Valley 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac
Lucifron Stephano Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac
Major Hyun Ohana No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac
Mvp Min Antiga Shipyard 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac
Mvp Sniper Entombey Valley 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac
Mvp Targa Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac
Mvp Nestea Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac
Mvp Vortix Ohana 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac
Mvp Nerchio Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac
Mvp Suhoshin Atlantic Shipyard No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac
PuMa ret Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac
PuMa DRG Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac
PuMa Violet Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac
PuMa Cytoplasm Cloud Kingdom No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac
PuMa Tristan Atlantic Shipyard No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac
Supernova Vortix Ohana 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac
Supernova Vortix Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac
Supernova Hyun Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac
Bogus SoO No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac
Thorzain Violet Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac
Marineking Scarlet Cloud Kingdom No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac
hope this not too confusing.. if you have problems to read it let me know it i will help. it's my game overview with all reactor hellion+banshee+2 Armory builds.
hf with analyzing them !
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i want to know your thoughts about the following things:
Do you recommend a fast 3rd CC build if you play mech in TvT and TvZ?
I recognized that many terrans go for a early third cc like flash with CC first followed by a additonal CC after the rax or Baby with CC first and Reactor Hellion FE. I'm not sure what i think about that. I mean if i go mech i need gas because thats the limiting factor and if i get a early third i have to spread my units to defend every possible angle and thats really hard against roach attacks in TvZ and Bio Timings in TvT. In fact i wonder why some top terrans go fast 3rd Base when they go for mech, because they can not defend it properly. Why don't they play like CC and then push units and get their third when they are able to defend it properly (in most cases after the Banshee and not before).
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On January 29 2013 07:30 saaaa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2013 20:15 foxj wrote:On January 28 2013 05:51 TheDwf wrote:On January 26 2013 16:48 foxj wrote:
Such a long post I'm really interested in.
Dwf can you please show more some games where that Helions banshee build has been played perfectly against Zerg ? I'd appreciate it
Thanks What do you mean with “played perfectly”? I mean when the Terrans executed the build against Zerg without trouble from Zerg aggressive or all-ins like roachs banes ... Maybe " prefect " isn't the right word, just the build worked smoothly on Terran side. I don't have really know many vods games for this build. Alive Terious Whirlwind 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Flash Sheth Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+ Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy J Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy gowser Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy Lowely Ohana LE No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy Lowely Antiga Shipyard No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy KDY Antiga Shipyard No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy KDY No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Lucifron Lowely Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Lucifron Vortix Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Lucifron Vortix Entombed Valley 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Lucifron Stephano Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Major Hyun Ohana No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Min Antiga Shipyard 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Sniper Entombey Valley 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Targa Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Nestea Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Vortix Ohana 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Nerchio Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Suhoshin Atlantic Shipyard No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac PuMa ret Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac PuMa DRG Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac PuMa Violet Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac PuMa Cytoplasm Cloud Kingdom No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac PuMa Tristan Atlantic Shipyard No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Supernova Vortix Ohana 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Supernova Vortix Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Supernova Hyun Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Bogus SoO No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Thorzain Violet Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Marineking Scarlet Cloud Kingdom No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac hope this not too confusing.. if you have problems to read it let me know it i will help. it's my game overview with all reactor hellion+banshee+2 Armory builds. hf with analyzing them !
Wow this is huge .... Thanks you make my day <3 And yeah if it's possible, can you add the tournaments information of those games ? I only know few proleague games
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On January 31 2013 07:00 foxj wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 07:30 saaaa wrote:On January 28 2013 20:15 foxj wrote:On January 28 2013 05:51 TheDwf wrote:On January 26 2013 16:48 foxj wrote:
Such a long post I'm really interested in.
Dwf can you please show more some games where that Helions banshee build has been played perfectly against Zerg ? I'd appreciate it
Thanks What do you mean with “played perfectly”? I mean when the Terrans executed the build against Zerg without trouble from Zerg aggressive or all-ins like roachs banes ... Maybe " prefect " isn't the right word, just the build worked smoothly on Terran side. I don't have really know many vods games for this build. Alive Terious Whirlwind 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Flash Sheth Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+ Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy J Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy gowser Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy Lowely Ohana LE No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy Lowely Antiga Shipyard No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy KDY Antiga Shipyard No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy KDY No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Lucifron Lowely Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Lucifron Vortix Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Lucifron Vortix Entombed Valley 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Lucifron Stephano Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Major Hyun Ohana No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Min Antiga Shipyard 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Sniper Entombey Valley 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Targa Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Nestea Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Vortix Ohana 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Nerchio Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Suhoshin Atlantic Shipyard No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac PuMa ret Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac PuMa DRG Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac PuMa Violet Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac PuMa Cytoplasm Cloud Kingdom No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac PuMa Tristan Atlantic Shipyard No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Supernova Vortix Ohana 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Supernova Vortix Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Supernova Hyun Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Bogus SoO No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Thorzain Violet Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Marineking Scarlet Cloud Kingdom No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac hope this not too confusing.. if you have problems to read it let me know it i will help. it's my game overview with all reactor hellion+banshee+2 Armory builds. hf with analyzing them ! Wow this is huge .... Thanks you make my day <3 And yeah if it's possible, can you add the tournaments information of those games ? I only know few proleague games
http://www.mystarcraft.de/de/edb/
this i a huge and amazing database you should find every game there 
just enter the name of the terran in the right the box with "Spieler suchen" and click hope you will get it even it's german otherwise PM me
hf gl
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On February 01 2013 01:32 saaaa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 07:00 foxj wrote:On January 29 2013 07:30 saaaa wrote:On January 28 2013 20:15 foxj wrote:On January 28 2013 05:51 TheDwf wrote:On January 26 2013 16:48 foxj wrote:
Such a long post I'm really interested in.
Dwf can you please show more some games where that Helions banshee build has been played perfectly against Zerg ? I'd appreciate it
Thanks What do you mean with “played perfectly”? I mean when the Terrans executed the build against Zerg without trouble from Zerg aggressive or all-ins like roachs banes ... Maybe " prefect " isn't the right word, just the build worked smoothly on Terran side. I don't have really know many vods games for this build. Alive Terious Whirlwind 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Flash Sheth Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+ Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy J Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy gowser Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy Lowely Ohana LE No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy Lowely Antiga Shipyard No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy KDY Antiga Shipyard No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy KDY No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Lucifron Lowely Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Lucifron Vortix Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Lucifron Vortix Entombed Valley 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Lucifron Stephano Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Major Hyun Ohana No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Min Antiga Shipyard 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Sniper Entombey Valley 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Targa Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Nestea Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Vortix Ohana 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Nerchio Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Suhoshin Atlantic Shipyard No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac PuMa ret Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac PuMa DRG Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac PuMa Violet Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac PuMa Cytoplasm Cloud Kingdom No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac PuMa Tristan Atlantic Shipyard No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Supernova Vortix Ohana 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Supernova Vortix Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Supernova Hyun Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Bogus SoO No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Thorzain Violet Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Marineking Scarlet Cloud Kingdom No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac hope this not too confusing.. if you have problems to read it let me know it i will help. it's my game overview with all reactor hellion+banshee+2 Armory builds. hf with analyzing them ! Wow this is huge .... Thanks you make my day <3 And yeah if it's possible, can you add the tournaments information of those games ? I only know few proleague games http://www.mystarcraft.de/de/edb/this i a huge and amazing database you should find every game there just enter the name of the terran in the right the box with "Spieler suchen" and click hope you will get it even it's german otherwise PM me hf gl
Wow thanks a lot for this!
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EPT
