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[D] Widow Mine Mechanics - Page 3

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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deth
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Australia1757 Posts
March 18 2013 03:35 GMT
#41
Its your own fault for not expressing yourself clearly at all, making broad untrue statements and then continuing to try and take some sort of high ground when called out for being wrong

i honestly can't comprehend why you continue to express yourself in such a bias, whining, anti blizz and self important fashion every time you're playing horribly or cannot figure out how to use units correctly. its been annoying me for years.
govie
Profile Blog Joined November 2012
9334 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-18 03:40:27
March 18 2013 03:40 GMT
#42
On March 18 2013 12:35 deth wrote:
Its your own fault for not expressing yourself clearly at all, making broad untrue statements and then continuing to try and take some sort of high ground when called out for being wrong

i honestly can't comprehend why you continue to express yourself in such a bias, whining, anti blizz and self important fashion every time you're playing horribly or cannot figure out how to use units correctly. its been annoying me for years.


Ur mood doesnt correspond well with the above statement
The two NBA teams in states with legal weed are called the Nuggets and the Blazers...
Thienan567
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States670 Posts
March 18 2013 03:45 GMT
#43
Of course it wouldn't, avilo calls him out on ad hominem when avilo was basically asking to be ad hominem'd when he absolutely refused to actually address Zelniq.

Anyway.

Widow mines do seem a tad random, or should I say a bit wonky in their controls. Zelniq mentioned a 2 second time window where there's a target but the mine will not fire. Maybe if blizz reduces it to 1 sec it would 'respond better' and seem less random. Or widen the radius a bit.

Tbh it seemed as random as it did in life vs flash because life's lings were so fast. I do remember a game on daybreak where life ran over some planted mines and they only managed to catch the last couple of lings, other times the mines wrecked his mutas. Speed does seem to enter the equation. So I'd declare for now that tanks are still best anti ling aoe because it's hitscan.

also, about the 'hold position' micro. Does anyone know if it works like lurkers did in bw?
TheSwagger
Profile Joined June 2012
United States92 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-18 04:05:48
March 18 2013 04:03 GMT
#44
I did some extensive testing myself, it appears you can right click onto other units with the widow mine and it will *most of the time* execute the performed choice, however, like others have stated; the widow mine does definitely overkill.Also, if you find yourself spamming right click like a mad man between several units they wont engage, which I believe zelniq did specify. That being said if you target one unit with all, they will all attack that one unit and they will ALL be on cooldown. Another thing I had tried is queuing right clicks with the mine, it appears that it will try and attack all the units you right click. There is no clear way to prove this because of matters I explain in a moment. I will say, if this is how they intend a person to control the mine. It is very unintuitive, meaning, it is not explained anywhere, it does not show anything of the sort on the command card, unit information, etc. Not to mention, since theres technically no confirmation, it still feels like you have no complete control of what it attacks. That may be the way they want it, after all.
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.
TheSwagger
Profile Joined June 2012
United States92 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-18 04:24:46
March 18 2013 04:15 GMT
#45
OP updated with more information.


Zelniq, if you have the ability, Maybe update the thread title to "[D][G] Widow Mine Mechanics"?
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.
bakemono
Profile Joined March 2013
11 Posts
March 18 2013 04:34 GMT
#46
Guys - A widow mine costs the same as ONE baneling, 50 for a pair of lings, and 25/25 for the baneling, it does a lot more damage, has a lot more HP, can attack air and ground, and can be used repeatedly.

I think you are expecting too much for such a cheap unit. Life just played very well, you can't expect him to lose all his lings to 1 widow mine.
MstrJinbo
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1251 Posts
March 18 2013 04:35 GMT
#47
On March 18 2013 13:34 bakemono wrote:
Guys - A widow mine costs the same as ONE baneling, 50 for a pair of lings, and 25/25 for the baneling, it does a lot more damage, has a lot more HP, can attack air and ground, and can be used repeatedly.

I think you are expecting too much for such a cheap unit. Life just played very well, you can't expect him to lose all his lings to 1 widow mine.


for the record, it costs 4 times the supply of a baneling.
Rainling
Profile Joined June 2011
United States456 Posts
March 18 2013 05:08 GMT
#48
TheSwagger, I tested both of your unconfirmed statements in a unit tester and they don't seem to work.

This is a useful micro trick from what I've seen. I think it will only be worthwhile to use this for small numbers of widow mines in engagements, because it's difficult to spread your attacks to different targets within two in-game seconds, and more than two or three widow mines triggering on a single unit would be inefficient.

I was worried widow mines would have no micro potential excepting positioning and burrowing them. I hope the manual targeting capability stays in the game, it allows widow mines to scale with better micro.
MorroW
Profile Joined August 2008
Sweden3522 Posts
March 18 2013 05:15 GMT
#49
how widow mine works
they lock onto a target. first one who enter within 5 range OR best unit (which is basically the closest unit to the widow mine)
once they lock into a target it begins channeling for 1.5 seconds (ingame)

if the unit leaves the 5 range, dies or player manually switches target during the channeling period - the widow mine repeats the process


so this is why mines sometimes dont attack, sometimes kill terran and sometimes kill zerg
so lets say you run in with zerglings against marines and a widow mine. the widow mine locks onto the first zergling who enters.
if the zergling dies to marines, it changes target and has to wait another 1.5 sek, if that ling dies to marines it changes target etc. so it appears not to be attacking at all.
if the zergling runs past the widow mine, behind the marines for example it switches target as well (the target has to be within 5 range the entire lockdown process)

as terran
so in a fight, you basically as terran ideally want to switch targets between the zerglings until the banelings enter range and then you target the bane and let the mines be.
second option is to stay with the marines, burst down as many lings as you can, and hopefully (and probably) you will kill all zerglings which were targetted automatically by the widow mines before they finish channeling and then banelings enter and you target the mines onto the banes

as zerg
as a zerg player, you know that your first zerglings will be targetted, so use your frontal line in move command behind the terran army and attack with the rest of your zerglings normally. if you do this just right (and terran doesnt) the mines will all fire on your lings that are behind his bio army and kill everything he got


widow mines appear random at the first glance of it. but the more you play around with them the more you realize how much you (as terran or zerg) can manipulate them and make them do exactly what you want them to. its not a user friendly unit at all because of how it can completely backfire using widow mines where as a siege tank you know will do a certain amount of damage. things like this is really beautiful and what is making bw a very different game from sc2. in bw there were tons of "OP" units that crushed your opponent or did close to nothing or killed yourself where as in sc2 its much more predictable whats expected of a unit because the complexity of it its not very deep

i think the widow mines are slightly too strong right now. but if your a zerg reading this i hope it helped abit how to make the widow mines turn against the terran instead of raping everything you got
Progamerpls no copy pasterino
govie
Profile Blog Joined November 2012
9334 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-18 05:31:55
March 18 2013 05:30 GMT
#50
On March 18 2013 14:15 MorroW wrote:
how widow mine works
they lock onto a target. first one who enter within 5 range OR best unit (which is basically the closest unit to the widow mine)
once they lock into a target it begins channeling for 1.5 seconds (ingame)

if the unit leaves the 5 range, dies or player manually switches target during the channeling period - the widow mine repeats the process


so this is why mines sometimes dont attack, sometimes kill terran and sometimes kill zerg
so lets say you run in with zerglings against marines and a widow mine. the widow mine locks onto the first zergling who enters.
if the zergling dies to marines, it changes target and has to wait another 1.5 sek, if that ling dies to marines it changes target etc. so it appears not to be attacking at all.
if the zergling runs past the widow mine, behind the marines for example it switches target as well (the target has to be within 5 range the entire lockdown process)

as terran
so in a fight, you basically as terran ideally want to switch targets between the zerglings until the banelings enter range and then you target the bane and let the mines be.
second option is to stay with the marines, burst down as many lings as you can, and hopefully (and probably) you will kill all zerglings which were targetted automatically by the widow mines before they finish channeling and then banelings enter and you target the mines onto the banes

as zerg
as a zerg player, you know that your first zerglings will be targetted, so use your frontal line in move command behind the terran army and attack with the rest of your zerglings normally. if you do this just right (and terran doesnt) the mines will all fire on your lings that are behind his bio army and kill everything he got


widow mines appear random at the first glance of it. but the more you play around with them the more you realize how much you (as terran or zerg) can manipulate them and make them do exactly what you want them to. its not a user friendly unit at all because of how it can completely backfire using widow mines where as a siege tank you know will do a certain amount of damage. things like this is really beautiful and what is making bw a very different game from sc2. in bw there were tons of "OP" units that crushed your opponent or did close to nothing or killed yourself where as in sc2 its much more predictable whats expected of a unit because the complexity of it its not very deep

i think the widow mines are slightly too strong right now. but if your a zerg reading this i hope it helped abit how to make the widow mines turn against the terran instead of raping everything you got


Whats your opinion about unitcomposition? Like, i see many proterrans play widowmine/marine/medivac. On MLG too with some succes. Do u think (against Z in particular) it's better to mix tanks and widowmines or play widowmines only?

It feels for me the 125 splashdamage is pretty cool, but the cooldown is what is makes the composition weaker in mid and late game. Still i see proterrans sticking with there composition. Which could state im wrong. What do u think?
The two NBA teams in states with legal weed are called the Nuggets and the Blazers...
Swordland
Profile Joined March 2013
232 Posts
March 18 2013 05:32 GMT
#51
I tried focus firing with WM but it didnt work...but yes, WM i think is too random.

Still cannot believe the Friendly Fire though.....Tanks does FF....WM does FF.....banelings dont and colossi dont...

Removing FF from WM would be a pretty good step IMO.
rice_devOurer
Profile Joined July 2012
United States773 Posts
March 18 2013 05:38 GMT
#52
On March 18 2013 14:15 MorroW wrote:
how widow mine works
they lock onto a target. first one who enter within 5 range OR best unit (which is basically the closest unit to the widow mine)
once they lock into a target it begins channeling for 1.5 seconds (ingame)

if the unit leaves the 5 range, dies or player manually switches target during the channeling period - the widow mine repeats the process


so this is why mines sometimes dont attack, sometimes kill terran and sometimes kill zerg
so lets say you run in with zerglings against marines and a widow mine. the widow mine locks onto the first zergling who enters.
if the zergling dies to marines, it changes target and has to wait another 1.5 sek, if that ling dies to marines it changes target etc. so it appears not to be attacking at all.
if the zergling runs past the widow mine, behind the marines for example it switches target as well (the target has to be within 5 range the entire lockdown process)

as terran
so in a fight, you basically as terran ideally want to switch targets between the zerglings until the banelings enter range and then you target the bane and let the mines be.
second option is to stay with the marines, burst down as many lings as you can, and hopefully (and probably) you will kill all zerglings which were targetted automatically by the widow mines before they finish channeling and then banelings enter and you target the mines onto the banes

as zerg
as a zerg player, you know that your first zerglings will be targetted, so use your frontal line in move command behind the terran army and attack with the rest of your zerglings normally. if you do this just right (and terran doesnt) the mines will all fire on your lings that are behind his bio army and kill everything he got


widow mines appear random at the first glance of it. but the more you play around with them the more you realize how much you (as terran or zerg) can manipulate them and make them do exactly what you want them to. its not a user friendly unit at all because of how it can completely backfire using widow mines where as a siege tank you know will do a certain amount of damage. things like this is really beautiful and what is making bw a very different game from sc2. in bw there were tons of "OP" units that crushed your opponent or did close to nothing or killed yourself where as in sc2 its much more predictable whats expected of a unit because the complexity of it its not very deep

i think the widow mines are slightly too strong right now. but if your a zerg reading this i hope it helped abit how to make the widow mines turn against the terran instead of raping everything you got

So its like the spidermines in bw, as in mine dragging, map control, and blowing things up??
IN SOVIET RUSSIA ノ┬─┬ノ ︵ ( \o°o)\ Table Flips you
MattBarry
Profile Joined March 2011
United States4006 Posts
March 18 2013 05:40 GMT
#53
On March 18 2013 14:32 Swordland wrote:
I tried focus firing with WM but it didnt work...but yes, WM i think is too random.

Still cannot believe the Friendly Fire though.....Tanks does FF....WM does FF.....banelings dont and colossi dont...

Removing FF from WM would be a pretty good step IMO.

I think if banelings did friendly fire they'd be the most useless unit in the game
Platinum Support GOD
Shift91
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
Sweden40 Posts
March 18 2013 06:34 GMT
#54
I'm a master zerg and even I don't want mines to be nerfed, it just feels so great to be able to do better by playing better(morrow made a really good thread a couple of months ago about how zerg didn't really have the ability to micro in the sence that 90% of the obligatory microing falls on the protoss/terran during the battle). Now I can finally look at a game i've won(or lost) and say "yeah, that was me winning/losing the decicive battle" instead of having to just sit there and grunt about how stupid it was that i couldn't have done anything better micro-wise to win.

TL;DR mines are fucking awesome!
okay, that game... killed my soul - EGIdra
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
March 18 2013 06:44 GMT
#55
On March 18 2013 12:29 avilo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 18 2013 12:13 deth wrote:
FROM THIS:
On March 18 2013 11:49 avilo wrote:
On March 18 2013 11:20 Zelniq wrote:
further testing indicates a couple of things:

if an enemy unit wanders in range but exits the range (range of 5) within less than ~2 ingame seconds, the mine doesn't fire, same thing goes for multiple units..if 10 lings enter but leave the radius before the ~2 seconds, it doesn't fire. If it's there for ~2+ seconds it does. So for an idea of what that's like, the magic ~2 second time that it won't set the mine off is a speedling off creep that's moving across the edge of the circle's range of a mine, as if you were slicing the end of an orange.

The target unit's speed is irrelevant, a queen off creep can wander in, spot the mine and leave without getting hit if it leaves the radius fast enough. (btw even without detection, the mine reveals itself when I think you wander in its range. reveals its location, but doesn't allow you to attack it, similar to units you can't see that's on higher ground, that shoot you)

@Swagger: search "hots unit tester online" in arcade. it uses whatever the current state of the game is, as in say the unlisted change that occured within last few days where mothership core's recall is canceled if the mothership core dies during the recall

no you cannot manually target mines. And yes it is more or less random.


TO THIS:
On March 18 2013 12:01 avilo wrote:
On March 18 2013 11:55 Zelniq wrote:
argh why are you still saying you can't manually target them...you obviously didn't just test it cus you would have found out you can..and your first post doesn't really explain the mechanics..it's basically what DeCoup posted at the top of this page. test it right now, you can see not only can you target with them but his post about how you can keep changing targets to reset the aim timer to indefinitely prevent them from attacking..just play vs AI and try it..


I'm talking about manually targetting to have them blow up immediately on the target you want like they were in a previous patch version of beta. You can no longer do that.



It's no wonder people don't take you seriously when you argue, its just an exercise in eye-rolling and face-palming frustration.


Nice ad hominem, lots of people specialize more in ad hominems lately than they do in analysis because it's easier for them.

Point i was making that flew over your head was that in the beta you previously could use the attack command to manually target widow mines onto units, whereas in the current release version that is no longer possible.

What zelniq is saying is entirely different. He is saying you can target the widow mines with a right click command onto units which is completely unintuitive for any player that played the beta version with the previous attack command that was on the command card and the current incarnation of the mine that has no option available in the command card.

How is a player supposed to know that they can re-target the widow mine manually by constantly changing attack targets with the mine over and over within a 2 second time-span? No one knew this before, and there also is no tool-tip for it.

So deth if you want to go argue about arguments and improve your ad hominem take it to reddit, they take that quite seriously over there.

There's a differentiation between the ability for a player to use the attack-move command and for something that does not show that in the command card yet it's still possible with a weird rule on it that no one knows about.

you wanna know why everyone ends up making ad hominem attacks on you? its because you're legitly, genuinely, dumb. im not saying that as an insult or anything. you just don't think well. so you keep saying things that are untrue and missing points that are very clearly made. so people get frustrated and tell you to fuck off. its been a pattern since the start of sc2. you're slow but even you should get it by now.
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
March 18 2013 06:44 GMT
#56
hey look my post is blue that means im right
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
Reki
Profile Joined August 2010
Philippines89 Posts
March 18 2013 06:44 GMT
#57
On March 18 2013 14:32 Swordland wrote:

Removing FF from WM would be a pretty good step IMO.

Oh hell no. You would get a retarded composition of just tanks and repairing scvs while spamming missile turrets that will autowin vs all races including night elf.
Chocobo
Profile Joined November 2006
United States1108 Posts
March 18 2013 06:44 GMT
#58
Widow mines definitely seem really random to me. I had game earlier where some lings ran right past my widow mines, I was certain it was a bug.

Here's a video from the replay:


The lings run around a corner, each one coming into range of mines #2 and #3, but each one never stays in range long enough for the mines to fire. When I watched the replay from the zerg's viewpoint, he could see the mines flickering in and out but never firing a shot.

I've never seen a mechanic like this in an RTS game, and I've never seen widow mines do this in the many streamed games I've watched. Stuff like this definitely adds to the randomness... I'd be in favor of having them fire instantly at units in range, but have the shot travel slightly slower maybe.
Malgrif
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Canada1095 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-18 07:04:42
March 18 2013 07:03 GMT
#59
On March 18 2013 15:44 IdrA wrote:


you wanna know why everyone ends up making ad hominem attacks on you? its because you're legitly, genuinely, dumb. im not saying that as an insult or anything. you just don't think well. so you keep saying things that are untrue and missing points that are very clearly made. so people get frustrated and tell you to fuck off. its been a pattern since the start of sc2. you're slow but even you should get it by now.
lmao idra with the manner
for there to be pro there has to be noob.
Reki
Profile Joined August 2010
Philippines89 Posts
March 18 2013 07:03 GMT
#60
On March 18 2013 15:44 Chocobo wrote:
Widow mines definitely seem really random to me. I had game earlier where some lings ran right past my widow mines, I was certain it was a bug.

At a glance it seems consistent with morrow's description. Every single ling that passed through didn't stay long enough for it's "channeling" complete.

IMO it's working as intended. Otherwise you would get results like multiple wms overkilling a single ling or accidentally losing your entire bio army because a roach tunneled under you.
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