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LOOKS AWESOME 
I believe that we should outline some reactions that dimaga does upon scouting though. (mainly because i want to know XD)
As far as my understanding goes....
Reactions
4 gate +1 = get a warren, or just banelings?
Immortal sentry = just lings? When to engage?
blink (probably +2) = no idea
Also, how do you actually attack the protoss with this style? Because it seems that this relies on a lot of surface area, which can really only be achieved when they attack. Like, would you ever attack into a ramp?
Finnaly, what are some transitions?
would you transition into roaches if you scout a heavy storm/archon play?
Are blords better for this compisition, or ultralisks? I personally believe ultras are better for killing ffs, and blords are too slow for this composition IMO.
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On June 21 2012 12:31 FindMuck wrote:LOOKS AWESOME I believe that we should outline some reactions that dimaga does upon scouting though. (mainly because i want to know XD) As far as my understanding goes.... Reactions4 gate +1 = get a warren, or just banelings? Immortal sentry = just lings? When to engage? blink (probably +2) = no idea Also, how do you actually attack the protoss with this style? Because it seems that this relies on a lot of surface area, which can really only be achieved when they attack. Like, would you ever attack into a ramp? Finnaly, what are some transitions?would you transition into roaches if you scout a heavy storm/archon play? Are blords better for this compisition, or ultralisks? I personally believe ultras are better for killing ffs, and blords are too slow for this composition IMO.
Immortal Sentry, you need banelings with drop to kill the sentries. Forcefields render your lings completely worthless.
Against blink you should get infestors for fungal + surround with lings.
For the 4 gate +1 attack I don't really know, other people have been saying you need the roach warren for it but I have yet to face it so I can't give you an answer.
As for transitions it's more personal taste I guess since you already have the melee upgrades, but I preferr BroodLords because I feel like ultras aren't good any in ZvP
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On June 21 2012 12:42 Najda wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 12:31 FindMuck wrote:LOOKS AWESOME I believe that we should outline some reactions that dimaga does upon scouting though. (mainly because i want to know XD) As far as my understanding goes.... Reactions4 gate +1 = get a warren, or just banelings? Immortal sentry = just lings? When to engage? blink (probably +2) = no idea Also, how do you actually attack the protoss with this style? Because it seems that this relies on a lot of surface area, which can really only be achieved when they attack. Like, would you ever attack into a ramp? Finnaly, what are some transitions?would you transition into roaches if you scout a heavy storm/archon play? Are blords better for this compisition, or ultralisks? I personally believe ultras are better for killing ffs, and blords are too slow for this composition IMO. Immortal Sentry, you need banelings with drop to kill the sentries. Forcefields render your lings completely worthless. Against blink you should get infestors for fungal + surround with lings. For the 4 gate +1 attack I don't really know, other people have been saying you need the roach warren for it but I have yet to face it so I can't give you an answer. - As for transitions it's more personal taste I guess since you already have the melee upgrades, but I preferr BroodLords because I feel like ultras aren't good any in ZvP
As far as I know, immortal sentrie pushes come before u have access to baneling drop (comes around 10:30, and drop finishes around 12)
And against blink allins there is no way ill get infestors out in time (if u get a den right after lair, considering build time and pathogen glands, it'll also be around 12)
Besides, stalkers can blink, making it very difficult to surround, and +2 murders lings
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you need to go ling bling vs both sentry immo and blink. you are right, both drop and infestor are far away with this style since you delay lair for a pretty long time.
whats really important: you have to engage early on with your lings and make him waste FF. lets say you play cloud kingdom and he moves to your 3rd. if you let him get to your 3rd without attacking you just lost because he has 30-40 FF and needs only 3-4. so you really have to engage, make him was FF and move back instantly. you have to do that pretty much until drop finishes.
vs blink: DONT a-move your banelings! a good P will just blink the front stalkers back and leave some so all your banelings would explode. your banelings are important to make him blink in open areas. if he has blinkstalkers in a choke and you have only lings left you lose. use your banelings to make him spread his stalker so lings get better surround.
havent seen dimaga play vs +1 4 gate oder things like +1 8 gate zealot heavy. in my opinion its best and by far the cheapest to just go 6:30 roach warren vs no gas natural and build the standard 5-6 roaches vs 4 gate +1. vs 6-8 gate build roach ling and after your banelingnest finishes add some blings if he is zealotheavy.
no matter which all in he builds: dont build lings the last second. you want to engage early on, snipe pylons and make him waste FF. keep your blings alive, dont a-move them and only attack with them if you get a clump of units. otherwise use them to spread his units and get surrounds for your lings.
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Wait, so for dealing with +2 blink stalkers, you use the banelings so he wastes blink, then use your lings for the surround? Thats pretty neat....
But I'm still not sure if lings will be able to kill the stalkers. I mean, the whole point of +2 is so stalkers can own lings really hard (it takes 1 less shot to kill a ling).
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On June 21 2012 22:14 iTopher wrote:
Wait, so for dealing with +2 blink stalkers, you use the banelings so he wastes blink, then use your lings for the surround? Thats pretty neat....
But I'm still not sure if lings will be able to kill the stalkers. I mean, the whole point of +2 is so stalkers can own lings really hard (it takes 1 less shot to kill a ling).
That's only true if you have 0 armor upgrades. They do 12 damage with +2, and you'll have +1 armor by then so it will still take 4 shots.
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you wont have +1 armor ready. if you do dimas buiild thats ready at about 10:40, blink all in is at 9:30.
BUT you will have just SO much shit and stalker that get surrounded after wasting their blink are just bad vs lings, even with +2. if you build lings early enough from your 4 hatches you be fine.
btw here is my adjusted build. i like to play a little more eco heavy and go for roach warren vs no double gas toss so its a bit different than his build.
vs 2 gas natural toss:
do dimas opening but go 5:50 one gas --> lingspeed
6:50 add 2 gases
7:20 lingspeed + double evo
7:40 macrohatch + lair
8:00 +1 carapace
8:20 +1 melee + 4th gas + 4th queen + blingnest + start building lings
vs no gas:
6:30 roach warren
7:20 lingspeed
--> mass roach ling until he takes more gases (no evos, no makrohatch, no lair, no blingnest)
vs one gas: (not sure about this yet):
7:00 roach warren
7:20 lingspeed
7:40 macrohatch
8:00 some roaches and lings
if safe, start evos, lair + 4th gas. if 6-8 gate allin: continue on roaches and lings.
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Fruitdealer actually used this comp a lot vs Protoss. However, he'd Also have mutalisks in the mix for zealots and harass.
Always dealin the fruits!
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Against 3 base collosus stalker semi-allins is the correct response to get corruptors or MASS BANELING DROPS?
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2 base fast collosus? i think get spire and if he pushes early on just go ling blingdrop and add corruptor then you have enough ling bling army. since you cant know if he pushes with 3 or more collosi you have to get spire. but dont get corruptor too early. mass ling blingdrop into corruptor is much saver and after sentrys are dead is enough to deal with 1-3 collossi.
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I've been playing this style for pretty long time, i've always loved the ling bane composition in ZvP. It is true that drop tech comes pretty late and it probabily won't be ready to hold a push, BUT, if you do research Burrow, you might have a chance if you can stall for enough time, and when you do get the burrow, they almost NEVER have an observer with them, only situation where they might have one is immortal allin because they have robo, but still they probabily use the robo to pump immortals so it's likely they still won't have an observer. Burrow some baneling on the ramp, wait for him to come up, and watch his army blowing up while you laugh at him. Give it a try
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
This is a GREAT build for the today's oh-so-common Immortal/Sentry allins. As most Protoss seem to blindly go for that build. The engagements are CRUCIAL for this build to work, if you send your lings too early, you're dead, if you send your lings too soon, you'll lose more than you should have and it is ALWAYS GOOD to have extra empty Overlords in your bainrain pack, just in case they want to snipe some drops.
The original build also works against 2base Colossus, but the only difference is that you'll need to get gases a tad quicker, especially the 3rd and 4th gas, as this build catches less experienced Protoss player off guard and they think they are safe behind their forcefields.
Due to timings of upgrades (if you went for an earlier gas at your main and natural), you can even deal with the Archon/Zealot transition (since most Protoss do that after their initial push fails), basically, then it is an all-in and I've held it off with just lings in two games.
Crucial notes for this build for some players:
- engagements are everything in this build, bad engagement=loss for you
- as many Protoss players actually asked me "what the fuck happened? where's my army?" (even Diamond and low Masters players are puzzled by this, as new players did not encounter this build recently), Overlords want to come up above your force-field turtled army and basically bomb your turtle with banelings, something like carpet-bombing the same spot
- practice 4gate timings and 7/8gate allins, as they counter this build hard when executed in a good manner (as that push comes around 8min mark, this build is not set in motion until 11min mark due to Overlord upgrades)
- if you just decimated the Protoss army for the second time with the same trick (unlikely to work), you should be already at Hive tech and you CAN go Ultralisks to finish off the Protoss instead of waiting for Brood Lords. Ultralisks are still a gamble, but if you dislike the immobile army you can try to finish it there with Ultras/Lings/Banelings
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you guys are missing... this is Symbol's build, not Dimaga's. Where do you think he got it from? Watch Symbol vs Parting GSL Ro32 - he uses it every game. His timings are MUCH crisper then Dimagas and actually allow you to hold Zealot heavy 2 base all-ins.
He also uses a roach / ling harass force to keep the protoss on his side of the map so you can mass up to 90 drones. He also threatens doom drops, counter attacks and multi-pronged attacks so that he can comfortably get the 3-4 ultras necessary to break forcefields.
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On June 25 2012 23:30 ItchyLegs wrote:
you guys are missing... this is Symbol's build, not Dimaga's. Where do you think he got it from? Watch Symbol vs Parting GSL Ro32 - he uses it every game. His timings are MUCH crisper then Dimagas and actually allow you to hold Zealot heavy 2 base all-ins.
He also uses a roach / ling harass force to keep the protoss on his side of the map so you can mass up to 90 drones. He also threatens doom drops, counter attacks and multi-pronged attacks so that he can comfortably get the 3-4 ultras necessary to break forcefields.
Can you link a vod or give his timings? :D
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Yeah, i want those Symbol vods too
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can anyone link VoDs of him holding some solid 2 base timing attacks?
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On June 25 2012 23:30 ItchyLegs wrote:
you guys are missing... this is Symbol's build, not Dimaga's. Where do you think he got it from? Watch Symbol vs Parting GSL Ro32 - he uses it every game. His timings are MUCH crisper then Dimagas and actually allow you to hold Zealot heavy 2 base all-ins.
He also uses a roach / ling harass force to keep the protoss on his side of the map so you can mass up to 90 drones. He also threatens doom drops, counter attacks and multi-pronged attacks so that he can comfortably get the 3-4 ultras necessary to break forcefields.
Dimaga has been doing this long before those games in the GSL. And Symbol plays it out a bit different to Dimaga, they both use banelings but they are honestly two different styles. It's impossible to know how long Symbol has been doing this, but i doubt Dimaga actually got it from him. Personally, i think Symbol's build is overall better, but don't confuse this build this Symbol's.
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On June 27 2012 08:31 sathin wrote:
can anyone link VoDs of him holding some solid 2 base timing attacks?
I am using this build in almost every game against protoss and I can hold 2 base allins with it, but it is hard. It is definitely very helpful if you attack the protoss directly when he is pushing out since his army only gets bigger on his way to your base due to upcomming warpins. Keep some lings close to his base and try to do a run by as soon as you are seeing him moving out. It is vital to kill his probe and to be completely sure that there are no forward pylons planted next to your base. If he is moving out with a lot of sentrys try to bate as many forcefields as possible on his way to your base. You have to delay his push as much as possible with this (Runbys, killing his probe, no pylons near your base, bating ffs)
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I think that even if you skip early the roach warren you are going to need roaches at the end since if the protoss is carying a warp prism he can warp tones of upgraded zealots once he realizes your composition which will be a pain in the ass.
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On August 30 2012 20:44 Nakranoth wrote:
I think that even if you skip early the roach warren you are going to need roaches at the end since if the protoss is carying a warp prism he can warp tones of upgraded zealots once he realizes your composition which will be a pain in the ass.
It's rock paper scissors: If toss sees a lot of banes, he will warp in stalkers. if your banes die in combat, he will warp in zealots. You know that, so act accordingly: If you lose your banes, build new ones because toss will reinfoce with zealots.
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EPT
