I've been a long time fan and supporter of Dima and have endured watching him continuously lose game after game to Protoss players.
Recently however, it appears as though our Ukrainian zerg has flipped the bird to the current roach-centric metagame in exchange for a much more ling and baneling heavy style. A style which seems to be working magnificently thus far.
After being flat out amazed by his performance today I decided that someone had to bring the build order and it's timings to public attention.
Without further adieu, the build is taken directly from DIMAGA vs NaNiwa game 2 on Ohana LE in the Dreamhack EIZO Open tournament.
I love the fact that i finally can see his build written, i love ling bane and i've been using this style for a lot vs P. lately i tried stealing dimaga's build after my friend told me he played banerain, and a lot of the timings here are similar or the same as mine. Still, something is missing here, and it's the deviations, the way he reacts to what he scouts. For example, i noticed that when he thinks he is going to be 4 gated or 6 gated, he always makes baneling nest before everything else.
On June 19 2012 07:28 Asolmanx wrote: I love the fact that i finally can see his build written, i love ling bane and i've been using this style for a lot vs P. lately i tried stealing dimaga's build after my friend told me he played banerain, and a lot of the timings here are similar or the same as mine. Still, something is missing here, and it's the deviations, the way he reacts to what he scouts. For example, i noticed that when he thinks he is going to be 4 gated or 6 gated, he always makes baneling nest before everything else.
That's actually a good thing to point out
Game 1 vs Fraer displays what Dimaga did to counter the gateway opening -> +1 gateway timing.
Ehh i rarely lose to this kind of style in my league. (1100)pt master last season.
But thats because i dont do sentry immortal style. I focus on blink stalker style w colos and few sentry which counters this buold pretty easily if youcan micro well enough.
I can see this countering many toss 2 base builds though that relies on perfect ff.
I feel you need baneling speed much much earlier. +1/+1 won't help you much if your banes get FFed, and with speed it's harder to FF them and they are faster to retreat.
Also, he should use drops more to harrass than to rain on top of the army, as that's even countered by stalker micro, let alone blink (or immortals).
On June 19 2012 08:16 Nihonjin wrote: Ehh i rarely lose to this kind of style in my league. (1100)pt master last season.
But thats because i dont do sentry immortal style. I focus on blink stalker style w colos and few sentry which counters this buold pretty easily if youcan micro well enough.
I can see this countering many toss 2 base builds though that relies on perfect ff.
I can't see how your imput helps this thread at all, nor i don't see why people should care that you never loose to this style. You actually say that you play a stalker colossus composition, but give no good reason to why this style isn't good against it. Also, it is not well developed style into the current metagame and i don't think you played against a lot of players who did this dimaga style following his build. I actually think that with good fungals even a stalker colossus sentry style can fall easly to ling baneling, i don't know, if you explained better the micro well part maybe... i guess you pull back colossi and try to blink? maybe post replays?
On June 19 2012 08:16 Nihonjin wrote: Ehh i rarely lose to this kind of style in my league. (1100)pt master last season.
But thats because i dont do sentry immortal style. I focus on blink stalker style w colos and few sentry which counters this buold pretty easily if youcan micro well enough.
I can see this countering many toss 2 base builds though that relies on perfect ff.
You don't have to go baneling drops though. You can just go infestors after lair tech if your overseer doesn't scout mass sentries, and you'd already have 1/1 upgrades.
I feel you need baneling speed much much earlier. +1/+1 won't help you much if your banes get FFed, and with speed it's harder to FF them and they are faster to retreat.
Also, he should use drops more to harrass than to rain on top of the army, as that's even countered by stalker micro, let alone blink (or immortals).
Obviously flanks are essential bro ^^ This isn't an a-move army for free dia ^^. But with good unit control its an army for free master ^^
Dimaga is really wracking havoc in current meta-game. Awesome style, very powerful. Good thing i play sky toss, wouldn't want to meet this in PvZ with ground army.
Now what i'll love to see is a viable end game with ultra ( i hate broodloards, not for their efficiency but for their feeling so "unzergy", which means slow as hell ). It has to be viable, multi drop, a moving army who fungal, drop banelings and break FF, even some nydus in the very late game and i would again fall in love with my favourite race.
On June 19 2012 14:47 Rimak wrote: Dimaga is really wracking havoc in current meta-game. Awesome style, very powerful. Good thing i play sky toss, wouldn't want to meet this in PvZ with ground army.
Well, the thing is, you should be much MUCH more afraid to meet this style with an air army.
Lings and banes don't lift up well with Phoenixes and Voids don't even charge up on them. He'll be busting your bases in an instant if he sees you going air while he spores up his bases. GG. So just because Zerg doesn't have stuff that can shoot up doesn't mean he will be sitting in his base. It's just irrelevant if Zerg has 100 lings and 50 Speedbanes at 10:30 if Protoss has some funky looking units (50% of which can't even shoot down).
Personally, I just ignore the toss if he's going air unitwise (meaning I don't produce units that can actually shoot up) and just roll him with whatever ground stuff I happen to be having.
On June 19 2012 14:47 Rimak wrote: Dimaga is really wracking havoc in current meta-game. Awesome style, very powerful. Good thing i play sky toss, wouldn't want to meet this in PvZ with ground army.
Well, the thing is, you should be much MUCH more afraid to meet this style with an air army.
Lings and banes don't lift up well with Phoenixes and Voids don't even charge up on them. He'll be busting your bases in an instant if he sees you going air while he spores up his bases. GG. So just because Zerg doesn't have stuff that can shoot up doesn't mean he will be sitting in his base. It's just irrelevant if Zerg has 100 lings and 50 Speedbanes at 10:30 if Protoss has some funky looking units (50% of which can't even shoot down).
Personally, I just ignore the toss if he's going air unitwise (meaning I don't produce units that can actually shoot up) and just roll him with whatever ground stuff I happen to be having.
Not really agree. I don't really want to argue it in this thread, cuz obv it's another strat. But you should check out this topic for more details, there is even a replay of toss playing vs ling-bane style. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333403
On June 19 2012 14:47 Rimak wrote: Dimaga is really wracking havoc in current meta-game. Awesome style, very powerful. Good thing i play sky toss, wouldn't want to meet this in PvZ with ground army.
Well, the thing is, you should be much MUCH more afraid to meet this style with an air army.
Lings and banes don't lift up well with Phoenixes and Voids don't even charge up on them. He'll be busting your bases in an instant if he sees you going air while he spores up his bases. GG. So just because Zerg doesn't have stuff that can shoot up doesn't mean he will be sitting in his base. It's just irrelevant if Zerg has 100 lings and 50 Speedbanes at 10:30 if Protoss has some funky looking units (50% of which can't even shoot down).
Personally, I just ignore the toss if he's going air unitwise (meaning I don't produce units that can actually shoot up) and just roll him with whatever ground stuff I happen to be having.
Not really agree. I don't really want to argue it in this thread, cuz obv it's another strat. But you should check out this topic for more details, there is even a replay of toss playing vs ling-bane style. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333403
why wouldn't you argue in this thread? this is about ling bane style. You obviously have to hit him hard seeing him go air before he has 10 voids and a mothership, should have made that clearer I guess. Upgraded Ling Speedbane hits at about 10:30 to 11:30 with above mentioned numbers, no amount of cannons or voids can save your base from that at that time.
Nice build writeup, though i noticed naniwa just randomly attacked with a stalker/collosus army as if dimaga was playing for quick broods; i wonder if naniwa had just stayed at home and macro'd to mommaship/archon how the game would have gone.
Man this style is sick, I need to learn the micro-mechanics though. I tend to botch the overlord drops in big engagements and not do as much damage with the banelings as I could. Any suggestions/tips?
MorroW was doing something similar to this a while back with a later hatchery and earlier upgrades. It was very strong there and a lot of Protoss players struggled with it for quite some time. There's some variations in DIMAGA's strategy that I feel make it a lot stronger (especially in terms of how he reacted to scouting information), but the build isn't something that pro players haven't seen before: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Ling/Bane_(vs._Protoss).
This build is a lot of fun on the ladder. Every so often you run in to that one guy who happens to be going for archon/zealot 2 base timings and, if you aren't prepared like me, you get destroyed by the subsequent stalker warp-ins. But very few people do that :-D
Just to get things straight and really understand this whole matter, which the casters made up @ DH. Isnt the Dima-Style been used long before by MorroW and he just transferred it over to a 3Base build? Not to take anything away from Dima, i think he started this style at the same time like MorroW, but he made it more famous. I was just wondering why all the casters were blown away by a style, which isnt that innovative and new, but merely underused?! Have I missed something "new" or are they just happy seeing someone NOT doing Steph?!
Great OP by the way, has helped me streamlining my variant of this build.
nice writeup. would be nice if you could add the reactions of dimaga vs things like 4 gate +1 pressure, 6-8 gate etc. so everything that makes him change this standard BO. does he add a roach warren vs no gas natural P?
On June 20 2012 14:19 joeyBanana wrote: Just to get things straight and really understand this whole matter, which the casters made up @ DH. Isnt the Dima-Style been used long before by MorroW and he just transferred it over to a 3Base build? Not to take anything away from Dima, i think he started this style at the same time like MorroW, but he made it more famous. I was just wondering why all the casters were blown away by a style, which isnt that innovative and new, but merely underused?! Have I missed something "new" or are they just happy seeing someone NOT doing Steph?!
Great OP by the way, has helped me streamlining my variant of this build.
MorroW did come up with an amazing ling bane style, and he indeed was the first to do such thing, but, MorroW's build was 2 base, because the metagame back then still was gate expand, so when the metagame switched to forge FE and 3 hatch, nobody ever made a 3 hatch version of the ling bane style before Dimaga did.
On June 20 2012 15:59 Decendos wrote: nice writeup. would be nice if you could add the reactions of dimaga vs things like 4 gate +1 pressure, 6-8 gate etc. so everything that makes him change this standard BO. does he add a roach warren vs no gas natural P?
no, he never adds roach warren. But, about the scouting, he likes to send the first overlord to see if both gases in the main were taken, and if he scouts the push he adds bane nest ASAP (no spines tho).
On June 20 2012 15:59 Decendos wrote: nice writeup. would be nice if you could add the reactions of dimaga vs things like 4 gate +1 pressure, 6-8 gate etc. so everything that makes him change this standard BO. does he add a roach warren vs no gas natural P?
I used to do this style alot a year ago. Been mixing it in again now after watching Dimaga's success with it at DH. Seem to be really strong in the current state of roach galore in ZvP. Especially with the trend on EU atm beeing just blindly going immortal sentry pushes to counter roach. But, I strongly urge you to get a roach warren ASAP if you scout no gas at natural still by 6:15-6:45. Banelings are not cost efficient against 4 gate zealot stuff. It doesnt really matter if the protoss splits his zealots or not. And it is not hard to spread 4-8 zealots, so if they do its even worse. 1 baneling cost the same ammount of gas as 1 roach, and just 25 minerals cheaper. It takes 5 banelings to kill a single zealot. After 4 they are really low red and easily cleaned up by lings, but still. It is both cheaper on larvae and mineral/gas to go Roach to fend off this type of thing.
Against a 1-2gas 7 gate allin it is even worse. I dont think you can possibly hold with ling baneling alone, and if you do you will have to cut drones crazy early. I am pretty confident that it is impossible to hold if you play reactionairy and scout it coming as early as you possibly can, say you see the gates go down at 6:00-6:30.
To sum it up; get that roach warren down if you have a feeling some early gateway pressure is coming! It is well worth the 150 mineral and 1 drone investment.
On June 20 2012 15:59 Decendos wrote: nice writeup. would be nice if you could add the reactions of dimaga vs things like 4 gate +1 pressure, 6-8 gate etc. so everything that makes him change this standard BO. does he add a roach warren vs no gas natural P?
I used to do this style alot a year ago. Been mixing it in again now after watching Dimaga's success with it at DH. Seem to be really strong in the current state of roach galore in ZvP. Especially with the trend on EU atm beeing just blindly going immortal sentry pushes to counter roach. But, I strongly urge you to get a roach warren ASAP if you scout no gas at natural still by 6:15-6:45. Banelings are not cost efficient against 4 gate zealot stuff. It doesnt really matter if the protoss splits his zealots or not. And it is not hard to spread 4-8 zealots, so if they do its even worse. 1 baneling cost the same ammount of gas as 1 roach, and just 25 minerals cheaper. It takes 5 banelings to kill a single zealot. After 4 they are really low red and easily cleaned up by lings, but still. It is both cheaper on larvae and mineral/gas to go Roach to fend off this type of thing.
Against a 1-2gas 7 gate allin it is even worse. I dont think you can possibly hold with ling baneling alone, and if you do you will have to cut drones crazy early. I am pretty confident that it is impossible to hold if you play reactionairy and scout it coming as early as you possibly can, say you see the gates go down at 6:00-6:30.
To sum it up; get that roach warren down if you have a feeling some early gateway pressure is coming! It is well worth the 150 mineral and 1 drone investment.
i think so too. did a little testing and just going for roach warren vs no gas natural seems best.
vs 2 gas natural you are definetly able to go no roach warren and defend with blingnest.
dont know yet about 1 gas natural, since there are a lot of things toss can do of that. think getting 7:10 roach warren + a bit delayed blingnest is worth it, since toss can do like 7 gate allin, expand, stargate, immo-push etc. on one gas, so having the opportunity to build roaches or blings seems nice.
if you go roach warren you can delay your gas by a good amount. right now i tested with 6:00 one gas and add 2 gas at 7:00. gives you a lot more mineral income so i have like 70-75 supply at 8:00 instead of dimas 60 supply.
first 100 gas go in lingspeed (or roaches vs no gas natural and skip lingspeed, evos and lair till he adds gases). not absolutely sure about my gas timings, but getting roach warren and delaying gas gives you really better eco than dimas 4:30 gas to get fast lingspeed.
Dimaga goes for that early lingspeed to be able to skip the roaches. He is defending with map control and stopping zealot pressure with killing pylons out on the map. It is ofc possible to do this and react with emergency spines if something nasty is coming. But I still think standard roach warren is worth it if you wanna be safe.
Im adding a replay of a laddergame of mine from yesterday that show this style. It also show my way of dealing with the sentry, immortal stuff. I go pure lings and ad a hydranest (blind in this case cause I couldnt spot his natural gasses), and if I see the immortal sentry thing coming I make 6-8 hydras and defend with that and the lings. Havent lost to that push with his style yet as it is really strong, and you dont make more then those initial hydras so I feel it doesnt put you all that behind. Transition well into this banerain style, mutas or even infestor fast hive.
If you want to see more of this style, go watch Snute's stream. He plays this style alot, although I think he's been deviating abit lately. He used to have insane control with it, using only Ling/blings and drop. MorroW also did this for some time, not sure if he does it anymore, though.
I REALLY like this style vs toss. It feels truly like the swarm. but what do u guys think gas should go to, and in what order? speed/1+1/blingnest/lair?
and also; how do u feel about rushing the upgrades? getting them at about 5-6 mins? thoughts?
On June 20 2012 03:18 sYnSiLenCe wrote: the build, which is written here is slightly wrong. it is: 15 pool 16 hatch AND AFTER THE HATCH THE OVERLORD
On June 20 2012 20:09 ThePlayer33 wrote: LOL wow the op is so reliable 15 OL 16 hatch you just lost all the credibility in your thread
It's entirely based on how toss delays the natural, this is the most optimal way of doing it if he doesn't pylon block and just probe blocks.
Dimaga only actually varies from the current metagame in this area by making 2 sets of lings and double expanding. Rather than expanding straight to his third (Should a pylon block occur).
and after lair is finished you can transition in infestor, blingdrop, muta, roaches etc.
ling bling is even nice vs blink all ins since he either has to clump his stalker so blings rape them or split them so lings gets awesome surround. FUCK DEM ROACHES! :D
I've always wanted to try this style. Actually a while back I thought of going pure ling/bling with bling drops and flanking with lings from both sides so the stalkers can't kite the overlords. Now I know this style is actually viable. I'm masters zerg and I've been having so much trouble against Protoss. I tried the roach centric style but I hate it and also find it hard to transition out of.
I do have a few questions though. How does this deal with 2 base all ins? You don't get baneling speed or drops in time IMO for some timings like 6 gate. I want to try this, but I'm not sure how you deal with 2 base timings, especially since they are hard to hold off without roaches. If I recall mana beat dimaga using 2 base timings in dreamhack? I could be wrong though, even though I'm in masters my ZvP is atrocious and I have no comprehension of the match up at all.
I did this style back a long time ago when every zerg was getting destroyed by stalker/sentry/colossus. it's good, but it's not really a style, it's more of a build. in the current metagame, where toss players are focusing on taking a third with sentry/immortal (with the stephano style roach max in mind) this build looks very, very powerful. against other things that toss can do, it's not so good. surprisingly, it's pretty safe against very fast gate attacks. it's not so safe against 2 base archon timings, air openings, 2 base timings that hit right before drop, very chokey maps, etc.
people end up thinking this is a fully fleshed style that has divergences and can deal with everything toss can do. in my opinion, it's not. it's really more of a timing attack. a very good one at that.
Is there anyone who knows how to position/engage with this? Do you send lings first for a surround then rain over the army? Do you send fake overlords first and then send in the rain and lings at the same time? Do you lob infested terrans out and fungal the army so it can't escape before attacking?
On June 21 2012 09:33 TranceKuja wrote: Archon/zealot kills this style pretty easy, but it loses to roaches(which are popular right now).
Yea this build used to be very popular and then people figured out going Archon/Zealot is effective against it right as the patch hit which changed how unloading banelings on a clustered group of units works. It used to just drop them regardless of available space but now it will wait until there is available space or drop it at the edge.
Another key aspect to this build is a fast hive because ling/bane/infestor doesn't last that long against blinkstalker + collosus. Of course, I'm referring to the old way it was done because I'm not familiar wth how dimaga does it now.
On June 21 2012 10:12 PieTaster wrote: Is there anyone who knows how to position/engage with this? Do you send lings first for a surround then rain over the army? Do you send fake overlords first and then send in the rain and lings at the same time? Do you lob infested terrans out and fungal the army so it can't escape before attacking?
I try to engage with everything at the same time, from multiple angles if possible. The lings need to take damage away from the overlords but you want to get the overlords in there ASAP to kill the sentries to prevent the forcefields. Infestor's fungal just helps bring it all together.
I believe that we should outline some reactions that dimaga does upon scouting though. (mainly because i want to know XD)
As far as my understanding goes....
Reactions
4 gate +1 = get a warren, or just banelings?
Immortal sentry = just lings? When to engage?
blink (probably +2) = no idea
Also, how do you actually attack the protoss with this style? Because it seems that this relies on a lot of surface area, which can really only be achieved when they attack. Like, would you ever attack into a ramp?
Finnaly, what are some transitions?
would you transition into roaches if you scout a heavy storm/archon play?
Are blords better for this compisition, or ultralisks? I personally believe ultras are better for killing ffs, and blords are too slow for this composition IMO.
On June 21 2012 12:31 FindMuck wrote: LOOKS AWESOME
I believe that we should outline some reactions that dimaga does upon scouting though. (mainly because i want to know XD)
As far as my understanding goes....
Reactions
4 gate +1 = get a warren, or just banelings?
Immortal sentry = just lings? When to engage?
blink (probably +2) = no idea
Also, how do you actually attack the protoss with this style? Because it seems that this relies on a lot of surface area, which can really only be achieved when they attack. Like, would you ever attack into a ramp?
Finnaly, what are some transitions?
would you transition into roaches if you scout a heavy storm/archon play?
Are blords better for this compisition, or ultralisks? I personally believe ultras are better for killing ffs, and blords are too slow for this composition IMO.
Immortal Sentry, you need banelings with drop to kill the sentries. Forcefields render your lings completely worthless.
Against blink you should get infestors for fungal + surround with lings.
For the 4 gate +1 attack I don't really know, other people have been saying you need the roach warren for it but I have yet to face it so I can't give you an answer.
As for transitions it's more personal taste I guess since you already have the melee upgrades, but I preferr BroodLords because I feel like ultras aren't good any in ZvP
On June 21 2012 12:31 FindMuck wrote: LOOKS AWESOME
I believe that we should outline some reactions that dimaga does upon scouting though. (mainly because i want to know XD)
As far as my understanding goes....
Reactions
4 gate +1 = get a warren, or just banelings?
Immortal sentry = just lings? When to engage?
blink (probably +2) = no idea
Also, how do you actually attack the protoss with this style? Because it seems that this relies on a lot of surface area, which can really only be achieved when they attack. Like, would you ever attack into a ramp?
Finnaly, what are some transitions?
would you transition into roaches if you scout a heavy storm/archon play?
Are blords better for this compisition, or ultralisks? I personally believe ultras are better for killing ffs, and blords are too slow for this composition IMO.
Immortal Sentry, you need banelings with drop to kill the sentries. Forcefields render your lings completely worthless.
Against blink you should get infestors for fungal + surround with lings.
For the 4 gate +1 attack I don't really know, other people have been saying you need the roach warren for it but I have yet to face it so I can't give you an answer. - As for transitions it's more personal taste I guess since you already have the melee upgrades, but I preferr BroodLords because I feel like ultras aren't good any in ZvP
As far as I know, immortal sentrie pushes come before u have access to baneling drop (comes around 10:30, and drop finishes around 12)
And against blink allins there is no way ill get infestors out in time (if u get a den right after lair, considering build time and pathogen glands, it'll also be around 12) Besides, stalkers can blink, making it very difficult to surround, and +2 murders lings
you need to go ling bling vs both sentry immo and blink. you are right, both drop and infestor are far away with this style since you delay lair for a pretty long time.
whats really important: you have to engage early on with your lings and make him waste FF. lets say you play cloud kingdom and he moves to your 3rd. if you let him get to your 3rd without attacking you just lost because he has 30-40 FF and needs only 3-4. so you really have to engage, make him was FF and move back instantly. you have to do that pretty much until drop finishes.
vs blink: DONT a-move your banelings! a good P will just blink the front stalkers back and leave some so all your banelings would explode. your banelings are important to make him blink in open areas. if he has blinkstalkers in a choke and you have only lings left you lose. use your banelings to make him spread his stalker so lings get better surround.
havent seen dimaga play vs +1 4 gate oder things like +1 8 gate zealot heavy. in my opinion its best and by far the cheapest to just go 6:30 roach warren vs no gas natural and build the standard 5-6 roaches vs 4 gate +1. vs 6-8 gate build roach ling and after your banelingnest finishes add some blings if he is zealotheavy.
no matter which all in he builds: dont build lings the last second. you want to engage early on, snipe pylons and make him waste FF. keep your blings alive, dont a-move them and only attack with them if you get a clump of units. otherwise use them to spread his units and get surrounds for your lings.
Wait, so for dealing with +2 blink stalkers, you use the banelings so he wastes blink, then use your lings for the surround? Thats pretty neat....
But I'm still not sure if lings will be able to kill the stalkers. I mean, the whole point of +2 is so stalkers can own lings really hard (it takes 1 less shot to kill a ling).
On June 21 2012 22:14 iTopher wrote: Wait, so for dealing with +2 blink stalkers, you use the banelings so he wastes blink, then use your lings for the surround? Thats pretty neat....
But I'm still not sure if lings will be able to kill the stalkers. I mean, the whole point of +2 is so stalkers can own lings really hard (it takes 1 less shot to kill a ling).
That's only true if you have 0 armor upgrades. They do 12 damage with +2, and you'll have +1 armor by then so it will still take 4 shots.
you wont have +1 armor ready. if you do dimas buiild thats ready at about 10:40, blink all in is at 9:30.
BUT you will have just SO much shit and stalker that get surrounded after wasting their blink are just bad vs lings, even with +2. if you build lings early enough from your 4 hatches you be fine.
btw here is my adjusted build. i like to play a little more eco heavy and go for roach warren vs no double gas toss so its a bit different than his build.
vs 2 gas natural toss:
do dimas opening but go 5:50 one gas --> lingspeed
6:50 add 2 gases 7:20 lingspeed + double evo 7:40 macrohatch + lair 8:00 +1 carapace 8:20 +1 melee + 4th gas + 4th queen + blingnest + start building lings
vs no gas:
6:30 roach warren 7:20 lingspeed --> mass roach ling until he takes more gases (no evos, no makrohatch, no lair, no blingnest)
vs one gas: (not sure about this yet):
7:00 roach warren 7:20 lingspeed 7:40 macrohatch 8:00 some roaches and lings if safe, start evos, lair + 4th gas. if 6-8 gate allin: continue on roaches and lings.
2 base fast collosus? i think get spire and if he pushes early on just go ling blingdrop and add corruptor then you have enough ling bling army. since you cant know if he pushes with 3 or more collosi you have to get spire. but dont get corruptor too early. mass ling blingdrop into corruptor is much saver and after sentrys are dead is enough to deal with 1-3 collossi.
I've been playing this style for pretty long time, i've always loved the ling bane composition in ZvP. It is true that drop tech comes pretty late and it probabily won't be ready to hold a push, BUT, if you do research Burrow, you might have a chance if you can stall for enough time, and when you do get the burrow, they almost NEVER have an observer with them, only situation where they might have one is immortal allin because they have robo, but still they probabily use the robo to pump immortals so it's likely they still won't have an observer. Burrow some baneling on the ramp, wait for him to come up, and watch his army blowing up while you laugh at him. Give it a try
This is a GREAT build for the today's oh-so-common Immortal/Sentry allins. As most Protoss seem to blindly go for that build. The engagements are CRUCIAL for this build to work, if you send your lings too early, you're dead, if you send your lings too soon, you'll lose more than you should have and it is ALWAYS GOOD to have extra empty Overlords in your bainrain pack, just in case they want to snipe some drops.
The original build also works against 2base Colossus, but the only difference is that you'll need to get gases a tad quicker, especially the 3rd and 4th gas, as this build catches less experienced Protoss player off guard and they think they are safe behind their forcefields.
Due to timings of upgrades (if you went for an earlier gas at your main and natural), you can even deal with the Archon/Zealot transition (since most Protoss do that after their initial push fails), basically, then it is an all-in and I've held it off with just lings in two games.
Crucial notes for this build for some players: - engagements are everything in this build, bad engagement=loss for you - as many Protoss players actually asked me "what the fuck happened? where's my army?" (even Diamond and low Masters players are puzzled by this, as new players did not encounter this build recently), Overlords want to come up above your force-field turtled army and basically bomb your turtle with banelings, something like carpet-bombing the same spot - practice 4gate timings and 7/8gate allins, as they counter this build hard when executed in a good manner (as that push comes around 8min mark, this build is not set in motion until 11min mark due to Overlord upgrades) - if you just decimated the Protoss army for the second time with the same trick (unlikely to work), you should be already at Hive tech and you CAN go Ultralisks to finish off the Protoss instead of waiting for Brood Lords. Ultralisks are still a gamble, but if you dislike the immobile army you can try to finish it there with Ultras/Lings/Banelings
you guys are missing... this is Symbol's build, not Dimaga's. Where do you think he got it from? Watch Symbol vs Parting GSL Ro32 - he uses it every game. His timings are MUCH crisper then Dimagas and actually allow you to hold Zealot heavy 2 base all-ins.
He also uses a roach / ling harass force to keep the protoss on his side of the map so you can mass up to 90 drones. He also threatens doom drops, counter attacks and multi-pronged attacks so that he can comfortably get the 3-4 ultras necessary to break forcefields.
On June 25 2012 23:30 ItchyLegs wrote: you guys are missing... this is Symbol's build, not Dimaga's. Where do you think he got it from? Watch Symbol vs Parting GSL Ro32 - he uses it every game. His timings are MUCH crisper then Dimagas and actually allow you to hold Zealot heavy 2 base all-ins.
He also uses a roach / ling harass force to keep the protoss on his side of the map so you can mass up to 90 drones. He also threatens doom drops, counter attacks and multi-pronged attacks so that he can comfortably get the 3-4 ultras necessary to break forcefields.
On June 25 2012 23:30 ItchyLegs wrote: you guys are missing... this is Symbol's build, not Dimaga's. Where do you think he got it from? Watch Symbol vs Parting GSL Ro32 - he uses it every game. His timings are MUCH crisper then Dimagas and actually allow you to hold Zealot heavy 2 base all-ins.
He also uses a roach / ling harass force to keep the protoss on his side of the map so you can mass up to 90 drones. He also threatens doom drops, counter attacks and multi-pronged attacks so that he can comfortably get the 3-4 ultras necessary to break forcefields.
Dimaga has been doing this long before those games in the GSL. And Symbol plays it out a bit different to Dimaga, they both use banelings but they are honestly two different styles. It's impossible to know how long Symbol has been doing this, but i doubt Dimaga actually got it from him. Personally, i think Symbol's build is overall better, but don't confuse this build this Symbol's.
On June 27 2012 08:31 sathin wrote: can anyone link VoDs of him holding some solid 2 base timing attacks?
I am using this build in almost every game against protoss and I can hold 2 base allins with it, but it is hard. It is definitely very helpful if you attack the protoss directly when he is pushing out since his army only gets bigger on his way to your base due to upcomming warpins. Keep some lings close to his base and try to do a run by as soon as you are seeing him moving out. It is vital to kill his probe and to be completely sure that there are no forward pylons planted next to your base. If he is moving out with a lot of sentrys try to bate as many forcefields as possible on his way to your base. You have to delay his push as much as possible with this (Runbys, killing his probe, no pylons near your base, bating ffs)
I think that even if you skip early the roach warren you are going to need roaches at the end since if the protoss is carying a warp prism he can warp tones of upgraded zealots once he realizes your composition which will be a pain in the ass.
On August 30 2012 20:44 Nakranoth wrote: I think that even if you skip early the roach warren you are going to need roaches at the end since if the protoss is carying a warp prism he can warp tones of upgraded zealots once he realizes your composition which will be a pain in the ass.
It's rock paper scissors: If toss sees a lot of banes, he will warp in stalkers. if your banes die in combat, he will warp in zealots. You know that, so act accordingly: If you lose your banes, build new ones because toss will reinfoce with zealots.
The ling bane builds have been around a while. The reason they arent seen as often is ling banes have alot of trouble countering protoss allins, especially warpgate allins and blink allins. But if for some reason you believe your opponent wont do those builds, then ling bane is pretty powerful.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/OIOcvW7HF58/0.jpg)
thanks a lot.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-265746.jpg)
