EPT[D] DIMAGA Ling/Banerain ZvP (Build order Timings) - Page 2
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ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3209 Posts
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sYnSiLenCe
Germany1 Post
it is: 15 pool 16 hatch AND AFTER THE HATCH THE OVERLORD | ||
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joeyBanana
Germany77 Posts
 Great OP by the way, has helped me streamlining my variant of this build. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
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Asolmanx
Italy141 Posts
On June 20 2012 14:19 joeyBanana wrote: Just to get things straight and really understand this whole matter, which the casters made up @ DH. Isnt the Dima-Style been used long before by MorroW and he just transferred it over to a 3Base build? Not to take anything away from Dima, i think he started this style at the same time like MorroW, but he made it more famous. I was just wondering why all the casters were blown away by a style, which isnt that innovative and new, but merely underused?! Have I missed something "new" or are they just happy seeing someone NOT doing Steph?! Great OP by the way, has helped me streamlining my variant of this build. MorroW did come up with an amazing ling bane style, and he indeed was the first to do such thing, but, MorroW's build was 2 base, because the metagame back then still was gate expand, so when the metagame switched to forge FE and 3 hatch, nobody ever made a 3 hatch version of the ling bane style before Dimaga did. | ||
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Asolmanx
Italy141 Posts
On June 20 2012 15:59 Decendos wrote: nice writeup. would be nice if you could add the reactions of dimaga vs things like 4 gate +1 pressure, 6-8 gate etc. so everything that makes him change this standard BO. does he add a roach warren vs no gas natural P? no, he never adds roach warren. But, about the scouting, he likes to send the first overlord to see if both gases in the main were taken, and if he scouts the push he adds bane nest ASAP (no spines tho). | ||
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TiBoxy
Norway23 Posts
On June 20 2012 15:59 Decendos wrote: nice writeup. would be nice if you could add the reactions of dimaga vs things like 4 gate +1 pressure, 6-8 gate etc. so everything that makes him change this standard BO. does he add a roach warren vs no gas natural P? I used to do this style alot a year ago. Been mixing it in again now after watching Dimaga's success with it at DH. Seem to be really strong in the current state of roach galore in ZvP. Especially with the trend on EU atm beeing just blindly going immortal sentry pushes to counter roach. But, I strongly urge you to get a roach warren ASAP if you scout no gas at natural still by 6:15-6:45. Banelings are not cost efficient against 4 gate zealot stuff. It doesnt really matter if the protoss splits his zealots or not. And it is not hard to spread 4-8 zealots, so if they do its even worse. 1 baneling cost the same ammount of gas as 1 roach, and just 25 minerals cheaper. It takes 5 banelings to kill a single zealot. After 4 they are really low red and easily cleaned up by lings, but still. It is both cheaper on larvae and mineral/gas to go Roach to fend off this type of thing. Against a 1-2gas 7 gate allin it is even worse. I dont think you can possibly hold with ling baneling alone, and if you do you will have to cut drones crazy early. I am pretty confident that it is impossible to hold if you play reactionairy and scout it coming as early as you possibly can, say you see the gates go down at 6:00-6:30. To sum it up; get that roach warren down if you have a feeling some early gateway pressure is coming! It is well worth the 150 mineral and 1 drone investment. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
On June 20 2012 18:28 TiBoxy wrote: I used to do this style alot a year ago. Been mixing it in again now after watching Dimaga's success with it at DH. Seem to be really strong in the current state of roach galore in ZvP. Especially with the trend on EU atm beeing just blindly going immortal sentry pushes to counter roach. But, I strongly urge you to get a roach warren ASAP if you scout no gas at natural still by 6:15-6:45. Banelings are not cost efficient against 4 gate zealot stuff. It doesnt really matter if the protoss splits his zealots or not. And it is not hard to spread 4-8 zealots, so if they do its even worse. 1 baneling cost the same ammount of gas as 1 roach, and just 25 minerals cheaper. It takes 5 banelings to kill a single zealot. After 4 they are really low red and easily cleaned up by lings, but still. It is both cheaper on larvae and mineral/gas to go Roach to fend off this type of thing. Against a 1-2gas 7 gate allin it is even worse. I dont think you can possibly hold with ling baneling alone, and if you do you will have to cut drones crazy early. I am pretty confident that it is impossible to hold if you play reactionairy and scout it coming as early as you possibly can, say you see the gates go down at 6:00-6:30. To sum it up; get that roach warren down if you have a feeling some early gateway pressure is coming! It is well worth the 150 mineral and 1 drone investment. i think so too. did a little testing and just going for roach warren vs no gas natural seems best. vs 2 gas natural you are definetly able to go no roach warren and defend with blingnest. dont know yet about 1 gas natural, since there are a lot of things toss can do of that. think getting 7:10 roach warren + a bit delayed blingnest is worth it, since toss can do like 7 gate allin, expand, stargate, immo-push etc. on one gas, so having the opportunity to build roaches or blings seems nice. if you go roach warren you can delay your gas by a good amount. right now i tested with 6:00 one gas and add 2 gas at 7:00. gives you a lot more mineral income so i have like 70-75 supply at 8:00 instead of dimas 60 supply. first 100 gas go in lingspeed (or roaches vs no gas natural and skip lingspeed, evos and lair till he adds gases). not absolutely sure about my gas timings, but getting roach warren and delaying gas gives you really better eco than dimas 4:30 gas to get fast lingspeed. | ||
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TiBoxy
Norway23 Posts
Dimaga goes for that early lingspeed to be able to skip the roaches. He is defending with map control and stopping zealot pressure with killing pylons out on the map. It is ofc possible to do this and react with emergency spines if something nasty is coming. But I still think standard roach warren is worth it if you wanna be safe. Im adding a replay of a laddergame of mine from yesterday that show this style. It also show my way of dealing with the sentry, immortal stuff. I go pure lings and ad a hydranest (blind in this case cause I couldnt spot his natural gasses), and if I see the immortal sentry thing coming I make 6-8 hydras and defend with that and the lings. Havent lost to that push with his style yet as it is really strong, and you dont make more then those initial hydras so I feel it doesnt put you all that behind. Transition well into this banerain style, mutas or even infestor fast hive. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-265746.jpg) | ||
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OnFire
324 Posts
He used to have insane control with it, using only Ling/blings and drop. MorroW also did this for some time, not sure if he does it anymore, though. | ||
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ThePlayer33
Australia2378 Posts
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SweKenZo
Sweden82 Posts
but what do u guys think gas should go to, and in what order? speed/1+1/blingnest/lair? and also; how do u feel about rushing the upgrades? getting them at about 5-6 mins? thoughts? | ||
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BatesC
United States175 Posts
On June 20 2012 03:18 sYnSiLenCe wrote: the build, which is written here is slightly wrong. it is: 15 pool 16 hatch AND AFTER THE HATCH THE OVERLORD On June 20 2012 20:09 ThePlayer33 wrote: LOL wow the op is so reliable 15 OL 16 hatch you just lost all the credibility in your thread It's entirely based on how toss delays the natural, this is the most optimal way of doing it if he doesn't pylon block and just probe blocks. Dimaga only actually varies from the current metagame in this area by making 2 sets of lings and double expanding. Rather than expanding straight to his third (Should a pylon block occur). | ||
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
and after lair is finished you can transition in infestor, blingdrop, muta, roaches etc. ling bling is even nice vs blink all ins since he either has to clump his stalker so blings rape them or split them so lings gets awesome surround. FUCK DEM ROACHES! :D | ||
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BriTadeb
France23 Posts
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Chinesewonder
Canada354 Posts
I do have a few questions though. How does this deal with 2 base all ins? You don't get baneling speed or drops in time IMO for some timings like 6 gate. I want to try this, but I'm not sure how you deal with 2 base timings, especially since they are hard to hold off without roaches. If I recall mana beat dimaga using 2 base timings in dreamhack? I could be wrong though, even though I'm in masters my ZvP is atrocious and I have no comprehension of the match up at all. | ||
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Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
I did this style back a long time ago when every zerg was getting destroyed by stalker/sentry/colossus. it's good, but it's not really a style, it's more of a build. in the current metagame, where toss players are focusing on taking a third with sentry/immortal (with the stephano style roach max in mind) this build looks very, very powerful. against other things that toss can do, it's not so good. surprisingly, it's pretty safe against very fast gate attacks. it's not so safe against 2 base archon timings, air openings, 2 base timings that hit right before drop, very chokey maps, etc. people end up thinking this is a fully fleshed style that has divergences and can deal with everything toss can do. in my opinion, it's not. it's really more of a timing attack. a very good one at that. | ||
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TranceKuja
United States154 Posts
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PieTaster
52 Posts
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Najda
United States3765 Posts
On June 21 2012 09:33 TranceKuja wrote: Archon/zealot kills this style pretty easy, but it loses to roaches(which are popular right now). Yea this build used to be very popular and then people figured out going Archon/Zealot is effective against it right as the patch hit which changed how unloading banelings on a clustered group of units works. It used to just drop them regardless of available space but now it will wait until there is available space or drop it at the edge. Another key aspect to this build is a fast hive because ling/bane/infestor doesn't last that long against blinkstalker + collosus. Of course, I'm referring to the old way it was done because I'm not familiar wth how dimaga does it now. On June 21 2012 10:12 PieTaster wrote: Is there anyone who knows how to position/engage with this? Do you send lings first for a surround then rain over the army? Do you send fake overlords first and then send in the rain and lings at the same time? Do you lob infested terrans out and fungal the army so it can't escape before attacking? I try to engage with everything at the same time, from multiple angles if possible. The lings need to take damage away from the overlords but you want to get the overlords in there ASAP to kill the sentries to prevent the forcefields. Infestor's fungal just helps bring it all together. | ||
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