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Personal attacks in this thread will draw a temp ban. |
On March 28 2011 07:30 Tynan wrote:
You HAVE to bluff with a certain randomized frequency or you'll get exploited, even if your normal play is phenomenal. Same thing in Starcraft.
This would be true if SC had randomness/hidden information in itself. The question is: Has it?
If you scout and micro perfectly, then randomness is 0.
But, as this is not so, it has a lot of randomness in my opinion. I have heard Idra saying a lot of times that worse players beat him because they play the random game (cheese, risky risky strats).
I'd like to think that Idra understands that it's impossible to reach the 0 randomness point, that randomness is inherent to the game and that you have to deal with it.
I wouldn't call the solution to bluff or even to not always do the same build, this is not poker.
There's a better solution: Perfect scouting, perfect mechanics and of course, perfect responses to everything your opponent is doing.
That's Idra's aspiration, and that's why he gets pissed off when the opponents sneak something cheesy or when they exploit something which hasn't have a discovered response (void rays/collosi ball).
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On March 28 2011 07:23 ratMortar wrote:
IdrA's ability to macro and multitask is phenomenal. Though instead of saying macro is his style, I feel more comfortable saying he plays a solid style. The way he plays, he rarely takes big risks and simply relies on outplaying his opponent.
Seriusly? Building drones when your opponent is comming is not a risk?
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On March 28 2011 07:41 Spekulatius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 07:37 Cynexyst wrote:
Weird how all the people saying cruncher outplayed idra are getting banned, but people that whine about FF's or balance aren't. I HIGHLY doubt what you say there is even close to being true. And if it is, then just because the mods aren't fast enough to skim the 400 pages of the LR thread that I guess you're referring to. Btw, relevance of this post to a fan club thread? edit: god I'm too tired to write. That TSL weekend was exhausting 
I was talking about these, in this thread:
jesus pvz is so disgusting
LMFAO AT CRUNCHER
this game IS TERRIBLE.
Its unbelievable how bad Cruncher actually is. He would use a 6 gate. Terrible player
Forcefields are retarded.
FF is so op protoss is ezmode
fuck cruncher and all these fag field using noobs
Make forcefields.Kill zerg.
Aaaaaand now we can go back to talking about how fucked zerg is.
Like I said, all of these were in this very thread. So apparently it's ok to cry about imbalance in this thread but not anywhere else?
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On March 28 2011 07:59 vmendi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 07:30 Tynan wrote:
You HAVE to bluff with a certain randomized frequency or you'll get exploited, even if your normal play is phenomenal. Same thing in Starcraft.
This would be true if SC had randomness/hidden information in itself. The question is: Has it? If you scout and micro perfectly, then randomness is 0. But, as this is not so, it has a lot of randomness in my opinion. I have heard Idra saying a lot of times that worse players beat him because they play the random game (cheese, risky risky strats). I'd like to think that Idra understands that it's impossible to reach the 0 randomness point, that randomness is inherent to the game and that you have to deal with it. I wouldn't call the solution to bluff or even to not always do the same build, this is not poker. There's a better solution: Perfect scouting, perfect mechanics and of course, perfect responses to everything your opponent is doing. That's Idra's aspiration, and that's why he gets pissed off when the opponents sneak something cheesy or when they exploit something which hasn't have a discovered response (void rays/collosi ball).
Emphasis mine above.
The idea of the "perfect response" is telling. In a game of simultaneous moves or incomplete information, the perfect response isn't always the same thing.
Go on wikipedia and look up the idea of mixed-strategy Nash equilibria some time. In real games, the perfect response is to randomly choose between several possible actions at different frequencies.
A simple example is rock paper scissors. What is the perfect strategy? It is to play 33% of each move in a totally random pattern. Any deviation from this can be exploited and beaten by an opponent who plays the same move every time.
IdrA needs to learn to understand this. Chance is part of the game, it is inseparable from the fact that the game involves incomplete information and simultaneous moves. There is no guaranteed win, there is only having "the best of it", the best chance of winning across all games and all possible outcomes.
In poker, you MUST bluff with some frequency or you will be exploited.
In Starcraft, you MUST rush or cheese with some frequency or you will be exploited.
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On March 28 2011 07:49 Elementsu wrote:
Whats holding him back is playing zerg,i don`t get why someone who hates cheeses/allins and other cheap tactics plays zerg, or do you honestly believe he lost that gsl series to Jinro because he got outplayed?
What was holding him back in Brood War then?
Absolutely nothing changed in his approach to the game, opponents, and the way he sees the game for years now, and it's all been well documented on TL. So it can't be SC2. What gives?
Do you really think he would be playing differently and people wouldn't abuse him if he switched to a different race? He already switched to a different game and still plays with the same, stubborn mindset that literally kills him. As Terran he would just be getting 4 Gated, DT rushed and Baneling busted instead, but nothing would really change.
And Morrow seemed to be doing quite nice against Jinro. Despite the popular opinion today, people lose at Starcraft because they get outplayed (or occasionally unlucky, but mostly it's just outplayed).
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On March 28 2011 08:00 PET wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 07:23 ratMortar wrote:
IdrA's ability to macro and multitask is phenomenal. Though instead of saying macro is his style, I feel more comfortable saying he plays a solid style. The way he plays, he rarely takes big risks and simply relies on outplaying his opponent.
Seriusly? Building drones when your opponent is comming is not a risk?
Any decision to drone up or build army is a risky decision for a Zerg, and be it only in the long run.
And every time you see someone moving out, you can't be sure if it is just a feigned attack or the real thing. The warping pylon was out of sight, so IdrA decided to drone. From the information he had, it was the wise choice.
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On March 28 2011 07:49 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 07:23 ratMortar wrote:
IdrA's ability to macro and multitask is phenomenal. Though instead of saying macro is his tyle, I fell more comfortable saying he plays a solid style. The way he plays, he rarely takes big risks and simply relies on outplaying his opponent. Or so he would have you believe. Idra's style means playing against what he thinks his opponent should do, and if everything goes like he imagined it would go, he sometimes wins. If that doesn't happen, he lost because his opponent did not play the game "right" or played "risky" or, an additional excuse he's been blessed with since SC2 release, because of "imbalance" - incidentally, his flaws and inability to perform were identical in BW as well. Look up some of the older threads from BW days on TL for a somewhat clearer overview. I'm surprised people actually expect him to do good, especially since he seems even more angry at everything in SC2 than he was before. He might have gained some exposure in a (young) SC2 scene and some new fans with everything going more mainstream, but when it comes to winning things in the future, I wouldn't hold my breath. He hasn't changed a single bit in all these years, he still has the same warped mindset, loses for the exact same reasons and still deals with losses horribly wrong. Seems like raw mechanics and training hours have taken him as far as possible in SC2 as well now.
Wasn't IdrA dominating the foreign scene in BW before moving to Korea? And it's not like IdrA hasn't achieved anything in SC2. He's actually one of its most accomplished players.
And to say he won't develop into a better player over time is highly debatable. You could have said that way back in the beta when they nerfed roaches but he still hung around. Same thing when he lost IEM cologne to Morrow.
I'm not really sure what your argument was though. I praised his excellent mechanics, are you saying they're not excellent? Because I'm sure there's a ton of pros that would disagree.''
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On March 28 2011 08:06 Cynexyst wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 07:41 Spekulatius wrote:On March 28 2011 07:37 Cynexyst wrote:
Weird how all the people saying cruncher outplayed idra are getting banned, but people that whine about FF's or balance aren't. I HIGHLY doubt what you say there is even close to being true. And if it is, then just because the mods aren't fast enough to skim the 400 pages of the LR thread that I guess you're referring to. Btw, relevance of this post to a fan club thread? edit: god I'm too tired to write. That TSL weekend was exhausting I was talking about these, in this thread: Show nested quote +Its unbelievable how bad Cruncher actually is. He would use a 6 gate. Terrible player Like I said, all of these were in this very thread. So apparently it's ok to cry about imbalance in this thread but not anywhere else?
Hm... most of them actually violate the forum guidelines. I assume the mods are still busy in the LR thread. I'd be surprised if they actually allowed such posting, even though they might be slightly more tolerant since this is IdrA's thread. Dunno.
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On March 28 2011 08:08 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 07:49 Elementsu wrote:
Whats holding him back is playing zerg,i don`t get why someone who hates cheeses/allins and other cheap tactics plays zerg, or do you honestly believe he lost that gsl series to Jinro because he got outplayed? What was holding him back in Brood War then? Absolutely nothing changed in his approach to the game, opponents, and the way he sees the game for years now, and it's all been well documented on TL. So it can't be SC2. What gives? Do you really think he would be playing differently and people wouldn't abuse him if he switched to a different race? He already switched to a different game and still plays with the same, stubborn mindset that literally kills him. As Terran he would just be getting 4 Gated, DT rushed and Baneling busted instead, but nothing would really change. And Morrow seemed to be doing quite nice against Jinro. Despite the popular opinion today, people lose at Starcraft because they get outplayed (or occasionally unlucky, but mostly it's just outplayed).
At least terran can laugh at all these strats you mentioned, and nothing was holding IdrA back in BW,he was arguably the best foreigner, he just has a bad mindset, one that doesn`t fit zerg very well. Oh and MorroW didn`t get close metalopolis, jungle basin and lost temple.
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Could someone inform me why IdrA refuses to switch races? I understand he prefers zerg play style, and I understand he has invested so much time in zerg, but honestly neither of those things justifies getting continuously crushed by exploitive gimmicks like massing void rays. I mean looking at the long run, I don't see why he doesn't reach this conclusion. I've decided to switch after this ladder reset and I know many other zerg's who are following suit. And don't tell me he has "self-respect" that joke is old.
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On March 28 2011 08:00 PET wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 07:23 ratMortar wrote:
IdrA's ability to macro and multitask is phenomenal. Though instead of saying macro is his style, I feel more comfortable saying he plays a solid style. The way he plays, he rarely takes big risks and simply relies on outplaying his opponent.
Seriusly? Building drones when your opponent is comming is not a risk?
It certainly is, but what if Cruncher just poked and pulled back? It's a common protoss strategy to force a zerg player to waste larva. IdrA would have fallen far behind if that had happened and he would have lost anyway. By the time he realized the attack was all-in the drones were already in production, canceling them would have been pointless.
As I argued about this before, this game was really more about him not having been able to scout.
You can also argue that it was a straight up mistake and IdrA deserved to lose that game.
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Seeing Idra's BM in the Game Setup chat completely 180'ed my opinion of Cruncher's 
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Step 1: Approach match as walkover
Step 2: Lose
Step 3: Rage
Lesson: no matter how good you are, take the ppl you play seriously.
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IdrA PLEASE SWITCH TO PROTOSS.
You are a great and very talented player-one of the best(anyone who isn't in troll mode or just hates you for some random reason can see that).
Sure it would take awhile to get it back up to the level your at but just smurf it for a month man. you would dominate so hard as a macro toss...it would be fucking scary.
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On March 28 2011 08:19 Elementsu wrote:
At least terran can laugh at all these strats you mentioned, and nothing was holding IdrA back in BW,he was arguably the best foreigner, he just has a bad mindset, one that doesn`t fit zerg very well. Oh and MorroW didn`t get close metalopolis, jungle basin and lost temple.
A Terran can, but I'll bet you anything in the world that Idra won't.
In BW he was arguably the best foreigner for like 6 months, and the only foreigner with long term professional training, yet still managed to fail spectacularly against players who took extended breaks from the game and had nowhere near the same level of training as he did.
Not to mention that he failed spectacularly in Korea as well. Unlike the current SC2 scene, Korea was the only relevant benchmark for a professional player. Winning some foreigner tournaments with the training conditions he had isn't at all that impressive really. The scene was nowhere near as competitive as it is today.
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On March 28 2011 08:42 starcraft2rush wrote:
IdrA PLEASE SWITCH TO PROTOSS.
You are a great and very talented player-one of the best(anyone who isn't in troll mode or just hates you for some random reason can see that).
Sure it would take awhile to get it back up to the level your at but just smurf it for a month man. you would dominate so hard as a macro toss...it would be fucking scary.
You spelled Terran wrong :D
Jokes aside, I definitely think he should heavily consider switching. He'd get good in a reasonably short amount of time, and then maybe have a better outlook on things.
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Haha you people. 11 more pages eh? He may have lost, but he's still #winning.
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On March 28 2011 08:43 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 08:19 Elementsu wrote:
At least terran can laugh at all these strats you mentioned, and nothing was holding IdrA back in BW,he was arguably the best foreigner, he just has a bad mindset, one that doesn`t fit zerg very well. Oh and MorroW didn`t get close metalopolis, jungle basin and lost temple.
A Terran can, but I'll bet you anything in the world that Idra won't. In BW he was arguably the best foreigner for like 6 months, and the only foreigner with long term professional training, yet still managed to fail spectacularly against players who took extended breaks from the game and had nowhere near the same level of training as he did. Not to mention that he failed spectacularly in Korea as well. Unlike the current SC2 scene, Korea was the only relevant benchmark for a professional player. Winning some foreigner tournaments with the training conditions he had isn't at all that impressive really. The scene was nowhere near as competitive as it is today.
As i have said he had a bad mindset in BW (still has in SC2 but this isn`t his biggest problem now), but no one can argue he isn`t a good player. Also this is the IdrA fanclub, not the best place to bash him like you`re doing.
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Meh, it was idra's own fault for losing g1 and g3... g1 zergs already know that on the old shakuras plateau, pvz is extremely difficult when they forge fe and go collosus voidray and you have to trade armies to counter this - drops/muta switches/roach corruptor using the gas you would have used on hydras into corruptors to just keep killing voids/collosus are 3 ways of dealing with this. What i don't know is why idra didn't decide to do this... i have seen him beat this exact same strategy on cross positions on his stream using roach corruptor
g3 he made drones after seeing a large gateway army coming at him, which didn't make any sense to me... based on the stalker heavy composition he could have deterred that that was at least 5gateways. cruncher obviously made hallucination to trick idra since you usually get this upgrade when you intend to tech after expanding with 3gate sentry and the terrain is extremely good for warpgate rushes since it is easy to put very protected pylons on the cliffs and the expansion outside the main is very wide open.
it sucks that idra lost because imo he is the better player, but in these games he deserved to lose and now hes out
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On March 28 2011 08:53 xaneda wrote:
Meh, it was idra's own fault for losing g1 and g3... g1 zergs already know that on the old shakuras plateau, pvz is extremely difficult when they forge fe and go collosus voidray and you have to trade armies to counter this - drops/muta switches/roach corruptor using the gas you would have used on hydras into corruptors to just keep killing voids/collosus are 3 ways of dealing with this. What i don't know is why idra didn't decide to do this... i have seen him beat this exact same strategy on cross positions on his stream using roach corruptor
g3 he made drones after seeing a large gateway army coming at him, which didn't make any sense to me... based on the stalker heavy composition he could have deterred that that was at least 5gateways. cruncher obviously made hallucination to trick idra since you usually get this upgrade when you intend to tech after expanding with 3gate sentry and the terrain is extremely good for warpgate rushes since it is easy to put very protected pylons on the cliffs and the expansion outside the main is very wide open.
it sucks that idra lost because imo he is the better player, but in these games he deserved to lose and now hes out
Cruncher getting hallucination doesn't mean he wouldn't just all-in off 5/6 gateways, also have you never heard of feigning pressure?
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EPT
