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GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On May 17 2011 04:36 Foolishness wrote: Are we really going to try to base a plan around rigging the votes and getting a votecheck? What happened to "let's treat this as a normal game until someone claims"? I notice you voted incognito, is there a reason behind that? | ||
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
On May 17 2011 04:41 GMarshal wrote: I notice you voted incognito, is there a reason behind that? Yeah easy. I played a mini mafia game with him. He was a medic. He was very outspoken and fairly aggressive. One of his firsts post in the game: + Show Spoiler + On May 14 2011 13:30 Incognito wrote: List of invisible posters: GMarshal Kitaman27 tnkted Bum's post is on spot. Fortunately, I already mapped out some stuff. PYP Insane Game Plan The optimal picking strategy revolves around this cute little role: This role obsoletes the PYP1 and PYP3 role picking strategies. The mere existence of the thief on the role list means that it would be seriously harmful for mafia to know where the good roles are. Of course, it’s a no brainer that the good roles are in the beginning part of the list. So my only advice is that if you’re in the beginning of the list, seriously consider picking a role such as NRA member or Meth Man to deter the mafia from hitting/stealing roles from the top of the list. Due to the fact that the mafia can coordinate numbers with each other while the town can’t, it is very likely that mafia will get a spot within the top 3. As shown by the past PYP games, mafia has gotten the first or second spot in all 3 games. Which means town will likely have to be on the defensive, as it is hard to guarantee that we can effectively deny mafia the thief role. The amount of potential KP in this game is huge. This means that there is a huge potential for the game to end quickly. The basic town strategy should be to avoid KP roles, while going heavy on investigative and defensive roles to try to prolong the game. Tier I Roles Mafia 2 Detective + Vote Rigger Inventor Chuiu Jack Modern Detective Role Cop Bullet Bill PYP3 Veteran Doctor Bulletproof Mafia 2 Detective combined with the Vote Rigger is a combo that allows us to break up the town into chunks and analyze with greater ease. The formula is simple. The Vote Rigger rigs the Day 1 Vote into 4 roughly equal blocks with 7, 6, 6, and 5 voters each. All the lurkers/suspicious people are piled onto one list, and the Modern Detective uses his vote check to check one vote block each day, starting with the lurkers. Town then proceeds to analyze the split lists, allowing for more focused analyses. The rest of the investigative roles are used to sort through the lists, while the defensive roles prolong the game and squeeze the mafia. The Mafia will want these roles Kingmaker + Politician Thief Caller Godfather Roleblocker Janitor JailKeeper Puppeteer Hero PYP3 Veteran NRA Member CPR Doctor The best mafia combo pick is Kingmaker + Politician. This effectively gives mafia an unlimited anonymous unblockable dayvig power, capable of sniping off all the top town players. Caller Godfather is also an obvious mafia role. As anyone who’s read Caller’s Mafia V knows, Godfather recruiting high level townies with good roles is a town’s worst nightmare. Denying this role is iffy, as a mafia thief has plenty of time to try to find the role and steal it before it can actually be of use. Jailkeeper, roleblocker, and NRA member are powerful roles for the mafia that prevent investigations, and potentially save mafia from NKs. Hero and PYP 3 veteran cause town pain when mafia slip out of lynches and snipe off a townie. Lastly, puppeteer is surprisingly useful for a good mafia arguer, as it allows them to anonymously mislead town and cause tons of chaos in the thread. However, the most critical roles that we need to deny are the Thief, Politician, Jailkeeper, and Roleblocker. Due to the threat of a mafia thief, we can’t discuss precise strategy here, but townies should strongly consider picking one of these 4 roles. By the way KillerSOS is mafia. Also Node is mafia. That's kinda what I expect out of Incognito (although this post is a bit passive for my taste). In the mini game he made a lot of posts like this. This game the rest of his posts are mostly one liners. Particularly, he got really quiet after the draft order and picking. He's clearly got something to hide that he doesn't want the town to know about. Either he got some great role and wants to hide with it, or more simply he's mafia. No plans for vote rigging or checking. Let's scum hunt. | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
This is a quote from one of Incognito's post game wrap-ups: So rough recap of town’s goals: 1) Get useful information. Provide an accusation with reasoning. Generate discussion by pointing out interesting details and irregularities in people’s posts and find out why players feel that way. Don’t let people off the hook for bizarre statements. You want to know what they’re thinking and why. 2) Create an ideal atmosphere. You don’t want an atmosphere of confusion, mistrust, and doubt. You want an atmosphere of clarity, direction, and focus. 3) Figure out your plans/direction. Mafia don’t give themselves up that easily. Town needs to establish methods of finding and systematically destroying mafia. This ties into the next point: 4) Bully the town to your way of thinking. Coupled with strong analysis, you need to ensure that the mafia fear you and that you can command influence. Make sure nobody can stay neutral, so that you can increase your influence while weeding out scum. Incognito so far has decided to do pretty much the opposite of this so far. Maybe he's the VI, maybe he's playing above my level, but so far his play has been very contradictory to points 1 or 2. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
No plans for vote rigging or checking. Let's scum hunt.[/QUOTE] This. On May 17 2011 02:54 Ace wrote: I think right now it's best to just get a few main suspects, and then attempt to split all of our votes between them. Scummiest gets the lynch, vote checking DT gets a few lists. How is this different than what we would do anyways? Would you mind contributing? You wanted to sleep when the town was making plans, and that bugs me. You are the most skilled player as mafia in this game, and that means that you, better than anyone else can figure out what the mafia is most likely to do. I was really hoping that you would put some of that skill forward and help with plans. At any rate, the day is started and it's time to wake up. | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
As far as our day 1 lynch goes, we need to be wary of the Copy Cat role. I think in both PYP games I've played, copy cat was taken by mafia. With a town strategy of role denial, this is again a likely choice for mafia. As such, I think the top players in the draft should not be the focus of our Day 1 lynch. I also realize that I'm in the top part of the draft, so my bias is clear, but hopefully my reasoning makes sense. Therefore, if you want to build a case against someone in the top 6-8 picks(as I do), I recommend you wait until Day 2, when the Copy Cat role has been allocated. | ||
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
On May 17 2011 05:05 Radfield wrote: It's possible that the reason Incognito is proposing his vote rigging plan is because he took the M2DT role and wants the vote rigger to follow his plan. Either way, that's for the vote rigger to decide, so there's no point in discussing it. As far as our day 1 lynch goes, we need to be wary of the Copy Cat role. I think in both PYP games I've played, copy cat was taken by mafia. With a town strategy of role denial, this is again a likely choice for mafia. As such, I think the top players in the draft should not be the focus of our Day 1 lynch. I also realize that I'm in the top part of the draft, so my bias is clear, but hopefully my reasoning makes sense. Therefore, if you want to build a case against someone in the top 6-8 picks(as I do), I recommend you wait until Day 2, when the Copy Cat role has been allocated. Incognito is third to last on the draft order, no way he got one of those two roles. And as someone already pointed out, the obscene amount of number collisions on the bottom half of the draft give way to the idea that most mafia are probably in the top half. Someone said this is a wifom argument, which I have to strongly disagree with. In a game like this with imba roles and a near unlimited amount of imba combo's, would mafia really pick the same numbers so as to possibly construct a wifom argument in the late game to save them from getting lynched? Heck no. If this was a normal PYP game I could potentially see the merit in this, but not in this game. If the mafia spread out and get a lot of members in the top 5 or slots (which very well may be the case this game) they could easily grab some imba combo a win in 2 or 3 days. It's pointless for us to sit here and speculate what kind of imba combo's the mafia might have, but we should definitely assume that 1) there are very many of them and 2) they probably have one. | ||
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
On May 17 2011 04:48 Foolishness wrote: No plans for vote rigging or checking. Let's scum hunt. This. On May 17 2011 02:54 Ace wrote: I think right now it's best to just get a few main suspects, and then attempt to split all of our votes between them. Scummiest gets the lynch, vote checking DT gets a few lists. How is this different than what we would do anyways? Would you mind contributing? You wanted to sleep when the town was making plans, and that bugs me. You are the most skilled player as mafia in this game, and that means that you, better than anyone else can figure out what the mafia is most likely to do. I was really hoping that you would put some of that skill forward and help with plans. At any rate, the day is started and it's time to wake up. I was hoping that this wouldn't become an issue, but I can see that it is, and since the mafia will likely try to hide behind it, I want to deal with it asap: On May 17 2011 04:17 GMarshal wrote: ...In this roster of players the majority are experienced people I haven't played with in the past. Incog, fw, dreamflower, etc, are all players I know to be excellent, and who I don't really have a meta read on because they haven't played in a while, so I really don't know how to handle them. Maybe intimidation is not the word, I just don't really have a handle on the situation yet. Also I'm terrified of running afoul of Ver's "don't spam" rule, so I'm trying to make each one of my posts at least somewhat substantial, rather than replying to every post I see/ No. This is a misconception, and I think you know it. These players are known as good players, and time has since turned them into legends. Yes, they are good, but no they are not gods. Don't treat them that way. I don't plan on letting any of them get away with no contribution, or one-liners, and neither should you. I will say it again, even with all the vets, this is not the townie GMarshal I know. That line about not wanting to spam is BS, and you know it. Let ver tell you if you are spamming, but until then start contributing. On May 17 2011 04:39 Caller wrote: i'm going to ignore all of your posts to say this: Nope. Not letting you get away with that. There are a lot of vets in this game, and if we start getting complacent about this style of play, it will be our downfall. "i'm going to ignore all of your posts" is an extremely anti-town attitude. Part of the game is reading the thread, so get with it. I'm not going to say anything if I don't need to say it. And quite frankly, I don't see a need to start jabbing at suspects on day 1, the day where historically we're most likely going to end up lynching a townie. I'll let you guys run rampant for a bit because I'm not familiar with a lot of you guyz posting styles. this is how I roll. Regardless of whether historically day 1 is a good or bad lynch, pointing fingers are "jabbing at suspects" is generating information. The whole reason why day 1 is a hard lynch is because there's not enough information, and you are suggesting that we stop one of our primary sources? That's exactly what the mafia want. They want nothing meaningful to happen day one so that there's nothing to go on day 2. The game started a long time ago, and we have tons of information to start pressuring people with. That generates more information which we use to pressure more people with. If I say something, pay close attention to it. This game isn't about roles, its about peoples, so trying to play to roles is silly. Sure roles are nice and all, but its not mafia if there was no serious analysis done. And trying to do Day 1 analysis without any other information is stupid. I completely agree. If we rely on roles we are doomed from the beginning. It doesn't matter how big of a mod PYPI is on the normal mafia, the game is still about analysis. To say that we shouldn't start analyzing day 1 is ridiculous, and will deny us of some of the juiciest information that we can get our hands on: Reactions and strong opinions. I will say it again, we start scum hunting NOW. Not day 2, not once someone claims, not when ace wakes up. With all the power roles in this game, it's going to be moving fast, and we need to work hard to keep up with it. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
On May 17 2011 05:05 Radfield wrote: It's possible that the reason Incognito is proposing his vote rigging plan is because he took the M2DT role and wants the vote rigger to follow his plan. Either way, that's for the vote rigger to decide, so there's no point in discussing it. As far as our day 1 lynch goes, we need to be wary of the Copy Cat role. I think in both PYP games I've played, copy cat was taken by mafia. With a town strategy of role denial, this is again a likely choice for mafia. As such, I think the top players in the draft should not be the focus of our Day 1 lynch. I also realize that I'm in the top part of the draft, so my bias is clear, but hopefully my reasoning makes sense. Therefore, if you want to build a case against someone in the top 6-8 picks(as I do), I recommend you wait until Day 2, when the Copy Cat role has been allocated. In addition we need to worry about the VI. That would be a popular role as I see it, and If someone up high didn't pick it. In general I think we need to be careful about lynching the higher ups if not altogether avoiding it for at least the first day. | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
I'm not saying that the mafia definitely clashed, but simply that there are decent reasons for a couple mafia players to do so. Also the fact that ~5 players picked [4] and ~5 players picked [9] makes it slightly more likely in my mind that mafia clashed with themselves on purpose. blah blah blah wifom blah wifom. Arggg. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
Chaoser[2][2] Flamewheel[3][3] Wiggles[4][2] KillerSOS[5][11] Of those Wiggles seems the scummiest, so I'll look into him first. | ||
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GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On May 17 2011 05:27 Kavdragon wrote: In addition we need to worry about the VI. That would be a popular role as I see it, and If someone up high didn't pick it. In general I think we need to be careful about lynching the higher ups if not altogether avoiding it for at least the first day. We don't need to worry about the VI in the sense that its irrelevant if we lynch him as we don't lose, its obviously better that we lynch mafia, but if someone is acting scummy we should not refrain from lynching them out of fear that they are the VI, in my opinion at least. On lynching the higher ups, again I think its a matter of how sure we are, if we are pretty sure someone is scum then I don't think we need to worry about them being a "power role" as long as we believe them them to be mafia. At the very least we can start to build cases against them for tomorrow, even if we decide to avoid lynching them for today. @Radfeild and clashing, I think it best if we assume that the mafia would not *intentionally* clash, thus if we find a mafia in a group of numbers its less than likely that they have another team member in the same number cluster. I like Kav's current idea, while he looks into wiggles I'll look into KillerSOS | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On May 17 2011 04:36 Foolishness wrote: Are we really going to try to base a plan around rigging the votes and getting a votecheck? What happened to "let's treat this as a normal game until someone claims"? going this route is going to force a claim  | ||
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GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
KillerSOS So, I did a search of all his posts in order to find any posts that were relevant to analyze, looking for something juicy. There is exactly nothing, he has posted nothing but one liners. I'll pull out the ones that seem relevant, but theres *nothing* there. Here are some examples of his great contributions + Show Spoiler [great contributions!] + On May 14 2011 10:28 KillerSOS wrote: Well I'm going with two mid range numbers. Dare you to guess them. Completely irrelevant post, also not true he picked [5] IIRC, which is not really midrange, usless post On May 15 2011 17:03 KillerSOS wrote: I like how 13 was near the top. Interesting. Contribution = 0 On May 16 2011 16:15 KillerSOS wrote: I also believe that clashes in numbers won't be that useful this early in the game. I'm sure that the mafia are smart enough to grab some top slots, while at the same time randomizing the other half of their members. First game relevant post, and all it does is shoot down a decent idea, without actually contributing anything, bravo, so far my "lurker" radar is going nuts. On May 17 2011 03:10 KillerSOS wrote: I think it's fairly obvious that you are just spitting out nonsense. Would you like to explain yourself? People are accusing me, quickly demand an explanation of why they think that my 8 posts are all contentless one liners! KillerSOS is lurking, and I've made my stance on lurkers clear in the past, hang them all! ##Vote KillerSOS Get in here and contribute or hang by the neck till dead, I'd rather you did the former, but if you refuse I have no issue hanging you for it. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
On May 17 2011 05:36 GMarshal wrote: We don't need to worry about the VI in the sense that its irrelevant if we lynch him as we don't lose, its obviously better that we lynch mafia, but if someone is acting scummy we should not refrain from lynching them out of fear that they are the VI, in my opinion at least. On lynching the higher ups, again I think its a matter of how sure we are, if we are pretty sure someone is scum then I don't think we need to worry about them being a "power role" as long as we believe them them to be mafia. At the very least we can start to build cases against them for tomorrow, even if we decide to avoid lynching them for today. @Radfeild and clashing, I think it best if we assume that the mafia would not *intentionally* clash, thus if we find a mafia in a group of numbers its less than likely that they have another team member in the same number cluster. I like Kav's current idea, while he looks into wiggles I'll look into KillerSOS You misunderstand my idea though, I want people to build their own lists so that they have to put their own ideas out there. I put out my opinion that the mafia would likely go 2,3,4,5,(,6), and then from those numbers I said who I though was the most suspicious. Make your own list, tell us who you think is most suspicious. Don't sheep behind my list, it's the safe thing to do if you want to hide something. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On May 17 2011 05:04 Kavdragon wrote: QUOTE]On May 17 2011 04:48 Foolishness wrote: No plans for vote rigging or checking. Let's scum hunt. This. On May 17 2011 02:54 Ace wrote: I think right now it's best to just get a few main suspects, and then attempt to split all of our votes between them. Scummiest gets the lynch, vote checking DT gets a few lists. How is this different than what we would do anyways? Would you mind contributing? You wanted to sleep when the town was making plans, and that bugs me. You are the most skilled player as mafia in this game, and that means that you, better than anyone else can figure out what the mafia is most likely to do. I was really hoping that you would put some of that skill forward and help with plans. At any rate, the day is started and it's time to wake up.[/QUOTE] are you going to pay me to do your work for you? On May 17 2011 04:41 Mr. Wiggles wrote: I would hope not. I say play this out normally, but pay attention to people who are randomly throwing single votes out and refuse to vote with any group. If that continues past one day, I'd say it's someone trying to avoid vote check. Actually Scum would want to vote with a group. If they don't they risk the possible chance of a group of confirmed townies by the DT. It's better for them and for the Town that people vote together. People voting alone are probably better off left to be checked by another investigation role. On May 17 2011 05:28 Radfield wrote: If I was mafia, I would want to collide my numbers with at least one, possibly two other mafia players. First, for whatever reason town players think this is unlikely. Second, there is very little downside for the mafia, they avoid the top of the list(where the most attention is focused) and still get whatever roles they want, as we have a huge no-pick list as town. Any non-super-vet near the bottom of the list will not likely be role-checked, so they safely have a good pro-mafia role, and some cover by clashing with each other. I'm not saying that the mafia definitely clashed, but simply that there are decent reasons for a couple mafia players to do so. Also the fact that ~5 players picked [4] and ~5 players picked [9] makes it slightly more likely in my mind that mafia clashed with themselves on purpose. blah blah blah wifom blah wifom. Arggg. Even taking out the Wifom argument: With so many good roles the Mafia probably don't care if they clashed. In the other PYP games with the town focusing on 3 or so "too good to be true roles" (silly I know) number clashing was a decent idea in separating Town from Scum. In this game with so many good roles it probably doesn't matter as much. On May 17 2011 05:32 Kavdragon wrote: If you're having a hard time coming up with someone that is scummy, try thinking up possible number combinations that the mafia used, and pick someone from that list. For instance, I think that they would play to get a top spot, so I expected them to go for something like 2,3,4,5. So I picked the people who stood out from those who chose those numbers and compiled a little scum team. Chaoser[2][2] Flamewheel[3][3] Wiggles[4][2] KillerSOS[5][11] Of those Wiggles seems the scummiest, so I'll look into him first. The hell is this shit? | ||
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Chezinu
United States7448 Posts
On May 17 2011 04:29 Kurumi wrote: That's why You voted on Chezinu? Looks like asking questions is forbidden,man this game is hard.'t justify his Chezinu vote. Is it pressure? A trick? A joke? Y R U so mafia? 1.bumatlarge -- I've been bumming off of him lately... so I will give him time.. 2.Foolishness -- I've got nothing... 3.kitaman27 - invent a man robot named 27 with you kit? 4.Chaoser -- Chaos is near... Let us put order to it! 5.Barundar -- run to the bar over dar? 6.Mr.Wiggles -- let's see you wiggle yourself out of this one... 7.GMarshal -- court marshaled? 8.Node -- got a hub? 9. Deconduo -- your one letter from defcon 2... he is so close to having nukes.. 10.Infinitestory -- this never ends... 11.Original Name -- Who are you? 12.tnkted -- I tnkted a lot about you.. 13. Flamewheel through his cohost powers he will rig his alignment to be townie -- he loves that he has never played as mafia way too much to give that away. 14. Radfield -- lynch first? 15. Kurumi -- Why U So mafia? 16. KillerSOS His name says it all.. Plus, I don't know him -- it is easy to kill people you don't know! 17. Eiii -- OOOO 18. Dreamflower -- Dream on! 19. Kavdragon -- you has treasure in that Kav? 20. Incognito -- allow me time to use my detective skills first k thanks... uh if your mafia I has not dt skills... honestly! you can see me right now right? Exactly! 21. Chezinu - most likely to be a brown mole if the alignments were rigged.. Cause I'm the King of the Brown State. I would wait until day 3 to find out if he is the mole cause he wants to wait and see for himself if it is true. Let him enjoy his laugh then kill him so that the two bombs he plants blows up! 22. Scamp - If bombs don't go off by me.. it has to be him... If he doesn't have any...He will invent some.. and give it to me! lololololol!! plz? 23. Ace - can't vote for him... He is my father.. 24. Caller -- who do you call? 25. Fishball -- you stink, but fun to kick around Step two: read the player list -- completed | ||
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
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Chezinu
United States7448 Posts
On May 04 2011 03:27 Ver wrote: Voting rules: 1. Voting is done (in a separate thread, located *here*). You must vote there in order to for the vote to be counted, but please vote in both threads. Do not PM me your vote. 2. Please vote in the following format: ##Vote Qatol. Votes not done in the correct fashion will not be counted. I will update vote counts whenever I get the chance. 3. No conditional voting. 4. You may not vote for yourself. You may not vote for anyone dead or outside the game. 5. In the event of a tie the person with the most votes first wins (or loses). 6. Voting is mandatory. You may NOT abstain. The link is broken... People please vote in both threads.. | ||
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