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@Omni
Don't talk about coaches. If we are not allowed to analyse coach claims, there is no point in using them to give emphasis. It's unverifiable and therefore meaningless. It is at best worthless fluff and at worst a deliberate appeal to authority to try and sway town towards your unsubstantiated opinions. A town would not want to do either (if your opinions are substantiated, you should be able to give reasons other than 'a coach agrees'.
@Corazon
No, your posts did little to influence me, though they did help me respect your position a little more. My response to your second post was an attempt to lead you into Mocsta's honey pot, so while an accurate perspective, it was not news to me. You took Mocsta's bait, but responded pretty will IMO. I think you ignored mine, which was also the right move.
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On January 05 2013 10:50 Spaghetticus wrote:
@Zare
Good post.
I do have solid reasoning for my switches, but would prefer not to post them now if people can figure them out themselves. I invite the scrutiny (it's inevitable). I like the direction of this analysis. I want Syl pushed, and am very happy with this information as a foundation.
I will most likely post an explanation of my behaviour later, but this should not stop you analysing my motives now. Your switch doesn't seem particularly scummy to me, but I have reason for bias in that I believe I changed for similar reasons.
I do not like this as a platform for analysis on TeMiL. He spouts nonsense and is in my eyes an empty slot. Nothing he has said has been influential, and thus if he is scum he is entirely ineffective at promoting his agenda. This does make me feel a little cross saying this, as I'd have liked him mod-killed, but if TeMiL is scum you won't catch him by analysing his posts, and by ignoring him you would be creating a town environment of 6/1, which is town favoured. If he is town then you are wasting your time on him, and the current numbers would be 5/2 regardless. My understanding gives no explanation of how I intend on actually catching him if he is scum, I guess I'm hoping that over time, we will have more information to work with.
If anyone wants to attack TeMiL, then I would request that they first address my reasoning above. My conclusion is that regardless of his alignment, there is currently no point in pursuing a case against TeMiL.
If Temil is scum, there is another teammate to worry about. All that needs to happen is that Temil listens to them, and bandwagon to the appropriate vote. It is not 6/1 as you say it is, it would still be 6/2. You have to remember that while he has no influence in our discussions, he still holds a vote. If he is scum, that is a potentially powerful vote.
If Temil is town, no one is guiding him. He will not be voting in a very rational manner, he will not be reading our posts and cases, instead making his own (as you can see from his posts, he has made a few random accusations at you and Jampi) and voting off that. This is NOT the situation we want to be in, because if we reach a stalemate during the next vote, we would have to see how Temil votes.
Assuming we have 2 scum and a townie on one person, and townies voting on town, we would be leaving it up to a 50/50 chance he understands the situation, and votes the right one. Not the best odds.
Taking it further if he is town: He probably won't be killed because he is a liability to town. You're now in a 3-2 situation. Do you want to have Temil be the decider of the game?
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After looking through StriX's filter, OE's accusations of StriX, and Mocsta's accusations against OE, I have come up with some analysis.
I could see how a town OE could see StriX as scum. StriX made a lot of scummy comments and actions, such as voting for TeMiL just because of the lurking, and saying that he is only an observer and wanting others to do the scumhunting for him so he can just sit around and give analysis on accusations. I could see this as scummy behavior (and I did).
However, I could see a scum picking on StriX as well. It doesn't take a genius to see that StriX's behavior was not convincingly town. He could be seen as an easy target to get the town to mislynch one of their own.
We shouldn't forgive OE for mislynching, but we shouldn't crucify him for it either. However, I will be watching him a bit more closely from now on.
On Mocsta's attack on OE: I feel like Mocsta was exaggerating a bit in his accusations by saying that OE had only talked about policy and fluff. I feel like this is too harsh on OE. The biggest issue I've had with it is the timing. One hour before the lynch? Was it that important to where it could have been saved for N1?
I want to hear more from Moc before I say anymore on his case, but that is what I've taken about the actions that have occured in the past few hours.
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In other news, we still have two lurkers: jampi and TiMeL. I worry that leaving either of them alone could spell disastrous in the long run, and even if they're not mafia town will constantly be wondering about those two lurkers and if they were mafia, leading to another mislynch. Something does have to happen to change their level of participation, because that's an enormous liability that will only get bigger as the game goes on.
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I think we learned a lot more with the last-minute analysis than we would have if it hadn't happened. In the chaos, the outcome didn't change, but we saw who felt pressure to vote where.
I still agree that it would be better if such were done earlier in the day, what with the time zone differences.
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On January 05 2013 11:17 zarepath wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 11:11 OmniEulogy wrote:
I've said multiple times a vote on TeMiL is wasted right now. I am trying to discern why you say that switching my vote from TeMiL to you is bad play. I personally think it was fine, but I would like to hear your reasoning and not necessarily because I'm trying to out you as scum with your answer.
it wasn't necessarily about the vote coming off TeMiL, I feel its more about not explaining yourself and just throwing it out there. If you are willing to go over why you changed your vote using your own reasoning and not just because of Mocsta's post I'd feel a lot better about it.
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And Spag if the mods have any issue with how I brought that up let it be known. It didn't break any rules though and it wasn't even about this game. I'm just letting him know exactly where my thought process behind why I found it a possibly scummy vote. There is no reason not to add that I had outside help in determining what to look for from a previous game.
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The Australians needed sleep, it was sort of unavoidable. As previously stated, I slept 6:00am until 9:30am in order to both give time for people, and be present to control lynch outcome. You can't expect everyone to do that, I don't have a job and Uni is out, so it's not such a big issue for me.
The lynch dance, while unsuccessful in landing a scumwhale, was very productive information wise, as has been mentioned by others. We now have a treasure trove of info on most players, so I expect an increase in aggression, as nobody has an excuse to not have reads now.
@Omni
I don't think the mods have a problem with claiming to have conversed with coaches, but as has already been established, they do have a problem with real analysis of the claim. I have a problem with you claiming to have spoken with coaches, for the reasons I have previously stated.
In regard to your 'soft buddy claim' on me, this is shocking. I honestly feel helpless in regard to this. It doesn't seem intentional, but I have the benefit of knowing we are not buddies. This in conjunction with my previous decidedly odd decision to not scumhunt you despite my suspicions of you, is basically aligning my fate with your flip.
I'm sorry to wash my hands of you in such a way, particularly since I believe your intention was to defend someone you read as town. I can't think of a scum motive for this action that doesn't come off a little far fetched though, which is good for me.
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I am back for about 30min, and then probably won't be back till about 8 hrs from End of Night.
Haven't read since I left (about p24) so don't even know who was lynched.
I will try to pop in for snippets between now and when i have proper spare time.
Please direct any questions for me, my way; I don't bite.
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You read that as a buddy thing? ...
On January 05 2013 04:33 OmniEulogy wrote:
Also spag I only read your last post as writing this and I have no idea what you are talking about. I think you have this made up illusion that I have something against you because of NMM XXXIII. Get over it. You are trying to get people to think that we can't agree on anything and that our opinions will always be different. As I know I am town, I can only see it as a move to try to divide townies and get us to lose faith in each other, please stop or I'll assume its scum motivated instead of you dwelling too much on the past.
I truthfully have no clue what goes on in your mind in regards to me personally and don't really care. You need to stop dwelling on what ever it is. I have a town read on you, that's all. why are you trying to make it seem weird? lol I also only mentioned we aren't a scum team. How you get overly defensive of that is a mystery on its own. You can be scum by yourself all you want, I just stated I'm not scum I'm town and if you are scum I'm not with you. Seriously stop trying to make things up between us it's getting really weird. lol
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On January 05 2013 09:55 OmniEulogy wrote:
I think TeMiL's case should be looked at during D2 and we need to put some serious attention on him. Get him to put down all his thoughts on what happened D1 during N1. We Need him to start contributing.
How convenient OE.
I havn't read the whole thread, but now know StriX was VT.
Cora /Spag better build some pressure/cases on you like that promised.
I am not going to let you target TeMiL to lower your suspicion.,
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How about you answer the questions given to you before you demand anything from us Moc.
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On January 05 2013 11:23 Sylencia wrote:
If Temil is scum, there is another teammate to worry about. All that needs to happen is that Temil listens to them, and bandwagon to the appropriate vote. It is not 6/1 as you say it is, it would still be 6/2. You have to remember that while he has no influence in our discussions, he still holds a vote. If he is scum, that is a potentially powerful vote.
If Temil is town, no one is guiding him. He will not be voting in a very rational manner, he will not be reading our posts and cases, instead making his own (as you can see from his posts, he has made a few random accusations at you and Jampi) and voting off that. This is NOT the situation we want to be in, because if we reach a stalemate during the next vote, we would have to see how Temil votes.
Assuming we have 2 scum and a townie on one person, and townies voting on town, we would be leaving it up to a 50/50 chance he understands the situation, and votes the right one. Not the best odds.
Taking it further if he is town: He probably won't be killed because he is a liability to town. You're now in a 3-2 situation. Do you want to have Temil be the decider of the game?
This is sound analysis, you are really speaking my language with this post.
His vote is actually more powerful since he doesn't have to justify it in any way.
In regard to influence it is 6/1, but in terms of voting it is more like 6/2.5 (2.5 is mean to represent TemiL's more powerful vote, it's more powerful than a single vote but not as powerful as two).
TeMiL holding the balance of power as town does not worry me. Scum has exactly the same handicap in their voting, they have no clue where his vote will land. Approximately the same options for circumvention are available to both scum and town. Scum have more solid powers of premeditation, and can therefore invest more into outcome certainty, but this commitment to a lynch comes at a price of providing information. For town, I know I will be micromanaging the lynch to ensure one of my reads goes down, and I expect other town will want to do the same.
You are correct in assessing TeMiL as a detriment to town, the question now becomes whether this negative is outweighed by anyone else's play.
Oh crap. There are no vigilantes this game. A vigikill would be perfect for this occasion. I have actually been hoping that there was a vigilante present and listening, but I guess this goes to show I should pay more attention to the OP. There are also no medics... This makes Mocsta's fate almost certain...
How frustrating.
Regardless, your analysis is impressive Syl, this improves your standing substantially in my eyes. I am wary of you deliberately catering to the known disposition of one of your threats, but that is good play for both town and scum.
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On January 05 2013 11:11 OmniEulogy wrote:
I'm not ignoring the votes on Jampi. I'm ruling out Syl for the time being and I couldn't even begin to guess at TeMiL. Who else has votes on them other than those two? I know you'd like to believe Spag and myself are both scum but you are wrong. Cora is also a null read at the moment.
And I already said why I wouldn't vote for TeMiL. I made my case against StriX... do you really not care who a vote gets placed on that much? Nothing in what you have just said makes much sense. "I switched from TeMiL because I saw a chance to change to you, Why weren't YOU voting for TeMiL?" really? I've said multiple times a vote on TeMiL is wasted right now.
You are stating you have information on me that you would not have as a townie. This is a soft claim, though I really can't think of an intent for town or scum.
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On January 05 2013 11:11 OmniEulogy wrote:
I'm not ignoring the votes on Jampi. I'm ruling out Syl for the time being and I couldn't even begin to guess at TeMiL. Who else has votes on them other than those two? I know you'd like to believe Spag and myself are both scum but you are wrong. Cora is also a null read at the moment.
And I already said why I wouldn't vote for TeMiL. I made my case against StriX... do you really not care who a vote gets placed on that much? Nothing in what you have just said makes much sense. "I switched from TeMiL because I saw a chance to change to you, Why weren't YOU voting for TeMiL?" really? I've said multiple times a vote on TeMiL is wasted right now.
Your case against StriX sucked. I commented about it in my case... you obviously didn't read it.
Cora null, you have got to be joking.
Cora is playing more pro-town than me; if you can't see that, you are obviously scum OmniEulogy.
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On January 05 2013 11:19 Spaghetticus wrote:
@Corazon
My response to your second post was an attempt to lead you into Mocsta's honey pot.
You took Mocsta's bait, but responded pretty will IMO. I think you ignored mine, which was also the right move.
On January 05 2013 11:19 Spaghetticus wrote:
You took Mocsta's bait, but responded pretty will IMO. I think you ignored mine, which was also the right move.
Spaghetticus, you are constantly inserting my name and scum in the same sentences.
I am not going to bother inserting the posts, because I would run out of page space...(read through the filter search Mocsta, and it is evident)
If you have a problem with me, and the way I am operating.. Call me out directly, and make a case.
Otherwise, you are trying to influence individuals in a deceptive manner. I think everyone can agree that is NOT town-like.
(For the record, I don't even know what your "honey-pot" is referring to)
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On January 05 2013 12:26 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 11:11 OmniEulogy wrote:
I'm not ignoring the votes on Jampi. I'm ruling out Syl for the time being and I couldn't even begin to guess at TeMiL. Who else has votes on them other than those two? I know you'd like to believe Spag and myself are both scum but you are wrong. Cora is also a null read at the moment.
And I already said why I wouldn't vote for TeMiL. I made my case against StriX... do you really not care who a vote gets placed on that much? Nothing in what you have just said makes much sense. "I switched from TeMiL because I saw a chance to change to you, Why weren't YOU voting for TeMiL?" really? I've said multiple times a vote on TeMiL is wasted right now. Your case against StriX sucked. I commented about it in my case... you obviously didn't read it. Cora null, you have got to be joking. Cora is playing more pro-town than me; if you can't see that, you are obviously scum OmniEulogy.
do you know how to post facts or only your personal opinions mocsta? So far this game its a severe letdown. Cora's been playing extremely well and I didn't even remotely come close to calling him scum did I? Get over yourself, Your opinions are not facts.
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@Mocsta
I actually did not promise to make a case against Omni, I distinctly stated that while I feel he is scummy, I do not want to be the one making the case, as I have massive bias. I have been directing attention to him as nobody seems to be picking up on his loose play. In the absence of a case, I will likely make one, but I am busy and have other people I would like to pursue. If Corazon feels up to the task, this would be optimal from my perspective.
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Mocsta, if you could reveal why you chose to make the OE thing an issue one hour before the lynch deadline instead of during Night 1. It's something I'd like to know.
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On January 05 2013 11:23 cDgCorazon wrote:
(1)
We shouldn't forgive OE for mislynching, but we shouldn't crucify him for it either. However, I will be watching him a bit more closely from now on.
(2)
On Mocsta's attack on OE: I feel like Mocsta was exaggerating a bit in his accusations by saying that OE had only talked about policy and fluff. I feel like this is too harsh on OE.
(3)
The biggest issue I've had with it is the timing. One hour before the lynch? Was it that important to where it could have been saved for N1?
I shall respond.
Firstly, you don't like one of my actions over 48hrs. Do you think one action unwrites every other; is this how you intend to play the game? If you truly think all my other actions in this game have been scum-oriented, than your question obviously stands, and I have no qualms to answer.
But in all seriousness, if it is one action you have concerns about, you are doing several poor town plays
(1) you are taking away attention from genuine suspects
(2) wasting thread counts
Assuming you actually do think I have had scum motives for all my actions in this game.. the answers to your questions are as follows:
(1) I agree townies make mistakes, and shouldnt be crucified. Caveat: "Townie"... I have also noticed you have a very strong tendency to watch this game... similar behavior to what StriX wanted...
(2) OK, you think some areas are exaggerated; if you have doubts about my case, perhaps you should share with town and see if they perceive it the same way. I also don't see why you think policy talk is solid pro-town behaviour, but that is an outside-thread conversation.
Fair enough you think I am harsh; but instead of slapping me on the wrist.
Why don't you be constructive and try to point out the flaws in my logic.
(3) I have noticed you in particular have a tendency not to read my posts in their entirety, and call me out on things I have explained. If you are actually trying to say "hey Moctsa, your reasoning isn't up to scratch, please detail more" I will be like "sure Corazon, how are these ... blah blah blah... for you" instead, you just confuse the thread space, by asking me to repeat items already addressed.
Assuming you don't like my initial reasoning, what happened was.
Middle of Day 1, I was asking for scum reads.
I said I would make my case 8hrs from lynch, so would hold off.
Come ~10hrs from lynch, I was about to start doing my analysis on OmniEulogy (my top scum read), which is when TeMiL posted.
His post was so utterly *insert expletive*I felt compelled to overrule my top scum read, and target him. The rational was simple, his vote can't be relied on, and he is a loose cannon (this was actually proven by his final vote).
I posed a question to the coach(s) on theory crafting the situation.
I woke up @ 6.30 (2hrs before lynch) and after reading the coach(s) feedback and your digs at me for voting TeMiL I decided to pursue Omni.
To go through filter and make commetary takes time. im sorry it was unlaeshed 1hr before lynch.
In hindsight..I agree, it could have been handled better, but these things happen.
Now we need to find the flaws in my logic of Omni, discuss them, and see where to go from there.
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EPT
