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On January 19 2012 07:30 MrBazinga wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 06:57 IPS.Blue wrote:1. Optical sensors reach about 6000 (the MX518 with up to 6469) and laser sensors scratch the 12000. Plus there are sensors who work completely different (Philips Twin Eye). 2. It's CPI. DPI is just plain wrong. A printer has DPI. A mouse, as you said, counts, it doesn't paint dots. 3. This exceeds my technical knowledge. Do you have sources or is that stuff just floating around your brain  ? Your example is flawed, though. If a mouse takes 12000 pictures a second and gets polled 1000 times a second - how can it be, that it can't deliver new data (when being moved rapidly in circles)? Also mind, that the serial port of the sensor often operates at 1 or 2 MHz ... It's late and I'm tired, but I'm trying to get to the point: 1. He was talking about how many pictures per second are being taken, you are talking about CPI which is, so to speak, the resolution of the sensors.
I'm not sure if you're trying to bazinga me here, but anyway: The Avago ADNS-A9500 for example has the following specs: Up to 12000 frames per second with a pixel array of 30x30 (the 9500 processes therefor processes 10.8 megapixels per second). It's CPI ranges from 90 to 5670.
On January 19 2012 07:30 MrBazinga wrote:
2. We all know it means CPI. Yet DPI is an accepted term that even the manufacturers put on their retail boxes. It's like with cars and PS vs kW.
Not every manufacturer puts DPI on his box. Not all know it should be DPI instead of CPI. By continuing to use DPI instead of CPI, you just solidify that BS ...
On January 19 2012 07:39 Medrea wrote:
That number is different from the actual rate at which the buffer gets updated. You are actually talking about sample rate of the sensor, I am talking about how often the value in the mouse gets updated after the data is processed through the mouse firmware and all that. Its good you mention that though. Sample rate of the sensor is huge when it comes to talking about the max speed of a mouse. And I agree, I was somewhat economical with that part of the explaination.
I dropped a big knowledge bomb so admittedly tracking down the sources for absolutely all of that is tricky. Even those eHow websites really boil it down. However, I might add that actually all devices since USB was conceived work in approximately the same way.
It seems I have to trust you then ;P
On January 19 2012 07:39 Medrea wrote:
If you still think that 1k and sometimes 500 is unstable, consider a circle (circle movement). 500hz straight up is going to give you a certain amount of data points within that circle. If I just add more data points in between, I can only increase the resolution and accuracy of the circle I made with my hand. The points could be completely random, it doesnt matter, more points of data is always better. I could add just one, one single additional data point, and it would be better.
Great explanation. So the only reason not to use 1000 hz would be, that either your motherboard, your chipset, your operating system or your mouse would malfunction in a way, that would result in less delivered information out of the mouse, compared to when the mouse would be running with 500 hz.
On January 19 2012 07:39 Medrea wrote:
Unless of course you are "banking" on the polling rate delay in which case you would be the motherfucking Rainman.
I didn't get that, although I know the movie.
On January 19 2012 07:39 Medrea wrote:
I appreciate your sentiment about DPI. It is a bit of a misnomer.
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which mouse is most similar to LMO ?
Roccat Pyra or Razer Salmosa or Zowie ?
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@veggiedealer Logitech M100, i had a LMO for years and after reading the review in this thread i decided to get it since its cheap and its amazing feels almost exactly like the LMO just faster :D
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On January 19 2012 22:35 IPS.Blue wrote:I'm not sure if you're trying to bazinga me here, but anyway: The Avago ADNS-A9500 for example has the following specs: Up to 12000 frames per second with a pixel array of 30x30 (the 9500 processes therefor processes 10.8 megapixels per second). It's CPI ranges from 90 to 5670. Not every manufacturer puts DPI on his box. Not all know it should be DPI instead of CPI. By continuing to use DPI instead of CPI, you just solidify that BS ...
It's my bad that I couldn't articulate myself clearly with the right terms (although I really do like to bazinga people. Like if I do a really bad cheese I always go - BAZINGA! Stupid yeah, but makes me smile ^^). I tried to articulate what Medrea said regarding the sample rate. So ignore what I wrote and read his stuff, it's better ^^ (but on a side note: u just said it yourself with "frames per second" - that's a measure of speed. How often does the sensor take pictures and therefore how fast does it operate)
DPI vs CPI... I still think this is totally wayne because you could also argue the sensor counts x dots per inch. But yeah, the steelseries link makes me smile. Those are the same people who make blog entries "mouse acceleration is EEEEVIL. It's SHIT for programers, you lose AAALLL accuracy!!" And then release "progamer-gear" with built--in acceleration. But that's totally OT I just realize ^^
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On January 20 2012 20:19 MrBazinga wrote:
...
But yeah, the steelseries link makes me smile. Those are the same people who make blog entries "mouse acceleration is EEEEVIL. It's SHIT for programers, you lose AAALLL accuracy!!" And then release "progamer-gear" with built--in acceleration. But that's totally OT I just realize ^^
I don't think that's OT at all. SteelSeries pulled one of the biggest (maybe the biggest) Bazingas in the world of computer mice with that acceleration farce. One should be very critical about everything SteelSeries puts on their homepage (except that CPI vs. DPI thing ;P) ...
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On January 20 2012 21:10 IPS.Blue wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 20:19 MrBazinga wrote:
...
But yeah, the steelseries link makes me smile. Those are the same people who make blog entries "mouse acceleration is EEEEVIL. It's SHIT for programers, you lose AAALLL accuracy!!" And then release "progamer-gear" with built--in acceleration. But that's totally OT I just realize ^^ I don't think that's OT at all. SteelSeries pulled one of the biggest (maybe the biggest) Bazingas in the world of computer mice with that acceleration farce. One should be very critical about everything SteelSeries puts on their homepage (except that CPI vs. DPI thing ;P) ...
Steelseries Sensei
EXACTAIM: SLOW DOWN AND FOCUS
SteelSeries ExactAim will allow you to be more precise. Headshots anyone? As you slow down your cursor the mouse will decelerate even more allowing you to focus on your target.
Negative acceleration at low speeds.
EXACTACCEL: MOVE FAST, NO EVEN FASTER
SteelSeries ExactAccel does just the opposite as ExactAim. As you increase the speed of your mouse movement, ExactAccel will accelerate your movements even faster in order for you to move across your game or page faster.
Positive acceleration.
As far as I know these are actually problems with the sensor that Steelseries decided to push through and market to the consumer anyway. As you might imagine, these are awful by themselves. Together they combine into a force of frustration never before seen anywhere.
Great explanation. So the only reason not to use 1000 hz would be, that either your motherboard, your chipset, your operating system or your mouse would malfunction in a way, that would result in less delivered information out of the mouse, compared to when the mouse would be running with 500 hz.
The only reason to not use 1000mhz is if your motherboard doesnt support it. Which your board will let you know immediately by shitting out a huge brick of total system freeze. Followed by your OS having to reboot the USB controller.
But if in possession of a board unable to do 1k, I implore everyone to seek out 500hz which is just about as practical anyway. 1000hz from 500hz may not be massive but 125hz to 500hz is an extraordinary leap in overall fidelity.
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Well, to add something to the sensei discussion, i am pretty satisfied with it.
I had a Razer Diamondback for a long time, than decided that i want to have something smaller, lighter. I got myself a Zowie Mico with which i was pretty satisfied as well. After some time though i realised that it was in fact too small for my hands. Not that it was horrible, but i wanted something better.
And so here i am with my sensei, and as i mentioned already, it feels good so far.
I am very fussy when it comes down to my hardware and i do a heavy research before i buy something. So i knew about all that accelaration shit and exactXXX stuff that SS did. I read so much that i decided to just fucking test one on my own.
I actually use the sensei @ 1200 dpi with all that fancy stuff off, and 25% lift off. Works like a charm. The cursor movement feels very natural if you know what i mean. Although the Mico @800 dpi maybe even was a bit better. I cant really judge that one.. In any case the behaviour of the sensei is absolutely acceptable and far away from beeing a problem.
You can feel/notice the acceleration yes, but its very minimal. And i dont even use a recommended mousepad for the sensei. I use a goliathus control atm. Tried the sensei on my funcsurface too and i didnt notice much of a difference. The sensei should normally be used with a hard pad not with a soft mat. People recommend the Artisan Hayate as a soft mat for the sensei though. I would have bought one, but in japan they have none in stock and american amazon doesnt deliver that product to europe..
tl, dr: Sensei: Good mouse. At least for me. And normally i am sensitive person already regarding things like this. Obviously though some people are even more sensitive as it seems, else there wouldnt even be a discussion about the sensei.
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On January 20 2012 02:38 Avokodo wrote:
@veggiedealer Logitech M100, i had a LMO for years and after reading the review in this thread i decided to get it since its cheap and its amazing feels almost exactly like the LMO just faster :D
i dont think that is true because its much bigger the m100 is much wider as the lmo especially at the front which can be crucial for finger tippers and craw grippers
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Just switched from a razer naga to razer abyssus and couldn't be happier. The size and shape are much more suitable for fingertip grip. Only thing about abyssus is that the mouse led stays on even when my pc is powered off....
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Wow there is a lot of good info being offered up in this thread; I'm going to try to organize some of this into the OP.
Here's what I'm thinking, I want to include a lot of the personal experiences with devices that users have posted in the thread, but these don't really don't have the analysis and information to be called a "review" in my opinion. But the input they provide could be very useful feedback to someone who is trying to decide between two different mice. So what I'm going to do is include a few of this feedback within spoilers in the list of gaming mice (may need to retitle this section), and leave the TL reviews as a separate section. I will be trying to pick out a few posts that do a really good job of providing insight into users' personal experiences with the mice; if there is an instance where there seems to be very opposed views, I will try to include feedback from both perspectives. I will be (hopefully) doing this as an ongoing process. I think that would be a much better option to making 10,000 polls which would likely be answered by people who may not even have used the mouse in question.
I think I will also be organizing the TL member reviews by manufacturer to help reduce clutter.
A lot of good technical info in here too, I will be trying to get a good amount of that into the OP as well so don't be surprised if you see some of your posts show up there. I may edit them a bit, but anything I copy into there I will give credit to the poster. I'm debating whether to put some of this stuff into "General Info", "Purchasing Guides", of if I should create a new section entirely. I'll have to see how it looks after I've pulled everything out of the thread that I want to put in there.
If you have input PM me or just post it here.
Edit: OH! One more thing. To the CPI versus DPI disscussion going on: while I realize CPI is actually the correct term virtually every single manufacturer with the exception of Steel Series uses the term DPI in their technical specifications. In the interest of keeping everything the same I am electing to use the term "DPI" or "DPI/CPI" throughout the OP. Might not be *technically* correct, but I think it will be much less confusing to people not familiar with the topic. (Anything I copy into the OP using the term "CPI" I will change to "DPI/CPI".
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On January 21 2012 05:23 TheToast wrote:If you have input PM me or just post it here.
Great idea and thanks for all the effort you put into the OP
I'd like to contribute 2 things for people who use a Mac. First some feedback for the DeathAdder, then a general overview of how to get a good mouse setup on OS X.
The Razer DeathAdder seems to be the amongst the best, if not the best choice for gamers on OS X. Razer offers fully featured software for it on OS X, and it comes with adjustable DPI/CPI and linear sensitivity settings to make it work with Bumblebees' OS X acceleration fix.
General OS X + gaming mouse guide
I'm on a Mac for a few years now, and tried lots and lots of things to make the mouse ballistics work like they do on a properly configured windows setup. Here's the current status quo:
The only thing that really does the trick regarding the abomination that is called mouse acceleration is Bumblebees' mouse fix. This will get your Mac's mouse ballistics as close as possible (at the moment of this writing) to what you're used to from a properly configured windows environment. But this fix comes at a little cost: You won't be able to adjust the mouse sensitivity from OS X's system preferences anymore.
So in order to get the cursor to move at the speed you feel most comfortable with, you want to have a mouse with adjustable DPI/CPI settings. In theory, every mouse that comes with a hardware DPI/CPI switch should be fine. The other option is a mouse with adjustable DPI/CPI settings via the driver - in this case, you have to make sure that
a) there are functioning OS X drivers available for that mouse or
b) the mouse has built-in memory and can store the setting you want to use on your Mac. However, in this case you need to have access to a Windows machine at least once to get the mouse working the way you want it to.
There is actually something to add regarding option b) because there are 2 types of mice you can end up with:
a) a mouse with memory for more than just 1 setting and a profile switch button. In this case, you can store several profiles on your mouse's memory and cycle through them as you please without ever having to connect your mouse to a windows pc again. The Razer Lachesis would be an example of such a mouse.
b) a mouse with limited memory space or space for only 1 profile. This means that every time you want to change your mouse settings, you would have to connect this mouse to a Windows pc again. If you like to play with the sensitivity and/or you like to have specific settings for each game you play (like FPS vs RTS), I strongly advice against such a mouse. If you're a set it and forget it kinda guy - go for it.
To sum things up:
First: Get rid of OS X's mouse acceleration with Bumblebees' mouse fix
Second: Get a mouse that gives you the option to switch the DPI/CPI either via hardware switch, OS X drivers, or the option to save the settings on the mouse via internal memory. Access to a Windows pc is required for the latter option.
On January 21 2012 05:23 TheToast wrote:
Edit: OH! One more thing. To the CPI versus DPI disscussion going on: while I realize CPI is actually the correct term virtually every single manufacturer with the exception of Steel Series uses the term DPI in their technical specifications. In the interest of keeping everything the same I am electing to use the term "DPI" or "DPI/CPI" throughout the OP. Might not be *technically* correct, but I think it will be much less confusing to people not familiar with the topic. (Anything I copy into the OP using the term "CPI" I will change to "DPI/CPI".
High Fiiiiive ^^
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Damn. Wanted to edit, instead I quoted myself. Sorry!
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On January 21 2012 00:35 VeggieDealer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 02:38 Avokodo wrote:
@veggiedealer Logitech M100, i had a LMO for years and after reading the review in this thread i decided to get it since its cheap and its amazing feels almost exactly like the LMO just faster :D i dont think that is true because its much bigger the m100 is much wider as the lmo especially at the front which can be crucial for finger tippers and craw grippers
I just picked up the M100 last night without expecting too much. To my surprise, it feels great for a finger/claw grip and doesn't feel awkward to palm. Good mouse for such a cheap price I think!
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On January 20 2012 23:54 creepcolony wrote:
Well, to add something to the sensei discussion, i am pretty satisfied with it.
I had a Razer Diamondback for a long time, than decided that i want to have something smaller, lighter. I got myself a Zowie Mico with which i was pretty satisfied as well. After some time though i realised that it was in fact too small for my hands. Not that it was horrible, but i wanted something better.
And so here i am with my sensei, and as i mentioned already, it feels good so far.
I am very fussy when it comes down to my hardware and i do a heavy research before i buy something. So i knew about all that accelaration shit and exactXXX stuff that SS did. I read so much that i decided to just fucking test one on my own.
I actually use the sensei @ 1200 dpi with all that fancy stuff off, and 25% lift off. Works like a charm. The cursor movement feels very natural if you know what i mean. Although the Mico @800 dpi maybe even was a bit better. I cant really judge that one.. In any case the behaviour of the sensei is absolutely acceptable and far away from beeing a problem.
You can feel/notice the acceleration yes, but its very minimal. And i dont even use a recommended mousepad for the sensei. I use a goliathus control atm. Tried the sensei on my funcsurface too and i didnt notice much of a difference. The sensei should normally be used with a hard pad not with a soft mat. People recommend the Artisan Hayate as a soft mat for the sensei though. I would have bought one, but in japan they have none in stock and american amazon doesnt deliver that product to europe..
tl, dr: Sensei: Good mouse. At least for me. And normally i am sensitive person already regarding things like this. Obviously though some people are even more sensitive as it seems, else there wouldnt even be a discussion about the sensei.
I hate acceleration but after using a friends Sensei I was suprised that it is indeed very minimal compared to other mice that use the Avago A9500 (I also own the G9x & Xai), so I decided to buy one of my own. I think SteelSeries tweaked the firmware a bit because I had no trouble getting comfortable with going from the Zowie Mico (no acceleration, little prediction) to the Sensei. This is something I can't do if I tried to hook up my G9x or Xai right now; the acceleration is very noticeable with those mice and takes time for me to ajust. I also noticed with my Artisian Hayate the acceleration is only around 1-3% at most. Before this I bought the Zowie AM but had some trouble getting comfortable with the thinner shape, which caused my hand to really hurt after a couple hours of use. This is what prompted me to buy the Sensi, the width is much closer to one of my favorite mice the Microsoft IntelliMouse 1.1. The omoron switches on the Sensei feel much easier to press than the Huano switches on the Zowie AM, and for me they felt a bit more tactile compared to the omorons on the xai. One thing I have a problem with on the Sensei is hitting the buttons on the right of the mouse by accident (I had to disable them), but other than that I like the mouse.
I have a Kinzu V2 Pro also on the way, and with the smaller shape, no side buttons, omoron switches and hopefully upcoming firmware that fixes the pixart jump bug that might be my mouse of choice for Starcraft. Time will tell.
Edit: I just tried the Sensei on a Zowie cloth pad that I have and you can definitely feel the difference that the Hayate makes! The acceleration is still pretty minimal on the Zowie pad, but on the Hayate I have trouble kowing that the acceleration is even there.
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Major Updates!
I reorganized the OP, added a number of mice, and added quite a few posts from the thread into the OP. Let me know if anything is wrong/broken/or otherwise incorrect. There's still quite a lot of stuff I want to/need to add in but  it's getting late.
Just as an interesting aside, the OP is now over halfway to the TL thread character limit, just passed 52k. 
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On January 22 2012 16:10 TheToast wrote:Major Updates! I reorganized the OP, added a number of mice, and added quite a few posts from the thread into the OP. Let me know if anything is wrong/broken/or otherwise incorrect. There's still quite a lot of stuff I want to/need to add in but it's getting late. Just as an interesting aside, the OP is now over halfway to the TL thread character limit, just passed 52k.
should also add the ec1/ec2 mice from zowie
and the g400 from logitech
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On January 22 2012 16:10 TheToast wrote:Major Updates! I reorganized the OP, added a number of mice, and added quite a few posts from the thread into the OP. Let me know if anything is wrong/broken/or otherwise incorrect. There's still quite a lot of stuff I want to/need to add in but it's getting late. Just as an interesting aside, the OP is now over halfway to the TL thread character limit, just passed 52k.
How do you find out the post limit?
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On January 22 2012 16:30 mTwTT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2012 16:10 TheToast wrote:Major Updates! I reorganized the OP, added a number of mice, and added quite a few posts from the thread into the OP. Let me know if anything is wrong/broken/or otherwise incorrect. There's still quite a lot of stuff I want to/need to add in but it's getting late. Just as an interesting aside, the OP is now over halfway to the TL thread character limit, just passed 52k. should also add the ec1/ec2 mice from zowie and the g400 from logitech
Done.
On January 22 2012 17:01 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2012 16:10 TheToast wrote:Major Updates! I reorganized the OP, added a number of mice, and added quite a few posts from the thread into the OP. Let me know if anything is wrong/broken/or otherwise incorrect. There's still quite a lot of stuff I want to/need to add in but it's getting late. Just as an interesting aside, the OP is now over halfway to the TL thread character limit, just passed 52k. How do you find out the post limit?
Here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=293649#4
Also found out something else interesting, apparently in the last 6 months Microsoft has discontinued it's entire line of Sidewinder products: http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/microsoft_reportedly_discontinuing_sidewinder_brand_again
A bit sad to see since some people actually really liked them apparently. I know my friend has a sidewinder keyboard that he really likes too :/
-Edit: looks like they are still selling their sidewinder keyboard but not their mice?
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On January 21 2012 23:22 MrBazinga wrote:
... But this fix comes at a little cost: You won't be able to adjust the mouse sensitivity from OS X's system preferences anymore ...
But one could still adjust the mouse sensitivity directly in SC 2?
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On January 20 2012 02:24 VeggieDealer wrote:
which mouse is most similar to LMO ?
Roccat Pyra or Razer Salmosa or Zowie ?
Zowie Mico and Logitech G1 (ebay) are quite similar in shape.
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EPT
