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On June 29 2012 15:27 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 15:25 Signum wrote:On June 29 2012 15:22 iky43210 wrote:
nowhere did avilo demands to be on the show. Way to twist untruthful statement
he begged and cried about wanting to be on the show all during and after the last sotg. what universe are you from? Yeah, you're not going to get too many naive people hook onto this lie
hmm? Where have you been? Avilo REALLY wanted to be on the show.
taken from THIS thread..
On June 20 2012 11:15 avilo wrote:
Calling you out SOTG, I'm willing to join in the skype chat to discuss from a Terran perspective the "state of the game." Otherwise, find another Terran willing to discuss actual balance/state of the game issues, you don't seem to really be having a balanced discussion at all.
On June 20 2012 11:24 avilo wrote:
I post this in chat, but the SOTG mods have conviently timed me out/banned me each time.
Oh interesting that there's a Terran here in chat willing to discuss the actual state of the game with you, isn't that what this show is for? I'll discuss it in a more logical manner than your try hard attempts at being witty and batting the issue away. I'm willing to discuss the "STATE OF THE GAME" from a Terran perspective. No whine here, just offering logical discussion from a TErran perspective which you currently do not have on this show and keep shrugging off. You seem to be unwilling to have a terran perspective on this show, so yes, I'm calling you out. I'll add in the Terran two cents, otherwise be as condescending as you want, but this isn't a "State of the Game" without a Terran on it.
Get a Terran on, I'm willing, what's the problem?
ROFL:
On June 20 2012 12:04 avilo wrote:I just refreshed the thread  Nice try on completely avoiding my challenge to you Geoff. Bring me on the show, what's wrong with a Terran perspective? This is not about a showmatch/ego (maybe it is to you). If you want to challenge me to such a thing at another time, we could most likely arrange that. That is not what this is about. Get a Terran on the show. Or do not talk. p.s. you're pretty good with the lil PR tricks "oh omg now im the good guy i threw you a bone !" I called SOTG out. SOTG has not responded as of yet.
and the list goes on.
Iky43210, please stop derailing this thread with your 1 liners desperately defending Avilo after he disrespects IdrA by ignoring his points, and thus, gets disrespected by the SOTG hosts.
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On June 29 2012 15:32 Rinkor16 wrote:
Sad to see a good episode being over shadowed by a 5 minute portion.
Exactly. QXC/Idra debate was really good, both had solid points and debated really well. The rest of the show was pretty good too. I actually watched the VOD after seeing the storm of comments and have to say both the people who say SotG was at fault and the people who say Avilo is at fault are wrong. They both made mistakes. Avilo came across as a bit confrontational, including with the "I'll say this without insulting you like you did to me", you don't say that without trying to make a point of it. JP and InControl didn't handle it well either, with InControl insulting (not "making fun of") Avilo and JP hanging up on him. InControl talked about what exactly wound up happening earlier in the show and still pushed for Avilo to be on, then afterward says "think twice chat before asking for a TvZ debate". Was all the Avilo stuff to make a point to the audience? If he wanted more drama (which he usually tends to be against) he provided it successfully. The apology at the end did seem honest though normal InControl sarcasm. I believe JP made the right choice to end the Avilo/Idra thing because it was going nowhere fast, except he just kept quiet and ended the call with Avilo mid-sentence. As the host he has the right to cut it off but he should've at least said something about it ending and Avilo would be getting off the call. Minor, stupid, avoidable mistakes that people are making mountains about. Relax, what happened wasn't the right thing, but I appreciate JP's post. It's been a tough transition (in my eyes) for these guys to constantly be in the public eye (twitter, facebook, youtube, twitch), everything is being watched and dissected all the time and it looks like it may be weighing on people. This is something they picked to do and can't use as a whine or excuse (my opinion), but they're human too.
Last but not least, I thought this was a great episode (minus 5-10 minutes) and really enjoyed watching it.
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As to the actual debate, I would love to provide an actual summary of T and Zs points which I think this thread is missing.
T of course is instigating the actual discussion, so all Z points are essentially counter-points.
#1 The 6queen build is greedy, to match, macro wise a 6queen build Terran needs to be equally greedy (3CC)
T-This may not work, because lets say both the Z and the T are equally greedy all the way to the lategame. They are equal in economy, however not equal in ability to tech switch. So while they are even in money mined etc, the terran whilst being equal in money cannot tech switch as easily as the Zerg, hence loses.
Z- If you are keeping up with the Zerg, being equally greedy you have some timings mid-game, to do big pushes, to stop the hive tech debacle, or at least slow it down to where you are equal in tech switch capabilities.
#2 The 6queen build is better than the T's counter greedy build because of flexibility.
T-If T goes 3macro CC, to counter the 6 queen build, he has to do it somewhat blindly, being susceptible to an allin, And as going 3 CC there are no all-ins you can do. Z coming from a mass queen build can do an all-in pretty effectively. So if a standard 6queen build sees a 3macro CC, the Z can all-in from that point that can be incredibly tough to hold.
Z-If Z is spending all these minerals on queens and say a third hatch for a fake-out, that weakens the potential all-in, allowing for T to have more of a chance to holding it.
#3 You can be aggressive towards a 6queen build, but only in an allin-ish sense.
T-To be equal in macro, you need a third CC, but then you cannot be aggressive. To be aggressive, you need to be all-in. There is no in-between, which is how terrans usually play TvZ,
Z-Terran can still do aggression off of 3 CC, except not in the ways that are similar to what they have done for the past year or so, so that is why T's think they cannot.
#4 (exception to the preface above) In a bo(x) format even if the queen build is not that viable.
Z- If a Z player does a 6queen build, there are all-ins to do that can scare the Z away from doing these greedy builds, so say in game one, Z goes 6queen and T allins specifically designed to kill 6queen, that will scare off Zs from playing like that.
T- Why should I have to all-in a random game each one of my Bo(x). All-ins arent my style/strength as a player. I want a diverse way to play, and it would be dumb if I have to do that.
-------------------------------------------------------
There are some other lategame discussion points, but I think I very adequately summed up each side's argument. You should talk about the beautiful discussion that was had between QXC and Idra, and half of AviloQXC and Idra!
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On June 29 2012 15:29 xOny wrote:
if there is any "fault", it's as much Avilo's as anyones. He got himself on the show, then proceeded to interupt IdrA with 1-liner balance complaints while IdrA talked about actual common in the pro-metagame scenarios. ofc IdrA is going to say, in essence, "I've had enough". JP only cut him off to avoid further tention caused by Avilo.
I don't think the interrupting was the biggest issue here. I think Avilo did a very poor job of expressing his opinion and getting his point out, then I think IdrA also did a very bad job of responding to him. The interruptions were more a product of their mutual frustration than the cause.
Substantively, what are they saying?
Avilo's problem is that queens allow the zerg to ramp up an economy such that they can tech switch much faster than terran, allowing them to get the better late-game composition. This means the zerg composition will either overcome the terran or the zerg can fight the terran army and then switch the composition to one that counters it. It took him a few convoluted sentences to spit it out and then he erroneously made the point that zerg late game compositions are dependent on queens.
Idra's response was that zerg late game compositions don't have lots of queens and that bad decisions lose games. I don't know what he was going to say, but I think the direct responses he should have pointed out are that zergs have gotten better at using infestors and terrans are supposed to harass the zerg late-game, slow-army economy (and winning terrans do this). Importantly, these two points (better infestor use, slacking terran harass) aren't based on the queen change.
All this drama is a little too much though. This was hardly "disgusting" or "sickening", guys. C'mon, we're not outraged PTA moms writing to the local newspaper. A couple of guys debated and IdrA lost his patience, which he anticipated would happen before Avilo even came on.
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On June 29 2012 15:50 xOny wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 15:27 iky43210 wrote:On June 29 2012 15:25 Signum wrote:On June 29 2012 15:22 iky43210 wrote:
nowhere did avilo demands to be on the show. Way to twist untruthful statement
he begged and cried about wanting to be on the show all during and after the last sotg. what universe are you from? Yeah, you're not going to get too many naive people hook onto this lie hmm? Where have you been? Avilo REALLY wanted to be on the show. taken from THIS thread.. Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 11:15 avilo wrote:
Calling you out SOTG, I'm willing to join in the skype chat to discuss from a Terran perspective the "state of the game." Otherwise, find another Terran willing to discuss actual balance/state of the game issues, you don't seem to really be having a balanced discussion at all. Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 11:24 avilo wrote:
I post this in chat, but the SOTG mods have conviently timed me out/banned me each time.
Oh interesting that there's a Terran here in chat willing to discuss the actual state of the game with you, isn't that what this show is for? I'll discuss it in a more logical manner than your try hard attempts at being witty and batting the issue away. I'm willing to discuss the "STATE OF THE GAME" from a Terran perspective. No whine here, just offering logical discussion from a TErran perspective which you currently do not have on this show and keep shrugging off. You seem to be unwilling to have a terran perspective on this show, so yes, I'm calling you out. I'll add in the Terran two cents, otherwise be as condescending as you want, but this isn't a "State of the Game" without a Terran on it.
Get a Terran on, I'm willing, what's the problem? ROFL: Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 12:04 avilo wrote:I just refreshed the thread Nice try on completely avoiding my challenge to you Geoff. Bring me on the show, what's wrong with a Terran perspective? This is not about a showmatch/ego (maybe it is to you). If you want to challenge me to such a thing at another time, we could most likely arrange that. That is not what this is about. Get a Terran on the show. Or do not talk. p.s. you're pretty good with the lil PR tricks "oh omg now im the good guy i threw you a bone !" I called SOTG out. SOTG has not responded as of yet. and the list goes on. Iky43210, please stop derailing this thread with your 1 liners desperately defending Avilo after he disrespects IdrA by ignoring his points, and thus, gets disrespected by the SOTG hosts.
Ok sir fanboy, just keep twisting statements and i'm sure that'll validate what idra, incontrol and JP did in this show.
First off, avilo did not "begged or cried" to be on SOTG. He just mostly wanted a Terran to be on the imbalance zerg and protoss circlejerks that is state of the game. Notice how avilo didn't said a thing once they invited QXC?
He didn't expect to be on SOTG, he knows he wasn't going to be invited. He just wanted a terran to represent the race during SOTG discussion. However, sotg casters feel the need to berate and belittle someone on stream (constantly might I add over the course of days, and if it wasn't enough they have to call him and do it in his face). Bullying a kid as a group was just way out of line and unproffessional.
Even more of a joke is that there exist someone like you defending them, or even paint avilo as the cause of grief. It makes me sick, I guess bash the victim mentality is still alive and kicking in good old USA
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Lost respect for the Hosts, QXC / Idra discussion was informative and relevant to what I was wanting to hear but towards the end with the bash fest going on. Uncalled for man
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United States7483 Posts
It seemed to me that QXC and IdrA had a pretty reasonable discussion about the balance of the matchup and the state of it currently, both of them conceeding points and providing alternative solutions to problems, etc. They both had ideas and seemed pretty agreeable about it. During that discussion, at no point was their whine, insults, or rudeness from either of them, and both of them made excellent points. That was a great discussion to listen to.
When Avilo joined, it was pretty much a shouting match back and forth with IdrA trying to be reasonable and failing with Avilo interrupting him constantly, then IdrA falling back on his typical ways and insulting him repeatedly. He was booted off because the conversation was pointless, every point that had been made had already been made by QXC and IdrA, and frankly Avilo was using some pretty irritating argument tactics like trying to twist IdrA's words around while deliberately misinterpreting him.
IdrA is right on this I think: Terrans had a ridiculously powerful opener previously, as showcased by the fact that every single terran did it every single game for the most part. Blizzard thought it was too good for Terran and buffed zerg a little to stop that opener from being so strong, but Terran is still doing that opener and expecting it to be as useful, and therefore losing. The 6 queen build is hyper defensive focused and sacrifices all aggressive potential for econ: if you spot it, you can runby since there won't be speed for zerglings, or do a 3 CC opening with absurd tech and equal zerg with greed. The runby is if you made the hellions anyway and need to use them for something (keeping them alive to deny creep doesn't work anymore, since zerg commits so heavily to put creep down). His point about creep is a good one too: yes creep is powerful, but if zerg commits so heavily to getting creep, sidestep the problem for the time being rather than trying to brute force it.
QXC even had a few ideas about what Terrans can try as well.
I enjoyed listening to their discussion. Letting Avilo on the show was a terrible idea: you knew a shitstorm would ensue, and you knew he had nothing useful to add. Frankly, I don't think there's much Avilo can add to a discussion of this nature that QXC can't, QXC is just so ridiculously knowledgeable and fair.
That said, the insults towards Avilo were uncalled for, you don't invite someone on just to mock them, even if they were asking for it.
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On June 29 2012 15:37 I_Love_Bacon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 15:33 oldie8 wrote:On June 29 2012 15:15 MichaelDonovan wrote:On June 29 2012 15:10 oldie8 wrote:On June 29 2012 11:36 IdrA wrote:
i was quiet and let him finish his point, the moment i started talking he started yelling over me and saying i agreed with him when i quite explicitly didnt. hes a fucking imbecile and has no place in anything serious in the community and jp's a piece of shit for bringing him on the show.
User was warned for this post yeah hopefully at some point in the future you will realize that publicly insulting people isnt actually what a smart person would do, infact its pretty imbecile itself. But i have to agree, bringing the guy on the show only showcased bad parts of your personalities, which is also not a smart thing to do. Imbecile is a noun. ? it can be an adjective as well That would be imbecilic.... much like the last 40 pages of this thread. Glad there was some TvZ talk with IdrA and QXC. Even though no ground was made, it would shut people up and maybe open people's eyes to possible shifts and ideas. Nothing to say about the Avilo segment, but I can only pray that this will all be dropped within a day or two. Show needs more NewNee, too quiet this week.
IMBECILE (adjective)
The adjective IMBECILE has 1 sense:
1. having a mental age of three to seven years
Familiarity information: IMBECILE used as an adjective is very rare.
People talking about stuff they dont know isnt very sm....wait i wont repeat myself again.
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On June 29 2012 15:29 xOny wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 15:22 McFeser wrote:
Avilo certainly tried and while his arguments might have been off base, I don't think IdrA telling him to "Shut the fuck up" is an appropriate response. That's not how you talk to people, and no, "Idra being Idra" is not a legitimate excuse for acting like an asshole. Wow, people are still trying to make this point. Did you watch the episode? Idra gave Avilo plentry of time to have a decent, calm conversation but as IdrA said- Avilo kept cutting him off until IdrA had enough. 1) there is no "situation" here. there just seems to be a ton of misinformed people who skimmed over the thread a few pages back and overreact in their own posts 2) if there is any "fault", it's as much Avilo's as anyones. He got himself on the show, then proceeded to interupt IdrA with 1-liner balance complaints while IdrA talked about actual common in the pro-metagame scenarios. ofc IdrA is going to say, in essence, "I've had enough". JP only cut him off to avoid further tention caused by Avilo.
Please, don't assume I'm a fool.
I rewatched it. Idra cut him off mid-sentence and said "shut the fuck up" - moments later he told him he was fucking horrible at the game and that was why he was having so much trouble. Skill at the game does not correlate to being unable to give a discussion anyways (Look at MKP/MVP who whines more than a Terran out there). Now I'm not going to defend Avilo or say that he was making good points, and at certain points he was completely misinterpreting Idra's, but the way Idra was treating him was not conducive to a reasonable argument. He was very condescending towards him and the comment "You're fucking horrible at the game" came at the tailend of a long rant which could have been summed up as "You are wasting my time".
That's not how you're supposed to talk to people. That's not acting mature. And given the fact that Idra has admitted to having a cavalier attitude, primarily being unable to accept criticism (Huk has also noted this problem), is indicative of him having some serious personality problems. That doesn't mean he isn't a nice guy, if you watch the parts where he is joking around he seems like a pleasant fellow but when faced with problems he takes the elitist "Fuck you" attitude. That stopped being cute around the time he left the GSL. Pretty much what I am saying is he's not mature, and that doesn't make Avilo any the more right/wrong.
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people please dont forget...no matter how popular this show becomes in this community..it was never meant to be a freaking official press release or some sort.....it's just a talk song....people get brought on to talk show...people get cut off...people get make fun of....people curse....=.=
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is it just me or nerds just take things more seriously. nothing happened.
idra is a bad zerg player who hasn't been relevant in the tournament scene for a long time. he is also a douchebag. i have no clue who avilo is but i assume he is a terribad terran player since he has zero notable results. idra, bad as he is, at least has won stuff. anyway, both bads argued. both looked bad. lulz ensued.
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I for one was looking forward to pages of discussion on the really fucking good TvZ debate between Idra and QXC. I should've known better >.>
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United States7483 Posts
On June 29 2012 16:27 MegaFonzie wrote:
I for one was looking forward to pages of discussion on the really fucking good TvZ debate between Idra and QXC. I should've known better >.>
There's not really much to say on it, they both made great points and pretty much agreed with one another. It's hard to disagree with their conclusions, and going out of your way to voice agreement isn't particularly useful.
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On June 29 2012 16:29 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 16:27 MegaFonzie wrote:
I for one was looking forward to pages of discussion on the really fucking good TvZ debate between Idra and QXC. I should've known better >.> There's not really much to say on it, they both made great points and pretty much agreed with one another. It's hard to disagree with their conclusions, and going out of your way to voice agreement isn't particularly useful.
Just because it's hard to disagree with the conclusions, doesn't mean it isn't possible.
There might have been some who disagreed with it, and with that could've sparked constructive discussion...
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On June 29 2012 16:23 fishjie wrote:
is it just me or nerds just take things more seriously. nothing happened.
idra is a bad zerg player who hasn't been relevant in the tournament scene for a long time. he is also a douchebag. i have no clue who avilo is but i assume he is a terribad terran player since he has zero notable results. idra, bad as he is, at least has won stuff. anyway, both bads argued. both looked bad. lulz ensued.
Yeah I kinda lol'd at this post to.
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On June 29 2012 14:31 ZeromuS wrote:
As a note: On the topic of the colour mod, the colour mod is really really good for colour blind people.
Regular red v blue is not quite distinct enough for colour blind people and a decently large proportion of males are colour blind.
Eh, i'm not colorblind (I think? lol) and I use it. I could see what was going on when I didn't use it but everything is alot clearer since then. That, and I just like the way it makes everything brighter and more vibrant.
This SotG was pretty ridiculous. Maybe JP doesn't know when the chat is trolling him, seemed obvious to me in this case. Bringing on Avilo was a bad move though like most people have said, he is way too biased to give an accurate account of balance. That is in addition to not being as accomplished as someone like Idra (When is the last time you saw Avilo getting deep into a tournament, or hell even getting an upset in a series? Hasn't happened to my knowledge.) You basically had 2 polar opposites with Avilo and Idra and it was obvious they were going to butt heads because both are so stubborn on their idea of balance.
Not to mention Incontrol pretty much initiated the whole thing then just sits back and watches the shitstorm happen. I would expect someone who is practically a team captain to be more mature than that.
Before that, it was fine. The Qxc and Idra discussion was good, and I found to be quite informative. As a terran player, Qxc has given me some ideas on how to approach TvZ a bit differently.
And yeah, I know Avilo hasn't won shit. How is that an excuse to invite him to the show then shit all over him and boot him from the call? Maybe they just felt like fucking with somebody.
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Here's a summary. iNcontroL can use his pocket abacus to get the score.
Bonus point for IdrA before the call: "He's such a little moron. Don't give him attention"
avilo interrupts IdrA saying Terrans can play greedy or all-in.
iNcontroL plus IdrA interrupts avilo re: Luckyfool's blog
IdrA talks over avilo defending Luckyfool
IdrA tries to talk over avilo saying zerg can all-in 3 CC builds
avilo tries to talk over IdrA saying terrans can do things like BFH+maurader
Note: One could argue avilo interrupts IdrA at 1:28:25 but I'm ruling it crosstalk because it sounds like IdrA has finished speaking following his claim that terrans be aggressive with 3 CCs.
IdrA interrupts avilo saying that early worker harrass no longer works. (btw, IdrA seems to think there is still something Terrans can do. I don't blame him for not sharing with everyone but I haven't seen anyone else figure it out. If his hellions run past queens concept gets popular it just means zerg will return to making one or at the most two spines)
avilo interrupts IdrA saying old builds no longer work.
avilo interrupts (a long monologue by) IdrA saying early game wasn't fair against Zerg.
avilo interrupts IdrA saying if Zerg has an economy to do tech switches and Terrans can't keep up, Terran deserves to lose. IdrA, besides not getting avilo's point at all, responds with the STFU.
iNcontroL interrupts avilo's interruption asking if IdrA allowed avilo to talk uninterrupted. We can see the answer above.
IdrA interrupts avilo "agreeing" with him and insults avilo. He then explains four starports with reactors and having some ravens out will save the day for Terran.
Note: Once could argue IdrA interrupts avilo agreeing with him but I rule it crosstalk.
IdrA interrupts avilo saying the Queen buff allows Zerg economy to top Terrans and says he won't talk to avilo anymore.
JP cuts off avilo mid-sentence and doesn't acknowledge avilo's existence until the end of the show.
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I just watched the section with Avilo, and I don't really understand what the whole hoopla is about. Avilo is not an all-star player, or even close to it. Avilo just seemed to be saying Terran cannot win right now, which is obviously not true. Idra has a lot more experience, and as much as he complains about balance, I think he made a lot better argument that Avilo did. They just shouldn't have brought him on in the first place though, but the chat wouldn't stop spamming. Call me back when Avilo wins something big and/or has the proper knowledge to debate balance.
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On June 29 2012 16:31 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 16:23 fishjie wrote:
is it just me or nerds just take things more seriously. nothing happened.
idra is a bad zerg player who hasn't been relevant in the tournament scene for a long time. he is also a douchebag. i have no clue who avilo is but i assume he is a terribad terran player since he has zero notable results. idra, bad as he is, at least has won stuff. anyway, both bads argued. both looked bad. lulz ensued. Yeah I kinda lol'd at this post to.
I'm more surprised at the fact that he has made it past 300 posts on here....
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On June 29 2012 15:56 Odawg27 wrote:
Avilo came across as a bit confrontational, including with the "I'll say this without insulting you like you did to me", you don't say that without trying to make a point of it.
So IdrA insults avilo and avilo makes it a bit confrontational? Have you considered a career in politics? I mean, that's professional high office level nonsense you have there.
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EPT
