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I'm relatively new to the forums and the Starcraft community (played BW casually way back, and now play SC2 slightly more competitively diamond 1100 and the odd lan in my area) and this has quickly become one of my favorite threads...
Not because of the original post, in fact when I read it and the replies that followed I thought this thread would be a black mark on the community and my day in general. On the contrary, the discussion that has followed - in particular Nazgul's posts - has given me a greater insight into what the community perceives as the strengths and shortcomings SC2 personifies relative to BW, an already successful and often quoted favorite game by many.
Personally, I understand the argument that - if everything is easier mechanically, then more players will be able to emulate what is perceived to be the top strategy/build order/control of said unit group, and that this ability to emulate can threaten to dull competition down the road. I also understand the somewhat counter argument that is - if more players can play 'pull off' what is perceived to be the top strategy/build order/control of said unit group, then more players will play the game, more money will be made, and possibly more interest in competitive play will be the result.
My opinion on this is simple, and because I believe it is what the thread is truly about (all of what NTT complains about revolves around the perceived ease of the game relative to past experience. The balance, maps, and other complaints are easily explained by the infancy of the game) I feel I should post it.
The game is mechanically relatively easy, but calling it trash and ignoring its potential to grow and change, and the fun that it offers even now to many, is premature. A game can be easy to execute with a small learning curve even, and still be sucessful. I liken this to all card games for that matter as an example. Choosing what to do with your 'hand' in a card game is all the skill you can add to the game, decision-based skill relying on reading situations and adapting accordingly is one with an infinite cap. Card games can and have been successful as spectator 'sports/games' and in the same vein I see SC2 as having the potential to succeed based on skill separation by way of decision making prowess as opposed to hard and fast mechanics. The fact that this is a slightly "different" measure than what BW offered (more accentuated, it is/was important in BW too) is the cause of any and all concern I see.
Difference, change, growth, whatever you want to call it can be a scary thing for people that are happy with what exists or are generally uncomfortable with the unknown. I think now is the time for all players to embrace the opportunity that SC2 presents us with, and by doing so it will be bound to succeed. Sadly, people have different expectations, different views on what will work and why, and outbursts, even those light with sarcasm as NTT has provided, are inevitable but altogether counter-productive to what most everyone wants - a great SC2 experience now and for whatever its lifecycle sees play out.
- dut
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On October 07 2010 03:01 Rinsho wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 02:53 attackfighter wrote:
So what do they do instead of attack moving? Turtle? Most people I run into, yea. But on occasion I'll play a good player that micros his marauders in front to absorb the baneling shots. In those cases I have to counter-micro my banelings to not hit the marauders. Kinda get where I'm coming from now? Just because the majority of players a-move does not mean that's the best way to go about it (or 99% effective). It just means that most people like a-moving at the moment. I admit it, I'm guilty of a-moving and neglecting micro a lot more than I should, but that's why I'm not a high-level player. Their micro/macro sets them apart from me, which is just how it should be.
Well if he target fires your banelings with his tanks, there's not a whole lot you can do to counter-micro. Same thing if he's stimming his marines and kiting your banelings - either he kills them all kiting or you have enough left over to kill him. Maybe attack move isn't entirely accurate in TvZ, but the little micro there is seems fairly easy to do even for me (I am terribad btw) - I think it speaks volumes that I'm able to perform almost as good as your average pro at SC2, but in BW I'm so bad that I can't even begin to do the things a B-teamer pro can.
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I highly doubt you can play a game anywhere as well as any top player in BW or SC2.
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If you know anything about NTT, you'd know this is the most positive and uplifting thing he has ever posted on the Blizzard forums. It's going in the right direction! 
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i kind of understand NTT's point of view. what separated the pros and regular players were the multi tasking ability, sc2 has been noobified by a large margin compared to sc1.
grouped buildings, 255 units in 1 group, smart casting, smart fire, auto mining, auto repair, queue system, health and progress bar, etc.
i actually like the new changes since it makes it much easier to play (especially <3 grouped buildings) even though i hated "noobification" that started with wc3 but learned to like it. i do believe sc2 winner shouldn't be decided with 100% on strategy but how its executed awhile attending other details and sc2 surely made that easier to happen for most people. over all i think sc2 brought a good balance between macro and micro. macro became much easier so we can focus on micro.
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cool, some random guy who never did shit in sc2 quits the game?
also he seems to be a dick
User was temp banned for a history of bad posts.
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On October 07 2010 03:34 Lann555 wrote:If you know anything about NTT, you'd know this is the most positive and uplifting thing he has ever posted on the Blizzard forums. It's going in the right direction!
This is to true,laughed so dammn hard when i saw your comment.
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On October 07 2010 00:32 awesomoecalypse wrote:
Honestly, I think NTT is just bitching because while superior mechanics do definitely help, they don't create the MASSIVE gap they used to. If someone has superior mechanics, but their opponent outthinks them and has a better strategy, those mechanics often won't be enough to guarantee a victory.
im sad  really wanted to see ntt back in action
he was the reason i started to play terran back in the days
but your quote justifies why he just couldnt beat elky :D
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On October 07 2010 03:30 koreasilver wrote:
I highly doubt you can play a game anywhere as well as any top player in BW or SC2.
I meant I can micro/macro almost as well. Obviously SC2 pros are better versed in build orders, etc.
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8748 Posts
I think that since I had one of the safest and most conservative play styles in SC:BW I can comment a bit about this with some authority. Being able to beat every single simple, easy-to-execute (but powerful) strategy out there with your one safe strategy that sacrifices economic and army for safety, relying on superior mechanics to get you advantages in economy and army in the long run, is very very very hard. It's one of the most difficult ways to play but when you have a good formula, it can guarantee wins (especially in bo5's). Even for SC:BW 10 years after release, with so much time to refine and perfect build orders and mechanics, it is very difficult to play like that.
PvZ covering 4pool, 9pool speed, 2hat hydra bust, 2hat slow overlord drop, 2hat muta... wow. It can be quite a bitch. And after you sacrifice so many things to cover your ass against all that garbage that anyone can execute nearly perfectly with very little practice, you are probably just playing someone who 12hatched and grabbed a 3rd base and is macroing his ass off and now you're behind entering midgame. And then there are a million pitfalls there. Make 3 Archons instead of 2 and you won't have enough Storm. Get your 3rd Nexus blocked by one Zergling for 60 seconds and you won't have good enough economy in 5 minutes. Just a million things that can go wrong that only someone who has played this situation 1000's of times can know.
PvT proxy Marine rush, 2fac rush, 3fac rush, 1fac 1star drop harass, 2fac 1star drop harass, 14CC, etc. If they go standard fac cc you still worry about several branches in midgame, aggressive dropship harass, aggressive vulture harass, early 3rd CC, double armory, MM tank timing, 6fac timing. All that shit requires different responses from the Protoss. A terran who only does one of those things all the time is gonna be pretty damn good at it without much effort but a Protoss who is trying to play safe and rely on mechanics is going to have to master 10x as many situations as his opponent.
PvP proxy zealot rush, dt rush with no goon range, 10gate 15gate goon rush, 4gate goons, shuttle speed kamikaze reaver drop. Several choices of bullshit that you have to cover. Build one extra Probe and you won't have enough to fend off a 4gate. Scout after ylon to stop proxy zealot rush and risk not getting your first goons out in time to stop 10gate 15gate goon rush. You can't imagine how many little adjustments need to be made to get yourself safe against every option (how many times you have to lose and figure out precisely the smallest thing to change to just barely get by), and after all that effort you've only just survived into midgame with a probable disadvantage.
Proof of these difficulties can be seen in IdrA's play toward the end of his BW career. He was obviously very good mechanically but Terran in SC1 is an especially difficult race to play safe and cover all the bullshit that newbie one-trick-ponies can throw at you.
The fact is that it's going to take way longer and require much more skill and ingenuity to figure out the safe "boring" builds that rely on mechanics and RTS fundamentals to win. The simple yet powerful build orders are relatively easy to discover and they're being done everywhere right now. It is sad for me to see someone like NTT give up at this stage but I'm hoping it's because he just doesn't realize that the odds are stacked against the way he wants to play the game. That style is going to take time but the potential is definitely there.
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On October 07 2010 03:27 attackfighter wrote:
Well if he target fires your banelings with his tanks, there's not a whole lot you can do to counter-micro. Same thing if he's stimming his marines and kiting your banelings - either he kills them all kiting or you have enough left over to kill him. Maybe attack move isn't entirely accurate in TvZ, but the little micro there is seems fairly easy to do even for me (I am terribad btw) - I think it speaks volumes that I'm able to perform almost as good as your average pro at SC2, but in BW I'm so bad that I can't even begin to do the things a B-teamer pro can.
I love how your logic always assumes the exact counter is in play. If he goes tanks, I'd baneling drop, NOT run them in front. My example was versus bio ball. Tanks != bio ball. And banelings with speed can catch up to micro'd marines, not to mention you should always have lings mixed in to surround and stop the marines from stutter-step microing. Or just have fungal.
And umm, well, I'm not gonna say anything about your "I'm able to perform almost as good as your average pro at SC2" statement beyond that I'm sure an "average pro" would have plenty to say about that.
On Tyler's post: I completely agree, thank you for your insight ^_^
User was warned for this post. Don't clutter up topics with back and forth arguing use our PM function for that.
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NTT leaving SC2 , is a good thing ... very very good thing.
This is probably the only positive thing coming from NTT since like ... ever.
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I think it speaks volumes that I'm able to perform almost as good as your average pro at SC2
Unless you're like a top 500 player in the world, I really, really doubt this. Put IdrA against an average low or mid-level diamond player, and he will kick their ass 100% of the time.
The motto for Blizzard is, "easy to learn, hard to master." Its the "easy to learn" part that has a lot of BW players pissed off, because while BW was many things, "easy to learn" was not one of them. However, while it may be much easier for a noob to play at a reasonable level in SC2, there is still a vast gap between that level and the skill level of the top players. And the top players themselves haven't hit a "skill cap" either--nobody in the GSL had 100% perfect macro, no one had 100% micro, let alone both at the same time. And thats not even factoring in the strategic/decision-making element, which is still in a constantly evolving state.
It is highly probable that the level of play among progamers a year from now will be vastly more advanced than it is at the moment. And even at the moment, the level they are playing at when compared to the average SC2 player is a huge, huge gulf.
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Correct me if im wront but wasnt one of Testies aka's NTT? and if so he is not from EU he is Canadian... meaning this ISNT the real NTT?
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8748 Posts
And if I looked at a 20 minute NTT replay, I'm sure I could point out 50+ things that he did wrong (probably because he's not fast enough). If he did 50 little things better, perhaps he could survive against whatever gimmick was thrown at him and just laugh at the player who does something that has a 99% chance to fail against someone who knows what they're doing.
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On October 07 2010 03:38 Rinsho wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 03:27 attackfighter wrote:
Well if he target fires your banelings with his tanks, there's not a whole lot you can do to counter-micro. Same thing if he's stimming his marines and kiting your banelings - either he kills them all kiting or you have enough left over to kill him. Maybe attack move isn't entirely accurate in TvZ, but the little micro there is seems fairly easy to do even for me (I am terribad btw) - I think it speaks volumes that I'm able to perform almost as good as your average pro at SC2, but in BW I'm so bad that I can't even begin to do the things a B-teamer pro can. I love how your logic always assumes the exact counter is in play. If he goes tanks, I'd baneling drop, NOT run them in front. My example was versus bio ball. Tanks != bio ball. And banelings with speed can catch up to micro'd marines, not to mention you should always have lings mixed in to surround and stop the marines from stutter-step microing. Or just have fungal. And umm, well, I'm not gonna say anything about your "I'm able to perform almost as good as your average pro at SC2" statement beyond that I'm sure an "average pro" would have plenty to say about that. On Tyler's post: I completely agree, thank you for your insight ^_^
Overlord don't require much micro... basically you're arguing over hypothetical situations and not my actual point. My point is that there's less micro in SC2 then SC1, and that the little micro there is is easy to perform.
User was warned for this post. Don't clutter up topics with back and forth arguing use our PM function for that.
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On October 07 2010 03:36 FliedLice wrote:
cool, some random guy who never did shit in sc2 quits the game?
also he seems to be a dick
Fail comment.
I think Tyler's got a point tho.
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Tyler's post makes this whole thread worth it. I really can't wait til that kind of play is worked out for SC II :D
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On October 07 2010 03:47 PangO wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 03:36 FliedLice wrote:
cool, some random guy who never did shit in sc2 quits the game?
also he seems to be a dick Fail comment. I think Tyler's got a point tho.
I think Tyler nailed it...
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On October 07 2010 03:42 Fodder03 wrote:
Correct me if im wront but wasnt one of Testies aka's NTT? and if so he is not from EU he is Canadian... meaning this ISNT the real NTT?
Testie != NTT
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EPT
