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Knickknack
United States1187 Posts
putting nexus at 1-3 is not necessarily bad. You write off jangbi, nony, and others as newb, hah. Not everyone uses the p key. Personally, I like janbi's & bisu's setup the most, but the setups vary and as long as it works and your comfortable with it its fine. I would suggest that this is where rpfs troubles lie, he does not have the consistency and speed down. So it comes down to wanting to get better and practicing. | ||
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rS.NonY
United States286 Posts
and yeah, I realize that using F2 F3 F4 counters some of the arguments of using 11 22 33, etc, but they don't resolve everything. And also, my system frees F2 F3 F4 for other things. | ||
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
On March 18 2007 12:15 rS.NonY wrote: Heyyyyyy, yeah, nexus 1-3 isn't so bad. If you use mouse to build the probe, then it doesn't matter what hotkey the nexus is. If you use your nexus hotkey to center around your nexus (like hitting 11) then it doesn't matter what hotkey probe is. Besides, let's assume that most of the time, your left hand is on the left side of the keyboard. So when you decide to build a probe, you go "move hand to the right" --> "hit 0" --> "hit p" --> "move hand to the left". I would go "hit 1" --> "move hand to the right" --> "hit p" --> "move hand to the left". So whenever you only have 1 nexus hotkeyed, it doesn't make a difference. And for more than 1 nexus hotkeyed, I prefer "hit 1" --> "click" --> "hit 2" --> "click" --> "hit 3" --> "click". This might be a fraction of a second slower than 0p9p8p, but if you take into account that my hand stays to the left, in its default position, the whole time, I prefer mine. Also, having your 3 nexuses hotkeyed 1 2 3 makes it easy to go 11 22 33 to check everything, and to make your probes collect when they've finished building. and yeah, I realize that using F2 F3 F4 counters some of the arguments of using 11 22 33, etc, but they don't resolve everything. And also, my system frees F2 F3 F4 for other things. I see what your saying becuase i used to use this setup aswell. My contention is that all the korean progamers hold their hands a specific way. If you showed up in Korea to become a progamer and they saw you clicking on probes you'd get laughed at. You should always be hitting 0p0p0p at the start of the game and not clicking on the probe button. Your mouse will be more free to micro and if you hotkey an attacking unit as 8 or 7 early you can produce probes and even attack micro your units (using the patrol button) without moving your hands all over the keyboard. In fact, i believe korean proteams such as SK Telecom require their players to hold their hands in a very specific way. I've seen many Korean progamers play and they all seem to do this. I've also noticed that at the WCG world finals the higher ranking protoss players hold their hands like i have explained while the ones who do not make it out of their groups use their mouse to build units. I would also think that you would spend more time looking at your nexus or the bottom right side of the screen than watching your units or your opponents base or even the minimap assuming someone was using your method. Since your using your mouse to make probes any micro required in the instant such as microing a scouting probe away from a marine might case your probe production to be slowed down. Your method allows for a higher possiblity of delayed probe production and a higher risk of micro errors. With this being said i have seen many sucessful players such as yourself using diffrent hand methods than the ones i have proposed. But i feel that using " 0p9p " is an overall more effeicent method than the one you have given. However i think there is a distint pattern seen in the hand positions of the overall most sucessful players in the history of the game and that cannot be ignored. | ||
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
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rS.NonY
United States286 Posts
While I recognize that the popular system is very good, and the use of the patrol command is a nice addition to it (though you still need to use z and d), I think there's a possibility that either there's another system that's definitely better than it, or there's another system that has different strengths (ie generally better for micro or generally better for macro), or that, in the end, all the systems are pretty much the same as handspeed (for both hands) is maxed out. In fact, this latter case is pretty much guaranteed, but nobody can ever be that fast and perfect. But perhaps people can get fast and perfect enough so that any reasonably intelligent hotkey system would be indistinguishable in their play. Anyway, people shouldn't be discouraged from trying something simply because the trend among the top players is quite different. Revolutions in strategy come periodically, and a revolution in hotkeying could come as well. I think I have at least shown that hotkeying nexus to 1 is not entirely unreasonable. And personally, most of my losses come from poor decision making; hardly ever do I lose because I was simply too slow. That doesn't mean I couldn't be faster, but it at least means I'm doing as well as anyone in the speed department. And for how sporadically I practice, that's not bad. | ||
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Flyingsnow
Japan208 Posts
On March 18 2007 12:01 Knickknack wrote: uh flyingsnow i think you just described reach's keys. As far as I know, they basically use the same setup. Dunno about reach overwriting stuff, but I would assume they both overwrite gates at times. hmm oh opps. Well ya they do basically have the same set up I just forgot to mention that reach uses 1 as scouting probe and rA uses 2. A minute difference which is probably just based on preference. Anyways about the overwriting. This is just based on what ive seen when I get reach's hotkeys in some of the blizzcon replays. He overwrited his 1 or 2 to w/e he was focusing on at the moment. | ||
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Knickknack
United States1187 Posts
What exactly is this 'pro' way of holding ones hand? I recommend placing your wrist in the middle or slightly to left of the 1-0keys, so your keyboard reach is good and your pinkey is closer to shift/ctrl/z/. You can hit 1 with ring and 0p by just moving wrist. Other then that, who cares. There really is not a big difference. Guess he picked 'Reach' because he likes to reach across the keyboard unnecessarily. -.- Seriously though, not a big difference and I bet Reach could change and play just as well soon enough. The problem is that you are saying this is the optimal way to play, while nony and I would disagree or at least say that they are all so close as long as it is reasonable. | ||
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SainT
Chile1067 Posts
On March 18 2007 02:40 BluzMan wrote: Mass rally technique I use - location hotkey for gates + location hotkey for rally point (usually f2 and f4). Then f2 - click gate - f4 - right click, repeat. The rest of hotkeys: 0-8 first three nexii, 9 and 8 used for scouting and proxying probe respectively and the beginning. 1-2 units 3 shuttle 4-5 initial gateways late game 1-5 troops, 6 shuttles. 7 - the monster unused hotkey. i pretty much do the same, i learned GARIMTO's hots years ago  | ||
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rpf
United States2705 Posts
Anyways, I have a question: when you guys are saying that you use 1-3 or 4 for units...seriously how can you only ever have 4 groups hotkeyed? Or are you just talking about early game? I mean, I often get up to 5 or 6 groups hotkeyed that I'm using. Maybe I need to be spreading my units more, and leaving some not hotkeyed at important expos? The main reason I made this thread is because the system I use early game doesn't work late game as I've overwritten some of my gates, and then I think it makes it harder to macro because I can't go "5-5" to go back to my big cluster of gates. Maybe I should try using F2-4? | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
It all goes down to presonal preference, some work better for others and some work better for you, so do what gives the comfortible feel. | ||
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orionClan
Canada188 Posts
when you get the 6th(gate) you then do this: late game- 12345(units),678(gates),90(nexus) when you hotkeys the units always make the final hotkey the air units can be combonation of obs/shuttle/anything air. so in this 12345(units) 5(air) so in this 123(units) 3(air) etc... f2f3f4(third,fourth,fifth nexus) 678(gates) you must learn to use your (mouse) this is more important than hotkeying, or else! 66-jumps you to the gateway, then select the rest in that group, 66= pressing the number 6 two times for the hotkey jump ability. 7 would be anothter group and 8 also. good gaming!~~ | ||
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
On March 18 2007 20:58 rpf wrote: As I've already said, f2-f4 is very efficient for macro late-game. It all depends on your playing method. If you're expanding constantly and don't tend towards big fights, then you can easily macro for the whole game with 4-6 gateways. It is naturally better to use numerical hotkeys there. If you play hardcore war from 2 bases without building pylons/depots for the sake of losing your army fast, then you'll end up with many gates and f-keys are preferred there. F-keys are not that good because of easy macro. They are good because you'll have a bajillion free number keys right from the start (I never bother to hotkey more than 2 gates in most matches) and they are good because your f4 will be on the rally point, which means that getting reinforcements will be as easy as F4<>select<>hotkey assign<>A<>left click on the minimap. Not to mention that controlling 15 gates PvT with numerical hotkeys is just absurd in any case.I really like what Tasteless and Nony have said. Tasteless told me some things about how Koreans use their keyboard and why he thinks it gives them an edge. Maybe he'd like to elaborate on it some more. It was something I thought was really cool. Anyways, I have a question: when you guys are saying that you use 1-3 or 4 for units...seriously how can you only ever have 4 groups hotkeyed? Or are you just talking about early game? I mean, I often get up to 5 or 6 groups hotkeyed that I'm using. Maybe I need to be spreading my units more, and leaving some not hotkeyed at important expos? The main reason I made this thread is because the system I use early game doesn't work late game as I've overwritten some of my gates, and then I think it makes it harder to macro because I can't go "5-5" to go back to my big cluster of gates. Maybe I should try using F2-4? As to 0-nexus, it just comes to personal preference. I like to be able to hit a quick 0-p during battle without moving the mouse. It's just my personal feeling that mouse is more important for a toss than keyboard - most of your units don't have any special powers, micro comes down to fast and precise click. (especially shuttle micro to which toss resorts very often) I have a feeling that I don't have the luxury to ever hover my mouse over the commands sub-window. But Nony just made a perfect point about personal preference. Try out different systems and see what's best for you. | ||
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Equinox_kr
United States7395 Posts
On March 17 2007 19:26 GrandInquisitor wrote: i hotkey 8 9 0 to initial nexus just cause if i miss 0 i still hit 9, which is hotkeyed to the same thing Haha I never thought of that, but however as far as I remember I've never misclicked my Nexus O_O | ||
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
On March 18 2007 14:57 Knickknack wrote: Um, how hard is it to find out that many (and probably the majority of) pros do not do 0p or scout on8. Nexus on 4: Pusan, Stork, Bisu, Daezang, PJ, Anytime. Nexus on 3: Tempest, free, draco. Nexus on 2: asuka. Nexus on 1, Jangbi, bestgod. Nexus on 6, Tester, Sea.pure. Nexus on 7, Zeus. Etc, etc. What exactly is this 'pro' way of holding ones hand? I recommend placing your wrist in the middle or slightly to left of the 1-0keys, so your keyboard reach is good and your pinkey is closer to shift/ctrl/z/. You can hit 1 with ring and 0p by just moving wrist. Other then that, who cares. There really is not a big difference. Guess he picked 'Reach' because he likes to reach across the keyboard unnecessarily. -.- Seriously though, not a big difference and I bet Reach could change and play just as well soon enough. The problem is that you are saying this is the optimal way to play, while nony and I would disagree or at least say that they are all so close as long as it is reasonable. hm hold your left hand out over your keyboard and look at it. Now, place your right thumb over the right ctrl key and streatch your pinky to the farthest number key over to the right. How far can your pinky reach while still holding the right ctrl key with your thumb? most people can only reach the 4-5 key by doing this. My hand can actually reach the 2 key becuase i have very large hands. Nal ra and reach both have big hands aswell and use the hotkey setup i was talking about. Players with smaller hands set the nexus as 3 because traveling from 0 to their hotkeyed gateways is too difficult. people are talking about how they need to move their hands all over they keyboard hiting going from tasks like 0p9p8d7d6d5d4d and that this setup somehow makes it more difficult. Understand that becuase of my hand size there is little difficulty in streching my fingers while doing this. What i'm saying is people with bigger hands would probably prefer my setup while people with smaller hands would probably prefer seting the nexus as 3. But i think you missed my point with always using 2 keys on the keyboard like 0p9p rahter than using the mouse to produce units 1 [click probe] 2 [click probe]. Obviously nony is very fast at this or he wouldn't still be using it. The problem is that you have to look at the probe button when your clicking on it. By glancing at this location on the screen repeatedly you have a higher chance of missing something on the minimap. I also don't understand how you can easily produce probes and micro anything while this is happening. if your always using your mouse to control your units while breifly tabbing your hotkeys to produce units there is less room for error. I'm not saying every single pro ever uses the EXACT same hotkey setup. They all have diffrent hand sizes and some setups work better with diffrent hand sizes. What i am saying is that they ALL use hotkeys to produce units early and do not click on the unit icon. lategame when your macroing out of 20 gateways it's diffrent. But early game by utilizing the keyboard hotkey setup one can preform all early game tasks 10x more efficently than using the mouse to an unnecessary extent. | ||
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Loophole
United States867 Posts
Tasteless, didn't you used to be T? I remember playing pvt vs you at WCG Chicago. Maybe you were just being nice to the newb and using off race? =D | ||
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ilovezil
United States4143 Posts
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Knickknack
United States1187 Posts
I see what your saying in that attention is better focused elsewhere, but I dunno how much it really matters. But, perhaps if I actually played I would see the sense in use 0p or just p as well more. But lets admit first of all that keys were made by what letter they start with, practical in a way, but really silly. T has easy access to scv, so p may as well have easy access to p. | ||
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Naib
Hungary4904 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
for me.. its 1- scouting probe 2- building probe (ie when i send a probe to build gateway ill hotkey it 2) 3- nexus 4- expo nexus (i play fe alot) 5-0 - gateways then later in the game 1-4 (567) - units 890 gateways simple yet effective | ||
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
On April 16 2007 18:33 Loophole wrote: Some good advice guys. I always hotkey nex to 1 and 2 early game and then switch to f2-f4 when i need to hotkey unit groups, but it seems to make much more sense to use 90 for nex, being right next to p. Reaching across the keyboard to hit p always slows me down a lot! Tasteless, didn't you used to be T? I remember playing pvt vs you at WCG Chicago. Maybe you were just being nice to the newb and using off race? =D i played random for a very long time. while it gave me a better grasp of the game overall, it definitely put my hokey usage behind | ||
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