EPTmuta player can just expand as much as he likes and get more stuff to beat you later on.
[H] 1900 Zerg ZvZ help - Page 2
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Andre112
Canada52 Posts
muta player can just expand as much as he likes and get more stuff to beat you later on. | ||
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BleaK_
Norway593 Posts
On November 26 2010 05:21 Andre112 wrote: I know that hydra infestors shuts down muta harrass. but how to you gain map control? muta player can just expand as much as he likes and get more stuff to beat you later on. get enough spores/queens and push out, he will loose more mutas if he try to attack your base and will not have enough to defend his own base. | ||
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nehl
Germany270 Posts
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Google.
Germany50 Posts
now i'm playing lots of random and I lost many points. Whenever I random zerg it's usually a stomp so i'm not taking my current ZvZ into account | ||
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Weken
United Kingdom580 Posts
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dementrio
678 Posts
On November 26 2010 06:10 BleaK_ wrote: get enough spores/queens and push out, he will loose more mutas if he try to attack your base and will not have enough to defend his own base. If you go roach/hydra you need high hydra numbers in your army because if you lose then you automatically lose everything else to mutas. however hydras are very weak to banelings. typically villain will have a baneling nest and a ton of speedlings ready - you have a small timing window to attack (before his 3rd kicks in) and you have to hope he wont be able to get enough banelings in time. For these reasons so far ive found very very hard to win if I get behind in the muta count and Ive been able to pull it off only on very short rush distances (i.e. close positions on 4player maps). People complain zvz is BO roshambo, I think early game is actually the interesting part - after that you just need mutas, mutas, and more mutas or youll lose. edit: conversely if I see someone go roach hydra I just take the free win. | ||
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Riselol
United States4 Posts
-13gas -13pool -Speed with first 100 gas -Second gas at ~21 -Spine Crawler and Tumor with your first Queen, block the ramp with your Queen and have the spine crawler sitting behind it, this prevents most early Baneling/Speedling/Roach rushes -Second Queen -Lair with your next 100 gas -Speedling production can vary based on what you scout and how much initial pressure you want to put on, I've won a few games outright with a few extra rounds of Speedlings against players who try to fast expand with only Roaches defending -Spire, and stockpile gas and supply for Mutas, once Spire pops you should have extra minerals floating to expand behind your Mutas. -Use Mutas to gain map control, then tech to whatever you want while saturating your expo Only maps this doesn't seem to work on are Blistering Sands due to the backdoor rocks, and Scrap Station, as it takes way too much to block your ramp against any kind of rush. ~2k diamond | ||
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OmniscientSC2
United States713 Posts
10/10 double extractor trick 12/10 spawning pool 11/10 overlord 11/10 double extractor trick . Make 6 lingoes and a queen when the pool is done, the drone up. You will kill at least 1 drone hopefully, and force your opponent to get lingoes instead of drones. Zvz is all about scouting though, so either go a safe roach build, or get speedlings asap. I really like +1 roach builds into expos. Mass +1 lings are also very viable. Also very good v 6 pools. The tip above about the spine crawler is very good though. I saw ogsthewind do it in his gsl match | ||
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Chinesewonder
Canada354 Posts
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Angelbelow
United States3728 Posts
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MorsCerta
United States234 Posts
I guess I'll have to try out everything and see what I like best No one really has anything to say about the replays though? Nothing horribly wrong with my play? Any advice? I don't care if you watched all of them or not but something. | ||
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Angelbelow
United States3728 Posts
On November 27 2010 03:13 MorsCerta wrote: Everyone gives such different advice :/ I guess I'll have to try out everything and see what I like best No one really has anything to say about the replays though? Nothing horribly wrong with my play? Any advice? I don't care if you watched all of them or not but something. I plan to, but its thanksgiving weekend here in the US. so its a bit hectic =p. But for what its worth, im a 600 diamond who hasnt laddered 1v1 in a while (doing lots of 2s,3s,4s). I do actively keep up with major tournaments (mainly GSL but I watch also all the games). Been more active on ladder with 1s in the past week but ill try to help with some feedback. | ||
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Chocobo
United States1108 Posts
I went through a stretch of copying what my previous opponent beat me with, and lost almost every game. At one point I was 1-19 in my last 20 games. Then I won 7 ZvZs in a row. Why? Couldn't even tell you. It seems so hard to find a gameplan that works with any consistency. | ||
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MorsCerta
United States234 Posts
 And I know what your saying chocobo. It's so freaking random | ||
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Angelbelow
United States3728 Posts
On November 29 2010 02:03 MorsCerta wrote: Yeah I know its thanksgiving I live in the US too And I know what your saying chocobo. It's so freaking random I was able to watch your game on SP against Eros. A few things that stood out to me: 1. Eros knew exactly what he wanted to do with his build order. He got a quick lair into expand and spire. You appeared to be more on the reactive side, just waiting to see what he was going before you react. 2. Upgrades, maybe this was because you weren't 100% sure what you wanted to go for but your attack upgrade and hydra range could have started a bit earlier. 3. Infestors earlier, if you can catch his mutas out of position and finish them off with your hydras, you would have a pretty big lead. 4. He seemed to have a clear idea of what he wanted, Lings into Mutas into hive tech, ling attack upgrades and ultras. 5. I think your scouting was really good. Maybe a few secs. earlier would be even better. I think if you were more decisive or had a set plan in mind you would have won that game easily. Again, im a low diamond player so I don't know if my advice is worth much but those are a few things that stood out to me. Lately, Ive been trying the nestea build vs sen on Scrap station. His build might be map specific but im going to test it out and learn from there. He rushes with speedlings and roaches using the lings to harass the econ line and queens while using his roaches to fight off the opponents roaches or lings. | ||
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MorsCerta
United States234 Posts
On November 30 2010 18:57 Angelbelow wrote: I was able to watch your game on SP against Eros. A few things that stood out to me: 1. Eros knew exactly what he wanted to do with his build order. He got a quick lair into expand and spire. You appeared to be more on the reactive side, just waiting to see what he was going before you react. 2. Upgrades, maybe this was because you weren't 100% sure what you wanted to go for but your attack upgrade and hydra range could have started a bit earlier. 3. Infestors earlier, if you can catch his mutas out of position and finish them off with your hydras, you would have a pretty big lead. 4. He seemed to have a clear idea of what he wanted, Lings into Mutas into hive tech, ling attack upgrades and ultras. 5. I think your scouting was really good. Maybe a few secs. earlier would be even better. I think if you were more decisive or had a set plan in mind you would have won that game easily. Again, im a low diamond player so I don't know if my advice is worth much but those are a few things that stood out to me. Lately, Ive been trying the nestea build vs sen on Scrap station. His build might be map specific but im going to test it out and learn from there. He rushes with speedlings and roaches using the lings to harass the econ line and queens while using his roaches to fight off the opponents roaches or lings. I have rarely gone into a ZvZ with a set plan lol. I am always reacting | ||
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HardCorey
United States709 Posts
HardCorey QuestionTime #7: ZvZ Rock, Paper, Scissors My Main Thread Hope this helps, -HardCorey Edit: video works great. | ||
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JMDj
United States454 Posts
Here's my two cents, hopefully it can help some of you guys out: 1. The opening: -I tend to go very fast scout in ZvZ to see what my opponent is opening with ASAP. -If they go pool first or any one base play I do the same and try to get my pool just slightly later than they do (so that I have a slightly better economy) and will almost always go roach (if they go roach) or roach/baneling if they stick with just lings/banes. -If they go hatch first I open with my open fast hatch or 1 base speedling/baneling (14gas 13pool) and do a very aggressive timing attack around the time ling speed finishes. This usually kills them and if it doesn't it leaves them too far behind to recover -I think at lower levels most games are won/lost in the early game ZvZ, learning how to hold and counter your opponent's openings will allow you to get to the late game and outplay your opponent 2. Mid/Late game: -Really, the most viable option for late game ZvZ is Roach/Infestor and maybe some hydras if they have mutas -Upgrades are so extremely important in ZvZ. I tend to get +1 ranged attack as soon as I feel safe on 2 base (~6-8 roaches). Make sure you are continuing to upgrade throughout the game -Scouting is key. You need to make sure you know how many units your opponent has at any given point and if they are teching to anything that might catch you offguard. Also be wary of units that may be hiding in corners of their base to surprise you -With good scouting you can afford to drone at the right times. I try to always have just slightly less roaches than my opponent and spend the extra larvae on drones. When you see them pushing out simply make enough roaches to hold the attack and you will be in good shape -This is a rule you should follow in all matchups but it is extremely important in ZvZ: When you are ahead DO NOT attack unless you are WAY ahead. It is much better to be safe than sorry. If you get ahead, just expand and get farther ahead. Wait for them to attack and you should crush it. -If your opponent is not pushing out and you are both even, go for an expansion to force them to attack you General Rules for ZvZ: -Make sure you have overlords spread out across the map so you can see when your opponent's units are at all times and constantly be watching the minimap. Overlord speed is a great late game upgrade to get -ZvZ is, in my opinion, the most fragile matchup, especially early on. Making a round of drones at the wrong time could cost you the game, so always be careful not to drone too hard or to make too many units -Supply blocks can be deadly, especially when your opponent makes a push. Always try to be at least 2 overlords ahead of what you actually need -Try to always be just slightly ahead in economy while not being too far behind in unit count so that if your opponent pushes out you can make enough units to hold the attack -If you find yourself in an awkward position (behind in economy but ahead in tech, behind in units but ahead in economy, etc) try to play to whatever advantages you have and play intelligently -If you feel confident enough to push out you might want to try to go for some sort of timing pushes when upgrades complete, I have found that some of these are highly effective -Mid/Late game ZvZ really just comes down to general starcraft tactics, just with a lot less room for error than the other matchups Any comments/feedback welcomed. | ||
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JMDj
United States454 Posts
On November 27 2010 03:13 MorsCerta wrote: Everyone gives such different advice :/ I guess I'll have to try out everything and see what I like best No one really has anything to say about the replays though? Nothing horribly wrong with my play? Any advice? I don't care if you watched all of them or not but something. I'm going to watch some of your replays when I get home and see if I can give any advice! | ||
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Hurkyl
304 Posts
On December 03 2010 09:03 Xde wrote:-If they go pool first or any one base play I do the same and try to get my pool just slightly later than they do (so that I have a slightly better economy) You know that's only strictly true BW, right? While this gets you a dozen or so extra minerals in SC2, it also delays your larvae production because of the delayed queen. Delaying the pool is quite counterproductive for many openings. | ||
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