|
Ok, let me try:
Guys stop being racist on people who use racial slurs as an insult.
You guys have no right to complain and are obviously jelly of the players(more like Playahs am i rite?) there is obviously no reason for someone to complain about the use of racial slurs other than jelly and hate.
Also stop trying to actively kill e sports by not being always 100% behind the teams and players. You are not allowed to complain nor disagree with them because it kills esports. Don't snitch on the players or teams, I am sure the sponsors will love it when they find out both of them have been lying to them. And we all know you guys are jelly anyways. Haters gonna hate etc...
Also stop discussing this you are the minority according to my statistics (99.999% agree with me according to the last census).
|
I think much of this discussion is putting the cart before the horse. If anything in these cases is "harming" the growth of the e-Sports scene, it's the public displays of insensitivity towards racism from prominent members of the community. The problem here isn't consumers expressing their opinions to sponsors; it's individual members of the community who receive sponsored support behaving in ways that sponsors find unacceptable.
From the broadest possible perspective, individuals have a right to their opinions (whatever they are - I would not even assume from Orb or Desinty's limited comments that they are actually racist) and the right to express those opinions. I would never advocate silencing these people in an absolute sense - ultimately, the right to human self-expression is far and away more important than the health of e-Sports. In the same way, people who find these particular comments offensive have a right to express their opinions to sponsors, whatever the impact on the e-Sports scene might be.
From the perspective of growing the e-Sports scene, however, it is important to remember that it is the particular individuals in question (for lack of other immediate examples, Orb and Destiny) who have said things that are offensive to the sponsors, not the consumers. By accepting sponsorship, these individuals take on an ethical responsibility to behave in ways of which the sponsors approve, including limiting their self-expression in cases where the sponsor disagrees with their message. If they do not feel they can live up to these ethical standards, then they should refuse to accept further sponsorship, and express their opinions in any way they see fit. If, however, an individual accepts sponsorship and then behaves in a way of which the sponsor does not approve, then it is that individual who is "harming e-Sports," not the consumer base as a whole.
EDIT - I guess I should add, I agree in general with the point that if one finds an individual's behavior offensive, the best way to proceed is to contact the team (if applicable) before contacting the sponsor. As an institution, the team is the group responsible for ensuring that individual members comply with the ethical standards of which the sponsors approve. Only in a blatant instance of a team ignoring a sponsor's desires would I suggest going over a team's head to contact the sponsors. That said, the real problem here is not "snitches," but the individuals who are behaving unethically by accepting sponsorship while behaving in ways of which the sponsor does not approve.
|
On May 08 2012 04:21 crocodile wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 04:07 Roe wrote:
1. This is an entertainment industry
2. I am not entertained by racism/homophobia
C: I don't want to watch/listen to people like the casters you mentioned So don't watch them. Which part of that means you have to hurt Quantic's relationship with their sponsors? Also: thank you Dosey, for being reasonable and making some sense. If you're frustrated by this thread like I am, it might make you feel better to know that there are people who agree with you 100%. There is no point in having freedoms if we can't tolerate them taken to their extreme. That's why you can't fight Westboro Baptist Church; they have the right to do what they do, even if the fucking KKK thinks they're assholes.
Your point is absurd. We have the choice whether or not to tolerate that kind of ignorance in our community, because it's just that. TL is not some fucking libertarian paradise LOL.
Also Dosey has posted more strawmen in this thread than anything so unfortunately if you would be so kind as to Google that term you would find that in fact he's not making sense. He's arguing against imaginary personality assassins and the like. As well as somehow including the point that the people arguing against racist/hateful language being broadcast are worse than the people actually using that language. Incredible cognitive dissonance there.
|
On May 08 2012 04:05 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 04:01 Fubi wrote:On May 08 2012 03:59 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 03:44 Fubi wrote:On May 08 2012 03:29 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 03:26 Fubi wrote:On May 08 2012 03:21 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 03:03 Govou wrote:On May 08 2012 02:56 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 02:50 windsupernova wrote:
[quote]
Because going to the sponsor is the only real way we have to really pressure a team over an issue?
So the threat to report them to a sponsor wouldn't work? How so? They obviously know you are serious. Fact is, if it is solved internally after your initial threat, there is no major backlash and you dont feel the importance that you feel now. All eyes are on you and your ilk because you had a hand in the current incident. You now feel important. If you send a quiet e-mail to quantic about Destiny and he is barred from the next event and doesnt stream for a month... people just assume he went MIA. You can't come to the forums and announce "IT WAS ME MUAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAH I SHUT DOWN THAT IGNORANT PRICK I DID IT IT WAS MEEEEEEEEE" your whole argument is wrong because you believe people do this to feel they are important. please try again Then at least try to answer the simple question I have asked multiple times with no valid answer. Why not report it to the team with your threats and demand a response? Why go directly to the sponsors? And for the one who said "How do you know that we didn't go to the team first?" Are you blind? The proof is everywhere. eG was BLINDSIDED by this and that is fact. The quantic manager himself has posted in this thread stating they should have came to him first and not gone to the sponsors. Another situation proving they went around the team directly toward the sponsor. Because sponsors are the ones that are directly paying them. Also, this helps to make sure teams be more careful in the future when picking players; shouldn't simply pick players just because they are popular, as some of the popularity could of came from being infamous. Either way, the people had every rights to do so. So it boils down to the fact that you didn't want such a person employed. You wanted his career ended because he is such a racist piece of shit? You wanted to teach their team a lesson by putting the entire team at risk for one persons mistake? "They lose their livelihood if they dont comply, THAT oughta teach them!!!" Makes sense :roll: Yes, it boils down to the fact that people didn't want such a racist person employed. They didn't want a "racist piece of shit" getting paid to be racist. And they wanted to teach teams a lesson so that in the future, they are clean of such racism within our e-sport community. Yes, you are correct. So what's the problem? Do you realize how ridiculous and utterly self-important this sounds? " I don't think you deserve a job because you are racist so I am going to do everything in my power to make sure you dont have a job" You are aware that your statements are more hate-filled than the offender, correct? He has a RIGHT to be racist if he wants to be racist (not that he is). Guess what? The KKK could set up shop right outside your front yard and there isn't a damn thing you could do about it so long as they have a legal permit. It is their right. Your reasoning has got to be the most intolerant bigoted thing I've ever read... and it disgusts me. Wait what? So you're saying it's ok if people get paid for being racist? I'm sorry dude, but I'm curious, did you time travel to the future from 1950? DEFENSE ATTORNEYS DEFEND MURDERERS, THEY MUST BE MURDERERS THEMSELVES AND SUPPORT MURDER OMG!!!!111! No, I'm not saying being racist is "okay" However, it is their right to be racist if they wish and to bring ill will upon someone who is racist is even more intolerant that said racist person and is even more of a hate crime. You people remind me of those religious fanatics that protest Army funerals. You make me sick.
I just joined this thread and I have to say this is one of the most poignant things I have read in an internet forum. I hope people are able to take a step back and realize how apt this is.
|
On May 08 2012 03:42 HorsemasterK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 03:41 windsupernova wrote:On May 08 2012 03:39 gogatorsfoster wrote:On May 08 2012 03:32 Terrafros wrote:
Naniwa's case went too far.
Orb's case went too far.
Destiny's case was proper.
In the first two, the team was not contacted. In the third, it was. If a team chooses not to listen to the fans, then they can go to the sponsors instead. This was not a case of immediate contact with the sponsors, Quantic chose to ignore the complaints about Destiny's behaviour, and thus, their sponsors got involved. A lot of people keep saying that quantic did nothing, the whole ordeal happened over the course of 3 days max. And you can bet people didnt wait to e-mail sponsors in the first place. I feel like if you really feel the need to pitchfork you should at least give the team a week or even 5 days. The team cant instantly fire someone they have to decide if it is justified or not. Team"We are looking into this claims" Doesn't seems it takes a week to do this. Especially when this is a pattern of behavior, and one that started BEFORE he even joined the team. They can't claim ignorance on this one.
The funny thing is that this raises the question of why the people who emailed the sponsors waited for a public drama thread rather than emailin right after Quantic signed destiny. If their excuse for the question of why they didn't give Quantic even 5 days to respond is "well Quantic already knew his behavior so what's gonna change now", then surely they would have emailed Razer right when quantic signed destiny, right? After all it's not like Quantic or destiny were going to change their ways down the line. But of course it wasn't until drama erupted that they got "outraged", because they're not really standin up for racial equality, they just are getting something out of fueling the flames of some drama.
|
On May 08 2012 04:21 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 04:08 tripp6sic6 wrote:On May 08 2012 04:05 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 04:01 Fubi wrote:On May 08 2012 03:59 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 03:44 Fubi wrote:On May 08 2012 03:29 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 03:26 Fubi wrote:On May 08 2012 03:21 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 03:03 Govou wrote:
[quote]
your whole argument is wrong because you believe people do this to feel they are important.
please try again Then at least try to answer the simple question I have asked multiple times with no valid answer. Why not report it to the team with your threats and demand a response? Why go directly to the sponsors? And for the one who said "How do you know that we didn't go to the team first?" Are you blind? The proof is everywhere. eG was BLINDSIDED by this and that is fact. The quantic manager himself has posted in this thread stating they should have came to him first and not gone to the sponsors. Another situation proving they went around the team directly toward the sponsor. Because sponsors are the ones that are directly paying them. Also, this helps to make sure teams be more careful in the future when picking players; shouldn't simply pick players just because they are popular, as some of the popularity could of came from being infamous. Either way, the people had every rights to do so. So it boils down to the fact that you didn't want such a person employed. You wanted his career ended because he is such a racist piece of shit? You wanted to teach their team a lesson by putting the entire team at risk for one persons mistake? "They lose their livelihood if they dont comply, THAT oughta teach them!!!" Makes sense :roll: Yes, it boils down to the fact that people didn't want such a racist person employed. They didn't want a "racist piece of shit" getting paid to be racist. And they wanted to teach teams a lesson so that in the future, they are clean of such racism within our e-sport community. Yes, you are correct. So what's the problem? Do you realize how ridiculous and utterly self-important this sounds? " I don't think you deserve a job because you are racist so I am going to do everything in my power to make sure you dont have a job" You are aware that your statements are more hate-filled than the offender, correct? He has a RIGHT to be racist if he wants to be racist (not that he is). Guess what? The KKK could set up shop right outside your front yard and there isn't a damn thing you could do about it so long as they have a legal permit. It is their right. Your reasoning has got to be the most intolerant bigoted thing I've ever read... and it disgusts me. Wait what? So you're saying it's ok if people get paid for being racist? I'm sorry dude, but I'm curious, did you time travel to the future from 1950? DEFENSE ATTORNEYS DEFEND MURDERERS, THEY MUST BE MURDERERS THEMSELVES AND SUPPORT MURDER OMG!!!!111! No, I'm not saying being racist is "okay" However, it is their right to be racist if they wish and to bring ill will upon someone who is racist is even more intolerant that said racist person and is even more of a hate crime. You people remind me of those religious fanatics that protest Army funerals. You make me sick. But they don't have a right to maintain employment. You have a right to exist as a racist. This is true. But you have no right to hold a job, while you cause problems for the company you represent by being a racist. If the company is willing to put up with it, you keep your job. They aren't, you are fired. That's the real world. You obviously weren't here for the evolution of the conversation. I asked them to provide a reason as to why they cant go to the team rather than directly to the sponsor. Quoted said "To teach them a lesson for employing a racist!" That, in itself, is hate. There is no logical reason provided as to why things can't be handled in a civil manner, they instantly go to the racism card and spew their hate for the offender directly at the sponsor. By the way, No, you can't fire someone for being a racist, just like you can't fire someone for being black, asian, woman, gay, straight, bi, handicapped, atheist, muslim, christian, rastafarian, blind, etc... That is called intolerance and frowned upon by our government. Yes, you can be fired for inappropriate language in a normal work environment, but that is another silly notion considering the number of F-bombs dropped by even the friendliest of our community pillars, Day[9]. So, the argument of "inappropriate language in a normal workplace gets you fired" is null and void. So lets just go on and scoop that out the window as well. All that is left here is hate. Hate for "Hate Speech" which is still HATE. The quoted wanted to punish the offenders for daring to spout "hate speech" and they made it their personal mission to hurt this person. Regardless of who else was hurt in the process. That didnt matter, because he HATED the way the offenders spoke. This type of intolerence is just as bad if not worse than what the offenders did.
There is a BIG difference between F-bombs and racist language.
Your arguments rely on the fact that they have the rights to be racist so we shouldn't be hating? Well guess what, by the same argument, people have to rights to complain to sponsors as well, so YOU shouldn't be complaining.
|
On May 08 2012 04:21 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 04:08 tripp6sic6 wrote:On May 08 2012 04:05 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 04:01 Fubi wrote:On May 08 2012 03:59 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 03:44 Fubi wrote:On May 08 2012 03:29 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 03:26 Fubi wrote:On May 08 2012 03:21 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 03:03 Govou wrote:
[quote]
your whole argument is wrong because you believe people do this to feel they are important.
please try again Then at least try to answer the simple question I have asked multiple times with no valid answer. Why not report it to the team with your threats and demand a response? Why go directly to the sponsors? And for the one who said "How do you know that we didn't go to the team first?" Are you blind? The proof is everywhere. eG was BLINDSIDED by this and that is fact. The quantic manager himself has posted in this thread stating they should have came to him first and not gone to the sponsors. Another situation proving they went around the team directly toward the sponsor. Because sponsors are the ones that are directly paying them. Also, this helps to make sure teams be more careful in the future when picking players; shouldn't simply pick players just because they are popular, as some of the popularity could of came from being infamous. Either way, the people had every rights to do so. So it boils down to the fact that you didn't want such a person employed. You wanted his career ended because he is such a racist piece of shit? You wanted to teach their team a lesson by putting the entire team at risk for one persons mistake? "They lose their livelihood if they dont comply, THAT oughta teach them!!!" Makes sense :roll: Yes, it boils down to the fact that people didn't want such a racist person employed. They didn't want a "racist piece of shit" getting paid to be racist. And they wanted to teach teams a lesson so that in the future, they are clean of such racism within our e-sport community. Yes, you are correct. So what's the problem? Do you realize how ridiculous and utterly self-important this sounds? " I don't think you deserve a job because you are racist so I am going to do everything in my power to make sure you dont have a job" You are aware that your statements are more hate-filled than the offender, correct? He has a RIGHT to be racist if he wants to be racist (not that he is). Guess what? The KKK could set up shop right outside your front yard and there isn't a damn thing you could do about it so long as they have a legal permit. It is their right. Your reasoning has got to be the most intolerant bigoted thing I've ever read... and it disgusts me. Wait what? So you're saying it's ok if people get paid for being racist? I'm sorry dude, but I'm curious, did you time travel to the future from 1950? DEFENSE ATTORNEYS DEFEND MURDERERS, THEY MUST BE MURDERERS THEMSELVES AND SUPPORT MURDER OMG!!!!111! No, I'm not saying being racist is "okay" However, it is their right to be racist if they wish and to bring ill will upon someone who is racist is even more intolerant that said racist person and is even more of a hate crime. You people remind me of those religious fanatics that protest Army funerals. You make me sick. But they don't have a right to maintain employment. You have a right to exist as a racist. This is true. But you have no right to hold a job, while you cause problems for the company you represent by being a racist. If the company is willing to put up with it, you keep your job. They aren't, you are fired. That's the real world. You obviously weren't here for the evolution of the conversation. I asked them to provide a reason as to why they cant go to the team rather than directly to the sponsor. Quoted said "To teach them a lesson for employing a racist!" That, in itself, is hate. There is no logical reason provided as to why things can't be handled in a civil manner, they instantly go to the racism card and spew their hate for the offender directly at the sponsor. By the way, No, you can't fire someone for being a racist, just like you can't fire someone for being black, asian, woman, gay, straight, bi, handicapped, atheist, muslim, christian, rastafarian, blind, etc... That is called intolerance and frowned upon by our government. Yes, you can be fired for inappropriate language in a normal work environment, but that is another silly notion considering the number of F-bombs dropped by even the friendliest of our community pillars, Day[9]. So, the argument of "inappropriate language in a normal workplace gets you fired" is null and void. So lets just go on and scoop that out the window as well. All that is left here is hate. Hate for "Hate Speech" which is still HATE. The quoted wanted to punish the offenders for daring to spout "hate speech" and they made it their personal mission to hurt this person. Regardless of who else was hurt in the process. That didnt matter, because he HATED the way the offenders spoke. This type of intolerence is just as bad if not worse than what the offenders did.
Could you elaborate on why you think everybody that doesn't want to accept that people using racial slurs (and are thus being perceived as behaving like racists) are part of the professional gaming culture is automatically hating these people? I don't hate anybody, to me it's more like disagreeing and expressing my opinion (although I didn't mail sponsors in the Destiny case). That to me is on a completely, let me stress that again, completely different level than racial slurs. Also, "what Naniwa did" and Day[9] using the F-word is on a completely different level. Completely.
|
On May 08 2012 04:34 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 03:42 HorsemasterK wrote:On May 08 2012 03:41 windsupernova wrote:On May 08 2012 03:39 gogatorsfoster wrote:On May 08 2012 03:32 Terrafros wrote:
Naniwa's case went too far.
Orb's case went too far.
Destiny's case was proper.
In the first two, the team was not contacted. In the third, it was. If a team chooses not to listen to the fans, then they can go to the sponsors instead. This was not a case of immediate contact with the sponsors, Quantic chose to ignore the complaints about Destiny's behaviour, and thus, their sponsors got involved. A lot of people keep saying that quantic did nothing, the whole ordeal happened over the course of 3 days max. And you can bet people didnt wait to e-mail sponsors in the first place. I feel like if you really feel the need to pitchfork you should at least give the team a week or even 5 days. The team cant instantly fire someone they have to decide if it is justified or not. Team"We are looking into this claims" Doesn't seems it takes a week to do this. Especially when this is a pattern of behavior, and one that started BEFORE he even joined the team. They can't claim ignorance on this one. The funny thing is that this raises the question of why the people who emailed the sponsors waited for a public drama thread rather than emailin right after Quantic signed destiny. If their excuse for the question of why they didn't give Quantic even 5 days to respond is "well Quantic already knew his behavior so what's gonna change now", then surely they would have emailed Razer right when quantic signed destiny, right? After all it's not like Quantic or destiny were going to change their ways down the line. But of course it wasn't until drama erupted that they got "outraged", because they're not really standin up for racial equality, they just are getting something out of fueling the flames of some drama.
Exactly. Anyone have an answer for this?
You guys disgust me. I'm not even joking or exaggerating; I had faith that Starcraft 2 could grow beyond what it is now before this happened. Because of this incident, I'm sure it will remain in the background. Never to be on ESPN, never to cross into the mainstream in any way. It's a shame that you people can't see past your blind hatred and learn to see the big picture.
|
By the way, No, you can't fire someone for being a racist, just like you can't fire someone for being black, asian, woman, gay, straight, bi, handicapped, atheist, muslim, christian, rastafarian, blind, etc... That is called intolerance and frowned upon by our government.
This is completely untrue. By "our" government, I assume you mean the United States. While you are not allowed to be imprisoned, fined, etc, by the government, you can absolutely be fired for making any type of offensive comment. Just last month Ozzie Guillen was suspended for essentially saying he thinks Fidel Castro was a great leader; if he hadn't immediately apologized, he would have been fired.
Every business has the right to fire an employee if the employee is having a negative impact on their company. Thus, if X sc2 player/caster does something that makes sc2 fans want to cease supporting the team/sponsors that X sc2 player/caster is employed by, then X sc2 player/caster should, and will, be fired. It's a business; if you harm the business more than you help it, you get fired.
|
On May 08 2012 04:34 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 03:42 HorsemasterK wrote:On May 08 2012 03:41 windsupernova wrote:On May 08 2012 03:39 gogatorsfoster wrote:On May 08 2012 03:32 Terrafros wrote:
Naniwa's case went too far.
Orb's case went too far.
Destiny's case was proper.
In the first two, the team was not contacted. In the third, it was. If a team chooses not to listen to the fans, then they can go to the sponsors instead. This was not a case of immediate contact with the sponsors, Quantic chose to ignore the complaints about Destiny's behaviour, and thus, their sponsors got involved. A lot of people keep saying that quantic did nothing, the whole ordeal happened over the course of 3 days max. And you can bet people didnt wait to e-mail sponsors in the first place. I feel like if you really feel the need to pitchfork you should at least give the team a week or even 5 days. The team cant instantly fire someone they have to decide if it is justified or not. Team"We are looking into this claims" Doesn't seems it takes a week to do this. Especially when this is a pattern of behavior, and one that started BEFORE he even joined the team. They can't claim ignorance on this one. The funny thing is that this raises the question of why the people who emailed the sponsors waited for a public drama thread rather than emailin right after Quantic signed destiny. If their excuse for the question of why they didn't give Quantic even 5 days to respond is "well Quantic already knew his behavior so what's gonna change now", then surely they would have emailed Razer right when quantic signed destiny, right? After all it's not like Quantic or destiny were going to change their ways down the line. But of course it wasn't until drama erupted that they got "outraged", because they're not really standin up for racial equality, they just are getting something out of fueling the flames of some drama.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_that_broke_the_camel's_back
People weren't just willing to stand that kind of behavior anymore? Especially now that he was sponsored?
It isn't really that hard.....
E: But sure feel free to keep pretending that there are no legit explanations other than :"ZOMG the drama/Mob mentality/Ego issues"
|
On May 08 2012 03:53 crocodile wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 03:50 HorsemasterK wrote:On May 08 2012 03:48 crocodile wrote:On May 08 2012 03:44 Fubi wrote:On May 08 2012 03:29 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 03:26 Fubi wrote:On May 08 2012 03:21 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 03:03 Govou wrote:On May 08 2012 02:56 Dosey wrote:On May 08 2012 02:50 windsupernova wrote:
[quote]
Because going to the sponsor is the only real way we have to really pressure a team over an issue?
So the threat to report them to a sponsor wouldn't work? How so? They obviously know you are serious. Fact is, if it is solved internally after your initial threat, there is no major backlash and you dont feel the importance that you feel now. All eyes are on you and your ilk because you had a hand in the current incident. You now feel important. If you send a quiet e-mail to quantic about Destiny and he is barred from the next event and doesnt stream for a month... people just assume he went MIA. You can't come to the forums and announce "IT WAS ME MUAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAH I SHUT DOWN THAT IGNORANT PRICK I DID IT IT WAS MEEEEEEEEE" your whole argument is wrong because you believe people do this to feel they are important. please try again Then at least try to answer the simple question I have asked multiple times with no valid answer. Why not report it to the team with your threats and demand a response? Why go directly to the sponsors? And for the one who said "How do you know that we didn't go to the team first?" Are you blind? The proof is everywhere. eG was BLINDSIDED by this and that is fact. The quantic manager himself has posted in this thread stating they should have came to him first and not gone to the sponsors. Another situation proving they went around the team directly toward the sponsor. Because sponsors are the ones that are directly paying them. Also, this helps to make sure teams be more careful in the future when picking players; shouldn't simply pick players just because they are popular, as some of the popularity could of came from being infamous. Either way, the people had every rights to do so. So it boils down to the fact that you didn't want such a person employed. You wanted his career ended because he is such a racist piece of shit? You wanted to teach their team a lesson by putting the entire team at risk for one persons mistake? "They lose their livelihood if they dont comply, THAT oughta teach them!!!" Makes sense :roll: Yes, it boils down to the fact that people didn't want such a racist person employed. They didn't want a "racist piece of shit" getting paid to be racist. And they wanted to teach teams a lesson so that in the future, they are clean of such racism within our e-sport community. Yes, you are correct. So what's the problem? The problem is that you're killing e-sports. If you don't have a problem with that, there's nothing to discuss other than that you're a piece of shit and nobody wants you in our community. call the whaaaambulance. esports is killed on a daily basis, and somehow manages to revive itself. If you think esports can't persist without racist/homophobic/sexist language, I feel really bad for you. E-Sports can't persist if every time someone makes a racist/homophobic/sexist comment, somebody calls up the sponsors. If you can't understand that, you've got a severe mental handicap.
You don't think this happens in this day and age with any other public figure in sports? Maybe the mob is to quick to respond. Give the organization time to react. ESPN writer was let go the next day for his Lin comment. You think if he kept his job that people would not first complain to ESPN, then to their sponsors? Glenn Beck lost all his sponsors over racist remarks, do we know if mob of people complained? Or simply sponsors do not want to be associated with this.
|
As my father always says, "The higher the monkey climbs up the flagpole, the more people wanna shoot at it."
|
On May 08 2012 04:21 Dosey wrote:
By the way, No, you can't fire someone for being a racist, just like you can't fire someone for being black, asian, woman, gay, straight, bi, handicapped, atheist, muslim, christian, rastafarian, blind, etc... That is called intolerance and frowned upon by our government. Yes, you can be fired for inappropriate language in a normal work environment, but that is another silly notion considering the number of F-bombs dropped by even the friendliest of our community pillars, Day[9]. So, the argument of "inappropriate language in a normal workplace gets you fired" is null and void. So lets just go on and scoop that out the window as well.
Well yes, turns out you can. Since being a racist includes expression of thoughts that show that you depreciate other human beings, this is definately a reason to get fired. That's why racism is not protected by freedom of speech.
|
Wow, I wrote a really awesome reply explaining my position on this in detail, and the browser didn't post properly, or I wasn't logged in or something, anyhow.... what I say here are my own views as a custodian of this community and it's future, not as a business leader and should not be viewed as an official position of Quantic Gaming - because we didn't make one, remember - that wasn't by accident. I have nothing to gain by sharing my personal perspective, but I hope that perhaps some of you might:
It's required that you speak directly with the player before making a statement of any kind. Unable to reach him until later than evening, and because TL did not close the forum post for the benefit of everyone involved, the sponsor calling and emails and brand bashing campaign were already well underway by then - the damage was done - making any sort of statement at that point would have only prolonged and increased the severity of the damage report. Bottom line - when people you work with at sponsors are being tapped in the shoulder by executive management they usually only know by name and title, about tickets/emails/calls from people talking about Hitler - people's jobs are on the line. Steven did all there was left to do by leaving the team willingly and respectfully. I respect and support his decision, and will miss working with him, because his antics aside, almost every pro player out there, aside from maybe White-Ra, could learn something from Steven about serving fans and building brands. Steven has done more direct community engagement for charitable causes than any other single player in the scene, and has always given of himself for fans, even for his critics. To assert that we shouldn't have provided him an opportunity to grow as a player and as a professional, when he expressed a clear desire to be taken more seriously in both, is a dramatic oversimplification of things that is mis-guided, cruel, and unfair. While I disagree with his using discriminatory language, Steven, in spite of his inner rage getting the best of him at times, may be full of a lot of things, but hate isn't one of them.
|
On May 08 2012 04:38 crocodile wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 04:34 Doodsmack wrote:On May 08 2012 03:42 HorsemasterK wrote:On May 08 2012 03:41 windsupernova wrote:On May 08 2012 03:39 gogatorsfoster wrote:On May 08 2012 03:32 Terrafros wrote:
Naniwa's case went too far.
Orb's case went too far.
Destiny's case was proper.
In the first two, the team was not contacted. In the third, it was. If a team chooses not to listen to the fans, then they can go to the sponsors instead. This was not a case of immediate contact with the sponsors, Quantic chose to ignore the complaints about Destiny's behaviour, and thus, their sponsors got involved. A lot of people keep saying that quantic did nothing, the whole ordeal happened over the course of 3 days max. And you can bet people didnt wait to e-mail sponsors in the first place. I feel like if you really feel the need to pitchfork you should at least give the team a week or even 5 days. The team cant instantly fire someone they have to decide if it is justified or not. Team"We are looking into this claims" Doesn't seems it takes a week to do this. Especially when this is a pattern of behavior, and one that started BEFORE he even joined the team. They can't claim ignorance on this one. The funny thing is that this raises the question of why the people who emailed the sponsors waited for a public drama thread rather than emailin right after Quantic signed destiny. If their excuse for the question of why they didn't give Quantic even 5 days to respond is "well Quantic already knew his behavior so what's gonna change now", then surely they would have emailed Razer right when quantic signed destiny, right? After all it's not like Quantic or destiny were going to change their ways down the line. But of course it wasn't until drama erupted that they got "outraged", because they're not really standin up for racial equality, they just are getting something out of fueling the flames of some drama. Exactly. Anyone have an answer for this? You guys disgust me. I'm not even joking or exaggerating; I had faith that Starcraft 2 could grow beyond what it is now before this happened. Because of this incident, I'm sure it will remain in the background. Never to be on ESPN, never to cross into the mainstream in any way. It's a shame that you people can't see past your blind hatred and learn to see the big picture. Quite the opposite actually. It's people like YOU that disgust us. E-sport can NOT grow with professional players being racists left and right in public and with supporter like you telling others to "shut up and just don't watch if you don't like the racism". As been said, no other professional sports or entertainment industries have their players/employees sprouting racist comments in public, and neither should E-sport if it truly wants to be as big as the other industries.
|
On May 08 2012 04:39 Akash1223 wrote:Show nested quote +
By the way, No, you can't fire someone for being a racist, just like you can't fire someone for being black, asian, woman, gay, straight, bi, handicapped, atheist, muslim, christian, rastafarian, blind, etc... That is called intolerance and frowned upon by our government.
Just last month Ozzie Guillen was suspended for essentially saying he thinks Fidel Castro was a great leader; if he hadn't immediately apologized, he would have been fired.
Yeah that's... not really the way the rest of the world works. Somebody was suspended and almost fired because of an opinion of his? That's not right.
|
On May 08 2012 04:44 hegeo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 04:21 Dosey wrote:
By the way, No, you can't fire someone for being a racist, just like you can't fire someone for being black, asian, woman, gay, straight, bi, handicapped, atheist, muslim, christian, rastafarian, blind, etc... That is called intolerance and frowned upon by our government. Yes, you can be fired for inappropriate language in a normal work environment, but that is another silly notion considering the number of F-bombs dropped by even the friendliest of our community pillars, Day[9]. So, the argument of "inappropriate language in a normal workplace gets you fired" is null and void. So lets just go on and scoop that out the window as well.
Well yes, turns out you can. Since being a racist includes expression of thoughts that show that you depreciate other human beings, this is definately a reason to get fired. That's why racism is not protected by freedom of speech.
Beyond that, people do not seem to realize that freedom of speech gives you a right to not be prosecuted for your speech by the government. It does not give you the right to be free from consequences from your employer or any other non-government entity.
|
On May 08 2012 04:44 QuanticCinergy wrote:
Wow, I wrote a really awesome reply explaining my position on this in detail, and the browser didn't post properly, or I wasn't logged in or something, anyhow.... what I say here are my own views as a custodian of this community and it's future, not as a business leader and should not be viewed as an official position of Quantic Gaming - because we didn't make one, remember - that wasn't by accident. I have nothing to gain by sharing my personal perspective, but I hope that perhaps some of you might:
It's required that you speak directly with the player before making a statement of any kind. Unable to reach him until later than evening, and because TL did not close the forum post for the benefit of everyone involved, the sponsor calling and emails and brand bashing campaign were already well underway by then - the damage was done - making any sort of statement at that point would have only prolonged and increased the severity of the damage report. Bottom line - when people you work with at sponsors are being tapped in the shoulder by executive management they usually only know by name and title, about tickets/emails/calls from people talking about Hitler - people's jobs are on the line. Steven did all there was left to do by leaving the team willingly and respectfully. I respect and support his decision, and will miss working with him, because his antics aside, almost every pro player out there, aside from maybe White-Ra, could learn something from Steven about serving fans and building brands. Steven has done more direct community engagement for charitable causes than any other single player in the scene, and has always given of himself for fans, even for his critics. To assert that we shouldn't have provided him an opportunity to grow as a player and as a professional, when he expressed a clear desire to be taken more seriously in both, is a dramatic oversimplification of things that is mis-guided, cruel, and unfair. While I disagree with his using discriminatory language, Steven, in spite of his inner rage getting the best of him at times, may be full of a lot of things, but hate isn't one of them.
Why not respond with a simple..."we know about this thread, we'll talk with the people involved"?
That should at least buy you guys some time no? If people feel that their concerns are not being responded they will go to a higher instance.Hell Destiny had time to respond to the thread to say he doesn't give a ****. Why couldn't you guys take 5 minutes to at least appease the crowd?
|
On May 08 2012 04:44 Fubi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 04:38 crocodile wrote:On May 08 2012 04:34 Doodsmack wrote:On May 08 2012 03:42 HorsemasterK wrote:On May 08 2012 03:41 windsupernova wrote:On May 08 2012 03:39 gogatorsfoster wrote:On May 08 2012 03:32 Terrafros wrote:
Naniwa's case went too far.
Orb's case went too far.
Destiny's case was proper.
In the first two, the team was not contacted. In the third, it was. If a team chooses not to listen to the fans, then they can go to the sponsors instead. This was not a case of immediate contact with the sponsors, Quantic chose to ignore the complaints about Destiny's behaviour, and thus, their sponsors got involved. A lot of people keep saying that quantic did nothing, the whole ordeal happened over the course of 3 days max. And you can bet people didnt wait to e-mail sponsors in the first place. I feel like if you really feel the need to pitchfork you should at least give the team a week or even 5 days. The team cant instantly fire someone they have to decide if it is justified or not. Team"We are looking into this claims" Doesn't seems it takes a week to do this. Especially when this is a pattern of behavior, and one that started BEFORE he even joined the team. They can't claim ignorance on this one. The funny thing is that this raises the question of why the people who emailed the sponsors waited for a public drama thread rather than emailin right after Quantic signed destiny. If their excuse for the question of why they didn't give Quantic even 5 days to respond is "well Quantic already knew his behavior so what's gonna change now", then surely they would have emailed Razer right when quantic signed destiny, right? After all it's not like Quantic or destiny were going to change their ways down the line. But of course it wasn't until drama erupted that they got "outraged", because they're not really standin up for racial equality, they just are getting something out of fueling the flames of some drama. Exactly. Anyone have an answer for this? You guys disgust me. I'm not even joking or exaggerating; I had faith that Starcraft 2 could grow beyond what it is now before this happened. Because of this incident, I'm sure it will remain in the background. Never to be on ESPN, never to cross into the mainstream in any way. It's a shame that you people can't see past your blind hatred and learn to see the big picture. Quite the opposite actually. It's people like YOU that disgust us. E-sport can NOT grow with professional players being racists left and right in public and with supporter like you telling others to "shut up and just don't watch if you don't like the racism". As been said, no other professional sports or entertainment industries have their players/employees sprouting racist comments in public, and neither should E-sport if it truly wants to be as big as the other industries.
Did I miss something? I thought Destiny used one racial term on the ladder.
Was there a part afterwards or something?
|
I don't think #2 and #3 are overreactions at all.
Racism has no place here.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
