|
On July 11 2011 23:34 Raisauce wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 23:29 Novalisk wrote:On July 11 2011 23:06 JAN0L wrote:
The main problem with watching any game of this type is the amount of knowledge you need to have to be able to understand whats going on. you basically need to know skills of all the heroes that are in the game, probably also items. There is no way the casters will be able to provide that knowledge in fast and accessible way to people unfamiliar with the game. I played DotA for 3 years and only now i got to know that Lich's ulti ministuns or that you can remove Rexar's stun by casting omniknight's repel(but not prevent it). I agree with this, and it's the main reason LoL won't be able to touch SC2 in terms of broad audience appeal. LoL has the potential to pull in huge numbers. It may be tough to understand for people who don't play the game, but since its free there's a large fanbase. Look at dreamhack for example, didn't it pull in like 100k viewers?
...and a week after DH, fnatic (DH winner) played vs SK gaming (top5 team or so) in some ESL playoff match and they had 2k viewers...(why so low?) Their advertising ingame is the only reason it's so big, imo.
Edit: and that they pay tournaments for using thier games ofc.!
|
|
|
On July 12 2011 18:02 Tomken wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 23:34 Raisauce wrote:On July 11 2011 23:29 Novalisk wrote:On July 11 2011 23:06 JAN0L wrote:
The main problem with watching any game of this type is the amount of knowledge you need to have to be able to understand whats going on. you basically need to know skills of all the heroes that are in the game, probably also items. There is no way the casters will be able to provide that knowledge in fast and accessible way to people unfamiliar with the game. I played DotA for 3 years and only now i got to know that Lich's ulti ministuns or that you can remove Rexar's stun by casting omniknight's repel(but not prevent it). I agree with this, and it's the main reason LoL won't be able to touch SC2 in terms of broad audience appeal. LoL has the potential to pull in huge numbers. It may be tough to understand for people who don't play the game, but since its free there's a large fanbase. Look at dreamhack for example, didn't it pull in like 100k viewers? ...and a week after DH, fnatic (DH winner) played vs SK gaming (top5 team or so) in some ESL playoff match and they had 2k viewers...(why so low?) Their advertising ingame is the only reason it's so big, imo. Edit: and that they pay tournaments for using thier games ofc.!
Let me tell you, from my experience playing in various ESL events in DotA and seeing the SC2/LoL stuff going on there, ESL is _the worst_ organization from a spectator standpoint. They have no clear schedules, it requires like 50 clicks to find brackets for any given event, their streams aren't labeled appropriately, and (most importantly in this case) their stream isn't advertised on CLG or Solomid. That's like a SC2 tournament not being on the TL calendar. Believe me, I would watch a lot more ESL matches if I knew when they were going to be on. The numbers for most other matches, including NESL and random scrims, are way way higher (I've seen the NESL stream with 40k viewers when CLG is playing).
|
I can't stand watching this game, after about 20 minutes I begin to fall asleep but the more PC games in MLG the better I say! I support it!
|
On July 11 2011 22:35 MegaManEXE wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 22:25 Am0n3r wrote:
Its constant 30k+ And finding a match takes much shorter time in HoN than in LoL This isn't true at all unless you're 2k+ elo in LoL, which very few people are For the average person you can find a game in 20 seconds or less usually I was playing HoN while the LoL servers were down the other day and queue time took me a minute and a half to two minutes each time.
Dumb thing to argue about but a friend of mine asked me to play some lol and we sat through probably 20 minutes of people canceling games before we were able to get in one.
|
On July 12 2011 18:59 JohnQPublic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 22:35 MegaManEXE wrote:On July 11 2011 22:25 Am0n3r wrote:
Its constant 30k+ And finding a match takes much shorter time in HoN than in LoL This isn't true at all unless you're 2k+ elo in LoL, which very few people are For the average person you can find a game in 20 seconds or less usually I was playing HoN while the LoL servers were down the other day and queue time took me a minute and a half to two minutes each time. Dumb thing to argue about but a friend of mine asked me to play some lol and we sat through probably 20 minutes of people canceling games before we were able to get in one.
20 minutes sounds a bit like hyperbole =\ I get maybe two cancels at most in a row. I've seen three once. Yep.
The queues are higher when you're queuing with four or more people, and at the wee hours three people queued together can take a while as well, but otherwise it's usually under a minute, and instant if someone cancelled character select (putting you back in the queue at the front.)
That's grasping for straws, though. Tournament-wise I think it's got a ton of potential. Like I said, I personally found it quite entertaining to watch, it doesn't really have balance issues when you factor-in the champion selection, and besides the fact has a huge player-base to gain followers and watchers from. Yea, it's not perfect -- like any game -- but what needs work can be fixed or built-upon.
I can't believe people still actually use Riot's PROMOTION of the tournament and eSports as a reason it's sucessful. I'm sorry, what?
|
On July 12 2011 18:02 Tomken wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 23:34 Raisauce wrote:On July 11 2011 23:29 Novalisk wrote:On July 11 2011 23:06 JAN0L wrote:
The main problem with watching any game of this type is the amount of knowledge you need to have to be able to understand whats going on. you basically need to know skills of all the heroes that are in the game, probably also items. There is no way the casters will be able to provide that knowledge in fast and accessible way to people unfamiliar with the game. I played DotA for 3 years and only now i got to know that Lich's ulti ministuns or that you can remove Rexar's stun by casting omniknight's repel(but not prevent it). I agree with this, and it's the main reason LoL won't be able to touch SC2 in terms of broad audience appeal. LoL has the potential to pull in huge numbers. It may be tough to understand for people who don't play the game, but since its free there's a large fanbase. Look at dreamhack for example, didn't it pull in like 100k viewers? ...and a week after DH, fnatic (DH winner) played vs SK gaming (top5 team or so) in some ESL playoff match and they had 2k viewers...(why so low?) Their advertising ingame is the only reason it's so big, imo. Edit: and that they pay tournaments for using thier games ofc.!
Nah, ESL just has terrible scheduling/website which makes viewer counts for their events really low. If you compare LoL streams to sc2 streams, the viewer counts are pretty similar. Top LoL streamers get about the same amount as top sc2 streamers and the viewer count hit 200k for DH, which is pretty damn impressive.
|
On July 12 2011 19:42 Cedstick wrote:
I can't believe people still actually use Riot's PROMOTION of the tournament and eSports as a reason it's sucessful. I'm sorry, what?
"Don't buy this product, it's got TV commercials! The company that produces it wants it to succeed!"
I wonder how far SC2 would have gotten without sites like TL, and Blizzard helping to sponsor and assist all these big tournaments. Nowhere near where it is now, that's for damn sure. Riot is the best-run gaming company to start up in a very long time, nobody should deride their efforts to bring LoL (and all of eSports) into the mainstream.
|
On July 12 2011 19:49 Cel.erity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2011 19:42 Cedstick wrote:
I can't believe people still actually use Riot's PROMOTION of the tournament and eSports as a reason it's sucessful. I'm sorry, what? "Don't buy this product, it's got TV commercials! The company that produces it wants it to succeed!" I wonder how far SC2 would have gotten without sites like TL, and Blizzard helping to sponsor and assist all these big tournaments. Nowhere near where it is now, that's for damn sure. Riot is the best-run gaming company to start up in a very long time, nobody should deride their efforts to bring LoL (and all of eSports) into the mainstream.
Woah, woah, woah! Don't hate on him for pointing out that it hasn't yet succeeded. I don't see any criticism of RIOT promoting their game in that quote. He just pointed out that it hasn't succeeded yet. The event hasn't happened yet, so... yeah. I don't see how you have a problem with that... Chill out.
|
So Riot bought their way into another tournament eh?
|
I have no problem with the game mechanics aside from "A goes to kill the dragon, gets ganked and B kills the dragon". People keep arguing about which game is more fun to watch, which game is more difficult to play but my main problem is which game is visually more understandable.
I can watch any MOBA and I could overcome that I hate the art style of LoL, but look at the team fights. It's a clusterf**k of spell effects. The fact that I can stand next to somebody and my health bar will be covered by his, that Cho can prevent me from targeting even 2 heroes behind him, that's just detrimental to the targeting and it makes the fights really hectic.
Look at any MMORPG, the first thing a hardcore player does is getting the best UI mod possible. I don't see that in LoL, at least not in LoL broadcasts and it tells me that the people involved don't think about it "the right way", they're missing this crucial aspect. Once I can watch/play LoL without the effects overload, UI and overlapping problems we can start talking about which game has better gameplay. If this is about viewers then make it “watchable”.
|
On July 12 2011 17:43 coZen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2011 17:33 dbddbddb wrote:On July 12 2011 17:25 Mente wrote:
How did LoL get picked up and not HoN? probably because HoN isn as popular i think its an issue of balance. Im not entirely sure of how balance LoL is, but I am certain that Hon is nowhere near balanced enough to provide a fair competitive scene. Sure, it does have some support in the competitive scene, but with S2 just pumping out heroes and not really worrying about balance until the community cries over it, the competitive scene for Hon is very distant. Hopefully dota2 will take both aspects of hon and LoL to become a competitive powerhouse like dota was in the past.
League of Legends is no more balanced for competitive play, I don't know if I'd say HoN is much more balanced, particularly with the addition of some newer heroes, but I can certainly tell you that balance would not be a reason to choose League of Legends over HoN. The pumping out of champions, is something that Riot has been guilty off just as much if not more, and they don't maintain decent stable competitive versions, at Dreamhack, champions as little as two weeks old were allowed and you saw them in an overwhelming amount of games, champions such as Vayne.
The selection of LoL is based entirely around popularity in my opinion, much like the inclusion of Black Ops. I highly doubt it has anything to do with balance or competitive value at the moment.
|
"We want E-sports to grow!", but when some other game got double the viewers that sc2 has, rage and diss steps in... srsly, it's ok to not like things, but dont be a dick about it...
|
On July 12 2011 22:22 Zax19 wrote:I have no problem with the game mechanics aside from "A goes to kill the dragon, gets ganked and B kills the dragon". People keep arguing about which game is more fun to watch, which game is more difficult to play but my main problem is which game is visually more understandable. I can watch any MOBA and I could overcome that I hate the art style of LoL, but look at the team fights. It's a clusterf**k of spell effects. The fact that I can stand next to somebody and my health bar will be covered by his, that Cho can prevent me from targeting even 2 heroes behind him, that's just detrimental to the targeting and it makes the fights really hectic. Look at any MMORPG, the first thing a hardcore player does is getting the best UI mod possible. I don't see that in LoL, at least not in LoL broadcasts and it tells me that the people involved don't think about it "the right way", they're missing this crucial aspect. Once I can watch/play LoL without the effects overload, UI and overlapping problems we can start talking about which game has better gameplay. If this is about viewers then make it “watchable”.
Yea, one important fix is something to the UI or graphics regarding big team battles. I don't mind a burst of animations, but when it's hard to even understand YOUR place in a team battle, there's a problem. That is something they need to look at.
|
See, I thought that with LoL's addition of things like Red and Green AoE circles for friend/foe effects made it a lot more visually understandable than DotA was, from a learning perspective. Their observer functions seem to kinda... mess this up. Likewise, health bars denoting health in batches of 100 makes it really clear whats going on when one champion is low and the other is not, for example allowing you to snap judge the difference between a tank at half health compared to a support at near full but having less total HP.
And Cho being so big and fat and making it hard to target his teammates is a feature!
IMO what riot really needs to do is get their observer mode released, FFS. Clearly it's working, and the version we saw at DreamHack was actually quite good, with key information easily viewable and understandable. Their tournament scene would explode if their community could host and run watchable tournaments.
|
Well, as I've already said - let me target anyone I want (heroes should have collision size, no stacking in one place) and see all the health bars. Then it's my fault if I target an injured hero and Cho gets in the line of fire. This is an opportunity for mistakes and good saves. Making me simply unable to see somebody because there is a bigger hero in the same spot is stupid.
I agree there are many features making it easy like the health batches but the above mentioned problem has been sooo frustrating for me I can't really appreciate the good things and all I want is a new UI.
|
Wow, great :D now more stream I can watch, and wither away on my computer for a weekend :D awesome!!!!
|
On July 12 2011 18:02 Tomken wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 23:34 Raisauce wrote:On July 11 2011 23:29 Novalisk wrote:On July 11 2011 23:06 JAN0L wrote:
The main problem with watching any game of this type is the amount of knowledge you need to have to be able to understand whats going on. you basically need to know skills of all the heroes that are in the game, probably also items. There is no way the casters will be able to provide that knowledge in fast and accessible way to people unfamiliar with the game. I played DotA for 3 years and only now i got to know that Lich's ulti ministuns or that you can remove Rexar's stun by casting omniknight's repel(but not prevent it). I agree with this, and it's the main reason LoL won't be able to touch SC2 in terms of broad audience appeal. LoL has the potential to pull in huge numbers. It may be tough to understand for people who don't play the game, but since its free there's a large fanbase. Look at dreamhack for example, didn't it pull in like 100k viewers? ...and a week after DH, fnatic (DH winner) played vs SK gaming (top5 team or so) in some ESL playoff match and they had 2k viewers...(why so low?) Their advertising ingame is the only reason it's so big, imo. Edit: and that they pay tournaments for using thier games ofc.!
Riot streams almost everyday and have 10k viewers at least at the same time that some of the top players who stream each have 7k+. DH vs SK was not posted anywhere as they played the match during the live server downtime.
Imagine if LoL had a community like TL so everybody could conveniently see the scheduling for almost every high level game being casted under the sun. The closest league has is clgaming.net.
League pulls huge numbers with less "advertising" if you will than SC2 itself.
P.S, tournaments have to pay companies for the license to host their games. In the case of Dreamhack riot payed the bills to run the tourney, but I doubt they payed DH just to let them have it there. If you think they are paying MLG you are so wrong.
|
On July 12 2011 23:19 sylverfyre wrote:
See, I thought that with LoL's addition of things like Red and Green AoE circles for friend/foe effects made it a lot more visually understandable than DotA was, from a learning perspective. Their observer functions seem to kinda... mess this up. Likewise, health bars denoting health in batches of 100 makes it really clear whats going on when one champion is low and the other is not, for example allowing you to snap judge the difference between a tank at half health compared to a support at near full but having less total HP.
And Cho being so big and fat and making it hard to target his teammates is a feature!
IMO what riot really needs to do is get their observer mode released, FFS. Clearly it's working, and the version we saw at DreamHack was actually quite good, with key information easily viewable and understandable. Their tournament scene would explode if their community could host and run watchable tournaments.
Its alot easiwer to watch than Dota/Hon imo. more understandable too.
And fuck yeah League!
|
On July 12 2011 20:29 Ninety-Three wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2011 19:49 Cel.erity wrote:On July 12 2011 19:42 Cedstick wrote:
I can't believe people still actually use Riot's PROMOTION of the tournament and eSports as a reason it's sucessful. I'm sorry, what? "Don't buy this product, it's got TV commercials! The company that produces it wants it to succeed!" I wonder how far SC2 would have gotten without sites like TL, and Blizzard helping to sponsor and assist all these big tournaments. Nowhere near where it is now, that's for damn sure. Riot is the best-run gaming company to start up in a very long time, nobody should deride their efforts to bring LoL (and all of eSports) into the mainstream. Woah, woah, woah! Don't hate on him for pointing out that it hasn't yet succeeded. I don't see any criticism of RIOT promoting their game in that quote. He just pointed out that it hasn't succeeded yet. The event hasn't happened yet, so... yeah. I don't see how you have a problem with that... Chill out.
I quoted it because I agreed with him. Should have been obvious since we said the exact same thing?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
